US Forces burn Koran at Bagram

 Pages 1 2 3 NEXT
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17116595

US Defence Secretary Leon Panetta has apologised to the Afghan people for an incident in which copies of the Koran were reportedly burned.

Mr Panetta said the US military respected the religious practices of the Afghan people "without exception".

The Nato commander in Afghanistan, US Gen John R Allen, has already announced an inquiry into the incident.

Reports suggest the US had confiscated materials that they suspected Taliban prisoners were using to send messages.

What I find interesting is that last sentence there of the article snippet. In either case, you'd think American forces would hesitate to burn or do anything untoward with a Koran over there, given that 24 people died last year over that one Florida preacher burning them.

Burning a symbol is always nasty business. Nasty nasty. But that's mostly because people don't understand that even if you burn a flag, a book, a whatever, the thing it symbolizes remains unaffected. Usually. I mean if it's people burning their own symbols, then things sometimes start to change, but burning someone else's is simply pushing it into the "let's see what we can get away with" waters, and thus a rather stupid thing to do. And as all stupid things, bring the hammer down upon them.

Not because they burned a book, but because they were stupid.

I saw this story at 12pm local and just...

image

That was my reaction...

The books were confiscated from detainee's in prison cells and the troops thought that they were being used as a means of communicating. Therefore they wanted to dispose of them... and the dumb shit troopers decided to burn them.

They will hold an inquiry, a few dumb cunts will get demoted and now everyone will be briefed that you blood well respect their holy book...

6 months to 2 years hard work in relations building... fucking thrown away the bloody idiots...

You would think that if they suspected the books were being used to for communication they would take a proper look at them, then preserve them in case they want to double check or whatever. But no. Burning them was the obvious way to take.

Of course the Korans were being used to smuggle messages! They were filled with writing in some strange code the prisoners called "Afgan".

This was an oversight and a foolish mistake. Were it any other book this wouldnt be an issue. At least nobody died this time in the protests over this. Yes it was stupid but if you actually read the article it makes sense why they were being burned along with other things that were being thrown out. People were just throwing stuff into the fire and nobody noticed the Korans until it was too late.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
You would think that if they suspected the books were being used to for communication they would take a proper look at them, then preserve them in case they want to double check or whatever. But no. Burning them was the obvious way to take.

Yeah. It's the equivalent of wiping a hard drive of a suspected mass rapist who you also suspect of having logged his "conquests" on said hard drive.

Burning the books just to be a prick and go "Hah! Whatcha gonna do about THAT!" is still considerably less stupid, as scary as that thought is...

In other words, nice job breaking it, heroes.

Seekster:
People were just throwing stuff into the fire and nobody noticed the Korans until it was too late.

Nobody except members of the Afgan forces they are training who then saved the semi-scourched holy texts and then showed them to the people outside... BBC got footage of that...

And the enormous irony is... burning is a very respectful way of getting rid of unneeded Holy Scripture.

Scriptures in general;

In all cases, scriptures, sacred writings and religious items should be handled and
approached with respect, courtesy and humility:
The most common means of disposal is burning or burying or burning and then
burying.
http://humancond.org/_media/analysis/handling_and_disposal_of_religious_items.pdf

Muslims about 'disposing of Scripture';

Those books that are no longer wanted: One should wipe away the names of Allah, his Angels and His Messengers and burn the rest.

If the above-mentioned two methods are not possible to implement, only then will it be permitted to burn the Holy Scriptures and then bury the resulting ash or drop the ash in a flowing river.
http://www.inter-islam.org/Quran/disposingscripture.htm

i recently asked my frend about this and she sed just to burn it, didnt know about erasing the names first.
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?221340-how-to-dispose-of-islamic-literature-in-a-halal-manner

(Question:)For the pages I have already, does anyone know of a good way to dispose of them?
(First reply:)Burn them?
(Reply to reply:)yeah I was thinking this might be a good way...
(Other reply:)If you have pages with quran written over it like on wedding cards like bismillah irrehmaan iraaheem in arabic, rather burn it or rather tore it apart so that the letters do not combine and they do not form the word.
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?263825-Good-way-to-dispose-of-pages-with-Quran-on-it

Burning scriptures is a very respectful way to deal with unneeded scripture in general. It's advised for Islamic scripture too. Burning the Quran is also good, but preferably, you should erase all names of Allah, Muhammad and the other people with superpowers.

"Nice one, dickheads" seems to summarise my thoughts on the matter.

Further reading has done nothing to change that.

Comando96:

Seekster:
People were just throwing stuff into the fire and nobody noticed the Korans until it was too late.

Nobody except members of the Afgan forces they are training who then saved the semi-scourched holy texts and then showed them to the people outside... BBC got footage of that...

Yeah it was stupid oversight and it could have gotten people killed. Thank God nobody died in the protests over this.

Seekster:
Yeah it was stupid oversight and it could have gotten people killed. Thank God nobody died in the protests over this.

Well the bloody local cleric calling for all decent Muslims to sacrifice themselves in order to remove these Christian heretics dishonouring their land and holy texts... glad everyone around him wasn't so bloody foolish :)

Danyal:
Burning the Quran is also good, but preferably, you should erase all names of Allah, Muhammad and the other people with superpowers.

Fact:
Who burns the most USA flags in the world?
image
The USA...
They own the most, therefore they wear out the most, therefore must dispose of the most, therefore they dispose of them by burning them.

-

According to the BBC they were angry because the Qur'ans were not being disposed of in a respectful manner. So at a guess that would be because they didn't cross out all of the references to Allah, Muhammad etc. Enough for clerics to kick up a fuss and rouse up a mob.
Additionally they may require burning on their own or only among other Qur'ans and they were being burned along with other stuff so the association with disposal of unimportant objects is disrespectful... meh.

Some people--and I use the term loosely here--really oughta just grow up and stop raging and killing people over stupid shit.

If it was unintentional then that is just plain embarrassing.

evilneko:
Some people--and I use the term loosely here--really oughta just grow up and stop raging and killing people over stupid shit.

I wouldn't have phrased it quite like that, but I personally agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment. Then again it depends on what you define as "stupid shit", if you were a full on believer and you thought burning a holy book was tantamount to heresy or whatever, then I guess you wouldn't think it was stupid shit.

I've already got that sinking feeling like this is going to get worse.

Is burning confiscated material a common practice in the US military? Because this "accident" sounds suspiciously like those US marines who "didn't know" that the dual lightning bolts flag symbolized the SS.

evilneko:
Some people--and I use the term loosely here--really oughta just grow up and stop raging and killing people over stupid shit.

Yeah, they should just kill people for occupying their country for the past decade instead...

Danyal:
Burning scriptures is a very respectful way to deal with unneeded scripture in general. It's advised for Islamic scripture too. Burning the Quran is also good, but preferably, you should erase all names of Allah, Muhammad and the other people with superpowers.

There's a difference between tossing something in a fire with a bunch of random junk and burning it reverently. We recognize that difference with our own flag. I'm sure that they could have easily found an Imam to do it whatever right way there is.

In any case, I don't buy that this was a deliberate act, only carelessness. Burning a symbol deliberately is an act meant to be seen. People don't burn flags out in the woods, the Nazis didn't burn books behind closed doors, and that preacher didn't burn his Koran in the privacy of his own home. Someone was in a rush to clean out some stuff and didn't check it over.

Veylon:

Danyal:
Burning scriptures is a very respectful way to deal with unneeded scripture in general. It's advised for Islamic scripture too. Burning the Quran is also good, but preferably, you should erase all names of Allah, Muhammad and the other people with superpowers.

There's a difference between tossing something in a fire with a bunch of random junk and burning it reverently. We recognize that difference with our own flag. I'm sure that they could have easily found an Imam to do it whatever right way there is.

In any case, I don't buy that this was a deliberate act, only carelessness. Burning a symbol deliberately is an act meant to be seen. People don't burn flags out in the woods, the Nazis didn't burn books behind closed doors, and that preacher didn't burn his Koran in the privacy of his own home. Someone was in a rush to clean out some stuff and didn't check it over.

It could've been just some douchebag soldiers getting a kick out of burning the religious texts of their enemies though, like those other soldiers who pissed on the dead insurgents.

Knight Templar:
I've already got that sinking feeling like this is going to get worse.

And you're right. *Breaking news*, one hour ago;

Afghan protests get bloody over Quran burning

At least one person was killed and 21 wounded as protests swept the country, concentrated in the Afghan capital Kabul and the eastern city of Jalalabad, where a group of students set fire to an effigy of US President Barack Obama.

http://www.nst.com.my/top-news/afghan-protests-get-bloody-over-quran-burning-1.50405

Maybe, maybe, we should rethink our stance about the Islamic world. Maybe we should recognize that they're not all like us and that not only a few are 'extremist'. Maybe we should recognize that a lot of people there are very, very conservative and that they prefer Taliban over USA.

Imagine we went to the Middle Ages and bombed the Inquisition. Imagine we protected witches and heretics against murderous crowds. Would they like us and thank us for bringing progress and 'peace'? Don't think so.

We don't like war, they don't like us. Let's get out of there.

*sighs*
America..........
*sighs*
If you want the people there to not hate and murder you then it helps to not burn their holy books. You know what just happened?
People that the country hates(in your case let's say Russians) just came to your country and burned the consitution(whatever you big freedom rule thing everyone mentions then ignores is called).
That's what you just did. All those people who oppose you there are your patriots, all those terrorists and freedom fighters in their eyes.

This is why they hate you.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
You would think that if they suspected the books were being used to for communication they would take a proper look at them, then preserve them in case they want to double check or whatever. But no. Burning them was the obvious way to take.

There's really no point in doing so. Any information you can glean from prisoners will be gotten by professionals, not MPs. There isn't any trash service at a place like Bagram, so a lot of stuff ends up burning. When you confiscate material from prisoners you pretty much just toss it out.

Comando96:
Fact:
Who burns the most USA flags in the world?
image
The USA...
They own the most, therefore they wear out the most, therefore must dispose of the most, therefore they dispose of them by burning them.

I sometimes wonder where foreign protestors get all their US flags to burn from...must be a nice little earner for some people, though they might have to do some explaining if they were caught with lots of US flags.

Dandark:
*sighs*
America..........
*sighs*
If you want the people there to not hate and murder you then it helps to not burn their holy books. You know what just happened?
People that the country hates(in your case let's say Russians) just came to your country and burned the consitution(whatever you big freedom rule thing everyone mentions then ignores is called).
That's what you just did. All those people who oppose you there are your patriots, all those terrorists and freedom fighters in their eyes.

This is why they hate you.

I think the problem is 'Russians came to your country', not 'they burned a copy of the constitution'.

TheDarkEricDraven:
Of course the Korans were being used to smuggle messages! They were filled with writing in some strange code the prisoners called "Afgan".

Hey mate, next time you want to mock the ignorance of others, put in the effort to actually find out what the language is called, it adds credibility.

dyre:
Is burning confiscated material a common practice in the US military? Because this "accident" sounds suspiciously like those US marines who "didn't know" that the dual lightning bolts flag symbolized the SS.

evilneko:
Some people--and I use the term loosely here--really oughta just grow up and stop raging and killing people over stupid shit.

Yeah, they should just kill people for occupying their country for the past decade instead...

I love the fact that whenever afghanistan comes up, people immediately think that because they have read a few news reports they know the truth that the govt. doesn't want you to. Tip for young players, the taliban aren't fighting the people occupying 'their country' for two reasons. 1-the majority of active taliban fighters are actually...drumroll please.... foreigners, with those native Afghans fighting against ISAF being paid to fire a few rounds and ditch their weapons. Most of the ones who actually care about the fight are Pakistani, so it's not thier country.
2-The issue that they have is not that ISAF is there, but rather the influnce that the western ISAF forces are having on the poeple, they see it as a fight against immorality, not oppression.

Danyal:

Dandark:
*sighs*
America..........
*sighs*
If you want the people there to not hate and murder you then it helps to not burn their holy books. You know what just happened?
People that the country hates(in your case let's say Russians) just came to your country and burned the consitution(whatever you big freedom rule thing everyone mentions then ignores is called).
That's what you just did. All those people who oppose you there are your patriots, all those terrorists and freedom fighters in their eyes.

This is why they hate you.

I think the problem is 'Russians came to your country', not 'they burned a copy of the constitution'.

Yeah but im just hoping some of them will get the idea that the Koran is precious to them. Im under the impression most people seem to think of it as not mattering since "There religion is wrong!" or "All religion is wrong!" and therefore completely forget the value it has to them.
Just imagine what would happen if during the cold war, the Russian president came and burnt the constitution in America. There would be riots.

the clockmaker:
they have read a few news reports they know the truth that the govt. doesn't want you to. Tip for young players, the taliban aren't fighting the people occupying 'their country' for two reasons. 1-the majority of active taliban fighters are actually...drumroll please.... foreigners, with those native Afghans fighting against ISAF being paid to fire a few rounds and ditch their weapons. Most of the ones who actually care about the fight are Pakistani, so it's not thier country.

Depends who you are willing to label as "Taliban". If you include petty warlords looking to carve out their own territory, you could kinda maybe say they were fighting for their own country, they'd just continue doing that once all the foreigners left.

thaluikhain:

the clockmaker:
they have read a few news reports they know the truth that the govt. doesn't want you to. Tip for young players, the taliban aren't fighting the people occupying 'their country' for two reasons. 1-the majority of active taliban fighters are actually...drumroll please.... foreigners, with those native Afghans fighting against ISAF being paid to fire a few rounds and ditch their weapons. Most of the ones who actually care about the fight are Pakistani, so it's not thier country.

Depends who you are willing to label as "Taliban". If you include petty warlords looking to carve out their own territory, you could kinda maybe say they were fighting for their own country, they'd just continue doing that once all the foreigners left.

Taliban-fighters trying to restore or empower the former regieme, the Taliban.
most other fighters are local militia and they spend more time fighting each other than ISAF.

Dandark:

Danyal:

Dandark:
*sighs*
America..........
*sighs*
If you want the people there to not hate and murder you then it helps to not burn their holy books. You know what just happened?
People that the country hates(in your case let's say Russians) just came to your country and burned the consitution(whatever you big freedom rule thing everyone mentions then ignores is called).
That's what you just did. All those people who oppose you there are your patriots, all those terrorists and freedom fighters in their eyes.

This is why they hate you.

I think the problem is 'Russians came to your country', not 'they burned a copy of the constitution'.

Yeah but im just hoping some of them will get the idea that the Koran is precious to them. Im under the impression most people seem to think of it as not mattering since "There religion is wrong!" or "All religion is wrong!" and therefore completely forget the value it has to them.
Just imagine what would happen if during the cold war, the Russian president came and burnt the constitution in America. There would be riots.

What, the actual Constitution, the original one? Yeah, that thing is pretty valuable. Kinda different from some random guy's copy of the Koran. Burning some random guy's copy of the Constitution could maybe provoke a riot, I guess? We're not above rioting over stupid shit here in America.

Seekster:
This was an oversight and a foolish mistake. Were it any other book this wouldnt be an issue.

I would argue that were it any other book, it wouldn't have been burned by US soldiers.

Seanchaidh:

Dandark:

Danyal:

I think the problem is 'Russians came to your country', not 'they burned a copy of the constitution'.

Yeah but im just hoping some of them will get the idea that the Koran is precious to them. Im under the impression most people seem to think of it as not mattering since "There religion is wrong!" or "All religion is wrong!" and therefore completely forget the value it has to them.
Just imagine what would happen if during the cold war, the Russian president came and burnt the constitution in America. There would be riots.

What, the actual Constitution, the original one? Yeah, that thing is pretty valuable. Kinda different from some random guy's copy of the Koran. Burning some random guy's copy of the Constitution could maybe provoke a riot, I guess? We're not above rioting over stupid shit here in America.

No I just mean a copy of it. Im not too sure how valued it is over there but since a lot of Americans love to talk about their "freedom" and such I figured that it's the closest thing your country has to a holy text. I just imagine that there would be outrage and backlash in that situation.

Katatori-kun:

Seekster:
This was an oversight and a foolish mistake. Were it any other book this wouldnt be an issue.

I would argue that were it any other book, it wouldn't have been burned by US soldiers.

Well you would be wrong. Read the stories, they were clearing out stuff they had tossed out earlier. Heck they probably burned a few other books too that arent going to be reported on.

Also it seems 5 people have died because of this, how disgusting.

the clockmaker:
Taliban-fighters trying to restore or empower the former regieme, the Taliban.
most other fighters are local militia and they spend more time fighting each other than ISAF.

That is not true. The original Taliban asociated with that regime were crushed years ago.

Nowadays it's (mostly Pashtun) tribal fighters, and the various militias commanded by warlords and drug lords, with a bit of religious extremists from Pakistani madrassas thrown in. Only the latter category is really of the same type of motivation as the original Taliban.

To name one example: in the province where I was, Uruzgan, the governor was a henchman of Matiulah Khan, the local warlord who is good friends with Karzai. The Netherlands insisted he be removed from power, so M got pushed aside, but they still made his right hand man and cousin governor, Jan Mohammed Khan. The Netherlands insisted on this because M was involved in several atrocities. For instance he had a village council attacked, and 76 people were killed.

The 'Taliban' want him dead over that, and I can't say I blame them. They also wanted his cousin dead, and succeeded in 2011 when he was killed in a bombing.

Another example I got from a book from a diplomat stationed in the Baglam province a few years before. Nato troops arrested warlord Amir Gul, confiscating weapons, drugs and a car packed with explosives for a suicide bombing. Also they found a shipping container with meathooks in the ceiling, and traces of human blood on the floor. There had been rumour Gul tortured people in barbaric ways. The rumours were true.

Guess what? Few days later, Gul was a free man again. Karzai had interfered, and Gul was released.

Nice gesture towards the families of his victims. So what happens next is they take up arms and fight a blood feud like is normal there, they get labeled 'Taliban', and your tax money is used to fight them, while they have nothing to do with either the previous Taliban regime or the current movement looking to restore that theocracy.

thaluikhain:

Comando96:
Fact:
Who burns the most USA flags in the world?
image
The USA...
They own the most, therefore they wear out the most, therefore must dispose of the most, therefore they dispose of them by burning them.

I sometimes wonder where foreign protestors get all their US flags to burn from...must be a nice little earner for some people, though they might have to do some explaining if they were caught with lots of US flags.

For what its worth, I remember one 4th of July I was at a parade and they were handing out little American flags with a tag at the bottom that said "Made in China" (absolutely serious about that).

Danyal:
And the enormous irony is... burning is a very respectful way of getting rid of unneeded Holy Scripture.

Incorrect. By your own link only SOME religions believe this. Even for those, the way you do it matters.

Muslims about 'disposing of Scripture';

Those books that are no longer wanted: One should wipe away the names of Allah, his Angels and His Messengers and burn the rest.

If the above-mentioned two methods are not possible to implement, only then will it be permitted to burn the Holy Scriptures and then bury the resulting ash or drop the ash in a flowing river.

That doesn't apply to the Quran itself if you read a couple lines further on in your own link.

Kendarik:

Danyal:
And the enormous irony is... burning is a very respectful way of getting rid of unneeded Holy Scripture.

Incorrect. By your own link only SOME religions believe this. Even for those, the way you do it matters.

Muslims about 'disposing of Scripture';

Those books that are no longer wanted: One should wipe away the names of Allah, his Angels and His Messengers and burn the rest.

If the above-mentioned two methods are not possible to implement, only then will it be permitted to burn the Holy Scriptures and then bury the resulting ash or drop the ash in a flowing river.

As I said, 'Scriptures in general;'. And it's not 'some', it's most, or 'in general', and that's what I wrote.

If the Taliban are exchanging messages using Qurans, you prohibit those and you can burn the unneeded ones in a fire. They didn't organize a funeral with an orchestra and an imam, no. And they didn't take great care and removed the names of Those With Superpowers. Can you really blame them?

The true problem is the presence of non-Muslim American soldiers. As I said, even on Islamic forums people burn Qurans. That didn't cause a lot of protests, did it?

 Pages 1 2 3 NEXT

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked