Is space evil ?

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Jonluw:
I don't know if space is objectively evil, but it's certainly hostile.
It is quite apt at killing people, so even in the face of moral relativism I say we must realize that space is our enemy and fight it.

I'm still in favour of space exploration. It's a valuable tool for learning new methods for fighting space. Why would I blow up space stations due to my belief that space is our enemy? After all, space stations mark victories in our battle against space.

Eh. Space isn't nearly that bad, how many people has it actually killed? Compare that to mountains or rivers or deserts, we should be trying to destroy the environment here (as it, render it non existent, not reshape it) before trying to delete hard vacuum.

aPod:

Vegosiux:
I agree that black holes aren't evil or malicious though, they're just quirky.

Hey black hole! What are you doing!?

BH: *nomnomnomnom* Just eating a solar system *nomnomnomnom*

Oh black hole. *hand on hip, other wagging a finger, shaking head with a grin on face*

Yes, a "leave it to beaver" style sitcom came to mind when I read that.

Oh no you di'int, you crazy-ass gravitational singularity!

image

magicmonkeybars:

Ever hear of the Tower of Babel ?

Yes, we all have. It doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with outer space.

This isn't (surprisingly) a very uncommon concern, many (religious) people wouldn't relish an escape from earth by themselves or others.

Then please provide evidence for your claim.

Considering how many religious people are opposed to freedom

This is another claim that's going to need some pretty hefty evidence.

The only time I have ever heard of a religious group opposing space exploration, it has only been members of extremely liberal Christian groups. And these groups have opposed space exploration not because they think it is somehow immoral, but because they believe that the money spent on space exploration would be better used helping the poor and starving on our planet. These people also coincidentally are usually extremely devoted to pacifism as a fundamental aspect of their religion. They are as likely to attack a space elevator as they are to spontaneously sprout a second head that sings Klingon Opera.

thaluikhain:

Jonluw:
I don't know if space is objectively evil, but it's certainly hostile.
It is quite apt at killing people, so even in the face of moral relativism I say we must realize that space is our enemy and fight it.

I'm still in favour of space exploration. It's a valuable tool for learning new methods for fighting space. Why would I blow up space stations due to my belief that space is our enemy? After all, space stations mark victories in our battle against space.

Eh. Space isn't nearly that bad, how many people has it actually killed? Compare that to mountains or rivers or deserts, we should be trying to destroy the environment here (as it, render it non existent, not reshape it) before trying to delete hard vacuum.

Sure, space hasn't killed many humans. Yet.

That doesn't change the fact that it has proven itself willing and able to kill any human it can get its hands on.

image
Just look at it. What do you think those red clouds are? I'll tell you: The remnants of alien species which abandoned the protection of their motherly planets.

Sure, mountains and rivers may be a little unreliable at times and have happened to kill people in the past, but the ratio of death by mountain versus exposure to mountain is far lower than that of space.
Besides, the mountains which kill people are mostly a few extremists, and I'll be damned if you insist on grouping those in with normal moderate mountains.

While it is true that space has not killed many humans yet, it has clearly announced its hostility, and we must not allow it to catch us flat-footed just because it hasn't killed so many of us. Yet.

Hasn't killed any of us yet. Psh. That's what people said about the Nazis.

Scientifically speaking, evil density decreases further away from the earth's surface. So, no, space is not evil.

Think about it, did Hitler come from Space?

Gerishnakov:

Fairly certain Titan doesn't have fossil fuels. In order to have fossil fuels it would have had to have fossils, for which it would need complex life, etc...

It's helium-3 we really need to be after anyway.

You would think that, but no. Not only does it have fossil fuels, but it RAINS them. More specifically propane. About 29 billion gallons of propane. While I am not entirely certain why Titan contains propane, it is a fossil fuel.

The problem is right now as with Helium 3 and Anti-Matter (both of which we have produced in relatively small quantities) is all too expensive. The resources to create it cost far more too much to make it a common energy source.

Not G. Ivingname:
Actually, the process I described is called spagettification: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghettification

It doesn't work just as I described, and it may seam quicker to the person in the Black Hole (frame of reference, the gravity effect on time, and all that jazz) but if your not incinerated by the immense heat, your body will be stretched, and the black hole will rip apart your molecules.

Yes I know what spaghettification is. I was referring to the "process that will take a thousand years" comment that reminded me of the move were they said to Han Solo that they would end up in the monsters stomach were they would be digested for a 1000 years. Just my little joke.

thaluikhain:
Actually, Islam, or at least certain groups, have problems with space.

In that they have to pray towards Mecca at certain times of the day, related to sunrise and sunset, IIRC.

Try doing that when you are in a 90 minute orbit...This has actually come up, and they told the guy to make his best guess at it.

Right, Islam has no concerns with space travel, it just complicates a couple rituals. A similar problem actually exists on earth for those who live in near arctic zones where there is no sunset or sunrise for prolonged periods of time.

Zeh Don:
An almost entirely baseless statement that has zero quantification: during what is recognised as The Dark Ages, Islamic Educators were changing the world through the advancement of literacy and mathematics. Without their efforts, most of the modern world wouldn't be so "modern".

There were not smart people because of Islam. There were smart people because of smart people. A professor in mathematics are not good at numbers just because he happens to be a Muslim or a Christian. Such nonsense.
And 800 years of a Europe ruled by dogma and superstition where science and knowledge was heresy makes it anything but a baseless statement. 100 years ago, the brothers Wright lifted off ground in a very primitive flying device for a short time. Now we are flying probes to March and have landed on the moon.

Just 100 years. Now think about what we might have accomplished in 800 years in a world where the only thing stopping you was your imagination and not jail or a burning stake with you tied to it.

Zack Alklazaris:

Gerishnakov:

Fairly certain Titan doesn't have fossil fuels. In order to have fossil fuels it would have had to have fossils, for which it would need complex life, etc...

It's helium-3 we really need to be after anyway.

You would think that, but no. Not only does it have fossil fuels, but it RAINS them. More specifically propane. About 29 billion gallons of propane. While I am not entirely certain why Titan contains propane, it is a fossil fuel.

The problem is right now as with Helium 3 and Anti-Matter (both of which we have produced in relatively small quantities) is all too expensive. The resources to create it cost far more too much to make it a common energy source.

Yes King of the Hill takes place on Titan...everything runs on propane.

Seriously though Titan is an awesome world to study. Once you get past the clouds it looks quite similar to Earth that its almost eerie...well similar if you are looking at black and white photos. In color its very different. But yes as best we can figure it does rain propane and other fossil fuels and there are even lakes of them. The interesting thing about the Solar System is once you get out of the inner solar system the moons can be more fascinating than the planets themselves (then again that could be a species bias since humans prefer worlds with solid ground).

I mean you have Io which is more volcanically active than Earth though its smaller than our moon.

You have Europe which is thought to have an extensive underground/ice ocean of liquid water and could have life on it or in it right now.

Ganymede is the largest moon in the solar system (larger than Mercury) and has its own magnetic field. If we ever set up an ground-based outpost in the Jupiter system it will be on Ganymede.

And that's just around Jupiter. Saturn has a few interesting moons other than Titan and we don't know much about Uranus's and Neptune's moons since those planets have only been visited once (by Voyager 2) and its unlikely they will be visited again anytime soon due to their distance and how the planets are aligned right now (the only reason the Voyagers could get there was because of a convenient line up of the planets that allowed you to use a gravitational slingshot to boost a spacecraft to each planet...that doesn't happen very often, in fact the last time that happened prior to Voyager, Thomas Jefferson was President...and he blew it).

Seekster:
You have [sic] Europe which is thought to have an extensive underground/ice ocean of liquid water and could have life on it or in it right now.

Are you suggesting crab people live under Europe? If so I'm getting out of here.

Seekster:

Yes King of the Hill takes place on Titan...everything runs on propane.

Seriously though Titan is an awesome world to study. Once you get past the clouds it looks quite similar to Earth that its almost eerie...well similar if you are looking at black and white photos. In color its very different. But yes as best we can figure it does rain propane and other fossil fuels and there are even lakes of them. The interesting thing about the Solar System is once you get out of the inner solar system the moons can be more fascinating than the planets themselves (then again that could be a species bias since humans prefer worlds with solid ground).

I mean you have Io which is more volcanically active than Earth though its smaller than our moon.

You have Europe which is thought to have an extensive underground/ice ocean of liquid water and could have life on it or in it right now.

Ganymede is the largest moon in the solar system (larger than Mercury) and has its own magnetic field. If we ever set up an ground-based outpost in the Jupiter system it will be on Ganymede.

And that's just around Jupiter. Saturn has a few interesting moons other than Titan and we don't know much about Uranus's and Neptune's moons since those planets have only been visited once (by Voyager 2) and its unlikely they will be visited again anytime soon due to their distance and how the planets are aligned right now (the only reason the Voyagers could get there was because of a convenient line up of the planets that allowed you to use a gravitational slingshot to boost a spacecraft to each planet...that doesn't happen very often, in fact the last time that happened prior to Voyager, Thomas Jefferson was President...and he blew it).

I wouldn't be at all surprised if we eventually find some form of life on one of our gas giants moons. I always found it odd that as humans we generally seem to think, "Ok we're alive so all life needs oxygen, a gravity level of g0, and 1 astronomical unit from the sun." While no one can exactly prove it, it just seems a bit narcissistic.

I understand your love of the moons. I too have a love for Europa (I'm hoping for at least a Europa salmon.) and Callisto (because of how ancient the surface is). I also really like Mimas if anything else because it looks like a Death Star, though being able to sit that close to Saturn on any semi stable rock would truly be a sight to behold.

thaluikhain:

Jonluw:
I don't know if space is objectively evil, but it's certainly hostile.
It is quite apt at killing people, so even in the face of moral relativism I say we must realize that space is our enemy and fight it.

I'm still in favour of space exploration. It's a valuable tool for learning new methods for fighting space. Why would I blow up space stations due to my belief that space is our enemy? After all, space stations mark victories in our battle against space.

Eh. Space isn't nearly that bad, how many people has it actually killed? Compare that to mountains or rivers or deserts, we should be trying to destroy the environment here (as it, render it non existent, not reshape it) before trying to delete hard vacuum.

yes but how many people have been to space as opposed to land.

Gerishnakov:

Seekster:
You have [sic] Europe which is thought to have an extensive underground/ice ocean of liquid water and could have life on it or in it right now.

Are you suggesting crab people live under Europe? If so I'm getting out of here.

Wouldn't that be something...but no I mean more like bacteria or at the very most something similar to tube worms but that is probably expecting too much.

Zack Alklazaris:

Seekster:

Yes King of the Hill takes place on Titan...everything runs on propane.

Seriously though Titan is an awesome world to study. Once you get past the clouds it looks quite similar to Earth that its almost eerie...well similar if you are looking at black and white photos. In color its very different. But yes as best we can figure it does rain propane and other fossil fuels and there are even lakes of them. The interesting thing about the Solar System is once you get out of the inner solar system the moons can be more fascinating than the planets themselves (then again that could be a species bias since humans prefer worlds with solid ground).

I mean you have Io which is more volcanically active than Earth though its smaller than our moon.

You have Europa which is thought to have an extensive underground/ice ocean of liquid water and could have life on it or in it right now.

Ganymede is the largest moon in the solar system (larger than Mercury) and has its own magnetic field. If we ever set up an ground-based outpost in the Jupiter system it will be on Ganymede.

And that's just around Jupiter. Saturn has a few interesting moons other than Titan and we don't know much about Uranus's and Neptune's moons since those planets have only been visited once (by Voyager 2) and its unlikely they will be visited again anytime soon due to their distance and how the planets are aligned right now (the only reason the Voyagers could get there was because of a convenient line up of the planets that allowed you to use a gravitational slingshot to boost a spacecraft to each planet...that doesn't happen very often, in fact the last time that happened prior to Voyager, Thomas Jefferson was President...and he blew it).

I wouldn't be at all surprised if we eventually find some form of life on one of our gas giants moons. I always found it odd that as humans we generally seem to think, "Ok we're alive so all life needs oxygen, a gravity level of g0, and 1 astronomical unit from the sun." While no one can exactly prove it, it just seems a bit narcissistic.

I understand your love of the moons. I too have a love for Europa (I'm hoping for at least a Europa salmon.) and Callisto (because of how ancient the surface is). I also really like Mimas if anything else because it looks like a Death Star, though being able to sit that close to Saturn on any semi stable rock would truly be a sight to behold.

I've often found that odd too, what do we know of life on other planets? Nothing we havnt found any. So why then do we assume that all life has to be like life on Earth? Its too close minded if you ask me but hey it makes some sense. We can't very well focus on every world looking for life. If we can only focus on certain worlds it does make sense to look where we would expect to find life but I do not think it is wise to simply assume that life could only exist where we expect it to.

Yeah Mimas...the weird part is...Star War came out before the Voyager pictures of Mimas came out (by a few years). Just imagine when they first saw them. Lucas did not get the idea for the Death Star from Mimas...there is no way he could possibly have known what it would have looked like up close when Star War was made since up close photos only became available a few years after Star Wars Episode IV was released.

Its a pity no terrestrial worlds have ring systems because looking up at the rings or especially seeing them at night...the very idea gives me shivers.

Zack Alklazaris:
I wouldn't be at all surprised if we eventually find some form of life on one of our gas giants moons. I always found it odd that as humans we generally seem to think, "Ok we're alive so all life needs oxygen, a gravity level of g0, and 1 astronomical unit from the sun." While no one can exactly prove it, it just seems a bit narcissistic.

I understand your love of the moons. I too have a love for Europa (I'm hoping for at least a Europa salmon.) and Callisto (because of how ancient the surface is). I also really like Mimas if anything else because it looks like a Death Star, though being able to sit that close to Saturn on any semi stable rock would truly be a sight to behold.

It's mostly beacuse that's our understaning of life at the moment, we don't simply don't know if life can exist in a differnt place

Space travel or colonization may not be relevant to a lot of people today, religious reasons or other. But when the next big rock comes screaming at us (and it will) doing 44 miles per second as it hits the atmosphere, it is going to be VERY relevant for people at the surface. How ever briefly.

Not all the eggs in the same basket and all that. Not to mention that the sun is going to turn in to a monster and boil off the inner planets including earth in the far future. Humanity better be somewhere else then. If we survive that long.

Rastelin:
Space travel or colonization may not be relevant to a lot of people today, religious reasons or other. But when the next big rock comes screaming at us (and it will) doing 44 miles per second as it hits the atmosphere, it is going to be VERY relevant for people at the surface. How ever briefly.

Not all the eggs in the same basket and all that. Not to mention that the sun is going to turn in to a monster and boil off the inner planets including earth in the far future. Humanity better be somewhere else then. If we survive that long.

In the far-far-farrrrrrrr future the universe will eventually fizz out and die. We better be able to create alternative realities by then.

I don't think anyone here believes that we should no go to space, especially not for religious reasons. Those crazies are incredibly rare even in America.

Seekster:

You have Europe which is thought to have an extensive underground/ice ocean of liquid water and could have life on it or in it right now.

ALL THESE WORLDS ARE YOURS EXCEPT EUROPA. ATTEMPT NO LANDING THERE.

Stay away from Europa or bad things will happen!!!!!

Seekster:

I've often found that odd too, what do we know of life on other planets? Nothing we havnt found any. So why then do we assume that all life has to be like life on Earth? Its too close minded if you ask me but hey it makes some sense. We can't very well focus on every world looking for life. If we can only focus on certain worlds it does make sense to look where we would expect to find life but I do not think it is wise to simply assume that life could only exist where we expect it to.

That's a common misconception. Scientists have and do consider alternative types of biochemistry when looking for life in the Universe. The problem is, out of all the elements in the periodic table, carbon is currently the only atom able to form the complex molecular structures necessary for life.

Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_biochemistry

Kendarik:

Seekster:

You have Europe which is thought to have an extensive underground/ice ocean of liquid water and could have life on it or in it right now.

ALL THESE WORLDS ARE YOURS EXCEPT EUROPA. ATTEMPT NO LANDING THERE.

Stay away from Europa or bad things will happen!!!!!

Oops sorry, fixed the typo.

PercyBoleyn:

Seekster:

I've often found that odd too, what do we know of life on other planets? Nothing we havnt found any. So why then do we assume that all life has to be like life on Earth? Its too close minded if you ask me but hey it makes some sense. We can't very well focus on every world looking for life. If we can only focus on certain worlds it does make sense to look where we would expect to find life but I do not think it is wise to simply assume that life could only exist where we expect it to.

That's a common misconception. Scientists have and do consider alternative types of biochemistry when looking for life in the Universe. The problem is, out of all the elements in the periodic table, carbon is currently the only atom able to form the complex molecular structures necessary for life.

Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_biochemistry

Hmm interesting, though I remember hearing somewhere that other elements like Silicon could also work but I could be wrong, Chemistry isnt exactly my favorite subject.

aPod:
In the far-far-farrrrrrrr future the universe will eventually fizz out and die. We better be able to create alternative realities by then.

The final showdown yes. No wonder short time solutions like gods are more comforting. But we are part of the universe. When it says "au revoir", so do we. Hard cold facts. Unless we can punch a hole in to an alternative universe. It is a theory scientists entertain.

Rastelin:

aPod:
In the far-far-farrrrrrrr future the universe will eventually fizz out and die. We better be able to create alternative realities by then.

The final showdown yes. No wonder short time solutions like gods are more comforting. But we are part of the universe. When it says "au revoir", so do we. Hard cold facts. Unless we can punch a hole in to an alternative universe. It is a theory scientists entertain.

We have a few hundred million years until the Earth is uninhabitable (basically until we get to the point where the sun gets so hot water can't exist as a liquid on the surface) assuming we have moved to another solar system before then we can start planning for what we are going to do when the Universe starts running out of stars.

Seekster:

We have a few hundred million years until the Earth is uninhabitable (basically until we get to the point where the sun gets so hot water can't exist as a liquid on the surface) assuming we have moved to another solar system before then we can start planning for what we are going to do when the Universe starts running out of stars.

Not much we CAN do at that point. If the Big Crunch stays home, and the Big Rip doesn't feel like showing up either, the Big Chill is going to be the end of it - imagine a big space. Like, even bigger than how it's described in HHGTTG, that contains a photon here and there every, say, million light years.

Vegosiux:

Seekster:

We have a few hundred million years until the Earth is uninhabitable (basically until we get to the point where the sun gets so hot water can't exist as a liquid on the surface) assuming we have moved to another solar system before then we can start planning for what we are going to do when the Universe starts running out of stars.

Not much we CAN do at that point. If the Big Crunch stays home, and the Big Rip doesn't feel like showing up either, the Big Chill is going to be the end of it - imagine a big space. Like, even bigger than how it's described in HHGTTG, that contains a photon here and there every, say, million light years.

Like someone else said, (all of this of course is hypothetical as far as I am concerned but I entertain it because its interesting) the only way you could survive that is to actually travel to a different universe if its possible to do that and assume other universes actually exist.

There is an episode of The Universe on the History Channel that details what happens after the last star flickers out and eventually even black holes evaporate. Far, far, farrrrrrrrr in the future doesnt even begin to accurately describe how far away that day is.

Jonluw:

Besides, the mountains which kill people are mostly a few extremists, and I'll be damned if you insists on grouping those in with normal moderate mountains.

That cracked me up more than you can imagine. Oh the hilarity:)

Only if I had a premonition of us finding the planet with aliens that decide to wage intergalactic war on us, and then us losing and becoming slaves to mine their cabbage patch fields. Other than that, SSSSPPPPPAAAACCCCCCCEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!

Seekster:

Hmm interesting, though I remember hearing somewhere that other elements like Silicon could also work but I could be wrong, Chemistry isnt exactly my favorite subject.

Here's a NASA answer to Slicon life:

http://nai.arc.nasa.gov/astrobio/feat_questions/silicon_life.cfm

Odds are sci fi stories have just used it so often that people have started to think its possible.

TheTurtleMan:
Only if I had a premonition of us finding the planet with aliens that decide to wage intergalactic war on us, and then us losing and becoming slaves to mine their cabbage patch fields. Other than that, SSSSPPPPPAAAACCCCCCCEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!

Not cabbage. To unrealistic. But Cauliflower. The most evil smelling vegetable in the known Multiverses.
Strange but true.

Daverson:
Scientifically speaking, evil density decreases further away from the earth's surface. So, no, space is not evil.

Think about it, did Hitler come from Space?

No, but that's where he and the Nazi's went after, to the moon

image

As I stated. Not all the eggs in one basket^^

Rastelin:

As I stated. Not all the eggs in one basket^^

Ok, you win this thread.

exploring the sea is actually much more dangerous than exploring space.

maintaining a one atmosphere pressure differential (as required in space) is basically engineering peanuts.

I really want to reply to this thread with a witty retort like "Even the hardcore muslim terrorists would call that idea wacko."

But sadly, I've spent enough time on the internet to learn that, no idea is too hair-brained, wacko, or downright stupidly insane to not gather at least a small gaggle of hardcore believers. Because there is -always- someone out there stupid enough to believe you.

Sleekit:
exploring the sea is actually much more dangerous than exploring space.

maintaining a one atmosphere pressure differential (as required in space) is basically engineering peanuts.

Oh I don't know.

Osteoporosis - As a result of microgravity, osteoporosis occurs at a rapid rate. Osteoporosis is a decrease in bone mass that leads to an increased susceptibility to fracture.

Hearing Loss - Traveling in space can cause temporary and permanent hearing loss.

Space Debris - Space debris is a result of our environmental negligence. Debris continually orbits Earth for up to millions of years.

Psychological Effects - Being with the same people in a cramped up place for a long time can be extremely stressful.

Micro meteorites - Those little buggers can puncture your hull or suit exposing you to vacuum.

Radiation - The Earths atmosphere protects us from harmful radiation, but when humans travel out into space, they are susceptible to life-threatening amounts of a more dangerous radiation. High speed particles playing "whack a mole" with your body.

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