It isn't a matter of which is "more important", its about a person having the choice to not be somebodies father if they don't want to. Also, this medical decision doesn't just affect the women, it has life changing effects on the mans life as well. If this was a discussion about if a man should be able to tell a women when to get a breast exam, or when to see the OBGYN, then I would say its up to her because it only effects her. However in this case, if a women decides she wants a baby and the man doesn't he doesn't get to a choice in deciding if he becomes somebodies father or not.
Volf: If there was an issue, I would have the court order the women to have an abortion.
That is the scariest thing I have read on here.
The fact that there are real people out there who think this is a good idea scares the shit out of me.
My God.. It's moments like these why I realise how horrible things happen in the World. Some people just have no perspective on anything that exists outside their little head.
yes, god forbid that a potential father have equal say in something as life changing as the possible birth of a child. After all it wasn't as if he was needed for there to even be a fetus in the first place.
Oh what bullshit. Don't try to justify what you just said, you just said you supported forcibly aborting a baby from a woman without her consent. That's fucking disgusting. I can't decide whether it is sexist or just evil. Probably both.
Whether or not a female wants to listen to her partner about abortion is up to her. In a perfect world, she would. But at the end of the day that is her body and she gets to decide.
You're in favour of police arresting a woman, tying her to a bed, putting her legs in straps, gassing her and killing the baby she wants to mother inside of her.
You clearly have no fucking idea about the social repercussions that would have.
Volf: It isn't a matter of which is "more important", its about a person having the choice to not be somebodies father if they don't want to. Also, this medical decision doesn't just affect the women, it has life changing effects on the mans life as well. If this was a discussion about if a man should be able to tell a women when to get a breast exam, or when to see the OBGYN, then I would say its up to her because it only effects her. However in this case, if a women decides she wants a baby and the man doesn't he doesn't get to a choice in deciding if he becomes somebodies father or not.
Well, obviously, this should be put to a vote. And how committed the two people involved are should factor into it.
Let's be ultra-complimentary to the man, and assume his contribution was (ahem) a half-hour of (AHEM) hard work (AHEM I SAY!).
The woman, on the other hand, is going to be toting around that internal parasite for 9 months. that's 9 * 29 * 24 * 2 = 12528 times more effort.
So, she's got him outvoted. Whether she wants the baby or not, it's her body, her choice.
Instead of naming calling(really? I'm evil and/or sexist because I don't agree with you?), you state your point.
As I said many times, a man should have the right to not be forced to be somebodies father. A women already has this option, so why not give it to a man as well.
Volf: It isn't a matter of which is "more important", its about a person having the choice to not be somebodies father if they don't want to. Also, this medical decision doesn't just affect the women, it has life changing effects on the mans life as well. If this was a discussion about if a man should be able to tell a women when to get a breast exam, or when to see the OBGYN, then I would say its up to her because it only effects her. However in this case, if a women decides she wants a baby and the man doesn't he doesn't get to a choice in deciding if he becomes somebodies father or not.
Well, obviously, this should be put to a vote. And how committed the two people involved are should factor into it.
Let's be ultra-complimentary to the man, and assume his contribution was (ahem) a half-hour of (AHEM) hard work (AHEM I SAY!).
The woman, on the other hand, is going to be toting around that internal parasite for 9 months. that's 9 * 29 * 24 * 2 = 12528 times more effort.
So, she's got him outvoted. Whether she wants the baby or not, it's her body, her choice.
I tell you what, if the guy can take back his "contribution", the women can do whatever she wants with her "half". ;D
Wow...that "point" thing was incredibly arrogant to the point of being...I can't even describe just how snobish that was.
But again, point still stands; all you're doing is plugging your ears and going "I said it so it's true! 12 points to be lol!"
Perhaps. However, it did highlight the point that you didn't actually address anything I said. Moving on...
Hair is alive. Does that mean hair deserves special rights? Does cutting hair constitute as murdering the hair? My finger nails are constantly growing, and I commiting murder by cutting them? Cells are alive, but they are not people at all; they are all considered apart of the one person. They do not act independently of that person. And society and morality have ruled that a person has a right to do to their own body, their own cells, as they see fit.
Well, the second part of my argument addresses this. Hair or fingernail cells aren't a product of male and female reproduction. They also aren't a seperate organism or the start of a seperate organism's life.
Begining does not equal a person. A non-insignificant part of zygotes die early into the pregnancy. Just because it has the potential to become a baby doesn't mean that it deserves the same rights as it from conception, nor does it mean that it should be considered a human being from that point, just like all cells are considered apart of a person and not treated different in the eyes of society.
What part of the zygote dies early in pregnancy? I'm not sure I interpretted that correctly. Do you mean zygotes often die early in pregnancy? If so, that's natural death. Death is what makes life so precious. So that's kind of beside the point.
Correct, in the eyes of society, the unborn do not have rights. That's the point of an abortion debate. "Potential to become a baby." Well, that's also my concern. Anything but the biological truth should not be used, as it then becomes subjective. Subjective analysis of what makes someone human has not worked in the past. Because we've learnt our lesson, it should no longer matter? I don't believe that one bit.
Your entire arguement hinges on the zygote being considered a person instead of being a cluster of cells. Just because it has the potential to become a person doesn't change the fact that it's still medically a group of cells.
Your entire argument hinges on the idea that people should define and choose what's human and who has personhood. My entire argument hinges on the idea that we have no right to pick and choose who's worthy of life.
Now, time for you to "prove" something at long last; prove that women have lost-self respect. You can add it to that "ego-stroking" counter you have going.
The rise of feminism has no doubt changed the attitude of women. A lot of women are at a point where power is more important than basic things like motherhood. I consider motherhood to be a major power that women are now manipulating for reasons arguably irrelevant to the good of society.
Your post was civil, so I will try to keep my post civilized. While you countered my argument above, you didn't actually address anything that I hadn't already addressed as 'wrong'.
There's little point in continuing this discussion. You're saying the largest majority/most powerful should decide what makes someone human and what gives someone personhood, while I'm saying that's morally wrong. You, personally, will never understand this because you'll never be a part of a minority that is refused humanity and personhood. Neither will I; however, I have a little thing called empathy.
Instead of naming calling(really? I'm evil and/or sexist because I don't agree with you?), you state your point.
I'm not calling you evil/sexist because you disagree with me. I'm calling you evil/sexist because you think women should be tied down, gassed and have their baby aborted because some dead beat father doesn't want to deal with the consequences of his actions.
Not only are you so twisted you think this sounds fine, you have no idea about the repercussions this would cause.
Volf: As I said many times, a man should have the right to not be forced to be somebodies father.
He does. It's called wearing a condom. It's called not having sex with someone who you don't trust.
Actions have consequences.
Volf: A women already has this option, so why not give it to a man as well.
The only reason a woman has this option is because she has to endure nine months of life changing body adjustments and tremendous pain and illness to do so. Men don't.
I'm a mother. Under your proposed system, if my partner all of a sudden turned around and said "Sorry, I don't want to be a Dad" agents of the state would come to my house, beat me and restrain me, gass me and kill my child and destroy my mental well-being permanently in the process. I literally cannot think of one example that would give me more emotional torment than that. That's worse than being raped.
You're clueless and people like you should have no say in politics. Thank God you don't.
Sounds like you can't really have much against abortion, then. The more death, the more precious is life. Much like driving up the price of a commodity by hoarding or cutting production, the value of life (apparently, according to you) can be driven up by death. So we have less life but it's more worthwhile. Which all seems quite reasonable if you think about it. More 'convenience' of life, less quantity of life. What a bargain!
You could say it, but you'd just look silly. Especially considering we were talking about a woman KEEPING her child when the man didn't want it.
Besides, isn't it pretty obvious that if a man wants no part of his child the child is better off without him?
Correct; if a man wants no part of his child, the child is better off without him. However, you were being sexist. Which is the complete opposite of what you should be. After all, Pro-Choice is a Feminist movement. The Feminist movement is meant to be anti-discrimination.
Volf: If there was an issue, I would have the court order the women to have an abortion.
That is the scariest thing I have read on here.
The fact that there are real people out there who think this is a good idea scares the shit out of me.
My God.. It's moments like these why I realise how horrible things happen in the World. Some people just have no perspective on anything that exists outside their little head.
yes, god forbid that a potential father have equal say in something as life changing as the possible birth of a child. After all it wasn't as if he was needed for there to even be a fetus in the first place.
Yes, the guy gets to make her have an abortion against her will possibly. How... equal. Order her to have an abortion if there's an issue. If you have no concept of the word 'equality' and think women should be controlled for the sake of men that is then I'm sure that might appear 'equal'.
Yes, the both get an 'equal' say in her body. I'd almost think I was talking to a cartoon villain at this point -__-
I'm not calling you evil/sexist because you disagree with me. I'm calling you evil/sexist because you think women should be tied down, gassed and have their baby aborted because some dead beat father doesn't want to deal with the consequences of his actions.
Not only are you so twisted you think this sounds fine, you have no idea about the repercussions this would cause.
Really? I'm evil?
my response to giving me such a silly 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
Ok in all seriousness, I stated this before, that I'm only in favor of this option if the women's life is at serious risk. Obviously I don't want the women to be forced to go through a procedure that might kill her.
SillyBear: He does. It's called wearing a condom. It's called not having sex with someone who you don't trust.
Actions have consequences.
...have you read nothing that I typed in this thread?
Allow me to quote myself when somebody else brought up this commentPHA+TXkgc3RhbmNlIGlzIHRoYXQgY29uZG9tcyBzaG91bGQgYmUgdXNlZCwgaG93ZXZlciBpZiB0aGV5IGZhaWwgdGhlbiBhYm9ydGlvbiBzaG91bGQgYmUgYSBiYWNrdXAgb3B0aW9uIGZvciBlaXRoZXIgcGFydHkgdG8gY2hvb3NlPC9wPg==
SillyBear: The only reason a woman has this option is because she has to endure nine months of life changing body adjustments and tremendous pain and illness to do so. Men don't.
I'm a mother. Under your proposed system, if my partner all of a sudden turned around and said "Sorry, I don't want to be a Dad" agents of the state would come to my house, beat me and restrain me, gass me and kill my child and destroy my mental well-being permanently in the process. I literally cannot think of one example that would give me more emotional torment than that.
Point out the part where I said you should be beaten, go on I'll wait. Also I never advocated killing a living human being, I advocated aborting a fetus.
A sperm and an egg are reproductive CELLS. They are alive. All cells are either living or dead. If they're living, they're alive. If they're dead, they lose all function. If they are neither living or dead, they do not exist. That's a fairly simple concept, I would have thought.
That would describe cancer cells as well. Made of your own human cells, designed to reproduce, and they are very much alive.
You're also failing to grasp general logic. If you actually read what I said, you'd see I proved without a doubt a zygote/embyro/fetus is a living human, seperate and unique from it's mother. I'm not going to repeat myself, because if you couldn't understand then you won't understand now.
Cancer cells are not reproductive cells, i.e. gametes.
When a male gamete and a female gamete fuse, they become a zygote. This is the earliest stage of development. It marks the beginning of a new organism - in this case, a Homo sapien.
Ok in all seriousness, I stated this before, that I'm only in favor of this option if the women's life is at serious risk. Obviously I don't want the women to be forced to go through a procedure that might kill her.
You were asked:
How would you realistically enforce men getting half of the say in the decision of abortion without favouring one gender over another?
You replied:
I would have the court order the women to have an abortion.
My stance is that condoms should be used, however if they fail then abortion should be a backup option for either party to choose
This concept of allowing someone to demand a surgery on another person is absolutely Hitler like. It's invasive. It's brutal and it's evil.
Volf: Point out the part where I said you should be beaten
What exactly do you think would happen if police came into my house and tried to arrest me in order to abort my unborn child? You think I'd just let them? Bullshit. I'd go down swinging. I speak for all mothers on Earth when I say they'd have to beat us to get us to comply.
Naturally you're in favour of this because you're in favour of making women have invasive surgery against their will.
This is all under the guise of "gender equality". What utter bullshit.
Volf: ...wow..I can't believe you even went there. For your sake, I'll ignore that comment.
No. You don't get to talk the most offensive bullshit I've ever heard then simply ignore my response.
I would much rather be gang raped than to have my child aborted against my will. I'm confident that I speak for more than my own sake when I say this.
You don't get to just "ignore" the parts you don't like.
It isn't a matter of which is "more important", its about a person having the choice to not be somebodies father if they don't want to. Also, this medical decision doesn't just affect the women, it has life changing effects on the mans life as well. If this was a discussion about if a man should be able to tell a women when to get a breast exam, or when to see the OBGYN, then I would say its up to her because it only effects her. However in this case, if a women decides she wants a baby and the man doesn't he doesn't get to a choice in deciding if he becomes somebodies father or not.
It IS a matter of which one is more important, because they're mutually exclusive.
Set aside the matter of legal responsibility because that is a separate issue. The effect on the man's life, from a purely medical standpoint, is nonexistent. Once the semen leaves your body, where ever it ends up has no physiological effect on your body. If the pregnancy is resulting from a one-night stand situation or something like that, then you may never even know you got someone pregnant.
How would you realistically enforce men getting half of the say in the decision of abortion without favouring one gender over another?
You replied:
I would have the court order the women to have an abortion.
Don't try to back pedal.
Then I amended what I typed because I acknowledged that the women's life might be at risk, or that some men might abuse this as an alternative to condoms, which I oppose.
SillyBear: This concept of allowing someone to demand a surgery on another person is absolutely Hitler like. It's invasive. It's brutal and it's evil.
and here it is lady's and gentlemen, another person who couldn't resist following Godwin's Law.
SillyBear: What exactly do you think would happen if police came into my house and tried to arrest me in order to abort my unborn child? You think I'd just let them? Bullshit. I'd go down swinging. I speak for all mothers on Earth when I say they'd have to beat us to get us to comply.
Naturally you're in favour of this because you're in favour of making women have invasive surgery against their will.
This is all under the guise of "gender equality". What utter bullshit.
You may speak for yourself, but you do not speak on behalf of billions of people. To suggest otherwise is a combination of arrogance and nonsense.
You still haven't shown the part where I stated you should be beaten or where I said that once a child is born they should be murdered.
SillyBear: No. You don't get to talk the most offensive bullshit I've ever heard then simply ignore my response.
I would much rather be gang raped than to have my child aborted against my will. I'm confident that I speak for more than my own sake when I say this.
You don't get to just "ignore" the parts you don't like.
I'm not going to comment on such a foolish comment. You can make these silly comments all you like, but I refuse to argue something as absurd as "which is worse, A or B?"
Volf: Then I amended what I typed because I acknowledged that the women's life might be at risk, or that some men might abuse this as an alternative to condoms, which I oppose.
Then you agree with me and realise how much of a piece of bullshit your idea was.
It isn't a matter of which is "more important", its about a person having the choice to not be somebodies father if they don't want to. Also, this medical decision doesn't just affect the women, it has life changing effects on the mans life as well. If this was a discussion about if a man should be able to tell a women when to get a breast exam, or when to see the OBGYN, then I would say its up to her because it only effects her. However in this case, if a women decides she wants a baby and the man doesn't he doesn't get to a choice in deciding if he becomes somebodies father or not.
It IS a matter of which one is more important, because they're mutually exclusive.
Set aside the matter of legal responsibility because that is a separate issue. The effect on the man's life, from a purely medical standpoint, is nonexistent. Once the semen leaves your body, where ever it ends up has no physiological effect on your body. If the pregnancy is resulting from a one-night stand situation or something like that, then you may never even know you got someone pregnant.
I realize that, but I still don't think I'm asking alot to be able to decide whether or not I'm a father to somebody.
I realize that pregnancy can have a toll on a women's body, which is why I'm opposed to forcing a women to go through with a pregnancy if she doesn't want to.
Volf: Then I amended what I typed because I acknowledged that the women's life might be at risk, or that some men might abuse this as an alternative to condoms, which I oppose.
Then you agree with me and realise how much of a piece of bullshit your idea was.
Great news!
lol, nice try but nope, because I don't think that in every case a women might die if she goes through an abortion. So I'll state it again, I am for both parties deciding whether or not they want to be parents.
I realize that pregnancy can have a toll on a women's body, which is why I'm opposed to forcing a women to go through with a pregnancy if she doesn't want to.
Just half an hour ago you were trying to tell me that a male should have the right to force a female into surgery because he doesn't want to be father.
Now you are saying that you care about the rights of females and respect their decisions.
Tell me, just how are we supposed to take you seriously?
Volf: If there was an issue, I would have the court order the women to have an abortion.
That is the scariest thing I have read on here.
The fact that there are real people out there who think this is a good idea scares the shit out of me.
My God.. It's moments like these why I realise how horrible things happen in the World. Some people just have no perspective on anything that exists outside their little head.
This. I have seen Volf say several naive or foolish things at times, but that comment is just beyond insane. That someone would honestly believe that it was a just idea to force a woman to have an abortion against her will is just damn right frightening. It manages to take a stance that is about woman being able to make the choice about their own bodies themselves (which is most commonly opposed by men or organisations dominated by men) and taking it to making them only have control if the man wants her to have the baby.
I realize that pregnancy can have a toll on a women's body, which is why I'm opposed to forcing a women to go through with a pregnancy if she doesn't want to.
Just half an hour ago you were trying to tell me that a male should have the right to force a female into surgery because he doesn't want to be father.
Now you are saying that you care about the rights of females and respect their decisions.
Tell me, just how are we supposed to take you seriously?
I love how you say "force a female into surgery" as if abortion is the worse possible scenerio, yet you 100% support abortion when a women is too childish to take responsibility for an unwanted pregnancy. Just enough hypocrisy to make me wonder where Pro-Choicers get any of their logic from.
I realize that pregnancy can have a toll on a women's body, which is why I'm opposed to forcing a women to go through with a pregnancy if she doesn't want to.
Just half an hour ago you were trying to tell me that a male should have the right to force a female into surgery because he doesn't want to be father.
Now you are saying that you care about the rights of females and respect their decisions.
Tell me, just how are we supposed to take you seriously?
I never used the words "rights of the female" or "[female] decisions", I said if the women would die because of the abortion, then I would be against it. However the abortion procedure doesn't always kill women, so I support it when the women won't die from the procedure.
Your not reading everything that I have said to other people then, because I already addressed this....
I realize that pregnancy can have a toll on a women's body, which is why I'm opposed to forcing a women to go through with a pregnancy if she doesn't want to.
Just half an hour ago you were trying to tell me that a male should have the right to force a female into surgery because he doesn't want to be father.
Now you are saying that you care about the rights of females and respect their decisions.
Tell me, just how are we supposed to take you seriously?
Your still dodging the question I asked you, which was where did I state that I supported beating women and killing children?
I love how you say "force a female into surgery" as if abortion is the worse possible scenerio
Woah, woah, what?
The reason why I said "force a female into surgery" is because this guy was literally saying women should be forced into surgery if they want to keep their baby but their partner doesn't.
I wasn't using hyperbole here, or exaggerating anything. I was recounting exactly what he said.
F4LL3N: yet you 100% support abortion when a women is too childish to take responsibility for an unwanted pregnancy.
No I don't. I think those babies should be adopted.
But there is a difference between the two. One is consensual surgery and one is not.
F4LL3N: Just enough hypocrisy to make me wonder where Pro-Choicers get any of their logic from.
I'm not a "pro-choicer". No idea where you got that from. The guy I'm debating is a pro choicer. I'm not in support of abortion at all, but I think it is far more harmful to outlaw it because that leads to desperate measures.
I think you've got my point of view completely mixed up. Either that or you just want to fight with someone. Probably the latter.
Volf: Your still dodging the question I asked you, which was where did I state that I supported beating women and killing children?
- You told me women should be forced to abort if the father doesn't want the baby
- In order to do this police would be needed to arrest the woman and take her to the abortion clinic
- Most women would not go compliantly. They would take it as an assault against their body and their offspring.
- In order to contain them, you would have to beat them or use severe force in order to make them comply and in order to restrain them for transportation to the abortion clinic.
So you were, in essence, advocating the beating of women. That's like ordering the invasion of a hostile country, but not supporting the use of deadly force. You support one - you support the other because one leads to the other.
I don't know if you picked up on the message or not man, but you ended up changing your position and agreeing with me so I have no reason to talk to you. You just want to keep debating, but you agree with me now.
- You told me women should be forced to abort if the father doesn't want the baby
- In order to do this police would be needed to arrest the woman and take her to the abortion clinic
- Most women would not go compliantly. They would take it as an assault against their body and their offspring.
- In order to contain them, you would have to beat them or use severe force in order to make them comply and in order to restrain them for transportation to the abortion clinic.
So you were, in essence, advocating the beating of women. That's like ordering the invasion of a hostile country, but not supporting the use of deadly force. You support one - you support the other because one leads to the other.
I don't know if you picked up on the message or not man, but you ended up changing your position and agreeing with me so I have no reason to talk to you. You just want to keep debating, but you agree with me now.
Nope, my stance was the same before I responded to your comments. I support a man having a say in abortion, however if this abortion would kill the women, then I don't. If the abortion wouldn't kill the women, I would favor the abortion even if the women was against it.
Also like I said before, you don't speak for over a billion people, and your arrogant to think otherwise.
SillyBear: ...Either that or you just want to fight with someone. Probably the latter.
This. Sorry. I didn't actually want to fight with you. I just saw a weak spot and thought it to be a perfect opportunity to pounce.
Moreso though, I find the idea that males have no say in abortion to be completely wrong. I believe consent laws are necessary if abortion is to stay legal. Most places don't even have notification laws; now that's pathetic. That, and fathers should have a right to denounce all finanical responsibility. Although, that seems to me like it would cause more abortions.
EDIT: Oh, and I have no doubt there are people out there who read that comment with their position applying to what I said.
Also like I said before, you don't speak for over a billion people, and your arrogant to think otherwise.
You call me arrogant because I say with confidence that women, as a whole, would react awfully to someone forcing them to have an abortion.
And yet you, on the other hand, are arrogant enough to appoint yourself as moral arbiter and make the claim that there is nothing wrong with forcing someone into a surgery they don't want.
SillyBear: ...Either that or you just want to fight with someone. Probably the latter.
This. Sorry. I didn't actually want to fight with you. I just saw a weak spot and thought it to be a perfect opportunity to pounce.
Moreso though, I find the idea that males have no say in abortion to be completely wrong. I believe consent laws are necessary if abortion is to stay legal. Most places don't even have notification laws; now that's pathetic. That, and fathers should have a right to denounce all finanical responsibility. Although, that seems to me like it would cause more abortions.
I can't fucking believe you are still trying to pick holes in my theory whilst there is a guy advocating that abortion should be forced upon women who don't want it in order to appease the rights of the male.
Volf: It isn't a matter of which is "more important", its about a person having the choice to not be somebodies father if they don't want to. Also, this medical decision doesn't just affect the women, it has life changing effects on the mans life as well. If this was a discussion about if a man should be able to tell a women when to get a breast exam, or when to see the OBGYN, then I would say its up to her because it only effects her. However in this case, if a women decides she wants a baby and the man doesn't he doesn't get to a choice in deciding if he becomes somebodies father or not.
It IS a matter of which one is more important, because they're mutually exclusive.
Set aside the matter of legal responsibility because that is a separate issue. The effect on the man's life, from a purely medical standpoint, is nonexistent. Once the semen leaves your body, where ever it ends up has no physiological effect on your body. If the pregnancy is resulting from a one-night stand situation or something like that, then you may never even know you got someone pregnant.
I realize that, but I still don't think I'm asking alot to be able to decide whether or not I'm a father to somebody.
I realize that pregnancy can have a toll on a women's body, which is why I'm opposed to forcing a women to go through with a pregnancy if she doesn't want to.
Abortions can also take a toll on a woman's body. You're asking quite a bit.
SillyBear: ...Either that or you just want to fight with someone. Probably the latter.
This. Sorry. I didn't actually want to fight with you. I just saw a weak spot and thought it to be a perfect opportunity to pounce.
Moreso though, I find the idea that males have no say in abortion to be completely wrong. I believe consent laws are necessary if abortion is to stay legal. Most places don't even have notification laws; now that's pathetic. That, and fathers should have a right to denounce all finanical responsibility. Although, that seems to me like it would cause more abortions.
I can't fucking believe you are still trying to pick holes in my theory whilst there is a guy advocating that abortion should be forced upon women who don't want it in order to appease the rights of the male.
Dude, get your priorities right. Please?
Sorry. I would tell any person who supports abortion to get their priorities right. The fetus' life is more important than nine months of inconvience for the women.
This. Sorry. I didn't actually want to fight with you. I just saw a weak spot and thought it to be a perfect opportunity to pounce.
Moreso though, I find the idea that males have no say in abortion to be completely wrong. I believe consent laws are necessary if abortion is to stay legal. Most places don't even have notification laws; now that's pathetic. That, and fathers should have a right to denounce all finanical responsibility. Although, that seems to me like it would cause more abortions.
I can't fucking believe you are still trying to pick holes in my theory whilst there is a guy advocating that abortion should be forced upon women who don't want it in order to appease the rights of the male.
Dude, get your priorities right. Please?
Sorry. I would tell any person who supports abortion to get their priorities right. The fetus' life is more important than nine months of inconvience for the women.
I don't support abortion. At all.
I just think outlawing abortion would produce worse results. People would still get abortions, they'd just turn to the back alley and the black market to do so. It wouldn't be pretty.
But saying I support abortion is quite a fucking stretch.
I have to really question you, to be honest. How can you claim to be so anti-abortion when you would rather debate me than debate someone who not only is in favour of abortion, but is in favour of forced abortion that breaks human rights.
I just think outlawing abortion would produce worse results. People would still get abortions, they'd just turn to the back alley and the black market to do so. It wouldn't be pretty.
But saying I support abortion is quite a fucking stretch.
I have to really question you, to be honest. How can you claim to be so anti-abortion when you would rather debate me than debate someone who not only is in favour of abortion, but is in favour of forced abortion that breaks human rights.
Abortion breaks human rights, full stop. I don't see a difference between what he's saying and what anyone else says. Unless the mother is in risk of actual death or serious bodily harm, I look at all abortion from the persective of the unborn.
If the unborn had a voice, they wouldn't care whether the abortion is forced or not. They'd care less if it was forced, because atleast then it's own mother isn't advocating it.
It isn't a matter of which is "more important", its about a person having the choice to not be somebodies father if they don't want to.
Also, this medical decision doesn't just affect the women, it has life changing effects on the mans life as well. If this was a discussion about if a man should be able to tell a women when to get a breast exam, or when to see the OBGYN, then I would say its up to her because it only effects her. However in this case, if a women decides she wants a baby and the man doesn't he doesn't get to a choice in deciding if he becomes somebodies father or not.