No, calling it a 'class war' makes you an extreamist. Nobody is saying that the rich should enslave the poor, what we are saying is that one evil rich person does not equal a 'class war'.
How much prolonged exploitation of the middle- and lower-classes do you need before you'll acknowledge it? Or will that take until some rich guy actually harvests your kidneys?
We need not acknowledge it because it doesn't exist. Its a false narrative you and your side have created in order to pit people against each other.
No, calling it a 'class war' makes you an extreamist. Nobody is saying that the rich should enslave the poor, what we are saying is that one evil rich person does not equal a 'class war'.
How much prolonged exploitation of the middle- and lower-classes do you need before you'll acknowledge it? Or will that take until some rich guy actually harvests your kidneys?
We need not acknowledge it because it doesn't exist. Its a false narrative you and your side have created in order to pit people against each other.
Uh huh. And I suppose all the THEY TAK OUR JORBS stuff coming from the GOP is just a good, healthy effort to stir up some competitiveness between Americans and the illegal immigrants that keep getting hired?
How much prolonged exploitation of the middle- and lower-classes do you need before you'll acknowledge it? Or will that take until some rich guy actually harvests your kidneys?
We need not acknowledge it because it doesn't exist. Its a false narrative you and your side have created in order to pit people against each other.
Uh huh. And I suppose all the THEY TAK OUR JORBS stuff coming from the GOP is just a good, healthy effort to stir up some competitiveness between Americans and the illegal immigrants that keep getting hired?
You do realize illegal immigration does hurt the poor, right? It DOES reduce the number of jobs. It depresses wages. It puts a strain on all those social programs I'm sure you love and support. It sucks money out of the education system, and puts nothing back. It invites crime above and beyond just immigration law.
Agospy: You do realize illegal immigration does hurt the poor, right? It DOES reduce the number of jobs. It depresses wages. It puts a strain on all those social programs I'm sure you love and support. It sucks money out of the education system, and puts nothing back. It invites crime above and beyond just immigration law.
Dude, immigrants are the LAST people who want to commit any (other) crimes. They want to stay AWAY from the law.
And I'd argue that 'offshoring' has screwed over the poor in the US far worse than anything short of the entire populace of Mexico camping out in California possibly could.
Agospy: You do realize illegal immigration does hurt the poor, right? It DOES reduce the number of jobs. It depresses wages. It puts a strain on all those social programs I'm sure you love and support. It sucks money out of the education system, and puts nothing back. It invites crime above and beyond just immigration law.
Dude, immigrants are the LAST people who want to commit any (other) crimes. They want to stay AWAY from the law.
And I'd argue that 'offshoring' has screwed over the poor in the US far worse than anything short of the entire populace of Mexico camping out in California possibly could.
Are you talking about legal immigrants or illegal immigrants? You seem to be conflating the two into one.
The only reason companies "offshore" is because people like you have made it more difficult to do business in this country. Hell, with all the anti-business rhetoric spewed out from the left, I don't blame companies for taking their manufacturing to places that appreciate it more.
No, calling it a 'class war' makes you an extreamist. Nobody is saying that the rich should enslave the poor, what we are saying is that one evil rich person does not equal a 'class war'.
How much prolonged exploitation of the middle- and lower-classes do you need before you'll acknowledge it? Or will that take until some rich guy actually harvests your kidneys?
Okay, a few things here, can you point me in the direction of the flag of the rich, or their leader, their command structure, their unifying goals or any damn thing that indicates that the rich are acting in collusion in a class war any more than red heads are working to take the title of hottest hair colour from blondes.
Next up, what do the rich gain by keeping the poor down? The rich exist because of money and the movement thereof. They gain more the more of it is being spent. They buy and sell things and so do not gain anything when no one has any money to buy or sell their products.
Do you have any idea how insane you sound when you come out with stuff like this, I mean this puts you on the level of the nutter on a street corner screaming that 'the gubment stoleded my teef' with the key differance being that the government stealing teeth is actually more likely than some rich guy trying to harvest my kidneys.
People are not cartoon characters and the rich are not captain planet villians, always remember that stuff like keeping slaves and instituting an orwellian dictatorship is not profitable. People will do what benefits them most and the upper classes gain the most from simply letting everyone be fat and happy.
No, calling it a 'class war' makes you an extreamist. Nobody is saying that the rich should enslave the poor, what we are saying is that one evil rich person does not equal a 'class war'.
How much prolonged exploitation of the middle- and lower-classes do you need before you'll acknowledge it? Or will that take until some rich guy actually harvests your kidneys?
Okay, a few things here, can you point me in the direction of the flag of the rich, or their leader, their command structure, their unifying goals or any damn thing that indicates that the rich are acting in collusion in a class war any more than red heads are working to take the title of hottest hair colour from blondes.
Next up, what do the rich gain by keeping the poor down? The rich exist because of money and the movement thereof. They gain more the more of it is being spent. They buy and sell things and so do not gain anything when no one has any money to buy or sell their products.
Do you have any idea how insane you sound when you come out with stuff like this, I mean this puts you on the level of the nutter on a street corner screaming that 'the gubment stoleded my teef' with the key differance being that the government stealing teeth is actually more likely than some rich guy trying to harvest my kidneys.
People are not cartoon characters and the rich are not captain planet villians, always remember that stuff like keeping slaves and instituting an orwellian dictatorship is not profitable. People will do what benefits them most and the upper classes gain the most from simply letting everyone be fat and happy.
The only reason companies "offshore" is because people like you have made it more difficult to do business in this country. Hell, with all the anti-business rhetoric spewed out from the left, I don't blame companies for taking their manufacturing to places that appreciate it more.
Bullshit.
We could offer every CEO a zero tax rate and their choice of supermodel concubines, and they STILL wouldn't move jobs back to the US, not until Americans can figure out how to make a living on a 12-hour shift that pays 15$ a week.
The only reason companies "offshore" is because people like you have made it more difficult to do business in this country. Hell, with all the anti-business rhetoric spewed out from the left, I don't blame companies for taking their manufacturing to places that appreciate it more.
Bullshit.
We could offer every CEO a zero tax rate and their choice of supermodel concubines, and they STILL wouldn't move jobs back to the US, not until Americans can figure out how to make a living on a 12-hour shift that pays 15$ a week.
You do realize that the United States still leads the world in the manufacturing of heavy machinery, computers, and aircraft right?
Let me tell you a story. A little while back the crown jewel of aviation companies, Boeing, constructed a factory in South Carolina. It would have created thousands of jobs for locals living there. It was shutdown by the National Labors Relation board for having the audacity to build a factory in a right to work state. Why the hell would Boeing open another factory when the government behaves in such a manner?
I live in sunny California. I've watched this happen first hand. Well meaning liberals choke industry with taxes and regulation, and industry just shrugs and relocates. What are you going to do Bymidew? Force them at gun point to stick around?
(If this is the "Job Creation" the rightwingers are always gassing about, I think we can do without it.)
Actually, this is the "illegal immigrants taking our jobs" that the rightwingers are always gassing about.
Remove the illegal immigrant from the situation and you'd have people (who are currently living entirely on welfare) doing that job, making minimum wage, and living off their own money instead of taxpayer dollars.
(If this is the "Job Creation" the rightwingers are always gassing about, I think we can do without it.)
Actually, this is the "illegal immigrants taking our jobs" that the rightwingers are always gassing about.
Remove the illegal immigrant from the situation and you'd have people (who are currently living entirely on welfare) doing that job, making minimum wage, and living off their own money instead of taxpayer dollars.
Yeah, I'm sure that gal forced her way in their house at bazooka-point and MADE them hire her to sleep in a closet and work for starvation wages.
(If this is the "Job Creation" the rightwingers are always gassing about, I think we can do without it.)
Actually, this is the "illegal immigrants taking our jobs" that the rightwingers are always gassing about.
Remove the illegal immigrant from the situation and you'd have people (who are currently living entirely on welfare) doing that job, making minimum wage, and living off their own money instead of taxpayer dollars.
Yeah, I'm sure that gal forced her way in their house at bazooka-point and MADE them hire her to sleep in a closet and work for starvation wages.
Actually, this is the "illegal immigrants taking our jobs" that the rightwingers are always gassing about.
Remove the illegal immigrant from the situation and you'd have people (who are currently living entirely on welfare) doing that job, making minimum wage, and living off their own money instead of taxpayer dollars.
Yeah, I'm sure that gal forced her way in their house at bazooka-point and MADE them hire her to sleep in a closet and work for starvation wages.
Yeah, 'cause that's totally what I said.
Well, it sounds to me like you're trying to dump all the blame on the Indian gal rather than remember that she was, ya know, HIRED by a bunch of rich people who, unlike her, can't POSSIBLY claim any ignorance.
Indeed, they even exploited her worries about La Migra to keep her a prisoner.
Bymidew: Well, it sounds to me like you're trying to dump all the blame on the Indian gal rather than remember that she was, ya know, HIRED by a bunch of rich people who, unlike her, can't POSSIBLY claim any ignorance.
Indeed, they even exploited her worries about La Migra to keep her a prisoner.
That's a pretty illogical conclusion to jump to.
While she is of course at fault, that in no way detracts from the fault of the woman who (apparently) enslaved her. And while I completely disagree with the idea that she is owed "back wages"--preposterous since she cannot legally be employed here--I certainly think she is owed punitive damages for how she was mistreated.
Vuljatar: Actually, this is the "illegal immigrants taking our jobs" that the rightwingers are always gassing about.
Because of course so many Americans are just queuing up to work for a few cents per hour and be kept under lock and key as slaves...
The real problem is with those millionaires, who won't pay a decent wage. Undercutting $ 4,25 per hour from which people already cannot survive? Household aid here pays at least € 10 per hour, and double that if you have to also wash and dress people. Even Polish immigrants that have been flooding the place here recently won't go much lower than that in their price.
Vuljatar: Actually, this is the "illegal immigrants taking our jobs" that the rightwingers are always gassing about.
Because of course so many Americans are just queuing up to work for a few cents per hour and be kept under lock and key as slaves...
The real problem is with those millionaires, who won't pay a decent wage. Undercutting $ 4,25 per hour from which people already cannot survive? Household aid here pays at least € 10 per hour, and double that if you have to also wash and dress people. Even Polish immigrants that have been flooding the place here recently won't go much lower than that in their price.
If there weren't illegal immigrants doing it for pennies, there'd be legal citizens doing it for minimum wage and actually paying their own way in life instead of living entirely on my tax dollars.
If there weren't illegal immigrants doing it for pennies, there'd be legal citizens doing it for minimum wage and actually paying their own way in life instead of living entirely on my tax dollars.
Sooo... those filthy illegals are SIMULTANEOUSLY doing jobs for pennies AND living entirely on your tax dollars. Despite the fact illegal immigrants can't get welfare or most social programs.
If there weren't illegal immigrants doing it for pennies, there'd be legal citizens doing it for minimum wage and actually paying their own way in life instead of living entirely on my tax dollars.
Sooo... those filthy illgeals are SIMULTANEOUSLY doing jobs for pennies AND living entirely on your tax dollars. Despite the fact illegal immigrants can't get welfare or most social programs.
Fucking economics, how does it work?
They get better medical attention in California for free, off of U.S tax dollar money or as medical write-offs. So yes, they do get some services that even we U.S citizens cannot!
Also you have this: The federal Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) mandates that U.S. hospitals with emergency-room services must treat anyone who requires care, including illegal aliens.
xpowderx: They get better medical attention in California for free, off of U.S tax dollar money or as medical write-offs. So yes, they do get some services that even we U.S citizens cannot!
Also you have this: The federal Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) mandates that U.S. hospitals with emergency-room services must treat anyone who requires care, including illegal aliens.
Those liberal FIENDS. They should let the filthy illegal scum DIE IN THE STREETS, like decent people!
9_9
Now that I think about it, I wonder what the Rich Folks in the OP would have done if their house-slave got sick? I'll bet they had a BIG garden that could always use a little more fertilizer....
I realize this is blasphemy to the richwingers, but maybe we could try putting the screws on the people HIRING illegals, rather than the illegals? Once they start going to prison I expect the demand for undocumented workers will start drying up.
xpowderx: They get better medical attention in California for free, off of U.S tax dollar money or as medical write-offs. So yes, they do get some services that even we U.S citizens cannot!
Also you have this: The federal Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) mandates that U.S. hospitals with emergency-room services must treat anyone who requires care, including illegal aliens.
Those liberal FIENDS. They should let the filthy illegal scum DIE IN THE STREETS, like decent people!
9_9
Now that I think about it, I wonder what the Rich Folks in the OP would have done if their house-slave got sick? I'll bet they had a BIG garden that could always use a little more fertilizer....
I realize this is blasphemy to the richwingers, but maybe we could try putting the screws on the people HIRING illegals, rather than the illegals? Once they start going to prison I expect the demand for undocumented workers will start drying up.
How about we just send the illegals back to the country of origin and not hire illegals. Like most other countries outside the U.S do when they are caught. That kills two pigeons with one stone! Then we wouldnt have to have these arguments. If anyone is serious. That is what should be done.
How about we just send the illegals back to the country of origin and not hire illegals. Like most other countries outside the U.S do when they are caught. That kills two pigeons with one stone! Then we wouldnt have to have these arguments. If anyone is serious. That is what should be done.
That's a BRILLIANT plan. I think the US has ONLY been trying it for the last 100 years, so I'm sure the fact it's not working is only because it hasn't been tried HARD ENOUGH yet.
You know, I've been sourly joking for quite a while that the Republican's master plan to stop illegal Mexican immigration was to make the US worse than Mexico, but I didn't think they'd actually succeed. Mission Accomplished, I guess...
Vuljatar: If there weren't illegal immigrants doing it for pennies, there'd be legal citizens doing it for minimum wage and actually paying their own way in life instead of living entirely on my tax dollars.
Unlikely, because if they were willing to pay that amount, they wouldn't have bothered to hire illegal immigrants in the first place. The only reason that can happen is because they don't want to pay a minimum wage to begin with.
xpowderx: Also you have this: The federal Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) mandates that U.S. hospitals with emergency-room services must treat anyone who requires care, including illegal aliens.
Actually it's kind of sad such a rule is needed to avoid hospital being so greed-obsessed that they'd otherwise let people die.
Still, if anything, Americans want to criminalise illegal aliens further instead of give them rights, so they support funneling tax payers dollars to the accounts of wealthy business owners and millionaires, through illegal workers.
Then again, it's been known since the 90's American states help pay for illegal workers so that companies, especially agrarian ones, can make fatter profits. I guess the voters get exactly what they vote for.
If there weren't illegal immigrants doing it for pennies, there'd be legal citizens doing it for minimum wage and actually paying their own way in life instead of living entirely on my tax dollars.
Sooo... those filthy illegals are SIMULTANEOUSLY doing jobs for pennies AND living entirely on your tax dollars. Despite the fact illegal immigrants can't get welfare or most social programs.
Fucking economics, how does it work?
Fucking reading comprehension, how does it work?
I thought I couldn't make it any clearer, but I underestimated your ability to twist my words. The legal citizens who live entirely on welfare are the ones who, in the absence of cheap illegal labor, would be doing those jobs for minimum wage and paying their own way in the world.
xpowderx: Have you seen any poor people creating jobs?
Well, yes. Firstly, it's the little people who ultimately buy most of the goods.
Secondly, the little people are the ones who have money in banks, which gets loaned to businesses. The rich have most of their wealth in shares of companies which already made it.
Thirdly, the rich use various measures to avoid paying tax, while the little people have to pay. The government then uses that money to subsidize various industries, build infrastructure and employ a lot of people directly.
Blablahb: Unlikely, because if they were willing to pay that amount, they wouldn't have bothered to hire illegal immigrants in the first place.
They hire illegal immigrants because they are able to get away with it. If there were no illegals to hire, you can be damn sure that they'd be paying legal citizens minimum wage for it. $7.25/hr isn't much, and it's certainly not so much that the rich would start making their own beds rather than shell out.
They hire illegal immigrants because they are able to get away with it. If there were no illegals to hire, you can be damn sure that they'd be paying legal citizens minimum wage for it. $7.25/hr isn't much, and it's certainly not so much that the rich would start making their own beds rather than shell out.
Maybe, maybe not.
Some businesses are potentially close to the profit line, and having to shell out full amounts for citizens could push them over into unprofitability, at which point they'd shut down.
However, I don't think it's just a money issue. Part of the reason plenty of the unemployed are unemployed is because they have one or more 'issues' that render them to a greater or lesser extent unemployable. Illegal immigrants, however, are generally in the West to work both hard and well for a few years in order to make a bundle they can take home.
The other potential issue of course is geography. An unemployed citizen in Indiana is no good for a job in New Mexico; it'd be nice if they moved, but given their situation (particularly dependents) it may be more trouble than it's worth.
The only reason companies "offshore" is because people like you have made it more difficult to do business in this country. Hell, with all the anti-business rhetoric spewed out from the left, I don't blame companies for taking their manufacturing to places that appreciate it more.
Bullshit.
We could offer every CEO a zero tax rate and their choice of supermodel concubines, and they STILL wouldn't move jobs back to the US, not until Americans can figure out how to make a living on a 12-hour shift that pays 15$ a week.
You do realize that the United States still leads the world in the manufacturing of heavy machinery, computers, and aircraft right?
Let me tell you a story. A little while back the crown jewel of aviation companies, Boeing, constructed a factory in South Carolina. It would have created thousands of jobs for locals living there. It was shutdown by the National Labors Relation board for having the audacity to build a factory in a right to work state. Why the hell would Boeing open another factory when the government behaves in such a manner?
I live in sunny California. I've watched this happen first hand. Well meaning liberals choke industry with taxes and regulation, and industry just shrugs and relocates. What are you going to do Bymidew? Force them at gun point to stick around?
He's got a point though, The average American worker can't compete with third world labour costs, and education and training in the poorest parts of the world are catching up. The skills needed for the manufacure of computers/airplanes etc. are more widespread now. Business being business is going to use this fact as an excuse to lower wages over time... the problem is how low will they go?
Vuljatar: They hire illegal immigrants because they are able to get away with it. If there were no illegals to hire, you can be damn sure that they'd be paying legal citizens minimum wage for it. $7.25/hr isn't much, and it's certainly not so much that the rich would start making their own beds rather than shell out.
But that leads to two possible courses of action which influence what that which you said actually means:
-does that mean you're in favour of giving illegals labour rights to they can get normal pay, eliminating unfair competition and the reason illegals are cheaper to begin with? -does it mean you favour the approach of exploiting them, ferrying tax dollars to rich people's accounts through illegal labour, and then just deporting those people like there were objects that deserve no humane treatment?
Vuljatar: They hire illegal immigrants because they are able to get away with it. If there were no illegals to hire, you can be damn sure that they'd be paying legal citizens minimum wage for it. $7.25/hr isn't much, and it's certainly not so much that the rich would start making their own beds rather than shell out.
But that leads to two possible courses of action which influence what that which you said actually means:
-does that mean you're in favour of giving illegals labour rights to they can get normal pay, eliminating unfair competition and the reason illegals are cheaper to begin with? -does it mean you favour the approach of exploiting them, ferrying tax dollars to rich people's accounts through illegal labour, and then just deporting those people like there were objects that deserve no humane treatment?
How, exactly, do you figure? I am in favor of:
Fining the hell out of every company and every individual who employs or has employed illegal labor.
Deporting all illegal immigrants.
And making an actual effort to secure the border to stem the tide.
We need not acknowledge it because it doesn't exist. Its a false narrative you and your side have created in order to pit people against each other.