Sixteen Afghan civilians killed in rogue U.S. attack

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First accidentally burning Korans...then some guy snaps and starts shooting Afghan civilians. Its almost like we are trying to make sure the Afghans hate us before we leave. I suppose that is one way to get them united (against us) and that would actually be somewhat clever IF IT WERE INTENTIONAL!

Seekster:
First accidentally burning Korans...

How do you accidentally burn something that is seen as such an important symbol like that? I mean, most people are pretty careful not to burn a bible

taciturnCandid:

Seekster:
First accidentally burning Korans...

How do you accidentally burn something that is seen as such an important symbol like that? I mean, most people are pretty careful not to burn a bible

It was taken out of the prison library and set aside because prisoners were writing messages to each other in it (which sound like defacing the Koran to me but maybe it only counts if infidels do it, I don't know). It was accidentally taken along with a bunch of trash somehow and you can picture the scene. Bunch of Americans and Afghans tossing stuff into a fire to dispose of it. An American absent minded tosses in another book. One of the Afghans sees this and goes "wait a tick". Then people get KILLED because of that mistake. Seriously, what the hell? Its not like they drew a stick figure of Allah or anything.

First burning Koran's and now this. I get the feeling Afghanistan is lost. The few Afghanis who don't hate us will do now.

What a waste of time and soldiers.

Well, its over people. We failed to rescue them. My only regret is we can not fly out the women, children, and thier families and leave behind the enraged warlords to kill eachother off.

We really, really, really just gotta get the hell out of there.

Lyndon B. Johnson: "The ultimate victory will depend on the hearts and minds of the people who actually live out there".

"Those who forget history" and all that.

So, America, over 10 years on...was it all worth it?

Seekster:
...and that would actually be somewhat clever IF IT WERE INTENTIONAL!

Amen!

BOOM headshot65:
Well, its over people. We failed to rescue them. My only regret is we can not fly out the women, children, and thier families and leave behind the enraged warlords to kill eachother off.

I saw your user name as the last person to reply to this topic in the main forum, then immediately heard the cry of the counterstrike enthusiast while picturing him leaping about Afghan houses. If I'm going to hell for this I'm going to drag you with me. =(

Amnestic:

So, America, over 10 years on...was it all worth it?

Wow. It has been 10 years already? That is a year less than half my life. That is scary to think about

Amnestic:

So, America, over 10 years on...was it all worth it?

Id say yes, on the sheer fact that we actually tried to help save people.

This is starting to smell a lot like pre-independence India. It's no longer about minor slights. It's just about being occupied and just wanting the occupiers out. Every small spark turns into a conflagration. Better to just cut now and send in special forces for the actual camps rather than trying and failing to make it a functioning country.

BOOM headshot65:

Amnestic:

So, America, over 10 years on...was it all worth it?

Id say yes, on the sheer fact that we actually tried to help save people.

You fuckin' kidding me? We didn't go to Afghanistan to save anybody. We went there, allegedly, to get Osama Bin Laden. Of course, President Larry the Cable Guy dicked that one up bad enough that it took a decade.

Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Some messed up shit happening over there.
To be fair, what's going on now is probably still better than what happened during the Taliban days. But yeah, this will get ugly. Probably the end for any real cooperation between the US and Afghanistan, and everyone's just waiting for the end at this point.

The captcha is "blinded by science". Is the computer trying to tell me about some huge conspiracy?

Wow, an investigation. I wonder how long till he is acquitted? Few months?

taciturnCandid:

Amnestic:

So, America, over 10 years on...was it all worth it?

Wow. It has been 10 years already? That is a year less than half my life. That is scary to think about

Began October 7, 2001. Almost 10 and a half years or so now. Started when I was 11 so...yeah, about the same.

BOOM headshot65:

Id say yes, on the sheer fact that we actually tried to help save people.

I thought it was to get Osama bin Laden? You know, revenge for the September 11th attacks?

Tyler Perry:

You fuckin' kidding me? We didn't go to Afghanistan to save anybody. We went there, allegedly, to get Osama Bin Laden. Of course, President Larry the Cable Guy dicked that one up bad enough that it took a decade.

Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Amnestic:

I thought it was to get Osama bin Laden? You know, revenge for the September 11th attacks?

We went into Afganistan to kill Bin Laden, yes. Saving the population of Afganistan was a bonus. If we had killed Bin Laden on D-Day+1, I still would have said we stay to save the Afgans from the Taliban.

BOOM headshot65:
Saving the population of Afganistan was a bonus.

Kinda telling that no one gave a shit about the population of Aghanistan living under the Taliban until you needed to invade anyway, huh?

Amnestic:

BOOM headshot65:
Saving the population of Afganistan was a bonus.

Kinda telling that no one gave a shit about the population of Aghanistan living under the Taliban until you needed to invade anyway, huh?

I was 8 when we invaded. If I had been old enough to know who the taliban where or even where Afganistan was, I would have been screaming to invade, just as I am now with Syria, Darfur, N. Korea, China, Bahrain, etc.

BOOM headshot65:

I was 8 when we invaded. If I had been old enough to know who the taliban where or even where Afganistan was, I would have been screaming to invade, just as I am now with Syria, Darfur, N. Korea, China, Bahrain, etc.

lolwut. Are you serious? You think America should invade China?

Amnestic:

BOOM headshot65:

I was 8 when we invaded. If I had been old enough to know who the taliban where or even where Afganistan was, I would have been screaming to invade, just as I am now with Syria, Darfur, N. Korea, China, Bahrain, etc.

lolwut. Are you serious? You think America should invade China?

No, thats nuts. I would only condon a war with China if they outright attacked us or one of our allies. But thier opression of Tibet HAS...TO...STOP! One way or another.

BOOM headshot65:

I was 8 when we invaded. If I had been old enough to know who the taliban where or even where Afganistan was, I would have been screaming to invade, just as I am now with Syria, Darfur, N. Korea, China, Bahrain, etc.

...

China. You want to invade CHINA.

Are you out of your flippin' mind?

EDIT: I see you responded to Amnestic as I was posting. My point stands.

If you were 8 when we invaded Afghanistan, that would make you what, 19 or 20 now? Suit up, partner! Head down to the recruiter's office and sign those forms. Otherwise, pipe down about wanting to invade every country under the sun, keyboard kommando.

Tyler Perry:

EDIT: I see you responded to Amnestic as I was posting. My point stands.

If you were 8 when we invaded Afghanistan, that would make you what, 19 or 20 now? Suit up, partner! Head down to the recruiter's office and sign those forms. Otherwise, pipe down about wanting to invade every country under the sun, keyboard kommando.

I am 18. As for what I am doing, I am not joining the military. I have various health problems that would get me turned away (flat feet, aspergers sydrome, hypersensitive hearing, etc). But I am still going to serve my country. I am thinking police/sheriff, fire department, trucker/ railroad engineer, or construction. As for "invading every country under the sun." I dont want us to invade them all...just ones with dictators and genocide. Plus, I need to know something before I say the next thing. How many soldiers do you know on a personal level?

taciturnCandid:
How do you accidentally burn something that is seen as such an important symbol like that? I mean, most people are pretty careful not to burn a bible

17-19 year old barely educated privates aren't going to comprehend either Arabic or Pasthun, I'd imagine.

Tyler Perry:
You fuckin' kidding me? We didn't go to Afghanistan to save anybody. We went there, allegedly, to get Osama Bin Laden. Of course, President Larry the Cable Guy dicked that one up bad enough that it took a decade.

People seemed happy enough to have us when I was there. There were roads and schools being built, and the scumbags who are in charge are slight lesser scumbags compared to what used to rule there.

Profit I'd say. Anything more would be unrealistic. You can't catapult a country from the Stone Age to modern times overnight, not even in a few years.

BOOM headshot65:
How many soldiers do you know on a personal level?

A hell of a lot more than you do, that's for sure. About 3/4 of my college fraternity was ROTC, and all of them have done tours in Iraq and/or Afghanistan. I don't see how that's relevant.

Blablahb:
People seemed happy enough to have us when I was there. There were roads and schools being built, and the scumbags who are in charge are slight lesser scumbags compared to what used to rule there.

I dunno if I'd say 'slightly lesser', they're just a different type of scumbag. So the people of Afghanistan have had their theocrats replaced with kleptocrats... yay for them. Worse still is that the kleptocrats are, where not the same individuals, the same sort of scum who fucked post-Soviet Invasion Afghanistan so badly that people started thinking something like the Taliban was a good idea.

Also, you're right about a lot of regular Afghanistanis being quite happy to have foreign nations involved in their reconstruction and security... Especially in the reconstruction. People may bitch about foreign aid infrastruction and construction contracts going mostly to large foreign contracters but they also know that despite that being the more expensive way (on paper) of going about things it's also, as many of the locals will admit, the only way the projects will actually be done instead of half the materials and cash being siphoned off for some prick to build himself a modest little palace in one of Kabul's secure districts.

You can't catapult a country from the Stone Age to modern times overnight, not even in a few years.

Which is unfortunate because it's certainly been done in the opposite direction but then destruction is always quicker than creation.

Amnestic:

BOOM headshot65:
Saving the population of Afganistan was a bonus.

Kinda telling that no one gave a shit about the population of Aghanistan living under the Taliban until you needed to invade anyway, huh?

The US started it in the first place under Carter. US Supported, trained and supplied the Mujahedeen, Clinton bombed Afghan children, then people act surprised when they retaliated.

The US should have never been in Afghanistan in the first place, and they would never have given the US another thought. US went in and stirred the pot then betrayed them. If the US had just behaved honorably in the first place many more people would still be alive right now. It is a terribly tragedy that never should have happened.

Do not forget:
US with Mujahedeen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaiJtLrEwVU
Clinton Bombings
http://thirdtablet.com/InfiniteJustUs/chomsky_on_sudan_bombing.html
http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/SUDAN/sudan.html

taciturnCandid:
Sixteen Afghan civilians, including nine children, were shot dead in what witnesses described as a nighttime massacre on Sunday near a U.S. base in southern Afghanistan, and one U.S. soldier was in custody.

I wonder how the U.S. will recover from this. It will be hard for Afgans to trust the U.S. after this.

Afghans never trusted the US in the first place and I wouldn't expect them to anytime soon. The clans have repeatedly banned together in history for only one thing, to fight any outsiders that invaded. They did this against everyone who has attempted to rule Afghanistan. As soon as the outsiders leave they go back to fighting amongst themselves again. That is the way of life there. I have no idea what they expected to accomplish there in the first place.

Honestly, after the outsiders leave, they will do their best to remove all traces of them and continue as they always have.

BOOM headshot65:

Amnestic:

So, America, over 10 years on...was it all worth it?

Id say yes, on the sheer fact that we actually tried to help save people.

Intention: still not magic.

You can't "save" people you do not understand from problems that you do not understand. In both Iraq and Afghanistan the objectives were never clear, the parameters were never clear, we weren't requested to be there, our massive, massive reconstruction money generally went down a funnel to help Afghanistan's 1% (while children picked at giant trash piles outside mansions constructed with US money that *don't even have plumbing*, because the money didn't go to infrastructure), our entire attitude was basically "we're whitey America, so therefore we'll be greeted as saviors" and we went in increasingly more frantic circles the more it became clear that this is plain never going to be the case. Bush went from "I'm against nation-building" to engaging in the most grandiose nation-building in the most ham-handed way possible, and Obama continued this exercise in stupidity for far longer than he should have.

And here we go again...

Afghanistan Shootings: Taliban Vow Revenge Against 'Sick-Minded American Savages'

In a statement on their website, the fundamentalist Islamist group described the attack as committed by "sick minded American savages" vowing to "take revenge from the invaders and the savage murderers for every single martyr" news agency AFP reports.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/03/12/afghanistan-shootings-taliban-revenge-_n_1338294.html?1331534019&ref=uk

Polarity27:
Intention: still not magic.

Exactly.

Polarity27:
You can't "save" people you do not understand from problems that you do not understand. In both Iraq and Afghanistan the objectives were never clear, the parameters were never clear, we weren't requested to be there, our massive, massive reconstruction money generally went down a funnel to help Afghanistan's 1% (while children picked at giant trash piles outside mansions constructed with US money that *don't even have plumbing*, because the money didn't go to infrastructure), our entire attitude was basically "we're whitey America, so therefore we'll be greeted as saviors" and we went in increasingly more frantic circles the more it became clear that this is plain never going to be the case. Bush went from "I'm against nation-building" to engaging in the most grandiose nation-building in the most ham-handed way possible, and Obama continued this exercise in stupidity for far longer than he should have.

I'm not sure that's true. I suspect a lot of people in the know could see what was going to happen (hell, I called it when I was 18), they just didn't care.

...

In any case, what the situation is like now isn't that relevant, it's when its all done and dusted that matters. If people get fed up and look around for an out, we'll start seeing the usual peace deals and power sharing arrangements made with the sort of people the war was nominally to overthrow.

I don't think people understand that Afghanistan, like many countries in the region, is not like a country that you and I know.

Many people assume that they attack soldiers because they do not want us there, but that is only one side of the story.

The real story involves the 20 year civil war that Afghanistan has now been embroiled in. After the Soviets left there was a power vacuum and various factions, backed by Iran, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan who were looking to put to power someone under their influence, have been fighting it out ever since. The Taliban that were recently removed gained power in the mid 90s by taking Kabul but the reality of the situation is that they did not control the entire country, much like the current Afghan government does not control the entire country.

Afghanistan is made up of these factions, tribes if you will, and they are still fighting it out. To them the soldiers are just foreigners fighting for the enemy.

The US and allies are fighting on the side of the current government that gained power after the fall of Taliban Kabul. The factions that were previously fighting the Taliban for control, but are not part of the new government, are still fighting for control. In their eyes they are the ones who should be ruling and when you have been at war for the last 30+ years it becomes the only method you know of getting what you want.

Quite frankly I think the entire area is screwed up to the point where we need to go back to the drawing board and divide the country up along cultural lines and have it operate somewhat like the EU in terms of governance.

thaluikhain:

Polarity27:
You can't "save" people you do not understand from problems that you do not understand. In both Iraq and Afghanistan the objectives were never clear, the parameters were never clear, we weren't requested to be there, our massive, massive reconstruction money generally went down a funnel to help Afghanistan's 1% (while children picked at giant trash piles outside mansions constructed with US money that *don't even have plumbing*, because the money didn't go to infrastructure), our entire attitude was basically "we're whitey America, so therefore we'll be greeted as saviors" and we went in increasingly more frantic circles the more it became clear that this is plain never going to be the case. Bush went from "I'm against nation-building" to engaging in the most grandiose nation-building in the most ham-handed way possible, and Obama continued this exercise in stupidity for far longer than he should have.

I'm not sure that's true. I suspect a lot of people in the know could see what was going to happen (hell, I called it when I was 18), they just didn't care.

Which part isn't true?

Yes, I think there are plenty of people who knew what was going to happen, I just don't think they were the ones empowered to make policy there. My basic point is that any kind of "we're going to go in and save these people from themselves" is a failure from the word go because the leaders of such efforts don't understand "these people" and don't bother to listen to them. The people who do understand and listen aren't the ones giving the orders, and aren't heard by the ones who are.

Danyal:
Afghanistan Shootings: Taliban Vow Revenge Against 'Sick-Minded American Savages'

Sick minded savages? Yea they are the one to speak.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/5153056/Taliban-executes-14-year-old-girl-for-planning-to-elope.html

Polarity27:
Which part isn't true?

Yes, I think there are plenty of people who knew what was going to happen, I just don't think they were the ones empowered to make policy there. My basic point is that any kind of "we're going to go in and save these people from themselves" is a failure from the word go because the leaders of such efforts don't understand "these people" and don't bother to listen to them. The people who do understand and listen aren't the ones giving the orders, and aren't heard by the ones who are.

I'm not sure that the "saving people from themselves" thing was ever believed by the people in charge, it's just a nice agreeable slogan to tell your supporters. Likewise the people making the policy decisions, jsut because they don't care doesn't mean they don't understand.

However, there's no way to actually prove that one way or the other, and most likely it'd be a combination.

I personally believe that a lot of good could have been done with the right sort of people at the helm, but there wasn't any real chance of that happening.

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