A personal plea from a 'Chrstian' gamer

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Polarity27:
stuff

This is a really good post, and it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for taking the time to post this.

Pyramid Head:
Christian's are like any other group. They have their good apples, bad apples, and psychotics. Yes you can argue that the faith has a spotted history, but i can safely say quite literally no group over 100 years old exists without at least one skeleton in it's closet. And besides, people like the current pope or the Oslo shooter do not represent all Christians. They're individuals, you should approach them as such.

Or to put it simply, i don't discriminate based on religious faith because like i said, all groups have their demons and shouldn't be judged on what a few nutjobs say. Especially since in my opinion people who preach hate aren't really Christians.
Or maybe that's just what i say as someone brought up by a Christian hippie. Either way, you're free to believe what you want, i have no problems with you so long as you respect the choices of other people relating to their faith.

I agree that every sizeable group has assholes in it. I really, really do *not* agree that it's a "few nutjobs" who are problematic, and I also really don't agree that it's what the "nutjobs" *say* that's the problem. There is a large group of Christian ideologues who are well-funded, politically influential, and actually powerful who aren't just saying disagreeable things, they're actively working to take people's rights away. And they're not just working toward this, it's happening. Yes, it's not happening on the scale they want it to, no, they're not getting everything they want. Yes, they've had some powerful defeats with marriage equality being passed in several states, and with DADT being repealed. But they're getting enough of what they want to scare the hell out of a lot of us.

If it truly was a case of a ton of actively allied, helpful Christians being treated poorly because of a handful of loudmouths with offensive words and no substance, we wouldn't be here having this conversation right now. It's a case of a few actively allied, helpful Christians, a disproportionately powerful ideological wing that is actively harming people, and a wide, silent center who are personally disturbed by the harmful wing (that's good) but say relatively little and continue to go to churches whose funding picture aids the harmful wing and which personally aren't welcoming to LGBT parishioners. I can't diminish or dismiss the accomplishments and the aid of those churches that stand on the front lines with LGBT people, non-Christians, and women's rights groups to fight against this cancer infecting their religion. Every major church-state issue, every pro-LGBT initiative, every pro-choice initiative usually has some church support. There are fantastic Christians who use their enormous privilege to do a lot of good, and I'm not denying they exist or defaming the good they do. But they're the minority, not the "nutjobs". And I think most of them understand why some people are wary of Christians, why some people are angry at Christians.

Stagnant:

Polarity27:
stuff

This is a really good post, and it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for taking the time to post this.

TY for that, I'm glad it was helpful.

Volf:

Polarity27:

So... you've suddenly decided you're supportive? Could have fooled me.

I was always supportive.

Polarity27:

Yes, I'm serious. No, it's not limited to LGBT issues-- it would be every bit as obnoxious if I wandered into a thread about racism and told a bunch of Black posters "please don't be mad at us all, not all white people are like that! Some of us try really hard to shout down racists!" They'd be completely justified to think I'm cookie-hunting, and to think I'm a pain in the ass.

But why push away somebody who has good intentions, and who may possibly want to help/join/support you?

Some might look at it as pushing people away, if they're the type to search for reasons to get offended and therefore comfortably disregard the substance of the post.

A more helpful, productive interpretation would be: "We appreciate the sentiment, but you're not really helping the situation by saying those things here. You can help by saying them over there".

But that implies that they have an opportunity, perhaps even a mild obligation if they are to put their money where their mouth is, to do something about it, and for some that just sounds too much like work. Far easier to look for a reason to get offended and, having found one, pass the post off as pushing people away, and use that to justify inaction.

McMullen:

Volf:

Polarity27:

So... you've suddenly decided you're supportive? Could have fooled me.

I was always supportive.

Polarity27:

Yes, I'm serious. No, it's not limited to LGBT issues-- it would be every bit as obnoxious if I wandered into a thread about racism and told a bunch of Black posters "please don't be mad at us all, not all white people are like that! Some of us try really hard to shout down racists!" They'd be completely justified to think I'm cookie-hunting, and to think I'm a pain in the ass.

But why push away somebody who has good intentions, and who may possibly want to help/join/support you?

Some might look at it as pushing people away, if they're the type to search for reasons to get offended and therefore comfortably disregard the substance of the post.

A more helpful, productive interpretation would be: "We appreciate the sentiment, but you're not really helping the situation by saying those things here. You can help by saying them over there".

But that implies that they have an opportunity, perhaps even a mild obligation if they are to put their money where their mouth is, to do something about it, and for some that just sounds too much like work. Far easier to look for a reason to get offended and, having found one, pass the post off as pushing people away, and use that to justify inaction.

I'm merely pointing out how Polarity27's attitude isn't helpful to the situation. I'm not saying that she can't contribute, just that her current attitude isn't helpful

Katatori-kun:
snip.

Listen. I'm going to set aside the argument of "what angelblaze said". I quoted you specific passages from her original post, and told you how I interpreted what she said, and what I felt the implications of those statements were. You want to disagree with my interpretation, that's fine. You want to call me a liar? That's not.

This bridge is burnt. You've already decided to write off any argument I make, and frankly I have no further reason to give you the time of day.

I do want to address one thing though:

You accuse me of being biased.

I respond "Hell yes I am".

If every group were equally harmed by unfair judgements, or harmed in the same way, pursuing a policy of combating all unfair judgement in every case would be a noble goal. However all groups are not unfairly judged in the same ways, and not all groups are harmed equally by those judgements.

If a religious person wants to stop being judged unfairly all they have to do is turn off their computer and step outside. They can go back into the real world, where religiosity is the default assumption of belief. Where more than 85% of all people hold religious beliefs. Where the standing cultural assumption is that people who are religious are not just good people, but better people than those who aren't.

A gay person probably doesn't have that same luxury. They aren't even free of (more often than not) religiously motivated prejudice here on this board, where the population is predominantly liberal, atheist, and generally self-identifies as progressive, (though it shows precious little actual progressiveness on a lot of issues). They don't likely have the privilege of walking outside and being free of judgement and anger and hatred.

In most cases, speaking out against unfair prejudice is valuable and useful, because it protects the marginalized from being drowned out by the voice of the majority.

In this case, it has the opposite effect. Speaking out against the anger (unfair as it may be) of gay posters on this board has the effect of silencing their perspectives, further marginalizing an already under-represented and marginalized group in favour of protecting the feelings of an incredibly powerful and privileged class. It derails discussion of the perspectives of gay individuals by making them couch their arguments in terms that are acceptable to the majority, and it allows the religious majority to dictate the tone of discussion for any LGBT issues involving the religious.

It's not that I don't know that religious people can be different. It's that, to be frank, I don't care. There are bigger fish to fry than making sure that the nice Christians out there aren't lumped in with the shitwizards, when we're talking about the grievances LGBT posters might have with those shitwizards.

I'm permanently leaving this topic now, because fuck pretty much everything that's happened here.

See Spot Run:

It's not that I don't know that religious people can be different. It's that, to be frank, I don't care. There are bigger fish to fry than making sure that the nice Christians out there aren't lumped in with the shitwizards, when we're talking about the grievances LGBT posters might have with those shitwizards.

ok, so its wrong to be hateful and bigoted to the LGBT community, but when it comes to bigotry directed at the religious community(in this case Christian) your response is "it doesn't matter, there are more important things to worry about". Glad to see how hypocritical you are on this subject.

Oh, and by the way, you're derailing this thread(something that you seem to be very opposed to).

As for christians bullying gay kids into suicide and not doing anything good for people isn't true. I've seen gay kids bullied by people who would never call themselves christians, and they would do it incessantly until someone stopped them. And christians have done countless wonderful things like food and blood drives, charities, run homeless shelters and countless other things. Hell, the amount of times people say the F word astounds me. But it isn't just christians persecuting gays and they aren't some terrible organization like the nazis.

See Spot Run:

It's not that I don't know that religious people can be different. It's that, to be frank, I don't care. There are bigger fish to fry than making sure that the nice Christians out there aren't lumped in with the shitwizards, when we're talking about the grievances LGBT posters might have with those shitwizards.

That's a pathetic cop out. "There are bigger fish to fry" when it's not a particularly arduous task to not lump people in. Oh no, you might have to actually think about who you're accusing of what. You might even hurt your finger hitting the backspace button. Such a daunting task, how could posters here possibly have the time to deal with it?

If you can't bother to avoid that it's not that you don't care after being told, it's that you're just being spiteful.

Volf:
ok, so its wrong to be hateful and bigoted to the LGBT community, but when it comes to bigotry directed at the religious community(in this case Christian) your response is "it doesn't matter, there are more important things to worry about". Glad to see how hypocritical you are on this subject.

That's a false equivalency.

Yes, it'd be nice if gay people/whomever were all fine about turning the other cheek and all, but postjudice is not the same as prejudice. Being angry at Christians as a group for hating gay people as a group for no good reason is not the same as hating gay people as a group for no good reason.

Secondly, the scale is very different. Yeah, I get that it hurts feelings to be lumped in with the other christians that destroy lives, but the other christians are destroying lives.

Thirdly, there seems to be the asusmption that "christians" equates to "all christians". Everyone knows that it's not the entirety of christians that persecute gay people. But this is something that comes up over and over, there are more people that will energetically jump in and say "we're not all like that" at every opportunity in lieu of anything else. Now, that doesn't mean that everyone who says that is doing that, or that they are wrong in any case, but it does mean it's going to piss people off. People not putting in a disclaimer everytime they use the word "christian" might be annoying, but living in an unfair society isn't always nice.

Volf:

McMullen:

Volf:
I was always supportive.

But why push away somebody who has good intentions, and who may possibly want to help/join/support you?

Some might look at it as pushing people away, if they're the type to search for reasons to get offended and therefore comfortably disregard the substance of the post.

A more helpful, productive interpretation would be: "We appreciate the sentiment, but you're not really helping the situation by saying those things here. You can help by saying them over there".

But that implies that they have an opportunity, perhaps even a mild obligation if they are to put their money where their mouth is, to do something about it, and for some that just sounds too much like work. Far easier to look for a reason to get offended and, having found one, pass the post off as pushing people away, and use that to justify inaction.

I'm merely pointing out how Polarity27's attitude isn't helpful to the situation. I'm not saying that she can't contribute, just that her current attitude isn't helpful

Honey, if your supportiveness is actually influenced by a call-out on the internet hurting your precious feelings, then your supportiveness was pretty damn fickle in the first place.

Polarity27:

Volf:

McMullen:

Some might look at it as pushing people away, if they're the type to search for reasons to get offended and therefore comfortably disregard the substance of the post.

A more helpful, productive interpretation would be: "We appreciate the sentiment, but you're not really helping the situation by saying those things here. You can help by saying them over there".

But that implies that they have an opportunity, perhaps even a mild obligation if they are to put their money where their mouth is, to do something about it, and for some that just sounds too much like work. Far easier to look for a reason to get offended and, having found one, pass the post off as pushing people away, and use that to justify inaction.

I'm merely pointing out how Polarity27's attitude isn't helpful to the situation. I'm not saying that she can't contribute, just that her current attitude isn't helpful

Honey, if your supportiveness is actually influenced by a call-out on the internet hurting your precious feelings, then your supportiveness was pretty damn fickle in the first place.

Like I said, I'm just commenting on your attitude.

See Spot Run:
You want to call me a liar? That's not.

If you don't like being called a liar, I recommend not lying about what people have said. That will be far more productive for you complaining about being called a liar.

If every group were equally harmed by unfair judgements, or harmed in the same way, pursuing a policy of combating all unfair judgement in every case would be a noble goal. However all groups are not unfairly judged in the same ways, and not all groups are harmed equally by those judgements.

If a religious person wants to stop being judged unfairly all they have to do is turn off their computer and step outside. They can go back into the real world, where religiosity is the default assumption of belief.

What an absurdly shallow argument. The world is not filled with neatly-defined little groups where everyone who is a part of a group gets treated exactly the same as any other member of the group. It's not a magical world where the moment a religious person walks out the door, they get greeted by cheers from every other religious person.

For one thing, try being a Muslim in the US and see how far this nonsensical proposition of yours gets you.

But even being part of a majority does not protect people from bullying. Way back when I was a kid, so before a lot of people on this forum were even aware of atheism and certainly before pricks like Rick Santorum were famous, I saw bullying of religious people by atheists. People don't bully based on world-wide polling, they do it based on their relative positions of strength in their immediate vicinity. So it doesn't matter if 85% of the world's population is religious- if 85% of the people immediately surrounding you are not.

And bullying is always wrong. It doesn't matter which side is doing the bullying. For you to argue otherwise shows a complete lack of moral awareness and a petty desire to advance your own political group at the expense of others. You don't want to stop bullying, you want to become the next bully.

A gay person probably doesn't have that same luxury. They aren't even free of (more often than not) religiously motivated prejudice here on this board, where the population is predominantly liberal, atheist, and generally self-identifies as progressive, (though it shows precious little actual progressiveness on a lot of issues).

No one is free of prejudice anywhere.

They don't likely have the privilege of walking outside and being free of judgement and anger and hatred.

They might, actually. It depends on where they live.

In most cases, speaking out against unfair prejudice is valuable and useful, because it protects the marginalized from being drowned out by the voice of the majority.

In all cases. Right or wrong is not decided by identity. It is decided by morality.

Speaking out against the anger (unfair as it may be) of gay posters on this board has the effect of silencing their perspectives,

How absurd! Correcting a false claim is not silencing a perspective! If your perspective is "everyone who is religious oppresses me," your perspective is objectively wrong. You need to fix it, and the only way you will do that is if you learn. And the only way you will learn is if when you say things that are false, you get told the truth.

further marginalizing an already under-represented and marginalized group in favour of protecting the feelings of an incredibly powerful and privileged class.

You treat gays like they're some kind of wilting flowers that the moment they aren't treated as though they can do no wrong, they will crumble and die. Bullshit. You approach here is no less hurtful to gays than Santorum's.

It derails discussion of the perspectives of gay individuals by making them couch their arguments in terms that are acceptable to the majority, and it allows the religious majority to dictate the tone of discussion for any LGBT issues involving the religious.

Facts are facts. They aren't decided by majorities. If not all Christians persecute gays (and not all Christians do) then it is factually false to claim they do. This isn't a "tone of discussion" issue. It's basic facts. Gays are not mentally challenged. They are every bit as capable of having a mature discussion based on facts as anyone else.

It's not that I don't know that religious people can be different. It's that, to be frank, I don't care.

Then the problem is you. You have decided that morality can be suspended based on the petty political groups you've personally assigned people to. You are wrong.

I'm permanently leaving this topic now, because fuck pretty much everything that's happened here.

Heh, speaking of hysterics.
You know where to not let the door hit you on your way out.

thaluikhain:

Volf:
ok, so its wrong to be hateful and bigoted to the LGBT community, but when it comes to bigotry directed at the religious community(in this case Christian) your response is "it doesn't matter, there are more important things to worry about". Glad to see how hypocritical you are on this subject.

That's a false equivalency.

Yes, it'd be nice if gay people/whomever were all fine about turning the other cheek and all, but postjudice is not the same as prejudice. Being angry at Christians as a group for hating gay people as a group for no good reason is not the same as hating gay people as a group for no good reason.

Secondly, the scale is very different. Yeah, I get that it hurts feelings to be lumped in with the other christians that destroy lives, but the other christians are destroying lives.

Thirdly, there seems to be the asusmption that "christians" equates to "all christians". Everyone knows that it's not the entirety of christians that persecute gay people. But this is something that comes up over and over, there are more people that will energetically jump in and say "we're not all like that" at every opportunity in lieu of anything else. Now, that doesn't mean that everyone who says that is doing that, or that they are wrong in any case, but it does mean it's going to piss people off. People not putting in a disclaimer everytime they use the word "christian" might be annoying, but living in an unfair society isn't always nice.

bigotry is bigotry, you can dress it up however you want but to have an attitude that its ok to generalize all Christians and label them the same after multiple people have pointed out this isn't the case, is bigotry. Spot's attitude that there are "bigger fish to fry" doesn't help much either.

Polarity27:

Pyramid Head:
I try to be civil for once in my life

You bring up a matter of concern

Undoubtedly the right wing maniacs are a problem, but the thing about them is that they're an incredibly small minority. This might be hard to swallow since radio and TV might suggest otherwise, but there are more reasonable Christians than people who could basically be described as objectivist Christians. The problem is that a lot of money exists with the whack-jobs, and they're pretty well organized. The Occupy movement is causing this to change gradually since more people are protesting the abuse of the deranged Christians, but you're right that there are Christian's to keep your eye out for. That said, again, they don't count for a majority of Christians, they're just their own curiously well funded fringe group. Be wary if someone is trying to force their belief down your throat, be wary if their making obscure biblical quotes to try and deter you from seemingly innocent life choices, but otherwise a person identifying themselves as a Christian only alludes to them believing in Christ. It's what they do next that you want to watch out for.

Or to put it simply, you've got some reason to be paranoid, but keep it in check and don't lower yourself to the level of the homophobic racist scumbags that populate the far right fringe who are actively murdering their own religion. As people who actually use the Shift key we have a responsibility to approach people as individuals and learn their story before passing judgment.

Angelblaze:

See Spot Run:

Katatori-kun:
Now you're going too far. Nothing Angelblaze said was anything close to claiming that his feelings as a straight person are more important than what's actually happening to LGBT people. All he did was call on you to attack the people who are guilty of wrongdoing, not the innocent people who happen to be wearing the same color uniform. Is that really too much to ask?

You're kiding right?

Angelblaze making a whole thread, directed at non-christians, that says "don't hate me, I'm not like those other guys", for the sole purpose of assuaging his guilt over the actions of people he associates himself with, had nothing at all to do with making his feelings more important than combatting the mistreatment of LGBT people by the church.

Bullshit.

We are on a message board that has a suprisingly loud anti-gay userbase. If Angelblaze had wanted to stand up against the mistreatment of gay individuals by the christians that do so, there's plenty of damn opportunity to do so, right here.

But instead, he didn't actually GIVE his support to the gay posters on this board. He asked for forgiveness for his associations FROM the gay posters on this board.

And frankly, they haven't got the first fucking reason to give it to him.

I wasn't directing it at non christians. I was directing it towards people who bunch ANY group of people like 'Christians' together. It's just I focused more on the group that I belonged to, furthermore I just returned from the grave (aka, I just logged in after about a year of forgetting my username/password) so I haven't exactly had TIME to jump into this topic, with my school and my own personal hobbies of art and writing getting in the way. The LGBT group has my full support, and I personally apologize to all the gays/bisexuals/transvestites (in fact, ANYONE) that has EVER been mistreated by someone who uses a Christian label or is in fact a Christian.

And no, they don't have a reason nor do they need to give me they're forgiveness (and personally speaking I don't think I've done anything PERSONALLY BAD against them, however I will apologize for my group and apologize if I've done something bad against anyone and never realized it.) Considering that forgiveness is a choice, its up to them whether or not they wish to forgive me and anyone else, Christian or not.

I'm a female btw.

Later today I may start drafting up an anti-anti gay arguement with reasons of how this current situation is affecting other groups of people, including myself. Since everyone is screaming at me that I'm not 'taking a side' or 'attempting to distance' myself let me say that I am personally against the following groups/people: One Million Moms (Throwing up a complete shytstorm about a comic of two gay men who have been separated from each other for a long time finally getting reunited a married instead of speading time to throwing up a shytstorm about the exploitation of woman in video games and other mass media....is just disgusting....I'm sorry for my language but...really?) Scott Lively (An anti gay rights activist that has once called the Gay right movement an evil society bent on destroying the current state of marriage. UGggggh) Westboro Baptist "Church" (Its 6 minutes before I have to get to my next class so I don't think I have time to go indepth with how vile and disgusting this group is to me.) AFTAH (Why are we letting these people wave around their unfounded and DISPROVEN scientific 'facts'?)

I'm going to link the Jimquistion's Anti-anti gay arguement into the main post, along with whatever else I can find to go vocal against these people. I'd also like to send a shotout to an old internet video game buddy of mine named Kossokei (Ali), he was a bisexual... We fell out of contact with each other and I haven't seen him for a while. He could kick my butt in just about any non Time management/tycoon game...I miss his incredibly hialarious jokes and pranks, he was good friend of mine and I hope hes okay.

It's funny the things that the world wide web can find.

I'm absolutely fine, I'm in good health and spirits :] But there's one thing. I don't seem to remember you... Can you give me a hint? I'm pretty sure you would be one of the people who know that my memory isn't worth a dime, heh.

Angelblaze:
Before I begin this rant right before bed I would like to tell you a little bit about myself. I'm a young romance action fantasy writer. I enjoy exploring the darker side of human nature such as human sacrifice and cannibalism in my stories. I'm completely open to people's beliefs, usually adapting them into my own and learning a little bit in the process, sometimes even bettering myself as a human being. Most of my stories contain one or more homosexual relationships, some between people in completely different age groups, some invovling christians and some even going so far as (Fantasy)interacial (human x demon relationships.) I personally find nothing more charming then two people in love with other under the most terrible of circumstances, like ones being abused by their parents and the other one is being hated for their relationship. I'm completely fine with homosexuals and quite honestly, I find myself trusting 'minorities and the LGBT' groups of people (I hate saying it like that because it makes it sound like I'm separating them from humans somehow)more then heterosexual/caucasians.

And I'm a 'Christian'.
I believe in all paths to god, I believe that salvation is free to all. I believe that there will be MANY people in heaven that you and I don't expect to be there since we're constantly told 'this is wrong' and 'that is wrong' even though theres nothing in the bible detailing it as wrong. I believe in god, jesus and the Bible. I believe that each and every word of the Bible is true.

During this time in gaming history where homosexuality is becoming more and more provident...I would like to politely ask you not to bunch me, or 'all christians' in with these 'Family Groups' (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.353496-Family-Values-Groups-Launch-Email-Campaign-Against-BioWare?page=1)and anti gay groups. I DON'T believe being gay/homosexual is a sin, in fact being gay is only a 'sin' in the old testament which most christians don't or shouldn't follow since the rules didn't apply the entire 'jesus died on the cross so all your sins are forgiven if you believe in him' part of the bible.

I'm not saying that 'oh all non christians think bad of us' or 'omgsh generalization!' It's just that I've seen alot of 'Lololol look at this stupid group of morons. Dumb arse CHRISTIAN' comments on ALOT of these different videos and posts, all throughout the internet. (page 2 -_-)

What these people(who use the bible against homosexuals) are doing is trying to find a stable ground to base their baseless arguement on, and what's really depressing about this is that the part of the bible their using technically no longer applies. If it did then we'd all have to kill animals to cleanse our sins and stone everyone for EVERYTHING.

I'm just saying, not everyone is part of these people and not all christians share their....less then polite or reasonable beliefs. I suppose a few bad apples ruin the batch though...

A link to one of the escapist videos that I got up an applauded for.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/5433-Mass-Effect-3-And-The-Case-For-A-Gay-Shepard

ALSO I JUST NOTICED. I SPELLED 'CHRISTIAN' WRONG.
Yay for one moment of immense stupidity
image

Romans 1:27
New International Version (NIV)

27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Homosexuality is a sin. You said you trust in the bible. Romans is new testament by the way.

there is also only one path to heaven. John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Polarity27:

Volf:

Polarity27:

Yes, I'm serious. No, it's not limited to LGBT issues-- it would be every bit as obnoxious if I wandered into a thread about racism and told a bunch of Black posters "please don't be mad at us all, not all white people are like that! Some of us try really hard to shout down racists!" They'd be completely justified to think I'm cookie-hunting, and to think I'm a pain in the ass.

But why push away somebody who has good intentions, and who may possibly want to help/join/support you?

Because intention isn't magic. Let me put it this way-- it's a bit like asking your parents for praise and an extra allowance because you did your chores. Doing your chores is the bare minimum that's expected of you. What the OP, and other moderate-to-liberal Christians are saying is that they are Christians and they support LGBTQ people, they think we deserve all of the rights that everyone else enjoys, and that we're actually people. If that's especially praise-worthy, that says a lot of things about Christians, and none of it good. That's how people *should* treat other people, it shouldn't be marked out as special.

She's basically saying "hi, I'm a Christian, and I'm not an asshole!" You pretty much have to be surrounded by a lot of assholes for that sentence construction to even make sense. Let me try it this way-- tell me if you think this sentence is weird or not. "Hi, I'm a cabinet-maker, and I'm not an asshole!" I think that would get a lot of confusion. "Umm... yay? Why would anyone think you're an asshole?" Because there aren't a lot of loud cabinet-makers being assholes, you wouldn't have any particular assumption about a cabinet-maker one way or the other. I'd say that if there are so many assholes in whatever group you're in that you need to make a point of distinguishing yourself as not one, the group has a problem. By extension, *you* have a problem. My point is to simply say that if your group is that full of problem people, and you truly care about supporting the people that the problem people are aiming their vitriol at, you'd worry less about how those people feel about you (your feelings and reputation) and more about the actual harm that the problem people are doing in your name. In other words, it should be about the people being harmed, not your (general you, not specifically you) feelings being hurt.

And I say that as a member and former member of several groups full of assholes. :)

I saw that post on page six...and I take back what I said here. Should have read all the way through the pages, my bad.

Mr.logic:

Angelblaze:
Snip

Romans 1:27
New International Version (NIV)

27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Homosexuality is a sin. You said you trust in the bible. Romans is new testament by the way.

there is also only one path to heaven. John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Do you consider homosexuality as sexuality gone too far? If not, then quoting Paul isn't going to help you, because that is precisely the worldview he is speaking from. Not to mention you said you wanted to live like Jesus, who did not say this line.

And not all Christians agree about that last bit. Of course, if they got to define themselves internally, we'd have thousands of the one-true-Christianity(tm).

Living like Jesus.

Matthew 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect

2 Timothy3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

John 8:31-32
"So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

1 Peter 2:21-22
"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth." (KJV)

1 John 2:4-6
"If someone claims, "I know him well!" but doesn't keep his commandments, he's obviously a liar. His life doesn't match his words. But the one who keeps God's word is the person in whom we see God's mature love. This is the only way to be sure we're in God. Anyone who claims to be intimate with God ought to live the same kind of life Jesus lived."
The bible being Gods word says Mens lust for one another is wrong.

I am being like Jesus by not doing wrong, and warning people of what is wrong.

Oirish_Martin:

ten.to.ten:

And yes, to back up what Polarity was saying, we prefer the term "gay" rather than "homosexual", "homosexual" is kind of like the gay equivalent of what "negro" is to African-Americans. It's an outdated term that is often intended to have negative connotations attached to it. OP, I seriously doubt that you at all intended to say that in a disparaging way, and usually I wouldn't feel like it's really necessary to point it out, but in the future, if it's all the same, consider using "gay" instead of "homosexual". :)

Well, this is news to me.

I was always under the impression that "gay" was the derogatory term and that "homosexual" was fine.

Unless it's different in different countries?

It can be, but at least where I live (Chicago-ish, near the "Liberal Lakefront") gay has moved from an insult to a much more neutral term.

You know what, OP? I'm gonna take a bit of a step out on a limb for this one.

No. You don't get that free pass by making a single post on a message board. You want to show that you aren't part of the so-called majority of Christians? Prove it. If you want to show a change in the image of Christianity, you need to do more than just provide lip service. Someone starts making a homophobic comment? Cut them off. Stop them. Defend people that face this kind of hate. You need to step up and change what's been happening in the past.

It may not be your, personal mess, but it's a mess that needs to be cleaned up.

edit

hulksmashley:

Naheal:
You know what, OP? I'm gonna take a bit of a step out on a limb for this one.

No. You don't get that free pass by making a single post on a message board. You want to show that you aren't part of the so-called majority of Christians? Prove it. If you want to show a change in the image of Christianity, you need to do more than just provide lip service. Someone starts making a homophobic comment? Cut them off. Stop them. Defend people that face this kind of hate. You need to step up and change what's been happening in the past.

It may not be your, personal mess, but it's a mess that needs to be cleaned up.

I'm a Christian. Specifically a Baptist. And my best friend is gay. He's planning to get married to his boyfriend in New York over the summer. I've yelled at people for being mean to him over it. Just letting you know. Just because she made a forum post doesn't exclude her from having stepped up in other ways.

Also Christian. Specifically Gnostic. Close friend is transgender. I've been an LGBT supporter for as long as I can remember, openly oppose legislation to attempt to teach Christianity in place of science, and work to flush horrid elements out of churches.

Posts like this one may help the image on a single board, but posts alone aren't going to solve anything. Yelling into space is a good starting point, but it's nowhere near enough to fix the problem.

hulksmashley:
I'm a Christian. Specifically a Baptist. And my best friend is gay. He's planning to get married to his boyfriend in New York over the summer. I've yelled at people for being mean to him over it. Just letting you know.

Good for you! And I mean that in a completely non-ironic way. Making it clear that it's not okay for people to be dicks is a good step.
EDIT: Good for you is probably the wrong term, I think "Thank you" is more aptly in order.

Now, there's the good christian. Now I have to deal with this guy.

Mr.logic:

Romans 1:27
New International Version (NIV)

27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Homosexuality is a sin. You said you trust in the bible. Romans is new testament by the way.

If you're going to spout context-free bible verses, so am I.

Mark 7:9-10 "And he [Jesus] said unto them ... Ye reject the commandment of God ... For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death."

So, apparently, Jesus favors infanticide.

2 Timothy 2:16 "But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness."

Makes me wonder what you're doing on a forum primarily filled with ungodly statements.

Hebrew 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

Oho, so now we're all evil. Why are you associating yourself with us, then?

James 4:4 "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

You're on the internet, on a forum dedicated to a highly luxurious recreational activity, one that you probably spend time on. Does that not make you a "friend of the world"? Shouldn't you go hermit yourself or something?

1 Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

Which is funny, because we know this didn't actually happen.

Spouting out-of-context bible verses is a waste of time, especially because all Christians come to their own interpretations of the book, yourself included. I don't know how far you have to twist it to come up with "homosexuality is okay", but I do know that a fairly large number of Christians believe that, and several denominations just outright don't take the bible as the literal word of god, but rather as an assortment of parables and stories related to their religion. These are the Christians who are generally not douchebags.

there is also only one path to heaven. John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Yes, and you know what? If a homosexual repents, and entry to heaven is based on faith alone, then there is no reason why he should not go to heaven.

Stagnant:

hulksmashley:
I'm a Christian. Specifically a Baptist. And my best friend is gay. He's planning to get married to his boyfriend in New York over the summer. I've yelled at people for being mean to him over it. Just letting you know.

Good for you! And I mean that in a completely non-ironic way. Making it clear that it's not okay for people to be dicks is a good step.

I'd second that. Yelling at such people tends not to achieve much, but there's too many people who nominally oppose such things without actually opposing them. And then get surprised when people accuse them of not caring, but that's another issue.

Naheal:
You know what, OP? I'm gonna take a bit of a step out on a limb for this one.

No. You don't get that free pass by making a single post on a message board. You want to show that you aren't part of the so-called majority of Christians? Prove it. If you want to show a change in the image of Christianity, you need to do more than just provide lip service. Someone starts making a homophobic comment? Cut them off. Stop them. Defend people that face this kind of hate. You need to step up and change what's been happening in the past.

It may not be your, personal mess, but it's a mess that needs to be cleaned up.

Good post, Naheal. I'm glad to see this echoed by a Christian, I think it's more meaningful coming from the same ingroup.

I am, though, *very* sad to see this particular flamewar necroed. I think the OP got a lot of good information in the conflagration, but I'd love to see this thread die.

Polarity27:

Naheal:
You know what, OP? I'm gonna take a bit of a step out on a limb for this one.

No. You don't get that free pass by making a single post on a message board. You want to show that you aren't part of the so-called majority of Christians? Prove it. If you want to show a change in the image of Christianity, you need to do more than just provide lip service. Someone starts making a homophobic comment? Cut them off. Stop them. Defend people that face this kind of hate. You need to step up and change what's been happening in the past.

It may not be your, personal mess, but it's a mess that needs to be cleaned up.

Good post, Naheal. I'm glad to see this echoed by a Christian, I think it's more meaningful coming from the same ingroup.

I'm in an extremely small sect that's very nearly died out. As much as I'd like to take that praise, my words here have far less weight given that.

I am, though, *very* sad to see this particular flamewar necroed. I think the OP got a lot of good information in the conflagration, but I'd love to see this thread die.

Though I understand your point of view on this, I very much don't want to see this conflagration buried. Frankly, we need threads like this up toward the top to help others like the OP as they start down this path... and to teach them that this is only the first step.

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