Do you think this is a terrible thing?
Yes of course.
56.7% (55)
56.7% (55)
No, people are allowed to raise their children however they please.
10.3% (10)
10.3% (10)
No, of course not.
2.1% (2)
2.1% (2)
Yes, this is just wrong.
26.8% (26)
26.8% (26)
I'm not sure.
4.1% (4)
4.1% (4)
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Poll: Alright this is it human race.

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Christian or Atheist, woman or man, democrat or republician....I don't think my faith in humanity can last much longer after seeing this picture.
image

Are people HONESTLY putting their children in these shirts? And then putting it on the internet like it's something to brag about? I personally think this is a terrible thing to do, especially to your child because now your enforcing YOUR hatred on them (God never says in the bible that he hates homosexuals) I mean really, who is raising these kids? Scott Lively? AFTAH? Please tell me it's not One Million Moms.....

At least the girl on the left looks like shes not enjoying herself....

You had faith in humanity left over before seeing this?

Wow, congratulations. Mine was all used up by the time I left elementary school.

Yes, of course this is wrong. However, people do ultimately have the right to bring their children up how they like. All we can do is keep this out of schools whilst trying to teach as much tolerance and reason to kids as possible so long as they're inside a state building. There's nothing more you can do other than that.

Heronblade:
You had faith in humanity left over before seeing this?

Wow, congratulations. Mine was all used up by the time I left elementary school.

I was home schooled and never watched reality t.v.

So yeah I'm an innocent soul, expecting all the human race to actually be at least 1/2 way filled with respectable human beings.
image

If it's any consolation, the children depicted in the photo must know very little if anything about what the t-shirt's message actually means. Yes, it saddens me to see people using innocents to advance their own misguided aims but look a little closer at the photo and I hope your faith in humanity will be restored when you realise that there is a reasonable chance when the little girls grow up they will turn their backs on their parent's intolerance. Each generation rebels against the last and I have high hopes for what's coming next.

JoJo:
If it's any consolation, the children depicted in the photo must know very little if anything about what the t-shirt's message actually means. Yes, it saddens me to see people using innocents to advance their own misguided aims but look a little closer at the photo and I hope your faith in humanity will be restored when you realise that there is a reasonable chance when the little girls grow up they will turn their backs on their parent's intolerance. Each generation rebels against the last and I have high hopes for what's coming next.

I have a bit of faith :)

WoW Killer:
However, people do ultimately have the right to bring their children up how they like.

No they bloody well do not. Society grants that privilege by default when it shouldn't, and is all too loath to take that privilege away even after parents are proven to be harmful to the development of the child.

Heronblade:
No they bloody well do not. Society grants that privilege by default when it shouldn't, and is all too loath to take that privilege away even after parents are proven to be harmful to the development of the child.

What are you saying then, that it should be illegal for parents to dress their children in clothes sporting homophobic propaganda?

Angelblaze:

JoJo:
If it's any consolation, the children depicted in the photo must know very little if anything about what the t-shirt's message actually means. Yes, it saddens me to see people using innocents to advance their own misguided aims but look a little closer at the photo and I hope your faith in humanity will be restored when you realise that there is a reasonable chance when the little girls grow up they will turn their backs on their parent's intolerance. Each generation rebels against the last and I have high hopes for what's coming next.

I have a bit of faith :)

I had a roommate in College whose parents were the "God hates Fags" types, he himself is religious, and doesn't necessarily approve of homosexuality, but he doesn't think they deserve to be hassled, or told their are going to hell and respects their right to live their lives. So there is hope for the next generation

WoW Killer:

Heronblade:
No they bloody well do not. Society grants that privilege by default when it shouldn't, and is all too loath to take that privilege away even after parents are proven to be harmful to the development of the child.

What are you saying then, that it should be illegal for parents to dress their children in clothes sporting homophobic propaganda?

Specifically? no

What I am saying is that we have far higher standards for whether or not a person is qualified to operate a fruit stand than to bear and raise a child. I was under the impression that the latter case is just a wee bit more important, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that point.

Angelblaze:
Christian or Atheist, woman or man, democrat or republician....I don't think my faith in humanity can last much longer after seeing this picture.
image

Are people HONESTLY putting their children in these shirts? And then putting it on the internet like it's something to brag about? I personally think this is a terrible thing to do, especially to your child because now your enforcing YOUR hatred on them (God never says in the bible that he hates homosexuals) I mean really, who is raising these kids? Scott Lively? AFTAH? Please tell me it's not One Million Moms.....

At least the girl on the left looks like shes not enjoying herself....

That is Fred Phelps family aka the most hated family in America

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-most-hated-family-in-america/

This reminds me of that neo nazi scumbag that got her twin daughters to sing anti-Semitic songs as a duo. It's disgusting.

Heronblade:
Specifically? no

What I am saying is that we have far higher standards for whether or not a person is qualified to operate a fruit stand than to bear and raise a child. I was under the impression that the latter case is just a wee bit more important, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that point.

You may be right in principle, morally speaking, as in it's a much bigger responsibility raising a child. But in terms of what a government (and that's what we're ultimately talking about) has the right to legislate against, they have a much bigger right over that fruit stand actually. Regarding religion I take the stance that people can believe whatever the hell they want to believe, but as soon as they want to put that shit in schools and have it affect my kids (hypothetical), then I'll be resolute to the point of death. I should be free to bring up my kids without some religious nutjob trying to indoctrinate them, but by that I must concede said nutjobs are allowed to bring up their kids as future nutjobs. Fair is fair.

As regards to what a government can legislate against, obviously there are exceptions made in cases of child abuse, but you have to be seriously fucking careful on this one. I happen to know a girl that had her kid taken off her for 6 months due to a miscalculation from social services. Essentially her kid suffered an injury (which officially turned out to be a pram malfunction or something) which was flagged as abuse. Due to this the whole family, and in particular the child, were subject to 6 months of incredible emotional turmoil until they proved their innocence. You have to be extremely careful when you try to do anything with other peoples kids.

Angelblaze:

At least the girl on the left looks like shes not enjoying herself....

That should give you some hope.
And her expression really reminds me of something my grandfather told me when I was a kid. (he said this in Mandarin so I'm translating it as best I can) "Adults have no sweet clue what the hell they're doing. So if you're going to make some life-altering decision, don't listen to advice given by adults and make sure you're done making those decisions by the time you turn 16".

KlLLUMINATI:

That is Fred Phelps family aka the most hated family in America

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-most-hated-family-in-america/

Damn these Ninjas!

I was about to say, I have seen that picture before...in the local paper. The subtitle pretty much translated too "Hey every, point and laugh at our most hated resident and his family." (I live about half hour from Topeka, the "home" of the Phelps's)

Oh but it gets worse, WBC goes after the dead they praise the death of homosexuals. Disagree with them as their child? You get disowned, they are filth but at least they are not violent... well not PHYSICALLY that is

I can only respond like this: "Meh."
It's either that or a murderous rage. And they have free speech, no matter how wrong they are. So, unless the parents are abusing the child, there's nothing we should/can do.

Except make light of it.

"I am God, and, personally, I have no problem with smoking. In fact, I even think smoke smells pretty good. Bad for your health, though. And expensive."

DANEgerous:
Oh but it gets worse, WBC goes after the dead they praise the death of homosexuals. Disagree with them as their child? You get disowned, they are filth but at least they are not violent... well not PHYSICALLY that is

I wouldnt say that exactly. Child services here has been throwing a fit for a while now. Something about the parents have shown they are mentally insane and completely incapable of raising children properly...I cant imgaine why they would think THAT. ;)

Questionable, yes, but they have the right to voice their opinion of homosexuals and the right to raise their children how they please. In time, perhaps these children will learn to form opinions of their own and won't buy into their parents' bible-thumping anymore, but until there is imminent or actual harm, not much can be done.

Hazy992:
This reminds me of that neo nazi scumbag that got her twin daughters to sing anti-Semitic songs as a duo. It's disgusting.

I don't know. Aside from the racism, their song Skinhead Boy is very catchy. I just hope no one hears me humming the lyrics...

DANEgerous:
Oh but it gets worse, WBC goes after the dead they praise the death of homosexuals. Disagree with them as their child? You get disowned, they are filth but at least they are not violent... well not PHYSICALLY that is

Westboro Baptist? (I refuse to call those people a 'church'. A 'mob' or 'fanatical' group is a term mthat would roll off the tongue alot better.)

And I have heard stories about them being Pyshically violent, just not in public. Most of these stories I call into question though, no matter how much I dislike them....I certainly wouldn't put it beyond them though lol..

Ah, Fred Fill-of-shit.....I mean Phelps.

He hasn't been beaten to death on the street by an actually RIGHTEOUS man of god yet? I'm surprised.

Angelblaze:

He hasn't been beaten to death on the street by an actually RIGHTEOUS man of god yet? I'm surprised.

If it means anything, I know for a fact that he and his family where bullet-proof vest whenever they go to picket...well, except Shirley, but she is the crazist of the bunch (even crazier than Fred himself)

Angelblaze:
(God never says in the bible that he hates homosexuals)

Because telling his people to not be Homosexual and kill them when found is totally not saying he hates Homosexuals.......

You could make the argument that he doesn't and that it was just the people putting their laws in the book instead of talking to him about it, but to say he doesn't say it at all in the Bible is just outright false.

Warforger:

Angelblaze:
(God never says in the bible that he hates homosexuals)

Because telling his people to not be Homosexual and kill them when found is totally not saying he hates Homosexuals.......

You could make the argument that he doesn't and that it was just the people putting their laws in the book instead of talking to him about it, but to say he doesn't say it at all in the Bible is just outright false.

I'm still very curious as to why God would give a flying fuck about gay sex.
I mean, he/she invented neutrinos! And quarks! And quantum tunneling! And entanglement! And stars! And black holes (there's probably a sick joke here)! You'd think God has much more interesting and important shit to deal with than gay sex. That's really where I lost my respect for God; when I discovered that he/she really doesn't have his/her priorities straight.

Pingieking:

Warforger:

Angelblaze:
(God never says in the bible that he hates homosexuals)

Because telling his people to not be Homosexual and kill them when found is totally not saying he hates Homosexuals.......

You could make the argument that he doesn't and that it was just the people putting their laws in the book instead of talking to him about it, but to say he doesn't say it at all in the Bible is just outright false.

I'm still very curious as to why God would give a flying fuck about gay sex.
I mean, he/she invented neutrinos! And quarks! And quantum tunneling! And entanglement! And stars! And black holes (there's probably a sick joke here)! You'd think God has much more interesting and important shit to deal with than gay sex. That's really where I lost my respect for God; when I discovered that he/she really doesn't have his/her priorities straight.

You'd certainly think so wouldn't you.

Pingieking:

I'm still very curious as to why God would give a flying fuck about gay sex.
I mean, he/she invented neutrinos! And quarks! And quantum tunneling! And entanglement! And stars! And black holes (there's probably a sick joke here)! You'd think God has much more interesting and important shit to deal with than gay sex. That's really where I lost my respect for God; when I discovered that he/she really doesn't have his/her priorities straight.

Perhaps God actually hates us and trying to get us all to love him is part of his plan to torment us and make fools of us all.

Warforger:

Pingieking:

I'm still very curious as to why God would give a flying fuck about gay sex.
I mean, he/she invented neutrinos! And quarks! And quantum tunneling! And entanglement! And stars! And black holes (there's probably a sick joke here)! You'd think God has much more interesting and important shit to deal with than gay sex. That's really where I lost my respect for God; when I discovered that he/she really doesn't have his/her priorities straight.

Perhaps God actually hates us and trying to get us all to love him is part of his plan to torment us and make fools of us all.

In which case he/she is a prick in addition to having messed up priorities and I would have even less respect for him/her as I do now.

Two things:
1. Old. Very old. WBC is disgusting, we all know that.
2. The fact that we all know that is actually a pretty good reason to keep faith in humanity. You'd be extremely hard-pressed to find a single person outside the WBC who doesn't think that they are disgusting and evil.

Freedom of speech is one thing, but that kid on the left is obviously doped out of her mind.

Drugging children is wrong!

Parents do not just have the right to raise kids the way they want. Even with current laws. You're not allowed to beat your kids for doing something wrong. You're not allowed to lock them up for extensive periods of time as if they were a prisoner in a cell. Having to send them to school is often mandatory up to age 16~18. (differs) And plenty of other things.

In other words, clearly society already thinks it's not just okay to raise your kids in any way you like. It's just a matter of where you draw the line. Clothes, in my opinion, should be neutral (not necessarily gender neutral, mind you.) until the child can choose for him/herself what they wants to wear. So putting any text with a meaning on a child's shirt that wasn't of their own choice, is wrong. (Just one example of course.)

i start to wonder if Freedom of Speech is a double edged sword. on one hand its good, on the other its pretty shitty

I've been on a crusade lately to get the word "fag" redefined to mean "homophobic/people who hate homosexuals without reason or through prejudice". It's actually quite fun, whenever I see the westboro baptists I just hold up a sign that says "fags" with an arrow pointing at them.

Now here's hoping I don't get flagged for that.

WBC? Well that says it. Nothing to see here, move along, nothing to see.

They're okay by my book. I value freedom for all people, and that freedom extends to views, opinions and beliefs, be they positive or negative. If a family or parent hates homosexuals and wishes to bring their children up that way, that's fine, I believe they have every right to. Now, if they went out and committed violence against homosexuals or harassed them, then that definitely is not fine.

As for the picketing of funerals, that's a bit of a grey line for me. On the one hand, sure, they should be allowed to voice their opinion but on the other hard, that is more or less harassing the people who are there, so I can't give a completely concrete opinion on that issue. It's one that needs some more thought from me.

Angelblaze:

DANEgerous:
Oh but it gets worse, WBC goes after the dead they praise the death of homosexuals. Disagree with them as their child? You get disowned, they are filth but at least they are not violent... well not PHYSICALLY that is

Westboro Baptist? (I refuse to call those people a 'church'. A 'mob' or 'fanatical' group is a term mthat would roll off the tongue alot better.)

The word you're looking for is "cult". They are, by any possible sociological standard of the word. And yes, they're incredibly abusive to their family members, and the account by that one member who got free and talked about it was harrowing. But it's *incredibly* hard to do anything legal against groups like this, even when they're abusive. The same standards that should protect minority religions in general also protect cults. I wish that weren't the case-- I actually do think the US is way too permissive when it comes to certain things, including speech. (Germany has way more restrictions than we do, and I have yet to see any evidence that they suffer for it. OTOH, the US is the world producer of Neo-Nazi and white supremacist hate music, propaganda, and materials. Other countries have had the good sense to ban Scientology, we have not; they have wealthy compounds in the US literally built with slave labor.) Even if a legal case can be made on grounds of, say, child abuse, or weapons violations, it is-- as has been shown a number of times in our history-- a powderkeg to try to prosecute. Everyone's afraid of another Waco. Add homeschooling, and in some cults you end up with brainwashed children who've lived their whole lives and never encountered a single person who doesn't uphold the group's fucked up belief system. (Which isn't to say that homeschooling is intrinsically bad, but what's salvation for a bullied kid with a supportive family and an abusive local school system is a hell of a powerful tool in the hands of an abusive family that wants to exert complete control over their kids' lives.) They either remain in that mindset, raising the next generation, or they try to break free and end up with a ripping case of PTSD in the process.

BTW, I think there are things Christians can do to help the situation with not only the WBC, but the much more under-the-radar and thereby more dangerous Bible-based cults. IMO every minister, priest, pastor, lay counselor, etc. should have some training on cults, how they operate, how to recognize them, and how to counsel someone who's in one and trying to get out, or who have a family member who's in one. Donating to Wellspring and other ex-cult counseling groups is helpful, and I think it would be awesome to have a multi-denomination effort to establish Wellspring-like programs in other parts of the country and in other parts of the world. Also, clergy should be aware of steeplejacking, how to prevent it, and the theological arguments against Christian Reconstructionism/Joel's Army/New Apostolic Reformation teachings. It won't end groups like the WBC, but Christian communities could be more ready to deal with cults and cult members before they end up interacting with them.

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