Women who support Rick Santorum are like blacks who support the KKK:

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Seekster:
This is pitiful. I have a question, exactly what rights does Santorum oppose for women? Abortion? Many women oppose abortion. Access to free contraceptives? No such right exists.

That's true. And more women do not.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/147734/americans-split-along-pro-choice-pro-life-lines.aspx

Tyler Perry:

Seekster:
This is pitiful. I have a question, exactly what rights does Santorum oppose for women? Abortion? Many women oppose abortion. Access to free contraceptives? No such right exists.

That's true. And more women do not.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/147734/americans-split-along-pro-choice-pro-life-lines.aspx

Slightly more, 50-44 split. As I said many women oppose abortion. Are you going to sit there with your nose in the air and act like 44% of American women are just too stupid to know what they are doing or will you drop this arrogant nonsense?

Seekster:

Tyler Perry:

Seekster:
This is pitiful. I have a question, exactly what rights does Santorum oppose for women? Abortion? Many women oppose abortion. Access to free contraceptives? No such right exists.

That's true. And more women do not.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/147734/americans-split-along-pro-choice-pro-life-lines.aspx

Slightly more, 50-44 split. As I said many women oppose abortion. Are you going to sit there with your nose in the air and act like 44% of American women are just too stupid to know what they are doing or will you drop this arrogant nonsense?

I'm not the one who made the original claim, so kindly take that "arrogant nonsense" crap and stick it.

Santorum thinks that prenatal testing shouldn't be covered by insurance, and he would force his daughter to carry a rape baby to term. Does this sound like a guy who's particularly concerned with women's rights?

Here's a good take on Santorum's record.

http://www.womenarewatching.org/candidate/rick-santorum

Seekster:
Slightly more, 50-44 split. As I said many women oppose abortion.

If you mean by 'many' to say 'one or two sad flagship cases that the pro-life mob screams off the rooftops', then you are right.

But unsurprisingly, by far the most anti-abortion freaks are men. After all, empathy and being pro-life are mutually exclusive, and it's much easier to feel empathy with something you can experience yourself.

I mean, while I personally agree that Santorum is about as good for women's rights as bullets are for any vital organ, there are a lot of women out there who embrace "traditional" roles. Of course, I come from the state that just tried to pass a bill demanding a big medical dildo be shoved up every woman's vagina if she wanted to get an abortion, a bill proposed by a woman, so I'm surrounded.

Tyler Perry:
Santorum thinks that prenatal testing shouldn't be covered by insurance

Well now, I kind of agree with him on that one. There is an overload of data that shows that the MAJORITY of babies with pretty much ANY defect are aborted. Just going on Downs Syndrome, 92% are aborted. Un-fricking-acceptable! I dont care if you are a man or woman, democrat or republican, that shit WILL NOT FLY!

OT: From my own observations in my state, the majority of women actually agree with him. 29,605 people voted in the republican caucus here. It was about 50% men, 50% women, with a slight tilt toward men. Santorum won 51% of the vote. Are you seriously going to sit there and say "Oh, no women voted for him, and if they did, they are stupid." Because I can garuntee that there were alot of women voters with Santorum.

BOOM headshot65:

Tyler Perry:
Santorum thinks that prenatal testing shouldn't be covered by insurance

Well now, I kind of agree with him on that one. There is an overload of data that shows that the MAJORITY of babies with pretty much ANY defect are aborted. Just going on Downs Syndrome, 92% are aborted. Un-fricking-acceptable! I dont care if you are a man or woman, democrat or republican, that shit WILL NOT FLY!

So in order to force couples to raise babies with severe handicaps, we should just not tell the parents about them.

Tyler Perry:

Seekster:

Tyler Perry:

That's true. And more women do not.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/147734/americans-split-along-pro-choice-pro-life-lines.aspx

Slightly more, 50-44 split. As I said many women oppose abortion. Are you going to sit there with your nose in the air and act like 44% of American women are just too stupid to know what they are doing or will you drop this arrogant nonsense?

I'm not the one who made the original claim, so kindly take that "arrogant nonsense" crap and stick it.

Santorum thinks that prenatal testing shouldn't be covered by insurance, and he would force his daughter to carry a rape baby to term. Does this sound like a guy who's particularly concerned with women's rights?

Here's a good take on Santorum's record.

http://www.womenarewatching.org/candidate/rick-santorum

I don't see how either of those or anything in his record make him the equivalent of the KKK for women or anything close to that.

Blablahb:

Seekster:
Slightly more, 50-44 split. As I said many women oppose abortion.

If you mean by 'many' to say 'one or two sad flagship cases that the pro-life mob screams off the rooftops', then you are right.

But unsurprisingly, by far the most anti-abortion freaks are men. After all, empathy and being pro-life are mutually exclusive, and it's much easier to feel empathy with something you can experience yourself.

Actually only slightly more men are anti-abortion than women.

Seekster:
I don't see how either of those or anything in his record make him the equivalent of the KKK for women or anything close to that.

Apparently the concepts of metaphor and hyperbole escape you.

Tyler Perry:

So in order to force couples to raise babies with severe handicaps, we should just not tell the parents about them.

There is nothing wrong with a child with disabilities (well, as a person anyway). Actually, from what I have seen, children with disabilities are FAR better than "normal" people almost all across the board. No. What we SHOULD do is convince parents that it isnt a bad thing to have a disabled child and convince them to bring him or her to term, NOT kill them off. Because THAT is eugenics, which is UNACCEPTABLE!!!

BOOM headshot65:

There is nothing wrong with a child with disabilities (well, as a person anyway).

No, there is nothing wrong with a child with disabilities, except for the disability itself. My brother is severely autistic (with slight MR), and I love the kid, but to insist that there's "nothing wrong with him" is utterly moronic. Yes, there is something wrong with him.

BOOM headshot65:
Actually, from what I have seen, children with disabilities are FAR better than "normal" people almost all across the board.

What the fuck does this even mean? Better at what? Math? Sports? Video games?

BOOM headshot65:
No. What we SHOULD do is convince parents that it isnt a bad thing to have a disabled child and convince them to bring him or her to term, NOT kill them off.

Listen, it's not your fucking place to tell a couple that they are under some obligation to raise a disabled child. Do you understand whatsoever the challenges faced by families with severely disabled children? Well, I fucking do. It's a nightmare. Not every couple is equipped, emotionally or financially, to deal with that living hell. And don't pull your Asperger's card on me ... Asperger's is a walk in the park compared to what my brother has.

BOOM headshot65:
Because THAT is eugenics, which is UNACCEPTABLE!!!

That's not eugenics.

I'm certainly not advocating that we "Abort All The Downies," or anything ludicrous like that. But to block people from prenatal testing so they can't know their kid might be messed up, on the chance they'd abort it, is unethical as shit.

Withholding information to coerce women to carry their pregancies to term is utterly vile, and what's even more vile is defending it.

Tyler Perry:

No, there is nothing wrong with a child with disabilities, except for the disability itself.

Thats what I ment.

What the fuck does this even mean? Better at what? Math? Sports? Video games?

They are all around better people. Every single person with a "disability" that I have met is 10x a better person than "normal" people. They are FAR more caring, they are always happy, and better friends. I would gladly have a child with a disability rather than a normal child.

Listen, it's not your fucking place to tell a couple that they are under some obligation to raise a disabled child. Do you understand whatsoever the challenges faced by families with severely disabled children? Well, I fucking do. It's a nightmare. Not every couple is equipped, emotionally or financially, to deal with that living hell.

Most families I have talked too love having a child with a disability. Same thing is in the news all the time. Most families say they thought they couldnt handle it, then when the time came around, they absoultely fell in love with the child, disability in all.

I'm certainly not advocating that we "Abort All The Downies," or anything ludicrous like that.

But 92% of all children diagonesed with down sydrome are aborted. Is that getting through to you?

92%

THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE!!!!

But to block people from prenatal testing so they can't know their kid might be messed up, on the chance they'd abort it, is unethical as shit. Withholding information to coerce women to carry their pregancies to term is utterly vile, and what's even more vile is defending it.

Thats the catch-22 isnt it. If we tell the woman they have a "defective" child, they are likely to abort. If we dont tell them, then they are unprepared. We need to find a way to break this 22.

BOOM headshot65:

They are all around better people. Every single person with a "disability" that I have met is 10x a better person than "normal" people. They are FAR more caring, they are always happy, and better friends. I would gladly have a child with a disability rather than a normal child.

Your personal anecdotes don't mean whole lot to me. Trust me, I've met disabled people who are total pricks, and I've met "normal" people who are saints.

BOOM headshot65:

But 92% of all children diagonesed with down sydrome are aborted. Is that getting through to you?

92%

THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE!!!!

I also don't buy that it's accurate.

Tyler Perry:

BOOM headshot65:

But 92% of all children diagonesed with down sydrome are aborted. Is that getting through to you?

92%

THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE!!!!

I also don't buy that it's accurate.

Afew credible sources, coming up!!

Wikipedia (not quite accredited, but it lead to the others)
US Library of Health
And Another report from there
And ANOTHER report from there
A REALLY long report from the National Downs Syndrom Congress

So I was a little off. Numbers range from 87% to 90%. That is still a VERY sad number.

BOOM headshot65:

Tyler Perry:
Santorum thinks that prenatal testing shouldn't be covered by insurance

Well now, I kind of agree with him on that one. There is an overload of data that shows that the MAJORITY of babies with pretty much ANY defect are aborted. Just going on Downs Syndrome, 92% are aborted. Un-fricking-acceptable! I dont care if you are a man or woman, democrat or republican, that shit WILL NOT FLY!

92% of parents agree: there's nothing good about having Downs syndrome. There isn't any particular compelling reason not to just abort and try again. As much as someone might want to say that these are valuable individuals or whatever, so are all the people who don't have Downs syndrome. There are countless numbers of potential people that could be born; no reason for those that are to have to deal with such a condition.

BOOM headshot65:

Tyler Perry:

BOOM headshot65:

But 92% of all children diagonesed with down sydrome are aborted. Is that getting through to you?

92%

THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE!!!!

I also don't buy that it's accurate.

Afew credible sources, coming up!!

Wikipedia (not quite accredited, but it lead to the others)
US Library of Health
And Another report from there
And ANOTHER report from there
A REALLY long report from the National Downs Syndrom Congress

So I was a little off. Numbers range from 87% to 90%. That is still a VERY sad number.

OK, I'll buy that it's quite high. So do you feel the best way to stem that tide is to withhold information?

Tyler Perry:

OK, I'll buy that it's quite high. So do you feel the best way to stem that tide is to withhold information?

Again, in my opinion, this is very much a Catch-22 situation. I will agree that it is unethical to withhold information like this from the mother, but at the same time, the majority have shown that they believe that having a child with Downs Sydrome is a bad thing, maybe due to doctors (I saw another report where it said 30% of doctors made it out as a bad thing and actively encourgaed termination) and old stereotypes.

So, on one hand, if we withhold the information, we save the life of the child (if you couldnt tell, I am pro-life with extreme exceptions), but then the parent might be unprepared for having a disabled child. On the other hand, If we tell them that they will have a child with disabilities, odds show they will terminate based on what usually amounts too old-fashion stereotypes of disabilities or a preceived notion that they "cant take care" off a disabled child.

What we need to do is find a way to break peoples stereotypes that children with disabilities are any less of a person than a "normal" person. But THAT, I dont know how we will accomplish.

PinochetIsMyBro:
Hey look, the race card. Congratulations on utterly destroying any legitimacy your argument might have had in your opening statement.

Every once and a while, someone honestly pulls out the race card again. Now in the media, it happens all the time. But on the internet, for whatever reason, people tend to have considerably more civility and intelligence. (And I'm serious too; on a news program, you can say whatever and push an applause button. On the internet, you say anything at all and get a dozen replies ripping you to pieces; some intelligence and honest conversational conduct is required.) And therefore, I almost never see it online.

But once or twice, I've seen it played. And it's blown my mind each time.

PinochetIsMyBro:
I'll probably end up voting for Santorum if Ron Paul doesn't get the nomination,

Which he won't. I mean let's be honest; he's not won a single state so far, and we know that Mitt, Newt and Rick would all hand their existing delegates to one another before they handed them to Paul.

PinochetIsMyBro:
as my favorite candidate is already out of the running.

Who was that? *spins wild guessing wheel* Herman Cain?

PinochetIsMyBro:
I agree with his sentiments on same-sex marriage, but dislike his opinions on abortion

O_oO_oO_o

Against gay marriage... pro-choice.

That's a first.

Please, PLEASE elaborate some on these positions. I am impossibly curious!

PinochetIsMyBro:
Still better than any of the democrats.

THANK YOU. A big chunk of the Ron Paul base are liberal democrats. I don't know how it's conceptually possible to see Democrats and Ron Paul as anywhere near the same thing, but that's what they say and do.

However, another big chunk of the Ron Paul base understand what liberty and freedom are, and understand that you've got to vote to get as much of it as you can, and almost always have to vote for a little less of it than you wish you could.

Now honestly, I like so many of the things that Ron Paul believes in, and agree with so many things that he says, but I have two problems with him.

1: His foreign policy always sounds a bit too isolationist for my nerves. Every time I learn a little more about Nazi Germany and WW2, I keep thinking how the 'just leave them alone, don't agitate them, take them at their word, even if they are highly suspicious' policy was what led to about 60 million people being killed, and is the same attitude Ron Paul wants for America today.

I don't have nearly the informational faculties to talk about foreign policy confidently, so that's why I'm mostly wanting to ask you--and others reading--about it.

2: He doesn't seem like a halfway decent politician. He's an exciting speaker, but is he a good leader? What has he accomplished in his decades-long political career? No really, what great freedoms have been protected, restored or maintained, that wouldn't have been if Ron Paul never got elected? I've never heard of any. Please tell me.

I know he's not 'corrupt' and he's 'pure', but that doesn't automatically make him a good person to be in a place of power and authority. So what else does he have?

TizzytheTormentor:
Women who support the bible must have never read it (most Christians never have read the book they live on) The bible says rape is socially acceptable, women are second class citizens and are nothing more than sex puppets. So yeah, women who support the bible, you really should read Deuteronomy.

I see this 'look at all the bad stuff the Bible says is okay' talk pumped out quite often whenever religion gets brought up. And the people saying this usually do cite actual things the Bible says.

However, the problem with this is that they always fail to acknowledge the new testament. For those unfamiliar, the first 2/3rds of the Bible (from Genesis to Malachi) is the original, old testament, in which everything was basically shitty and God really was a brutal guy who punished people harshly and had crazy rules to follow.
And the last third (from Matthew to Revelation) is the new testament, which introduces Jesus Christ and the new rules and structure of things. Now, there's love, compassion, forgiveness and mercy added into the mix, and it's the whole thing behind Christianity, and it's one thing Western Civilization was greatly influenced by.

My mental capacity is extremely low right now, so my posts are going to be pretty lame-sounding, but that's basically it; most of the really crazy stuff you talk about that's in the Bible is from the old testament, not the new. I'm not going to go out and say that everything about the Bible makes logical sense, but I'd just like to put down the accusation of such a glaring set of flaws.

UltraHammer:
A big chunk of the Ron Paul base are liberal democrats. I don't know how it's conceptually possible to see Democrats and Ron Paul as anywhere near the same thing, but that's what they say and do.

Presumably mostly based on Paul's stance on personal freedoms and possibly his foreign policy (end the senseless wars). The other Republicans are sure to alienate a lot of people with their repeated bouts of Social Conservatism - policies that are extremely big government, extremely invasive and diametrically opposed to liberty and freedom - and while Paul isn't immune to that (say, abortion), he is much more egalitarian than all other Republicans and even more so than some Democrats.

However, another big chunk of the Ron Paul base understand what liberty and freedom are,...

Why do you even expect to have a civil conversation when you insult everybody on the opposing side?

BOOM headshot65:
But 92% of all children diagonesed with down sydrome are aborted. Is that getting through to you?
92%
THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE!!!!

Why is that unacceptable? Even if the remaining 8% condemn a child to a life of suffering and ruin their own life while at it, it's a form of freedom we've given parents.

I'll admit there's something to be said for not allowing that in extreme cases (two legally retarded people who have kids for instance have a near 100% chance of raising their kid ending up screwed up) but still it's something pretty elementary we should be carefull not to mess with frivolously.

So for now it's enough people have the chance to test it, and prevent the lives of themselves and their child being nothing but problems and burdens.

Blablahb:
Why is that unacceptable?

Why is a child with a disability any less deserving of a loving life than a "normal" child?

Even if the remaining 8% condemn a child to a life of suffering and ruin their own life while at it, it's a form of freedom we've given parents.

But see, you are making it out as a bad thing. IT ISNT! There is absoultely nothing wrong with having a disability, and some people (me included) consider it a blessing. The only reason it would be a problem is because people who dont understand us make it a problem.

So for now it's enough people have the chance to test it, and prevent the lives of themselves and their child being nothing but problems and burdens.

I have never met a parent with a disabled child who said that it had made thier life worse. The only responce I have ever gotten was there was some temperary setbacks, but that they love having a disabled child. Saying we are all bad and pains in the ass to raise is rather selfish.

BOOM headshot65:
Why is a child with a disability any less deserving of a loving life than a "normal" child?

Please don't go offtopic. You were talking about prenatal screening.

BOOM headshot65:
But see, you are making it out as a bad thing. IT ISNT!

You're not in any position to decide that for anyone. Your opinion is yours, but stripping others of their freedom is of course not an option. Forcing people to live like you think can work would be monstrous? Who would be inhuman and cruel enough to oppose prenatal screening based on such a crap argument?

BOOM headshot65:
I have never met a parent with a disabled child who said that it had made thier life worse.

I once met a parent who claimed raping his daughter wasn't all that bad.

And like with what you claim to have hear: That doesn't make it true, or universally applicable. Surely you're familiar with the phenomenon that people answer what socially accepted instead of giving their real opinion, or stating objective fact.

BOOM headshot65:

But see, you are making it out as a bad thing. IT ISNT! There is absoultely nothing wrong with having a disability, and some people (me included) consider it a blessing.

Don't you fucking DARE compare your Asperger's with a disability like Down syndrome. They're not even in the same ballpark. They're not even the same fucking sport.

It's almost like you determine everything based on anecdotes.

BOOM headshot65:
I have never met a parent with a disabled child who said that it had made thier life worse. The only responce I have ever gotten was there was some temperary setbacks, but that they love having a disabled child. Saying we are all bad and pains in the ass to raise is rather selfish.

1)Ok. That you haven't met any doesn't mean there aren't any.
2)Maybe that has something to do with the fact that those who don't want to raise a disabled child are able to avoid it, making the population of parents who have disabled children those who are disposed to think the struggle worth it. Or in other words, more information leads to the optimal outcome.

Would it surprise you to hear not only is Santorum not the first hysterically bigoted candidate put forward but that we actually had someone just as bad, if not a little worse, than Santorum in office for TWO MOTHERFUCKING TERMS? A president America has never recovered from? I'll let America's best comedian take it from here:

That's from his "What am I Doing in New Jersey?" show if you're interested in checking out more of his work.

UltraHammer:

PinochetIsMyBro:
Hey look, the race card. Congratulations on utterly destroying any legitimacy your argument might have had in your opening statement.

Every once and a while, someone honestly pulls out the race card again. Now in the media, it happens all the time. But on the internet, for whatever reason, people tend to have considerably more civility and intelligence. (And I'm serious too; on a news program, you can say whatever and push an applause button. On the internet, you say anything at all and get a dozen replies ripping you to pieces; some intelligence and honest conversational conduct is required.) And therefore, I almost never see it online.

But once or twice, I've seen it played. And it's blown my mind each time.

PinochetIsMyBro:
I'll probably end up voting for Santorum if Ron Paul doesn't get the nomination,

Which he won't. I mean let's be honest; he's not won a single state so far, and we know that Mitt, Newt and Rick would all hand their existing delegates to one another before they handed them to Paul.

PinochetIsMyBro:
as my favorite candidate is already out of the running.

Who was that? *spins wild guessing wheel* Herman Cain?

PinochetIsMyBro:
I agree with his sentiments on same-sex marriage, but dislike his opinions on abortion

O_oO_oO_o

Against gay marriage... pro-choice.

That's a first.

Please, PLEASE elaborate some on these positions. I am impossibly curious!

PinochetIsMyBro:
Still better than any of the democrats.

THANK YOU. A big chunk of the Ron Paul base are liberal democrats. I don't know how it's conceptually possible to see Democrats and Ron Paul as anywhere near the same thing, but that's what they say and do.

However, another big chunk of the Ron Paul base understand what liberty and freedom are, and understand that you've got to vote to get as much of it as you can, and almost always have to vote for a little less of it than you wish you could.

Now honestly, I like so many of the things that Ron Paul believes in, and agree with so many things that he says, but I have two problems with him.

1: His foreign policy always sounds a bit too isolationist for my nerves. Every time I learn a little more about Nazi Germany and WW2, I keep thinking how the 'just leave them alone, don't agitate them, take them at their word, even if they are highly suspicious' policy was what led to about 60 million people being killed, and is the same attitude Ron Paul wants for America today.

I don't have nearly the informational faculties to talk about foreign policy confidently, so that's why I'm mostly wanting to ask you--and others reading--about it.

2: He doesn't seem like a halfway decent politician. He's an exciting speaker, but is he a good leader? What has he accomplished in his decades-long political career? No really, what great freedoms have been protected, restored or maintained, that wouldn't have been if Ron Paul never got elected? I've never heard of any. Please tell me.

I know he's not 'corrupt' and he's 'pure', but that doesn't automatically make him a good person to be in a place of power and authority. So what else does he have?

I really would like to know where you got the little bit about Ron Paul having liberal supporters because speaking as a leftist i tend to find Ron Paul to be something akin to an Objectivist, the total opposite of what liberals stand for. I've actually heard this piece of shit come out in favor of privatizing fire departments and allowing property to burn to the ground if you don't pay the firefighters to do their jobs. No, fuck him. He may not always come off as as much of a nut as Santorum, but that's because he doesn't get as much publicity and people don't always hear what his policies and beliefs really consist of. He's pretty much as far right you can get without falling off the face of the Earth.

Then again, maybe that's it. Some people claiming to be liberals support him because they think he's so far right he's come around full circle and is a leftist.

Pyramid Head:

I really would like to know where you got the little bit about Ron Paul having liberal supporters because speaking as a leftist i tend to find Ron Paul to be something akin to an Objectivist, the total opposite of what liberals stand for. I've actually heard this piece of shit come out in favor of privatizing fire departments and allowing property to burn to the ground if you don't pay the firefighters to do their jobs. No, fuck him. He may not always come off as as much of a nut as Santorum, but that's because he doesn't get as much publicity and people don't always hear what his policies and beliefs really consist of. He's pretty much as far right you can get without falling off the face of the Earth.

Then again, maybe that's it. Some people claiming to be liberals support him because they think he's so far right he's come around full circle and is a leftist.

Eh. In 2004, he had some liberal supporters, mostly because he was against the Iraq war and people didn't really understand yet how crazy he was about economic issues.

But i agree with you. If you look on his website, he says he wants to basically eliminate all taxes ("the income tax, the capital gains tax, the gas tax, the corporate tax...") and balance the budget at the same time. I'm not even sure how he intends to pay for interest on the debt, and he certainly won't be able to have a military, or medicare, or really a government at all.

Pyramid Head:
I really would like to know where you got the little bit about Ron Paul having liberal supporters...

I've talked to quite a few people who voted for Obama, but now are supporting Paul. They're not quite all over the place, but I've run into several. And I agree with you that it doesn't make any sense.

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