So, Trayvon Martin. (Updated 9/10: From the duh and oops departments)

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I've said it before elsewhere and it's worth me saying once more: the case is tainted. No matter what happens, someone's gonna come out unsatisfied because people are divided. It was made into a racial issue right off the bat. If it weren't for that, then the world wouldn't be talking about this. It's like Duke Lacrosse all over again. It makes me sick.

Volf:

Tyler Perry:

It's called reading between the lines, guy. It's patently obvious what he means. And if you don't like it, I really couldn't give two shiny shits.

Its called a baseless claim. If you have any evidence to show that Smagmuck thought that those who think Mr. Zimmerman is guilty are "niggers", then provide it. Otherwise your making it up.

I know that you're trying to make a good point. But look who you're arguing with. You're arguing with a person who goes by the handle of "Tyler Perry" and has a picture of what I assume to be Tyler Perry in drag for many of his movies. I'd wager that he's fucking around. Just drop it.

Fox242:

Volf:

Tyler Perry:

It's called reading between the lines, guy. It's patently obvious what he means. And if you don't like it, I really couldn't give two shiny shits.

Its called a baseless claim. If you have any evidence to show that Smagmuck thought that those who think Mr. Zimmerman is guilty are "niggers", then provide it. Otherwise your making it up.

I know that you're trying to make a good point. But look who you're arguing with. You're arguing with a person who goes by the handle of "Tyler Perry" and has a picture of what I assume to be Tyler Perry in drag for many of his movies. I'd wager that he's fucking around. Just drop it.

I suppose that Poe's Law does come into effect here.

Fox242:
I've said it before elsewhere and it's worth me saying once more: the case is tainted. No matter what happens, someone's gonna come out unsatisfied because people are divided. It was made into a racial issue right off the bat. If it weren't for that, then the world wouldn't be talking about this. It's like Duke Lacrosse all over again. It makes me sick.

It absolutely IS tainted ... not quite like Duke lacrosse, but it is.

Volf:

Fox242:

Volf:
Its called a baseless claim. If you have any evidence to show that Smagmuck thought that those who think Mr. Zimmerman is guilty are "niggers", then provide it. Otherwise your making it up.

I know that you're trying to make a good point. But look who you're arguing with. You're arguing with a person who goes by the handle of "Tyler Perry" and has a picture of what I assume to be Tyler Perry in drag for many of his movies. I'd wager that he's fucking around. Just drop it.

I suppose that Poe's Law does come into effect here.

If you must know, I tried to pick the most obnoxious celebrity I could think of at the time for my handle/avatar when I created this forum account, and for some reason Tyler Perry came to mind. I have no idea why that somehow makes me someone who is "just fucking around."

Funny to see you agreeing with an ad hominem after you admonished me for making one the other day. Hypocrite.

Also, do you have any clue what Poe's Law is?

ravenshrike:

Tyler Perry:

Volf:
No, he just compared Trayvon to his own family, something that he should never had done in the first place

Yes, god forbid the President be human and personalize a tragedy.

Again, he did absolutely nothing that inferred anything about Zimmerman's guilt or innocence, period, end of story.

By personalizing the tragedy he de facto picked sides. It would be as if a black man went and killed some kid in the same situation and Bush went "If I had a son they would look just like Jack." when in point of fact except for skin color they would not look at all similar. And it would have been JUST as unacceptable. You do NOT engage in tragedy on a personal level in public as the president. It's part of the damn job.

DA FUQ?

George W. Bush didn't engage Terry Schiavo on a personal level?

Tyler Perry:

Fox242:
I've said it before elsewhere and it's worth me saying once more: the case is tainted. No matter what happens, someone's gonna come out unsatisfied because people are divided. It was made into a racial issue right off the bat. If it weren't for that, then the world wouldn't be talking about this. It's like Duke Lacrosse all over again. It makes me sick.

It absolutely IS tainted ... not quite like Duke lacrosse, but it is.

Volf:

Fox242:

I know that you're trying to make a good point. But look who you're arguing with. You're arguing with a person who goes by the handle of "Tyler Perry" and has a picture of what I assume to be Tyler Perry in drag for many of his movies. I'd wager that he's fucking around. Just drop it.

I suppose that Poe's Law does come into effect here.

If you must know, I tried to pick the most obnoxious celebrity I could think of at the time for my handle/avatar when I created this forum account, and for some reason Tyler Perry came to mind. I have no idea why that somehow makes me someone who is "just fucking around."

Funny to see you agreeing with an ad hominem after you admonished me for making one the other day. Hypocrite.

Also, do you have any clue what Poe's Law is?

He made a good point, I have no real idea if your being serious with me or if your just doing this to pass the time. As for Tyler Perry comment, I didn't make the connection.

Tyler Perry:

Hey, it's the White Knight coming to the rescue again.

As long as you make claims without evidence.

Tyler Perry:

What "evidence" am I supposed to provide to counter a completely unprovable, preposterous position? Seriously, you and your emo fucking avatar enlighten me, Debate Police.

What does my avatar have to do with anything?

Provide evidence to support your claim that people want "justice" for Trayvon and not a death sentence for him.

Tyler Perry:
everything you ever say

Dude, you are way too emotionally invested in this case, as are many people. Your mind is made up. No amount of indisputable evidence or innocent verdicts would change your stance.

Everyone arguing with Tyler Perry, realize that he's never, ever, ever going to give in. He just wants to win. He wants Zimmerman to fry. He wants the evil white man to pay. There is no reasoning with this person.

Tyler Perry:

ravenshrike:

Tyler Perry:

Yes, god forbid the President be human and personalize a tragedy.

Again, he did absolutely nothing that inferred anything about Zimmerman's guilt or innocence, period, end of story.

By personalizing the tragedy he de facto picked sides. It would be as if a black man went and killed some kid in the same situation and Bush went "If I had a son they would look just like Jack." when in point of fact except for skin color they would not look at all similar. And it would have been JUST as unacceptable. You do NOT engage in tragedy on a personal level in public as the president. It's part of the damn job.

DA FUQ?

George W. Bush didn't engage Terry Schiavo on a personal level?

No he did not. Despicably use his office to ram through a goal, sure. Personalize Terry Schiavo herself, no. Now, his BROTHER may have, I wouldn't know since I never paid attention to him.

i think this is a pretty obvious case of them putting up murder 2 just so they can get the plea for manslaughter. all they will have to say is "dude lets face it, the public hates you. no jury is gonna let you go" (maybe in a more lawyer speak way though)

harmonic:

Tyler Perry:
everything you ever say

Dude, you are way too emotionally invested in this case, as are many people. Your mind is made up. No amount of indisputable evidence or innocent verdicts would change your stance.

Everyone arguing with Tyler Perry, realize that he's never, ever, ever going to give in. He just wants to win. He wants Zimmerman to fry. He wants the evil white man to pay. There is no reasoning with this person.

Tyler Perry is not going to give in, because he is convinced he is right.
And so am I.

Murder 2 seems rather difficult to prove, especially given the whole "depraved mind" bit. Odds are that they want him to plead down to manslaughter, but if his lawyer's worth anything he'll go to court.

Volf:

Provide evidence to support your claim that people want "justice" for Trayvon and not a death sentence for him.

I have better things to do with my time than to burn down a strawman.

Volf:
What does my avatar have to do with anything?

Says the guy who jumped on the train of someone busting on MY avatar. Your lack of self-awareness is amazing.

harmonic:

Tyler Perry:
everything you ever say

Dude, you are way too emotionally invested in this case, as are many people. Your mind is made up. No amount of indisputable evidence or innocent verdicts would change your stance.

Everyone arguing with Tyler Perry, realize that he's never, ever, ever going to give in. He just wants to win. He wants Zimmerman to fry. He wants the evil white man to pay. There is no reasoning with this person.

That's a complete lie, and you know it. At no point have I said anything you have claimed. You are lying.

My position on this case is clear. It is apparent to me that George Zimmerman behaved in a reckless manner that caused an unarmed, innocent person to die. I have never, once, said anything about the "evil white man" or anything you accuse me of.

You are full of shit.

If anyone can find anything that backs up Harmonic's notion of how I view this case, please repost it.

This is certainly going to court. Zimmerman would be a fool to plead a lesser charge.

If I were Zimmerman, or his attorney, and the prosecution went with a charge of second degree murder, I would tell them, after minutes of hysterical laughter, that I would see them in court. This is going to be the easiest court case ever.

Of course Zimmerman should still demand a judge over a jury. No matter how solid a case is, the jury can always screw it up. I refuse to respect any decision handed down by a jury, even if I agree with them. Allowing 12 idiots with no formal knowledge to decide a mans fate is an abomination of justice.

xDarc:
If you kill someone you should stand a trial. Never mind that the whole reason for self defense laws is so that you do not have to stand trial or be treated like a criminal.

But only when self-defence is undoubtable.
Clearly, here it's not.

Zimmerman has gone out of his way to get into a "Stand Your Ground"-situation. He hunts a "shady-looking" suspect around at night, all while presumably being encouraged by that gun he was wearing.

Martin acted stupid as well. He could have called the police. Or gone home. Maybe he didn't do that because he didn't want to lead his tail there.

But if he had actually managed to beat Zimmerman to death, I'd like to see the pro-Zim crowd here. You're being followed home by some creep, you confront him verbally, he ignores you, you run away, he hunts you and when you confront him, he draws a gun on you. If anything, Martin seems to have a more plausible case of "Stand your ground" than Zimmerman.

At the VERY LEAST, Zimmerman needs to be trialed. In a shady case like this, where one guy goes vigilante (as recorded on phone) and the only evidence of his self-defence claim is his testimony, you have to take it to the courts to find out the truth.

And THAT is what most of the pro-Martin crowd is all about. It's not so much that Zimmerman needs to fry, but that he just had to claim the nigger attacked him and he's being let go.

EDIT:
Also, with a law as powerful as "Stand your ground", which enables anyone to use deadly force if they feel threatened enough, I think it's very important to deter wannabe vigilantes from interpreting the law to liberally.
Next thing you know some dude with a Dirty Harry complex walks around and tells a couple of youngsters to "stop loitering" or something and when the youngsters begin posturing and heckling he just shoots to kill.

cthulhuspawn82:
This is certainly going to court. Zimmerman would be a fool to plead a lesser charge.

If I were Zimmerman, or his attorney, and the prosecution went with a charge of second degree murder, I would tell them, after minutes of hysterical laughter, that I would see them in court. This is going to be the easiest court case ever.

I'll agree with that one. There's no chance Zimmerman would be convicted on anything other than maybe man-2.

cthulhuspawn82:
Of course Zimmerman should still demand a judge over a jury. No matter how solid a case is, the jury can always screw it up. I refuse to respect any decision handed down by a jury, even if I agree with them. Allowing 12 idiots with no formal knowledge to decide a mans fate is an abomination of justice.

Got any better ideas for a justice system there?

Tyler Perry:

Got any better ideas for a justice system there?

Letting some community college kid with an associates in law decide the case would be infinitely better than a jury system. If you are going to decide a case by jury, you can save the taxpayers a lot of money and just flip a coin to determine guilt immediately, you would get the same results.

cthulhuspawn82:
This is certainly going to court. Zimmerman would be a fool to plead a lesser charge.

If I were Zimmerman, or his attorney, and the prosecution went with a charge of second degree murder, I would tell them, after minutes of hysterical laughter, that I would see them in court. This is going to be the easiest court case ever.

Of course Zimmerman should still demand a judge over a jury. No matter how solid a case is, the jury can always screw it up. I refuse to respect any decision handed down by a jury, even if I agree with them. Allowing 12 idiots with no formal knowledge to decide a mans fate is an abomination of justice.

Especially when those 12 people are the ones too stupid to get out of jury duty. Seriously though, it has been proven time and time again that decisions made by groups are more likely to be right. When there is a group you weed out individual bias that could skew the decision. It is not much of an issue if one guy is bias against X if everyone else is not. If that one guy is the only one making the decision, then it is a problem.

I think you are totally wrong about him wanting to go to court though. There is no way in hell he is going to walk away from this without manslaughter at the minimum. The SYG law simply does not apply to him, he is the one that initiated contact when he decided to follow Martin. Any decent lawyer is going to want to plead this down to manslaughter, with a 9 year sentence (well 9.25 years).

Since they have pressed charges it means they have something that they think will stick. My guess is they will use all the discrepancies in the story to discredit Zimmermans version of events. After all, he has already admitted to the killing, all the prosecution has to do is discredit his claim of self defense. Do that and the case is won.

Fox242:
I've said it before elsewhere and it's worth me saying once more: the case is tainted. No matter what happens, someone's gonna come out unsatisfied because people are divided. It was made into a racial issue right off the bat. If it weren't for that, then the world wouldn't be talking about this. It's like Duke Lacrosse all over again. It makes me sick.

The world talked about Casey anthony for months.
We talked about Natalie Halloway for months.
We talked about Lacy Peterson for months, and i could go on for days about the sensational crime dramas that usually grip america once a year.

This years big one is Trayvon Martin, and yes It was a racial issue right off the bat. Im sorry but just because a white person isnt involved does not make it non racial. But more than that it had plenty of sensation about it. The media didnt act responsibly, but it still does not mean that the issues involved in it (innocent teen shot dead, gun laws, racial profiling) are not worth the countries attention. Does it having a racial issue mean that it is any less significant?

Duke Lacross was a different animal as the courts immeadiately got on that and got to the bottom. The only reason anyone marched here is becuase it seemed like the courts were not going to bother.

farson135:

feeqmatic:
Zimmerman's statement is not factual it is supposition and when measured against the facts it makes little sense.

Why not? What part of that statement is not supported by the facts other that the girlfriends statement?

I have yet to see any of you "supporters" of Zimmerman

Apparently you have not been reading my posts throughout this topic. In my first post (#61) I stated that Zimmerman would likely be charged with 2nd degree murder and throughout this topic I have stated that Zimmerman reacted foolishly.

admit that his statement and the facts simply dont meld well.

Like what?

Furthermore you keep throwing his statement out there as if its factual,

It is the only fact we do have. Specifically that he said it. In fact if you look at my statement you will see I stated quote, "except that by Zimmermans statement". In other words I was saying that you were not taking into account the story we actually had and were instead just guessing.

it is pathetically intellectually dishonest and makes me wonder why i bother responding.

Maybe because you are pathetically inadequate to the task of debating me but your pride will not allow you to back down (backed up by your perpetual insults and lack of content).

You keep responding to BlahBlah's trolling but refuse to address arguments that dont work in your favor.

And what is my favor exactly? Considering I have actually stated on this very thread that I will be using this case as an example to my students on how NOT to do it.

Zimmerman was 5-11 250 pounds, Martin was 6-3 150 pounds. You want to rethink your logic on who is "larger" It is clear from the video that Zimmerman was of a solid build, martin measures up as a string bean skinny kid. Again you are conveniently leaving out facts that dont support your points, it is getting sad.

Actually you are several weeks behind. That height was reported as an estimation for Martin. For Zimmerman his weight was recorded when he was arrested earlier but he lost a lot of weight between that time and the shooting (6 years is a long time). Actual height and weight-

Martin-6'0, 160IB
Zimmerman- 5'9, 170IB

http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/george-zimmerman-weighs-170-trayvon-martin-160

Your questions dont acknowledge the fact that this is just my version of the story.

And your version is not backed up by anything (which was my overall point).

For all we know Trayvon was cornered

Cornered on an open lot. A couple of pages ago someone posted a picture of the place that Martin was shot, I suggest you look at it.

and he was already on the phone so he couldnt call the police

Wait a minute, Martin was on the phone with his girlfriend. Are saying that that call was so important that he could not hang up and call 911?

Either way, you are right that it is possible that Martin could have done a few more things to end the situation

Possible my ass.

but the HUGE difference is that Martin did not kill anyone.

If Zimmermans statement is true then he may have. Getting your head beat into the concrete is not pleasant and is very life threatening.

He does not have to prove self defense

Yes he does. You cannot just randomly attack someone just because they are following you. If that were legal I could legally beat someone up every day.

Zimmerman does because he made the decision to use deadly force on an unarmed teenage kid.

An unarmed teenage kid who seems to have been too stupid to properly deescalate the situation and may have in fact escalated it.

You Martin supporters don't seem to want to acknowledge that point. Maybe you should take your own advice and drop the fucking bias.

know that his story does not add up to facts that are available.

Which part?

I will concede that we dont know all of the facts, but the ones we do know do not point into Zimmermans favor

Actually most of the facts made available either do support Zimmerman or they are neutral.

and clearly there must be fire from the smoke for the prosecutor to go all the way to Murder 2.

Or......she is hoping he will plea down. That seems to be her bread and butter.

All I want is for you and others to stop trolling with BlahBlah, stop throwing out suppositions and honestly admit and analyze the facts that we know.

You know I was just about to say the same to you. Maybe you should do a bit of research and look through a few of my posts before you talk to me again.

I will take one last shot at this, and sorry im not going to break this down into quote pieces, and its probably going to be long. If you dont read the whole thing simply let me know and we can end this here.

1- The girlfriends statement and phone records greatly dispute Zimmerman's story. If he was on the phone, how exactly was he able to sneak up on Zimmerman, when exactly could he sneak up on Zimmerman if he was busy carrying on a conversation? Is he some sort of ninja? Furthermore, I should need only 1 fact to dispute a lie, but in this case we also have the placement of the body. Zimmerman says he was walking back to his car when he was attacked but the body was found no where near the car. Zimmerman says he feared for his life because his head was being slammed on the concrete, but the body was found in grass. Those are three significantly contradictory facts that do not meld well with Zimmerman's story. Please if you can provide solid explanation to reconcile them with Zimmerman's specious accounts of the nights events do so, otherwise for the sake of intellectual honesty, refrain from continuing with that particular line of argument.

The tape shows little sign of struggle outside of a possible cut on the back of his head. It is true he was treated at the scene, but there is no blood on his shirt which would have been consistent with a situation where a guy shot another guy who was on top of him from a prone position. Furthermore police were not wearing gloves which would have been standard procedure when dealing with a bloody victim. His face hardly looks as if it has a scratch on it, but admittedly the tape is not of perfect quality. Sadly the tape does not clearly vindicate either story, but it does more to hurt Zimmerman than help him. Considering the suppostion of his family, you would have expected a bruised and swollen face, blood on his shirt from a broken nose or from Trayvon, something more to insinuate that he had been in a life or death struggle less than 45 minutes ago.

You have provided little explanation to dispute these FACTS or the obvious logic other than stating Zimmerman's story over and over as if it is fact and not supposition. The only fact about that statement is that this was Zimmerman's original statement, that is it. It is not a factual account of what happened because it is not corroborated by a third party and it is definitely not supported by the facts at hand. It IS intellectually dishonest because you seem smart enough to know that supposition is not fact and in the case of an accused murderer it should never be used in lieu of any real evidence that contradicts it. And there is plenty of that

Maybe his defense lawyers will have something to completely support his statement, maybe ballistics will completely eviscerate his story (my theory) but either way his story about being jumped and attacked by his car AFTER the kid ran away from him just sounds ludacris at this stage.

Aside from the aforementioned facts, the story just doesn't make any sense. You state that you work with kids correct? I do too. In fact i work with kids much like Trayvon, wanna be thugs who listen to too much rap music and have lax parents that let them get cliche tattoos. (his tattoos are comically bad, the types of tattoos only suburban thugs get) One thing these kids are definitely not is brave. These are the types of kids who will only fight when a teacher is around to break it up quickly, not the types to challenge an older (and yes larger-get to that in a second) strange man under any circumstance let alone one that was following him in the middle of the night for no reason. The idea that he would double back to start a fight after getting away does not sound like any type of logical behavior for a teenager of any ilk.

2- You are correct to say that Martin was too stupid to deescalate the situation. Sadly deescilation it is something that i constantly preach to young black men on a regular basis. Aside from the fact that the nature of the confict was unknown (did he even have a choice to deescalate?) the bottom line is you cannot expect kids to use adult logic, especially under pressure. Who do you think should have the highest burden of right minded level headed thinking and responsibility in this case, The 17 year old kid who was literaly minding his own business, or the 28 year old adult with a gun? You are a teacher. If you fought a kid in your school, unless it was [b]aundantly[\b] clear that you were simpy defending yourself, would you not lose you job?

You are making the incredibly dubious error of attributing adult logic to a teenager, as a teacher surely you know this is a wrong minded way of perceiving teenage behavior. It would be great if all of our students had our level of maturity in decision making, however you know full well that at the end of the day they do not, which is why it is up to adults (such as Zimmerman) to react with more responsibility whenever possible. You have seemingly admitted this, yet you cannot endorse the idea that this irresponsible adult may have commited a crime in this sitaution and you seem to consitently turn a blind eye to further evidence. Lets assume that Trayvon did take a swing at Zimmerman after Zimmerman followed him and confronted him. Is it still not a problematic case of self defense? Would any of this have happeend if Zimmerman had simply called the police and went on about his business as a neighborhood watchmen is supposed to do? Recognizing these two obvious faults, how can you make the comment that 90% of the case against Zimmerman is media lies?

3- He doesn't have to prove self defense because he was shot. He is not on trail; he is dead. That is a very facetious line of questioning. All the prosecution has to prove (now since its murder 2 buy you are right we are probably looking at manslaughter) is that Zimmerman acted wrecklessly and it lead to Martin's death. Is it not wreckless to follow a "suspicious" person in the middle of the night while carryin a weapon? Is it not wreckless to leave the safety of a vehicle in this situation? Is it not wreckless to go against dispatcher advice to stand down and wait for police?

Zimmerman has to prove that he was attacked unprovoked, and feared for his life because he is the killer on trial. Again, please provide adequate evidence outside of Zimmerman's story and further supposition or right wing blogs to support that idea. The only thing that is supported by any evidence is that an altercation did occur and that Zimmerman was getting the worst of it when he shot Trayvon. We don't know who started it. Please feel free to provide a story that actually fits with the facts to support this theory.

4-Your link about height and weight uses the video supposition of a "friend", not any facts to make the point that Zimmerman was 5'9 170. A friend that hardly was able to hold the moniker of "friend" under pressure. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm46SA6lsWQ Feel free to look up that entire interview btw, there is a reason we havent heard from Oliver in a few weeks.

This AGAIN shows if not your bias, than an inability construct a solid honest argument without obvious flaws. The police report holds much more weight than a "friends" description. And the mothers description of her own son holds more weight than a police report. Also, the videos of Zimmerman do not depict a man who is 5'9 170. He is clearly of a solid stocky build. Comparing him to a kid who from all accounts between 6 ft and 6-2 150-160 pounds would clearly depict Zimmerman as the "larger" individual. The fact that you would seriously throw that point out there multiple times greatly throws into question your bias in this case. It seems like you are more focused on proving me wrong than actaully seeking the truth.

I wholeheartedly admit that i am in the "martin" camp on this situation. But its not because im black, not because i teach and mentor kids like Trayvon, its because the known, obvious, and logical facts support the idea that he was killed unjustly (obvious since he only had skittles and tea) and that a crime was committed in his death, and that justice had not been served by not at least pressing charges on his killer. In my mind there is no reason an unarmed person should end up dead and the killer should go free unless there is clear evidence of self defense or the person was in the middle of a crime. We know that Martin commited no crime, and the clearness of self defense is quickly dismantled by the fact that Martin ran away from Zimmerman who was following him.

I can admit that the media has been slanted and biased in this case. I can admit that we do not know all of the answers and that there could yet be some evidence that clears Zimmerman's name. But we dont have much of that. The fact that you and a few others keep using Zimmerman's story, and claims about trayvon's character, and slanted blogs, statements from "friends" etc and then claim that "90%" of the story if fabricated by the media is outright madness in the face of what we do know. Please if you respond, do no respond to my words, simply respond with some evidence that shows that Zimmerman should not have been charged with a crime that night. In my opinion you need to show:

That Zimmerman had good reason to follow Trayvon validating him escalating the altercation
That Trayvon was clearly the aggressor when the situation became physical
That Zimmerman made attempts to defuse the situation at any time.
That Zimmerman reasonably feared for his life.

Feel free to add anything else that you think furthers the idea that Zimmerman acted in self defense. And dont use Zimmerman's supposition as evidence it does not hold up to the stardard of plausability nor is it corroborated by a third unbiased party. I surmise you will have a hard time doing any of this, which is why i dont understand how you can refer to yourself as unbiased.

Just to give you a heads up:

1-By Zimmerman's own words he followed Trayvon becuase he "looked suspicious" even after being cautioned not to. He left the safety of his car to pursue and follow trayvon which clearly was the first point of escalation and severly hurts a self defense claim

2-No eye witness accounts availabe clearly identify who started the fight.

3-The only person who seemed to try to difuse the situation is Trayvon as he initially ran when Zimmerman followed him.

4-There is no evidence outside of Zimmerman's camp that provides any support that Zimmerman suffered a "viscious beating" that would possibly evoke his right to use deadly force.

You can definitely provide information to prove that the media distorted this, you can claim that many black leaders involved are doing more to fan flames than solve the issue. But you cannot claim that people who are "pro martin" are biased emotional fools for being able to follow the evidence provided and support the idea of arresting Zimmerman. Feel free to prove me wrong.

feeqmatic:
Zimmerman says he feared for his life because his head was being slammed on the concrete, but the body was found in grass.

xDarc:

feeqmatic:
Zimmerman says he feared for his life because his head was being slammed on the concrete, but the body was found in grass.

Nice picture. So where did the police say they found the body?

o wait... "laying face down in the grass"

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/03/28/sanford_files/PoliceReports.pdf

scroll down to the bottom

For Zimmermans story to be plausible, he would had to have shot Martin from a lying down prone position with Martin on top. Martin would have had to have stood up walked to the grass and then fallen with his arms under him. For what seemed to be an instantly fatal gun shot wound, unless you think action movie deaths are realistic, this sounds very specious. Suspicious enough to warrant an arrest without a bunch of outrage and marches spurring it on. Nice try though

I'm sorry, but at this point, it's impossible for this guy to get a fair trial in the United States. Whether he did it or not, this guy is probably screwed.

The Brave Taco Man:
I'm sorry, but at this point, it's impossible for this guy to get a fair trial in the United States. Whether he did it or not, this guy is probably screwed.

This is the same state that acquitted Casey anthony, and the same country that acquitted R. Kelly and OJ simpson. Anything is possible

feeqmatic:
I will take one last shot at this, and sorry im not going to break this down into quote pieces, and its probably going to be long. If you dont read the whole thing simply let me know and we can end this here.

I will read the whole thing (you took the time to write it so I should read it) but for future reference if you are not going to be directly quoting what I say you should snip it especially when the posts are as long as my last one.

If he was on the phone, how exactly was he able to sneak up on Zimmerman when exactly could he sneak up on Zimmerman if he was busy carrying on a conversation?

It is called not talking. I do not know how you talk on the phone but I refuse to even attempt to multitask. I do ONE thing at a time.

Zimmerman says he was walking back to his car when he was attacked but the body was found no where near the car.

Nowhere near is relative. According to the 911 tape he followed Martin a distance, (his statement) turned around, and went back. In other words he might not be next to his car but still near it.

Zimmerman says he feared for his life because his head was being slammed on the concrete, but the body was found in grass.

Because there was grass and concrete.

feeqmatic:
For Zimmermans story to be plausible, he would had to have shot Martin from a lying down prone position with Martin on top. Martin would have had to have stood up walked to the grass and then fallen with his arms under him. For what seemed to be an instantly fatal gun shot wound, unless you think action movie deaths are realistic, this sounds very specious.

The BACK of Zimmerman's head was supposedly hit on the ground and (according to the statement) Martin directly broke his nose. In other words Zimmerman was on his back.

Second, mull this around a bit, Martin falls over to one side of Zimmerman and tries to crawl away but dies as he is doing it.

BTW gunshot wounds are rarely instantly fatal. In the vast majority of cases if the victim receives medical attention within the first few minutes they will live. Martin did not receive any attention until the police arrived some time later. In other words he could have been alive and moving but bleeding to death in the mean time.

Those are three significantly contradictory facts that do not meld well with Zimmerman's story. Please if you can provide solid explanation to reconcile them with Zimmerman's specious accounts of the nights events do so, otherwise for the sake of intellectual honesty, refrain from continuing with that particular line of argument.

The problem you have is that this is alien to you. You need to stop trying to tell me how it is when you do not understand it yourself.

The tape shows little sign of struggle outside of a possible cut on the back of his head.

It was commented that his nose looked swollen.

It is true he was treated at the scene, but there is no blood on his shirt which would have been consistent with a situation where a guy shot another guy who was on top of him from a prone position.

Depends on where he was shot and the initial bleeding and many other factors. If he was dehydrated, that combined with the thickness of the hoodie could have kept the blood off Zimmerman until he moved. What's more Zimmerman may have had his jacket zipped up and blood would not have shown up well on that jacket.

Furthermore police were not wearing gloves which would have been standard procedure when dealing with a bloody victim. His face hardly looks as if it has a scratch on it, but admittedly the tape is not of perfect quality. Sadly the tape does not clearly vindicate either story, but it does more to hurt Zimmerman than help him. Considering the suppostion of his family, you would have expected a bruised and swollen face, blood on his shirt from a broken nose or from Trayvon, something more to insinuate that he had been in a life or death struggle less than 45 minutes ago.

Ever had your head beaten into the concrete? It doesn't matter if his life was fleeing away in that second because every second he did not act he was losing mental and physical abilities that would have prevented any rational action further down the line.

Maybe his defense lawyers will have something to completely support his statement, maybe ballistics will completely eviscerate his story (my theory) but either way his story about being jumped and attacked by his car AFTER the kid ran away from him just sounds ludacris at this stage.

Considering the kid did not have the intelligence to get help but instead (even by the girlfriends statement) confronted Zimmerman I do not see it out of the realm of possibility.

One thing these kids are definitely not is brave.

No, but they can be extremely stupid.

The idea that he would double back to start a fight after getting away does not sound like any type of logical behavior for a teenager of any ilk.

Mindset changes and adjusts with the territory. That is one of the things I have to teach my students.

(did he even have a choice to deescalate?)

According to the girlfriend and Zimmerman, he did. Those are the two stories we have and they are coming from different sides.

the bottom line is you cannot expect kids to use adult logic, especially under pressure.

It is not adult logic to seek help when attacked. That is something that is drilled into kids from a young age and it stays with older people.

Who do you think should have the highest burden of right minded level headed thinking and responsibility in this case, The 17 year old kid who was literaly minding his own business, or the 28 year old adult with a gun? You are a teacher.

Considering that Martin was apparently running he had the right idea he just did not follow up on it.

If you fought a kid in your school, unless it was [b]aundantly[\b] clear that you were simpy defending yourself, would you not lose you job?

Only if I lost. I teach hand to hand combat, self defense techniques, survival skills, and firearm usage at a friend's self defense school. I also am a RSO (Range Safety Officer) and have taught for ROTC units, the BSA, 4-H, and on

Is it not wreckless to follow a "suspicious" person in the middle of the night while carryin a weapon?

I am not sure how carrying a firearm is relevant but yes to the other part.

Is it not wreckless to leave the safety of a vehicle in this situation?

Yes.

Is it not wreckless to go against dispatcher advice to stand down and wait for police?

According to Zimmerman he did. He chased Martin a little ways and when the dispatcher told him to back off he said he did. If he did not then yes he was reckless but do you have any proof that he did not?

Zimmerman has to prove that he was attacked unprovoked, and feared for his life because he is the killer on trial.

You were alright up until the second part. Sorry but it is innocent until proven guilty not the other way around AND he was not on trial until probable cause could be established.

Again, please provide adequate evidence outside of Zimmerman's story and further supposition or right wing blogs to support that idea. The only thing that is supported by any evidence is that an altercation did occur and that Zimmerman was getting the worst of it when he shot Trayvon. We don't know who started it. Please feel free to provide a story that actually fits with the facts to support this theory.

First of all right-wing blogs? Supposition much?

Anyway the girlfriend said that Martin talked to Zimmerman first. I see nothing in the conversation that she described that would implicate Zimmerman. In fact that best we've got is that Martin said something that could imply he was pissed and was going to fight.

[/quote]Your link about height and weight uses the video supposition of a "friend", not any facts to make the point that Zimmerman was 5'9 170. A friend that hardly was able to hold the moniker of "friend" under pressure. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm46SA6lsWQ Feel free to look up that entire interview btw, there is a reason we havent heard from Oliver in a few weeks. [/quote]

Yeah and the friend backs up the picture that shows he lost weight. Look at the police picture and compare it to the newer picture. See the difference?

This AGAIN shows if not your bias, than an inability construct a solid honest argument without obvious flaws.

You used a weight from 6 YEARS ago that is not shown by the recent picture of him. Who is biased again?

The police report holds much more weight than a "friends" description.

Once again the police report was from 6 years prior to that. Are you the same weight that you were 6 years ago? Then consider the fact that this guy apparently wanted to get in shape and did so.

Also, the videos of Zimmerman do not depict a man who is 5'9 170. He is clearly of a solid stocky build.

So is this guy- http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/tyler-dropped-the-weight-built-carved-physique.html

Comparing him to a kid who from all accounts between 6 ft and 6-2 150-160 pounds would clearly depict Zimmerman as the "larger" individual.

A little pudgier around the middle does not equal larger by any means. Who is the bigger guy in this picture-

image

The fact that you would seriously throw that point out there multiple times greatly throws into question your bias in this case. It seems like you are more focused on proving me wrong than actaully seeking the truth.

You know I was about to say the same thing about you.

In my mind there is no reason an unarmed person should end up dead and the killer should go free unless there is clear evidence of self defense or the person was in the middle of a crime.

You know there is this little called the 4th Amendment that requires there to be probable cause before a warrant or arrest be made. There is no proof Zimmerman was an imminent danger to community therefore the police taking some time to go over the evidence before arresting him is only prudent. In fact that is how all cases work. You don't like it, move somewhere else (although aside from 3rd World dictatorships you will have a short list).

BTW Zimmerman was arrested after the shooting he was just let go until they could build a case.

We know that Martin commited no crime

Unless Zimmerman is telling the truth in which case Martin assaulted him for no reason. You call me bias but you refuse to admit that possibility.

and the clearness of self defense is quickly dismantled by the fact that Martin ran away from Zimmerman who was following him.

If Martin really ran away then why was Zimmerman anywhere near him? Martins girlfriend did not report him being out of breath or constantly running. Apparently he ran but not far.

The fact that you and a few others keep using Zimmerman's story

Wow, using one of the only stories we have available as evidence. That is unprecedented (sarcasm).

claims about trayvon's character

And when did I do that?

slanted blogs

And when did I do that?

statements from "friends"

Because that is probably more true than a 6 year old report. You got anything better?

and then claim that "90%" of the story if fabricated by the media

Would you mind telling me your name please? I want to make sure that if I ever get someone to write my biography that you are not it because you just make up the stuff I say.

Please if you respond, do no respond to my words, simply respond with some evidence that shows that Zimmerman should not have been charged with a crime that night.

It is called the 4th Amendment. Know your rights.

That Zimmerman had good reason to follow Trayvon validating him escalating the altercation

According the Zimmerman he stopped following Martin and the girlfriend stated that Martin initiated the conversation. Do you have proof otherwise?

That Trayvon was clearly the aggressor when the situation became physical

There does not seem to be any reason for Zimmerman to initiate the confrontation. The girlfriends statement does not back up the idea.

That Zimmerman made attempts to defuse the situation at any time.

Kind of hard to do if he was on the ground and unable to get up (which he say happened).

That Zimmerman reasonably feared for his life.

Getting your head smashed into the concrete is deadly.

And dont use Zimmerman's supposition as evidence it does not hold up to the stardard of plausability nor is it corroborated by a third unbiased party.

You have yet to prove that Zimmermans account is implausible. You say it is but you do not provide any proof. The only evidence we have is Zimmermans word, the girlfriends statement, and the statements by various third parties that include Zimmerman being on the ground, a third person being on the ground, and Martin being on the ground. Also we have the police report which says that Zimmerman was injured and had grass on his back.

I surmise you will have a hard time doing any of this, which is why i dont understand how you can refer to yourself as unbiased.

I wonder if you can actually prove anything you say. You say you have proof but what is it? What, is your spidey sense tingling? Sorry, but that does not fly. Zimmermans story combined with the girlfriends statement combined with the various other evidence says that Zimmerman probably did act in some form of self defense. Do you have any proof whatsoever to disprove that?

By Zimmerman's own words he followed Trayvon becuase he "looked suspicious" even after being cautioned not to.

So I cannot use Zimmermans statement but YOU can? Hypocrisy much?

Second according to his statement he stopped following Martin after being told to do so. Stop accusing me of bias if you cannot even keep the story straight.

No eye witness accounts availabe clearly identify who started the fight.

Except through implication as I stated.

The only person who seemed to try to difuse the situation is Trayvon as he initially ran when Zimmerman followed him.

But then he came back and initiated the conversation with Zimmerman (according to the girlfriend). In addition if it was Zimmerman screaming for help (which he said it was) then he was trying to get help and end the fight before he drew.

There is no evidence outside of Zimmerman's camp that provides any support that Zimmerman suffered a "viscious beating" that would possibly evoke his right to use deadly force.

Except the police report stating it and the fact that he was seen by the EMTs.

But you cannot claim that people who are "pro martin" are biased emotional fools for being able to follow the evidence provided and support the idea of arresting Zimmerman. Feel free to prove me wrong.

I do not hold that all of "Martin's supporters" are biased but you certainly are.

Unless you have some actual proof please do not talk to me again. I do not want to waste my time when you have already made up your mind.

farson135:
Snip

1- Which is more plausible, Trayvon put his girlfriend on hold to silently sneak up on Zimmerman (with a hands free head set on mind you) as he walked to his car AFTER running away once and "walking fast"(This is how it would have to play out according to Zimmerman's story), or that Zimmerman continued his pursuit of Martin after he hung up the phone with the police and eventually confronted Martin which is corroborated by his girlfriends testimony and the phone records. Oddly you consistently use the girlfriends testimony as proof that Martin was the aggressor (which it does not really support) yet ignore the fact that if the GF testimony is accurate, Zimmerman was not innocently walking back to his car or sucker punched as he stated. Please reconcile that factoid for me. I will probably referring to this fact several times.

2. This map shows the distance between Zimmerman's car and where the body is found. http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-map-911-call-timing.jpg

There are a ton of maps out there, Even the ones that think Martin is the aggressor dont support the idea that Z was simply walking back to his car or that he could have been snuck up on effectively. Other stories suggest that when Trayvon saw Zimmerman they had a verbal exchange. "Why are you following me" is stated by both sides of the story. Z's side says this was followed by a sucker punch to the nose. In what world would Zimmerman allow the "suspicious" looking individual to run up on him and punch him in the nose while he had a gun holstered? The father says that he reached for his cell phone... (and not his gun)really? Even if this were the case, it still doesn't explain how Martin ends up face down on the grass with his hands under him. And none of the stories support Z's original statement of being jumped by surprise, nor does it explain the visual lack of injuries.

Your explanation of how Martin's body ends up in the grass had only one good point, which is that no one really knows what happened. Maybe he did crawl up the field before expiring. Still the absence of any blood on Zs clothes hurts the idea that he shot him at close range while getting his head banged into the ground. You made attempts to reconcile the obvious facts with your opposing theory, but when you start talking about blood hydration and what not clearly you must see that you are reaching. The bottom line is that there are too many holes in Zimmerman's story, the distance from teh car, the timeline of the girls phone call, the lack of physical signs, the logic of a teenager, etc all at a minimum suggest that using his story as the baseline for his innocence is iffy at best intellectually disingenuous at worse.

3. I stand corrected in terms of citing the 6 year old police report. I had assumed that the weight description of 240 had came from the original police report. Upon further review the orginal report oddly lists no weight for Zimmerman. This still does not negate the fact that the surveilance video shows Zimmerman as a solid guy, and that Martin was 6-2 150-160 pounds, clearly showing him to be quite skinny. The most common current picture of Z still shows him to hold some weight http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/05/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?iid=article_sidebar, and his new mugshot photo is likely the result of stress induced weight loss according to his camp. It is still highly disingenuous to describe Martin as the bigger man. You make it worse by showing that... odd picture. I seriously doubt either of those individuals were 6-2 160 and 17 years old.

4- Martin had committed no crime to warrant Zimmerman following him. You are being glib. Had Zimmerman not watched and followed Trayvon (likely even before he called the police) none of this would have happened. That is why the fact that he committed no crime is important. You cannot say this is trayvon's fault for swinging first (which is not supported by any facts) when he would not have been in this situation if he was not followed.

5- We know Martin ran based on Zimmerman's phone call to the police at around the 2 min mark http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL72w4xiTVU The distance and speed is not important. What is clear is that Martin made the point to deescalate the situation and Zimmerman escalated by leaving his car. When i speak of escalation i mean what events took place that were integral in this happening. Again we do not know who threw the first punch, but it is obvious that nothing happens if Z doesnt leave his car. Furthermore there is definite reasoning to believe that Z would initiate the altercation. He had already shown over-zealousness when he left his car. He expressed clear frustration and resentment about the situation toward the police while on the phone, and he knew going forth that he was carrying a gun so he felt protected. All of this is far more plausible than a 17 year old kid sneak attacking someone he had just ran from. However, even if that was the case, it would be his right under the stand your ground laws.

Other than that let me apologize, i must have you mixed up with a few other individuals who have been posting fake pictures of Trayvon, links to right wing blogs, and making outlandish statements on the case. If you have done none of those things i completely retract my statements about your behavior.

My last point is that having proven Zimmerman's story(s) implausible, and showing through his own words and voice that he escalated this confrontation (by leaving his car to follow) how viable can a self defense claim be? I am sure we will find out more when the case gets underway, maybe there is something to show otherwise, however i find it hard to believe that charges would be pressed (of such severity) if there was no case here.

Zim's arraignment set for May 29. Guess not much new is going to be coming out for a while.

evilneko:
Zim's arraignment set for May 29. Guess not much new is going to be coming out for a while.

doesn't The state need to show all their evidence within the next 15 days? That will be interesting I think.

dystopiaINC:

evilneko:
Zim's arraignment set for May 29. Guess not much new is going to be coming out for a while.

doesn't The state need to show all their evidence within the next 15 days? That will be interesting I think.

Having just gone through a quasi-court trial recently, we had to present our evidence 24 hours before the hearing. So it's probably something similar to that but in grown-up court.

dystopiaINC:

evilneko:
Zim's arraignment set for May 29. Guess not much new is going to be coming out for a while.

doesn't The state need to show all their evidence within the next 15 days? That will be interesting I think.

I don't think it's required to be made available to the public until the trial actually begins. Available to the defense, yes, but it's doubtful they'll turn around and show it to the public unless it undeniably exonerates Zim.

So we may be well into June before we find out anything new and substantive.

I wouldn't mind that so much I guess. I'd rather it go quiet, let this thread die down, and start a new one when the trial actually begins. That way, we don't carry around the baggage this one has...

evilneko:

dystopiaINC:

evilneko:
Zim's arraignment set for May 29. Guess not much new is going to be coming out for a while.

doesn't The state need to show all their evidence within the next 15 days? That will be interesting I think.

I don't think it's required to be made available to the public until the trial actually begins. Available to the defense, yes, but it's doubtful they'll turn around and show it to the public unless it undeniably exonerates Zim.

So we may be well into June before we find out anything new and substantive.

I wouldn't mind that so much I guess. I'd rather it go quiet, let this thread die down, and start a new one when the trial actually begins. That way, we don't carry around the baggage this one has...

But it builds character, back in my day we used to carry our baggage uphill both ways in the snow. And we liked it that way.

feeqmatic:
Which is more plausible, Trayvon put his girlfriend on hold to silently sneak up on Zimmerman (with a hands free head set on mind you) as he walked to his car AFTER running away once and "walking fast"(This is how it would have to play out according to Zimmerman's story), or that Zimmerman continued his pursuit of Martin after he hung up the phone with the police and eventually confronted Martin which is corroborated by his girlfriends testimony and the phone records.

He didn't have to put his girlfriend on hold all he had to do was walk and not say anything.

It is far more likely that Zimmerman decided to return to his car and Martin came back around. If Martin really wanted to get away he just would have gone home (which according to that picture you showed was not far away). Zimmerman got out of his car and the kid decided to confront him (kids are stupid), Zimmerman hung up, and Martin confronted him.

Oddly you consistently use the girlfriends testimony as proof that Martin was the aggressor (which it does not really support)

The girlfriend stated that Martin initiated the conversation.

yet ignore the fact that if the GF testimony is accurate, Zimmerman was not innocently walking back to his car or sucker punched as he stated. Please reconcile that factoid for me. I will probably referring to this fact several times.

How? The girlfriends statement never mentions Zimmerman's position nor does it mention who attacked first. In fact what seems to have happened is that Martin came back and started talking to Zimmerman.

This map shows the distance between Zimmerman's car and where the body is found. http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-map-911-call-timing.jpg

One, that is not a long distance. I do not know in shape you are but I sure as hell could jog that distance very quickly. In fact if you listen to the recording of the call you see that between the door closing and Zimmerman acknowledging the 911 operator, 20 seconds pass. By my estimation that distance is a medium jog in 20 seconds.

There are a ton of maps out there, Even the ones that think Martin is the aggressor dont support the idea that Z was simply walking back to his car or that he could have been snuck up on effectively.

How in the blue fuck can you prove that?

In what world would Zimmerman allow the "suspicious" looking individual to run up on him and punch him in the nose while he had a gun holstered?

Because although the suspect was suspicious he did not have permission to draw. In addition break downs in basic self defense logic and situational awareness are commonplace in self defense scenarios.

BTW not running just walking.

The father says that he reached for his cell phone... (and not his gun)really?

Yeah. In my CHL class we spent a lot of time talking about cell phone holders and putting 911 on speed dial in order to cut the number of buttons you push. Basic firearm self defense, every time you get away without drawing you have achieved a victory.

You seem to be under the impression that as a CHL you can just draw and be fine. YOU ARE WRONG. If you draw your firearm you should EXPECT to be arrested and to have your gun taken (perhaps permanently depending on the state). In addition you are quite likely to eat some concrete after the LEO puts his shoe to your back (and no I am not exaggerating because it is relatively common). There is a reason self defense occurrences are so under reported in the US.

Even if this were the case, it still doesn't explain how Martin ends up face down on the grass with his hands under him.

Once again Martin fell to the side and started crawling and/or put his hands under him to try and get up. Or maybe he tried to stop the bleeding and put his hands there. Or maybe it just happened that way.

And none of the stories support Z's original statement of being jumped by surprise

And you accuse me of bias. Because there are no other stories from that part of the incident.

BTW he did not say he was "jumped" by surprise only that he was approached and did not realize it until Martin said something. After words he was sucker punched.

nor does it explain the visual lack of injuries.

The police report talks about injuries. I notice you keep glossing over that.

Still the absence of any blood on Zs clothes hurts the idea that he shot him at close range while getting his head banged into the ground.

First of all you combined two ideas there. Don't do that.

Second of all, if his jacket was zipped up, blood would not have been very visible.

Third, I do not care what you saw in the movies, blood does not just spurt everywhere when you shoot something or when you get hit.

You made attempts to reconcile the obvious facts with your opposing theory, but when you start talking about blood hydration and what not clearly you must see that you are reaching.

It's Florida. 90% of that population is probably partially dehydrated 90% of the time. Most people do not drink enough water in the best conditions and in a climate like Florida they lose water without even realizing it. It is not a stretch, it is basic biology and human behavior.

The bottom line is that there are too many holes in Zimmerman's story, the distance from teh car, the timeline of the girls phone call, the lack of physical signs, the logic of a teenager, etc all at a minimum suggest that using his story as the baseline for his innocence is iffy at best intellectually disingenuous at worse.

Actually none of those things even remotely condemn him. You may to think so but it is not the case.

The distance from the car is not that much. The timeline of the girls call does not prove Zimmerman was lying. The physical signs of that attack just might not be visible, the logic of a teenage boy says that you attack (testosterone can make you stupid), etc.

I stand corrected in terms of citing the 6 year old police report. I had assumed that the weight description of 240 had came from the original police report. Upon further review the orginal report oddly lists no weight for Zimmerman. This still does not negate the fact that the surveilance video shows Zimmerman as a solid guy, and that Martin was 6-2 150-160 pounds, clearly showing him to be quite skinny. The most common current picture of Z still shows him to hold some weight http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/05/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?iid=article_sidebar, and his new mugshot photo is likely the result of stress induced weight loss according to his camp. It is still highly disingenuous to describe Martin as the bigger man. You make it worse by showing that... odd picture. I seriously doubt either of those individuals were 6-2 160 and 17 years old.

Actually I would say they are about equal. The debate between more weight or more height is common in self defense circles and guess what Martin and Zimmerman are about even. Zimmerman is a little bigger around and Martin is a little taller. The reason I showed that picture is because one guy is a few inches taller and the other is bigger around. So which one is bigger to you?

Had Zimmerman not watched and followed Trayvon (likely even before he called the police) none of this would have happened.

And if Martin had not swung (assuming he did) then this would have turned into the 99% of other cases. You may not want to believe this but neighborhood watch groups are relatively common and Zimmerman's actions are not that unusual. We tell them not to do it but they do it anyway because there has never been a problem before (or at least before now). In other words if not for the shooting this would have been a fairly typical case (even including Zimmerman's actions).

That is why the fact that he committed no crime is important. You cannot say this is trayvon's fault for swinging first (which is not supported by any facts) when he would not have been in this situation if he was not followed.

Martin swinging first is far more likely than Zimmerman swinging first.

He would not have been in this situation if he had just gone home. This is the difference between you and me. I am not in the pro-Zimmerman camp because I think they are both idiots and they both royally screwed up. You are in the pro-Martin camp and you want to believe in him. Martin fucked up and he played a huge part in his own death. You may not want to believe it but Zimmerman (given known evidence) is no more to blame for this incident than Martin.

The distance and speed is not important. What is clear is that Martin made the point to deescalate the situation and Zimmerman escalated by leaving his car.

And Martin escalated it again by coming back and talking to him. The photo you linked showed clearly that Martin had somewhere to go so just running would have done the job. Instead he either stopped or he completely turned around (likely the latter).

Again we do not know who threw the first punch, but it is obvious that nothing happens if Z doesnt leave his car.

Hind sight is 20/20. 99% of the time nothing would have happened. If Martin had just kept going he would have been fine. His decision to stop and talk to Zimmerman lead to the confrontation.

Furthermore there is definite reasoning to believe that Z would initiate the altercation. He had already shown over-zealousness when he left his car.

The common human response to someone running away from you is to chase them. That is built into the human psyche (and it is something we train people against).

He expressed clear frustration and resentment about the situation toward the police while on the phone

A clear resentment that he might get away. That has nothing to do with starting a fight. In fact since Martin was in sight his frustration should have been alleviated.

he knew going forth that he was carrying a gun so he felt protected

Which has nothing to do with a fist fight.

All of this is far more plausible than a 17 year old kid sneak attacking someone he had just ran from.

Actually it far more likely that a 17 year old kid would get pissed off and say "fuck this" and circle back. Many studies have been done that show that people reaction to a person in a car or on a horse is different from a person on the ground. There is a reason that some noblemen of old Europe banned peasants from riding horses. A car gives a person a persona of anonymity and power. That increases fear. By leaving your car you decrease that persona and turn yourself into just another man. That is why standard self defense doctrine include remaining in your car if at all possible. Zimmerman made himself less of a threat in Martins eyes and more of an intruder that must be dealt with. The study of the human psyche is one of the most important parts of self defense.

However, even if that was the case, it would be his right under the stand your ground laws.

NO IT IS NOT. I am tired of saying this. MARTIN WOULD NOT HAVE ANY REASON TO ATTACK ZIMMERMAN FIRST. SIMPLY FOLLOWING SOMEONE IS NOT GROUNDS FOR THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE.

My last point is that having proven Zimmerman's story(s) implausible, and showing through his own words and voice that he escalated this confrontation (by leaving his car to follow) how viable can a self defense claim be?

You haven't. You have mixed conjecture with bias and produced nothing in turn.

however i find it hard to believe that charges would be pressed (of such severity) if there was no case here.

I would. Probably hoping for a plea deal from Zimmerman. Or maybe the prosecutor is just overzealous. Many a case has been lost that way.

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