I will take one last shot at this, and sorry im not going to break this down into quote pieces, and its probably going to be long. If you dont read the whole thing simply let me know and we can end this here.
I will read the whole thing (you took the time to write it so I should read it) but for future reference if you are not going to be directly quoting what I say you should snip it especially when the posts are as long as my last one.
If he was on the phone, how exactly was he able to sneak up on Zimmerman when exactly could he sneak up on Zimmerman if he was busy carrying on a conversation?
It is called not talking. I do not know how you talk on the phone but I refuse to even attempt to multitask. I do ONE thing at a time.
Zimmerman says he was walking back to his car when he was attacked but the body was found no where near the car.
Nowhere near is relative. According to the 911 tape he followed Martin a distance, (his statement) turned around, and went back. In other words he might not be next to his car but still near it.
Zimmerman says he feared for his life because his head was being slammed on the concrete, but the body was found in grass.
Because there was grass and concrete.
For Zimmermans story to be plausible, he would had to have shot Martin from a lying down prone position with Martin on top. Martin would have had to have stood up walked to the grass and then fallen with his arms under him. For what seemed to be an instantly fatal gun shot wound, unless you think action movie deaths are realistic, this sounds very specious.
The BACK of Zimmerman's head was supposedly hit on the ground and (according to the statement) Martin directly broke his nose. In other words Zimmerman was on his back.
Second, mull this around a bit, Martin falls over to one side of Zimmerman and tries to crawl away but dies as he is doing it.
BTW gunshot wounds are rarely instantly fatal. In the vast majority of cases if the victim receives medical attention within the first few minutes they will live. Martin did not receive any attention until the police arrived some time later. In other words he could have been alive and moving but bleeding to death in the mean time.
Those are three significantly contradictory facts that do not meld well with Zimmerman's story. Please if you can provide solid explanation to reconcile them with Zimmerman's specious accounts of the nights events do so, otherwise for the sake of intellectual honesty, refrain from continuing with that particular line of argument.
The problem you have is that this is alien to you. You need to stop trying to tell me how it is when you do not understand it yourself.
The tape shows little sign of struggle outside of a possible cut on the back of his head.
It was commented that his nose looked swollen.
It is true he was treated at the scene, but there is no blood on his shirt which would have been consistent with a situation where a guy shot another guy who was on top of him from a prone position.
Depends on where he was shot and the initial bleeding and many other factors. If he was dehydrated, that combined with the thickness of the hoodie could have kept the blood off Zimmerman until he moved. What's more Zimmerman may have had his jacket zipped up and blood would not have shown up well on that jacket.
Furthermore police were not wearing gloves which would have been standard procedure when dealing with a bloody victim. His face hardly looks as if it has a scratch on it, but admittedly the tape is not of perfect quality. Sadly the tape does not clearly vindicate either story, but it does more to hurt Zimmerman than help him. Considering the suppostion of his family, you would have expected a bruised and swollen face, blood on his shirt from a broken nose or from Trayvon, something more to insinuate that he had been in a life or death struggle less than 45 minutes ago.
Ever had your head beaten into the concrete? It doesn't matter if his life was fleeing away in that second because every second he did not act he was losing mental and physical abilities that would have prevented any rational action further down the line.
Maybe his defense lawyers will have something to completely support his statement, maybe ballistics will completely eviscerate his story (my theory) but either way his story about being jumped and attacked by his car AFTER the kid ran away from him just sounds ludacris at this stage.
Considering the kid did not have the intelligence to get help but instead (even by the girlfriends statement) confronted Zimmerman I do not see it out of the realm of possibility.
One thing these kids are definitely not is brave.
No, but they can be extremely stupid.
The idea that he would double back to start a fight after getting away does not sound like any type of logical behavior for a teenager of any ilk.
Mindset changes and adjusts with the territory. That is one of the things I have to teach my students.
(did he even have a choice to deescalate?)
According to the girlfriend and Zimmerman, he did. Those are the two stories we have and they are coming from different sides.
the bottom line is you cannot expect kids to use adult logic, especially under pressure.
It is not adult logic to seek help when attacked. That is something that is drilled into kids from a young age and it stays with older people.
Who do you think should have the highest burden of right minded level headed thinking and responsibility in this case, The 17 year old kid who was literaly minding his own business, or the 28 year old adult with a gun? You are a teacher.
Considering that Martin was apparently running he had the right idea he just did not follow up on it.
If you fought a kid in your school, unless it was [b]aundantly[\b] clear that you were simpy defending yourself, would you not lose you job?
Only if I lost. I teach hand to hand combat, self defense techniques, survival skills, and firearm usage at a friend's self defense school. I also am a RSO (Range Safety Officer) and have taught for ROTC units, the BSA, 4-H, and on
Is it not wreckless to follow a "suspicious" person in the middle of the night while carryin a weapon?
I am not sure how carrying a firearm is relevant but yes to the other part.
Is it not wreckless to leave the safety of a vehicle in this situation?
Is it not wreckless to go against dispatcher advice to stand down and wait for police?
According to Zimmerman he did. He chased Martin a little ways and when the dispatcher told him to back off he said he did. If he did not then yes he was reckless but do you have any proof that he did not?
Zimmerman has to prove that he was attacked unprovoked, and feared for his life because he is the killer on trial.
You were alright up until the second part. Sorry but it is innocent until proven guilty not the other way around AND he was not on trial until probable cause could be established.
Again, please provide adequate evidence outside of Zimmerman's story and further supposition or right wing blogs to support that idea. The only thing that is supported by any evidence is that an altercation did occur and that Zimmerman was getting the worst of it when he shot Trayvon. We don't know who started it. Please feel free to provide a story that actually fits with the facts to support this theory.
First of all right-wing blogs? Supposition much?
Anyway the girlfriend said that Martin talked to Zimmerman first. I see nothing in the conversation that she described that would implicate Zimmerman. In fact that best we've got is that Martin said something that could imply he was pissed and was going to fight.
[/quote]Your link about height and weight uses the video supposition of a "friend", not any facts to make the point that Zimmerman was 5'9 170. A friend that hardly was able to hold the moniker of "friend" under pressure. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm46SA6lsWQ Feel free to look up that entire interview btw, there is a reason we havent heard from Oliver in a few weeks. [/quote]
Yeah and the friend backs up the picture that shows he lost weight. Look at the police picture and compare it to the newer picture. See the difference?
This AGAIN shows if not your bias, than an inability construct a solid honest argument without obvious flaws.
You used a weight from 6 YEARS ago that is not shown by the recent picture of him. Who is biased again?
The police report holds much more weight than a "friends" description.
Once again the police report was from 6 years prior to that. Are you the same weight that you were 6 years ago? Then consider the fact that this guy apparently wanted to get in shape and did so.
Also, the videos of Zimmerman do not depict a man who is 5'9 170. He is clearly of a solid stocky build.
So is this guy- http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/tyler-dropped-the-weight-built-carved-physique.html
Comparing him to a kid who from all accounts between 6 ft and 6-2 150-160 pounds would clearly depict Zimmerman as the "larger" individual.
A little pudgier around the middle does not equal larger by any means. Who is the bigger guy in this picture-
The fact that you would seriously throw that point out there multiple times greatly throws into question your bias in this case. It seems like you are more focused on proving me wrong than actaully seeking the truth.
You know I was about to say the same thing about you.
In my mind there is no reason an unarmed person should end up dead and the killer should go free unless there is clear evidence of self defense or the person was in the middle of a crime.
You know there is this little called the 4th Amendment that requires there to be probable cause before a warrant or arrest be made. There is no proof Zimmerman was an imminent danger to community therefore the police taking some time to go over the evidence before arresting him is only prudent. In fact that is how all cases work. You don't like it, move somewhere else (although aside from 3rd World dictatorships you will have a short list).
BTW Zimmerman was arrested after the shooting he was just let go until they could build a case.
We know that Martin commited no crime
Unless Zimmerman is telling the truth in which case Martin assaulted him for no reason. You call me bias but you refuse to admit that possibility.
and the clearness of self defense is quickly dismantled by the fact that Martin ran away from Zimmerman who was following him.
If Martin really ran away then why was Zimmerman anywhere near him? Martins girlfriend did not report him being out of breath or constantly running. Apparently he ran but not far.
The fact that you and a few others keep using Zimmerman's story
Wow, using one of the only stories we have available as evidence. That is unprecedented (sarcasm).
claims about trayvon's character
And when did I do that?
And when did I do that?
statements from "friends"
Because that is probably more true than a 6 year old report. You got anything better?
and then claim that "90%" of the story if fabricated by the media
Would you mind telling me your name please? I want to make sure that if I ever get someone to write my biography that you are not it because you just make up the stuff I say.
Please if you respond, do no respond to my words, simply respond with some evidence that shows that Zimmerman should not have been charged with a crime that night.
It is called the 4th Amendment. Know your rights.
That Zimmerman had good reason to follow Trayvon validating him escalating the altercation
According the Zimmerman he stopped following Martin and the girlfriend stated that Martin initiated the conversation. Do you have proof otherwise?
That Trayvon was clearly the aggressor when the situation became physical
There does not seem to be any reason for Zimmerman to initiate the confrontation. The girlfriends statement does not back up the idea.
That Zimmerman made attempts to defuse the situation at any time.
Kind of hard to do if he was on the ground and unable to get up (which he say happened).
That Zimmerman reasonably feared for his life.
Getting your head smashed into the concrete is deadly.
And dont use Zimmerman's supposition as evidence it does not hold up to the stardard of plausability nor is it corroborated by a third unbiased party.
You have yet to prove that Zimmermans account is implausible. You say it is but you do not provide any proof. The only evidence we have is Zimmermans word, the girlfriends statement, and the statements by various third parties that include Zimmerman being on the ground, a third person being on the ground, and Martin being on the ground. Also we have the police report which says that Zimmerman was injured and had grass on his back.
I surmise you will have a hard time doing any of this, which is why i dont understand how you can refer to yourself as unbiased.
I wonder if you can actually prove anything you say. You say you have proof but what is it? What, is your spidey sense tingling? Sorry, but that does not fly. Zimmermans story combined with the girlfriends statement combined with the various other evidence says that Zimmerman probably did act in some form of self defense. Do you have any proof whatsoever to disprove that?
By Zimmerman's own words he followed Trayvon becuase he "looked suspicious" even after being cautioned not to.
So I cannot use Zimmermans statement but YOU can? Hypocrisy much?
Second according to his statement he stopped following Martin after being told to do so. Stop accusing me of bias if you cannot even keep the story straight.
No eye witness accounts availabe clearly identify who started the fight.
Except through implication as I stated.
The only person who seemed to try to difuse the situation is Trayvon as he initially ran when Zimmerman followed him.
But then he came back and initiated the conversation with Zimmerman (according to the girlfriend). In addition if it was Zimmerman screaming for help (which he said it was) then he was trying to get help and end the fight before he drew.
There is no evidence outside of Zimmerman's camp that provides any support that Zimmerman suffered a "viscious beating" that would possibly evoke his right to use deadly force.
Except the police report stating it and the fact that he was seen by the EMTs.
But you cannot claim that people who are "pro martin" are biased emotional fools for being able to follow the evidence provided and support the idea of arresting Zimmerman. Feel free to prove me wrong.
I do not hold that all of "Martin's supporters" are biased but you certainly are.
Unless you have some actual proof please do not talk to me again. I do not want to waste my time when you have already made up your mind.