So, Trayvon Martin. (Updated 9/10: From the duh and oops departments)

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Bassik:

Lil devils x:
From what the witness reports have stated, the screaming for help was done by Zimmerman, or as they stated, the man in the red, who was on bottom being beaten up by Martin, the man on top, in gray. So it would appear the screams in the video were that of Zimmerman, not Martin. However, Zimmerman followed Martin against the directions of the police, and it could be reasonable to believe that Martin was acting in fear of his own life, and attacked Zimmerman in self defense. Zimmerman is in the wrong, because he followed Martin in the first place and started the confrontation.

Man screams for his life, fearing for his life, then shoots a guy.
Makes sense!
You know... if your brain don't work very well.

As I noted above, Zimmerman was almost certainly carrying at the small of his back. If he was on the ground, it would have been very difficult for him to grab his gun. Thus the panic and screaming.

reonhato:

even if martin attacked zimmerman first you still have the call with martin screaming for help in the background. he is screaming for help a long period of time before the gunshot. now i dont know about you but if im kicking a guys ass i dont scream for help. zimmerman obviously had the advantage and was now in the aggressor seat, even if he did not start it. shooting someone after you have already defended yourself and are no longer in danger is outright murder.

Nikolaz72:

I've never heard of anyone screaming for help for thirty seconds while having the advantage in a fight, and if Martin attacked first and in the last thirty-seconds before the shot Zimmer had the advantage, well... Then its still murder.

Nobody saw who was screaming for help, Zimmerman claims it was himself. Anyway, despite the fact that nobody has any absolute proof of who was screaming, every person on the internet and every news organization in the country has stated that it was Martin. Not only is that irresponsible reporting, he might also be able to sue people for libel.

Regardless of whether you think the screaming in the phone tapes was Zimmerman or Martin, or whether you think Zimmerman acted in self defence or not, one thing is still abundantly clear:

Zimmerman should have been arrested as soon as police reached the scene. Regardless of whether he acted in self-defence or not, he should have been held in custody until police could ascertain what happened at the scene of the crime.

Devil's Advocacy out of the way, I'm now going to weigh in with my thoughts: Based on the evidence presented to the public so far, I'd say that at the very least Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter, and strongly suspect he's guilty of outright murder.

The fact that 911 officials told him not to follow Martin, and yet he continued to do so, is conclusive evidence that Zimmerman had his own agenda. If an office or agent of the law tells you to do something, and you act contrary to their instructions, you are then directly responsible for any damage, injury or death that then results from your actions. If Zimmerman had obeyed the instructions of the 911 official, Martin wouldn't be dead.

Zimmerman was armed, Martin unarmed. That means that Zimmerman had a huge advantage over Martin, even before the confrontation began. While it is conceivable that an unarmed man could get the better of an armed assailant who's got the jump on him, it becomes less likely when the unarmed individual is a teenager.

Following on from this, the screams on the tape are pretty damning. There are two possibilities: The screams are those of Zimmerman, or those of Martin. If it were Zimmerman screaming, however, it becomes problematic. Was he screaming because he had been overpowered by Martin, and was trying to get help before he shot him? Or was he screaming because he had apprehended Martin, and was trying to get help while holding the struggling teen... before shooting him? The former explanation, I think, is incredibly unlikely. How is it possible that Martin was able to overpower Zimmerman, despite Zimmerman still holding the gun? The screams heard on the tape cover at least a 30 second period, if not longer. Does that mean that Zimmerman was overpowered by Martin, screamed for help for a full half-minute, then pulled out the gun and shot him? If he had his gun, why didn't he use it earlier? Why did he allow himself to be overpowered for a full half-minute before using his armed superiority?

It doesn't make sense. So what about the second explanation? It's more likely, I think, that Martin used his armed advantage to try and overpower Martin, and called for help while doing so. Of course, this means that he pulled a gun out on an unarmed individual and tried to detain them despite clear instructions from 911 officials not to do so.

I think even this theory is still unlikely, however. If the screams on the tape are those of Zimmerman, why do they stop instantly after the gunshot? Perhaps more tellingly, did those really sound like the screams of a man trying to detain a youth? From where I sit, they sound like the screams of a man or boy absolutely scared for his life. If Zimmerman had been trying to call attention to the fact that he was trying to apprehend a youth, it is reasonable to expect that he would have continued to try and call attention to the fact that there was now a wounded person on the street. The fact that no more screams or calls for attention are heard after the gunshot, I think, is pretty damning evidence that they belonged to Martin.

There is so much other shady stuff going on as well. The racist language in particular is pretty damn suspicious, as are the police reports.

The facts are that a man ignored the instructions of agents of the law, and an unarmed young man died as a result. The evidence suggests that the young man was apprehended and held at gunpoint, then shot while trying to call for help. There is also evidence to suggest that Zimmerman harboured racist feelings towards black people.

In short, why the fuck isn't this guy arrested? Even if, contrary to the direction of the evidence, he's innocent, he should be held in custody until the police, or a criminal trial, can ascertain that. The fact that he has been let go is a direct slap in the face of the entire justice system. Whether he's innocent or guilty isn't the issue here. The issue is that he's not even being held under arrest until the facts of the case are fucking well made clear! Even though there is damning evidence to suggest that a crime of some sort happened, ranging between manslaughter and outright murder, this man has been allowed to walk free because of some bullshit cowboy laws that allow people to act like they're John fucking Wayne.

Captcha: no dice

Damn right! No fucking dice indeed!

cthulhuspawn82:

reonhato:

even if martin attacked zimmerman first you still have the call with martin screaming for help in the background. he is screaming for help a long period of time before the gunshot. now i dont know about you but if im kicking a guys ass i dont scream for help. zimmerman obviously had the advantage and was now in the aggressor seat, even if he did not start it. shooting someone after you have already defended yourself and are no longer in danger is outright murder.

Nikolaz72:

I've never heard of anyone screaming for help for thirty seconds while having the advantage in a fight, and if Martin attacked first and in the last thirty-seconds before the shot Zimmer had the advantage, well... Then its still murder.

Nobody saw who was screaming for help, Zimmerman claims it was himself. Anyway, despite the fact that nobody has any absolute proof of who was screaming, every person on the internet and every news organization in the country has stated that it was Martin. Not only is that irresponsible reporting, he might also be able to sue people for libel.

According to witness statements the man in red on bottom was screaming, that would be Zimmerman. The man in gray on top was Martin. There were witnesses. Martins mother claimed that was Martin, but the witnesses tell a different story.

Blablahb:

Whatever the case, Martin will have felt threatened by a grown man coming after him, and considering said murderer's history as a crazed vigilante, there's no way you're telling me he was all calm and stuff. I'd probably have put him on ground if he approached me.

Blablahb:
Okay, so an angry guy twice your size is running after you in the dark screaming, waving a gun, then chasing you in a car, then blocks you off and charges at you again.

No accounts or evidence that Zimmerman was "Charging, screaming, or waving his gun that he would normally keep concealed. But you seem to think that is exactly how it went down.

ravenshrike:

Bassik:

Lil devils x:
From what the witness reports have stated, the screaming for help was done by Zimmerman, or as they stated, the man in the red, who was on bottom being beaten up by Martin, the man on top, in gray. So it would appear the screams in the video were that of Zimmerman, not Martin. However, Zimmerman followed Martin against the directions of the police, and it could be reasonable to believe that Martin was acting in fear of his own life, and attacked Zimmerman in self defense. Zimmerman is in the wrong, because he followed Martin in the first place and started the confrontation.

Man screams for his life, fearing for his life, then shoots a guy.
Makes sense!
You know... if your brain don't work very well.

As I noted above, Zimmerman was almost certainly carrying at the small of his back. If he was on the ground, it would have been very difficult for him to grab his gun. Thus the panic and screaming.

Except that the screaming stops exactly after the gunshot. Meaning that Zimmerman would have been screaming for help while he was pulling his gun out and aiming it at Martin, and would only have stopped screaming the instant after he pulled the trigger.

If he did pull the gun out on Martin from behind his back, he didn't make any attempt to talk the boy down, reason with him, or just generally intimidate him into letting off. In the vast majority of cases, pulling a gun is enough make any assailant stop what they're doing and realise that the position of power has changed. According to your version of events, Martin made no effort to make use of his armed advantage, and simply decided to scream his lungs out for help until shooting Martin, after which he stopped screaming entirely.

The alternative is that it was Martin who was the one screaming for help, on account of being jumped by an armed assailant, and the screams stopped after the shot because Martin was now dead.

Either way, Zimmerman should have been held on suspicion. Being allowed to walk free makes a joke of the entire judicial system.

Lil devils x:
snipped

There are conflicting testimony of who was on top of who

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-20/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting_1_martin-family-cell-phone-benjamin-crump?_s=PM:JUSTICE

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin

The wiki article is pretty complete and also states that witnesses thought it was treyvon screaming, not exactly expert testimony but that'll be released in a couple days. I look at this 28 year old guy's picture and my first thought it's a little on the laughable side that he would be able to pull off a high pitched squeal like that. Treyvon just coming out of puberty it's perfectly possible. Maybe zimmerman has a higher pitched voice then a normal man his size and age, not even considering if he smokes or not, but I don't see that as likely.

Overall it's mostly assumptions until that recording gets analyzed and all people involved are re-interviewed.

j-e-f-f-e-r-s:

Except that the screaming stops exactly after the gunshot. Meaning that Zimmerman would have been screaming for help while he was pulling his gun out and aiming it at Martin, and would only have stopped screaming the instant after he pulled the trigger.

It makes you wonder, the screaming immediately stops after gunshot and there is only one gunshot, do you only pull a trigger once when your screaming for your life? I'd think not.

I'm almost positive this would have been open and shut if the cops where willing to investigate this as a homicide.

dmase:

Lil devils x:
snipped

There are conflicting testimony of who was on top of who

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-20/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting_1_martin-family-cell-phone-benjamin-crump?_s=PM:JUSTICE

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin

The wiki article is pretty complete and also states that witnesses thought it was treyvon screaming, not exactly expert testimony but that'll be released in a couple days. I look at this 28 year old guy's picture and my first thought it's a little on the laughable side that he would be able to pull off a high pitched squeal like that. Treyvon just coming out of puberty it's perfectly possible. Maybe zimmerman has a higher pitched voice then a normal man his size and age, not even considering if he smokes or not, but I don't see that as likely.

Overall it's mostly assumptions until that recording gets analyzed and all people involved are re-interviewed.

Actually, from my time spent in the ER, that sound coming from Zimmerman would be spot on for what I would assume a man like him would sound. Having to have reset bones without anesthesia, you get to hear quite a bit of that. Men of his age and size do not always sound like what the typical movie would portray.

I only viewed the actual police reports and statements taken, not sure what else the wiki article can add to that. According to the wiki:

"A witness to the physical altercation just prior to the shooting stated that Martin was on top of Zimmerman and beating him up, while Zimmerman yelled for help.[13] One witness said he came upon the scene and saw Zimmerman on his back on the ground, which accords with statements by the police that he was covered in grass and blood. Another witness has said in a TV interview that "there was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling", but police say that that witness gave an official account to them that agreed with Zimmerman's story."

"reinterviewed" is usally the wrong account of what happened. The best time for accuracy, is at the time of the event, before time and events have allowed for your memory to become distorted.

dmase:

The shirt and wounds are considered evidence correct? Evidence for zimmerman's defense, the prosecution will undermine this evidence if it their belief that it isn't substantial or accurate to the situation. If the defense gives your account as what happen then the prosecution will also play the guessing game because what the defense says isn't fact until proven.

The evidence probably won't make it to a trial by jury. The prosecution would block the use of the evidence, they would then have to prove to a judge(and the judge only) that the "evidence" which amounts to a cops testimony is admissible in court. I've already listed a couple reasons why it probably wouldn't be.

If Zimmerman claims he was knocked on his back and pummeled, I don't see how wounds and a shirt with wet grass on the back can be outright dismissed.

Either way, the defense is under no obligation to prove anything. The prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the act was murder. Good luck proving the exact circumstances of an event that nobody saw based on on a couple short 911 calls.

To the people wondering why Zimmerman wasn't arrested at the scene. The reason Zimmerman wasn't arrested for the duration of the investigation was probably because cops didn't see him as a flight risk, and it turns out they were right, he is still sitting right where they can find him. You don't need to put the cuffs on somebody unless you think they are criminals who are going to attempt to flee justice. That's why they don't cuff the rich guy who embezzled money until the investigation is over, they don't think he is going to be climbing the fence into Mexico in his $2000 suit.

Lil devils x:

dmase:

Lil devils x:
snipped

There are conflicting testimony of who was on top of who

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-20/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting_1_martin-family-cell-phone-benjamin-crump?_s=PM:JUSTICE

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin

The wiki article is pretty complete and also states that witnesses thought it was treyvon screaming, not exactly expert testimony but that'll be released in a couple days. I look at this 28 year old guy's picture and my first thought it's a little on the laughable side that he would be able to pull off a high pitched squeal like that. Treyvon just coming out of puberty it's perfectly possible. Maybe zimmerman has a higher pitched voice then a normal man his size and age, not even considering if he smokes or not, but I don't see that as likely.

Overall it's mostly assumptions until that recording gets analyzed and all people involved are re-interviewed.

Actually, from my time spent in the ER, that sound coming from Zimmerman would be spot on for what I would assume a man like him would sound. Having to have reset bones without anesthesia, you get to hear quite a bit of that. Men of his age and size do not always sound what the typical movie would portray.

I only viewed the actual police reports and statements taken, not sure what else the wiki article can add to that. According to the wiki:

"A witness to the physical altercation just prior to the shooting stated that Martin was on top of Zimmerman and beating him up, while Zimmerman yelled for help.[13] One witness said he came upon the scene and saw Zimmerman on his back on the ground, which accords with statements by the police that he was covered in grass and blood. Another witness has said in a TV interview that "there was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling", but police say that that witness gave an official account to them that agreed with Zimmerman's story."

Then read the wiki articles because it gives more than that witness account, check the post shooting section.

Try blowing through the tube leftover from wrapping paper and making it sound like flute. It's not physically possible. Vocal folds vary based on weight, height, hormones, muscles and how they are used. There is a big difference in screaming in agony and screaming for help, it's not a shriek or quick vibration of pain it's a continuous flow at varying frequencies.

People can adequately differentiate most of the time between a woman's and man's scream they are vary different. Working in the ER I doubt you'd have an accurate memory of exact pitch or sound, men's voices that size don't get that high pitched unless they're vocal folds are different from the average person of their size and age. So you have to be "abnormal" in order to accomplish this.

dmase:

Lil devils x:

dmase:

There are conflicting testimony of who was on top of who

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-20/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting_1_martin-family-cell-phone-benjamin-crump?_s=PM:JUSTICE

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin

The wiki article is pretty complete and also states that witnesses thought it was treyvon screaming, not exactly expert testimony but that'll be released in a couple days. I look at this 28 year old guy's picture and my first thought it's a little on the laughable side that he would be able to pull off a high pitched squeal like that. Treyvon just coming out of puberty it's perfectly possible. Maybe zimmerman has a higher pitched voice then a normal man his size and age, not even considering if he smokes or not, but I don't see that as likely.

Overall it's mostly assumptions until that recording gets analyzed and all people involved are re-interviewed.

Actually, from my time spent in the ER, that sound coming from Zimmerman would be spot on for what I would assume a man like him would sound. Having to have reset bones without anesthesia, you get to hear quite a bit of that. Men of his age and size do not always sound what the typical movie would portray.

I only viewed the actual police reports and statements taken, not sure what else the wiki article can add to that. According to the wiki:

"A witness to the physical altercation just prior to the shooting stated that Martin was on top of Zimmerman and beating him up, while Zimmerman yelled for help.[13] One witness said he came upon the scene and saw Zimmerman on his back on the ground, which accords with statements by the police that he was covered in grass and blood. Another witness has said in a TV interview that "there was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling", but police say that that witness gave an official account to them that agreed with Zimmerman's story."

Then read the wiki articles because it gives more than that witness account, check the post shooting section.

Try blowing through the tube leftover from wrapping paper and making it sound like flute. It's not physically possible. Vocal folds vary based on weight, height, hormones, muscles and how they are used. There is a big difference in screaming in agony and screaming for help, it's not a shriek or quick vibration of pain it's a continuous flow at varying frequencies.

People can adequately differentiate most of the time between a woman's and man's scream they are vary different. Working in the ER I doubt you'd have an accurate memory of exact pitch or sound, men's voices that size don't get that high pitched unless they're vocal folds are different from the average person of their size and age. So you have to be "abnormal" in order to accomplish this.

First, the man is Latino, we have many Latinos come through the ER in Parkland. They typically have a higher pitched scream than white males. Go to your local busy public hospital over the weekend and spend some time in the trauma center. Then look at who is making those sounds and get back with me. That is far from abnormal.

cthulhuspawn82:

dmase:

The shirt and wounds are considered evidence correct? Evidence for zimmerman's defense, the prosecution will undermine this evidence if it their belief that it isn't substantial or accurate to the situation. If the defense gives your account as what happen then the prosecution will also play the guessing game because what the defense says isn't fact until proven.

The evidence probably won't make it to a trial by jury. The prosecution would block the use of the evidence, they would then have to prove to a judge(and the judge only) that the "evidence" which amounts to a cops testimony is admissible in court. I've already listed a couple reasons why it probably wouldn't be.

If Zimmerman claims he was knocked on his back and pummeled, I don't see how wounds and a shirt with wet grass on the back can be outright dismissed.

Either way, the defense is under no obligation to prove anything. The prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the act was murder. Good luck proving the exact circumstances of an event that nobody saw based on on a couple short 911 calls.

To the people wondering why Zimmerman wasn't arrested at the scene. The reason Zimmerman wasn't arrested for the duration of the investigation was probably because cops didn't see him as a flight risk, and it turns out they were right, he is still sitting right where they can find him. You don't need to put the cuffs on somebody unless you think they are criminals who are going to attempt to flee justice. That's why they don't cuff the rich guy who embezzled money until the investigation is over, they don't think he is going to be climbing the fence into Mexico in his $2000 suit.

Did the police officer adequately check his wounds, can he judge a broken nose by sight? If so a quick trip to the doctor would detail how much trauma he sustained. An EMT's testimony would needed not a cops. The head trauma would also need to be examined. Was the victims hands bleeding or bruised, believe it or not it doesn't take much force to leave a couple hair line fractures in the hand. All of this evidence would need to evaluated, some of it still can, like a broken nose or the hands of treyvon. The head wound possibly but doubtful.

911 calls and eye witness accounts. It may be up to the prosecution to bring up the allegations but the prosecution doesn't need to bring up the injuries AT ALL, the defense will do that to DEFEND their client. It's not like defense lawyers just sit around waiting to refute the prosecution.

....go out and kill a man put the gun down and stay at the scene and say don't worry I plan to go to trial. Tell me if they arrest you.... I'll wait.

cthulhuspawn82:

Blablahb:

Whatever the case, Martin will have felt threatened by a grown man coming after him, and considering said murderer's history as a crazed vigilante, there's no way you're telling me he was all calm and stuff. I'd probably have put him on ground if he approached me.

Blablahb:
Okay, so an angry guy twice your size is running after you in the dark screaming, waving a gun, then chasing you in a car, then blocks you off and charges at you again.

No accounts or evidence that Zimmerman was "Charging, screaming, or waving his gun that he would normally keep concealed. But you seem to think that is exactly how it went down.

You'll have to forgive Blablahb. This seems to be his view on people who carry/own guns.

OT: I'm still trying to find the case. I think it was fifth or seventh circuit, that said you can't put yourself in danger and claim self-defense as an easy-out. A man who provokes an endangered species can't claim self preservation when he has to shoot it.

Lil devils x:

First, the man is Latino, we have many Latinos come through the ER in Parkland. They typically have a higher pitched scream than white males. Go to your local busy public hospital over the weekend and spend some time in the trauma center. Then look at who is making those sounds and get back with me.

I don't think you understand the concepts surrounding human physiology. Pin A doesn't just go into slot B, everything is governed by principles of physics like a table can only hold so much weight and a pipe can only move so much fluid.

Also i've been around a few hispanics in my day and a lot of them have deeper voices. I figured I'd add that while we're including personal experiences. One thing you might notice if you go to spain they would also have higher pitched voices, but not in reality. The common thread should be obvious, it's the language. Spanish is spoken in higher pitched tones, I can't say that as fact but it makes sense.

Also zimmerman his half peruvian, raised in America, I'm willing to bet his accent is almost non existent and his first language was english.

cthulhuspawn82:

reonhato:

even if martin attacked zimmerman first you still have the call with martin screaming for help in the background. he is screaming for help a long period of time before the gunshot. now i dont know about you but if im kicking a guys ass i dont scream for help. zimmerman obviously had the advantage and was now in the aggressor seat, even if he did not start it. shooting someone after you have already defended yourself and are no longer in danger is outright murder.

Nikolaz72:

I've never heard of anyone screaming for help for thirty seconds while having the advantage in a fight, and if Martin attacked first and in the last thirty-seconds before the shot Zimmer had the advantage, well... Then its still murder.

Nobody saw who was screaming for help, Zimmerman claims it was himself. Anyway, despite the fact that nobody has any absolute proof of who was screaming, every person on the internet and every news organization in the country has stated that it was Martin. Not only is that irresponsible reporting, he might also be able to sue people for libel.

If you listened to the tapes you would see (hear) that it is not, a 40+yo man screaming. It is clearly a teenager, probably one with a bit of an accent aswell. Most people with capable hearing can recognize that (Although I dont know if there is anything wrong with yours, if there is. Forgive me) And I believe the news can aswell. The Police have modified reports to feature details that was not there originally to cover their own arse for not arresting him initially (He probably has friends in the force locally) his a vigilantee, made a racial slur while calling 911. Defied the request that he does not follow in pursuit. (either gets attacked, or attacks a teenager) Teenager, at some point in the struggle screams for help. And is then shot. We know that this guy is unarmed, we know the vigilantee has 100 pounds on him and has a gun. And drove after him in a car. Im sorry but if anyone gets the benefit of the doubt its not the guy who has clearly been lying out of his teeth.

And as already stated (Even if the 17yo boy attacked him), US law clearly says that you cant pursue someone suspected dangerous and then plead self-defence when they attack you. So nomatter what this guy does his going in for murder, all that is up for discussion is the degree.

dmase:

Lil devils x:

First, the man is Latino, we have many Latinos come through the ER in Parkland. They typically have a higher pitched scream than white males. Go to your local busy public hospital over the weekend and spend some time in the trauma center. Then look at who is making those sounds and get back with me.

I don't think you understand the concepts surrounding human physiology. Pin A doesn't just go into slot B, everything is governed by principles of physics like a table can only hold so much weight and a pipe can only move so much fluid.

Also i've been around a few hispanics in my day and a lot of them have deeper voices. I figured I'd add that while we're including personal experiences. One thing you might notice if you go to spain they would also have higher pitched voices, but not in reality. The common thread should be obvious, it's the language. Spanish is spoken in higher pitched tones, I can't say that as fact but it makes sense.

Also zimmerman his half peruvian, raised in America, I'm willing to bet his accent is almost non existent and his first language was english.

The sound they make when they are speaking sounds nothing like the sounds they make when they are wailing in pain. Yelling in anger sounds nothing like the sounds they make wailing in pain. The pain sounds are usually much higher, when screaming for help out waling in pain, people generally sound more like a wounded animal than a recognizable voice.

He is a heavy man, on his back, probably hit the ground pretty hard. The more weight he has, the more it hurts when he hit the ground. He was wailing in pain.

Lil devils x:

dmase:

Lil devils x:

First, the man is Latino, we have many Latinos come through the ER in Parkland. They typically have a higher pitched scream than white males. Go to your local busy public hospital over the weekend and spend some time in the trauma center. Then look at who is making those sounds and get back with me.

I don't think you understand the concepts surrounding human physiology. Pin A doesn't just go into slot B, everything is governed by principles of physics like a table can only hold so much weight and a pipe can only move so much fluid.

Also i've been around a few hispanics in my day and a lot of them have deeper voices. I figured I'd add that while we're including personal experiences. One thing you might notice if you go to spain they would also have higher pitched voices, but not in reality. The common thread should be obvious, it's the language. Spanish is spoken in higher pitched tones, I can't say that as fact but it makes sense.

Also zimmerman his half peruvian, raised in America, I'm willing to bet his accent is almost non existent and his first language was english.

The sound they make when they are speaking sounds nothing like the sounds they make when they are wailing in pain. Yelling in anger sounds nothing like the sounds they make wailing in pain. The pain sounds are usually much higher, when screaming for help out waling in pain, people generally sound more like a wounded animal than a recognizable voice.

Yet some fucking how we are able to tell the difference when they are screaming in agony. If what your saying is true they wouldn't even bother analyzing the screams.

And like I said already it's not physically possible for a guy his size to make a sound like that under normal conditions. I also said that sustained pleas for mercy aren't shrieks of pain. He would have to maintain a high pitched squeal and cry the entire time going completely against his normal physiology. So if it was physically possible for him to make a shrill scream like that could he maintain for the amount of time in the 911 video? Keep adding impossibilities to it thats all thats going on.

Nikolaz72:

cthulhuspawn82:

reonhato:

even if martin attacked zimmerman first you still have the call with martin screaming for help in the background. he is screaming for help a long period of time before the gunshot. now i dont know about you but if im kicking a guys ass i dont scream for help. zimmerman obviously had the advantage and was now in the aggressor seat, even if he did not start it. shooting someone after you have already defended yourself and are no longer in danger is outright murder.

Nikolaz72:

I've never heard of anyone screaming for help for thirty seconds while having the advantage in a fight, and if Martin attacked first and in the last thirty-seconds before the shot Zimmer had the advantage, well... Then its still murder.

Nobody saw who was screaming for help, Zimmerman claims it was himself. Anyway, despite the fact that nobody has any absolute proof of who was screaming, every person on the internet and every news organization in the country has stated that it was Martin. Not only is that irresponsible reporting, he might also be able to sue people for libel.

If you listened to the tapes you would see (hear) that it is not, a 40+yo man screaming. It is clearly a teenager, probably one with a bit of an accent aswell. Most people with capable hearing can recognize that (Although I dont know if there is anything wrong with yours, if there is. Forgive me) And I believe the news can aswell. The Police have modified reports to feature details that was not there originally to cover their own arse for not arresting him initially (He probably has friends in the force locally) his a vigilantee, made a racial slur while calling 911. Defied the request that he does not follow in pursuit. (either gets attacked, or attacks a teenager) Teenager, at some point in the struggle screams for help. And is then shot. We know that this guy is unarmed, we know the vigilantee has 100 pounds on him and has a gun. And drove after him in a car. Im sorry but if anyone gets the benefit of the doubt its not the guy who has clearly been lying out of his teeth.

And as already stated (Even if the 17yo boy attacked him), US law clearly says that you cant pursue someone suspected dangerous and then plead self-defence when they attack you. So nomatter what this guy does his going in for murder, all that is up for discussion is the degree.

If you view the witness statements, the witnesses claim it was zimmeran in red screaming on his back with Martin in gray on top. Zimmerman was bleeding and a grassy wet back of shirt. The wailing in the video sounds very likely to be a Latino man in his 20's. George Zimmerman is a Latino man, age 28.

Lil devils x:

dmase:

Lil devils x:

First, the man is Latino, we have many Latinos come through the ER in Parkland. They typically have a higher pitched scream than white males. Go to your local busy public hospital over the weekend and spend some time in the trauma center. Then look at who is making those sounds and get back with me.

I don't think you understand the concepts surrounding human physiology. Pin A doesn't just go into slot B, everything is governed by principles of physics like a table can only hold so much weight and a pipe can only move so much fluid.

Also i've been around a few hispanics in my day and a lot of them have deeper voices. I figured I'd add that while we're including personal experiences. One thing you might notice if you go to spain they would also have higher pitched voices, but not in reality. The common thread should be obvious, it's the language. Spanish is spoken in higher pitched tones, I can't say that as fact but it makes sense.

Also zimmerman his half peruvian, raised in America, I'm willing to bet his accent is almost non existent and his first language was english.

The sound they make when they are speaking sounds nothing like the sounds they make when they are wailing in pain. Yelling in anger sounds nothing like the sounds they make wailing in pain. The pain sounds are usually much higher, when screaming for help out waling in pain, people generally sound more like a wounded animal than a recognizable voice.

Clearly dmase has beaten the shit out of enough people to know what various screams sound like. That's the only explanation for his certainty.

In any case it'll be interesting to see the autopsy report when it eventually comes out and how much bruising and skin damage is present on Martin. That's what'll make or break the case for the defense in the end. If he has minor injuries except on his fists and the gunshot it'll be a pretty clear backing of Zimmerman's position.

ravenshrike:

Lil devils x:

dmase:

I don't think you understand the concepts surrounding human physiology. Pin A doesn't just go into slot B, everything is governed by principles of physics like a table can only hold so much weight and a pipe can only move so much fluid.

Also i've been around a few hispanics in my day and a lot of them have deeper voices. I figured I'd add that while we're including personal experiences. One thing you might notice if you go to spain they would also have higher pitched voices, but not in reality. The common thread should be obvious, it's the language. Spanish is spoken in higher pitched tones, I can't say that as fact but it makes sense.

Also zimmerman his half peruvian, raised in America, I'm willing to bet his accent is almost non existent and his first language was english.

The sound they make when they are speaking sounds nothing like the sounds they make when they are wailing in pain. Yelling in anger sounds nothing like the sounds they make wailing in pain. The pain sounds are usually much higher, when screaming for help out waling in pain, people generally sound more like a wounded animal than a recognizable voice.

Clearly dmase has beaten the shit out of enough people to know what various screams sound like. That's the only explanation for his certainty.

In any case it'll be interesting to see the autopsy report when it eventually comes out and how much bruising and skin damage is present on Martin. That's what'll make or beak the case for the defense in the end. If he has minor injuries except on his fists and the gunshot it'll be a pretty clear backing of Zimmerman's position.

Yep that was definitely the crux of my argument. So Raven your still avoiding the parts of posts you don't like? Good to hear nothings changed in the time i've been gone.

dmase:

Lil devils x:

dmase:

I don't think you understand the concepts surrounding human physiology. Pin A doesn't just go into slot B, everything is governed by principles of physics like a table can only hold so much weight and a pipe can only move so much fluid.

Also i've been around a few hispanics in my day and a lot of them have deeper voices. I figured I'd add that while we're including personal experiences. One thing you might notice if you go to spain they would also have higher pitched voices, but not in reality. The common thread should be obvious, it's the language. Spanish is spoken in higher pitched tones, I can't say that as fact but it makes sense.

Also zimmerman his half peruvian, raised in America, I'm willing to bet his accent is almost non existent and his first language was english.

The sound they make when they are speaking sounds nothing like the sounds they make when they are wailing in pain. Yelling in anger sounds nothing like the sounds they make wailing in pain. The pain sounds are usually much higher, when screaming for help out waling in pain, people generally sound more like a wounded animal than a recognizable voice.

Yet some fucking how we are able to tell the difference when they are screaming in agony. If what your saying is true they wouldn't even bother analyzing the screams.

And like I said already it's not physically possible for a guy his size to make a sound like that under normal conditions. I also said that sustained pleas for mercy aren't shrieks of pain. He would have to maintain a high pitched squeal and cry the entire time going completely against his normal physiology. So if it was physically possible for him to make a shrill scream like that could he maintain for the amount of time in the 911 video? Keep adding impossibilities to it thats all thats going on.

I actually didn't even think the sounds were that high, considering I have heard much higher on a daily basis. Of course they have to analyze the screams, as it is possible for people of all shapes and sizes to make very different sounds than would be expected.

EDIT: As for your analysis of whether or not a Latino man of his size and age would make that sound, I think it is a good thing you do not do that for a living, considering the sounds I have heard come out of many different men. Higher sounds with them screaming all night long. Often with Automoblie accidents, they have head injuries as well, which prevent using anesthesia, so they are in pain for quite some time before they are able to be sedated. Don't quit your day job.

dmase:

ravenshrike:

Lil devils x:

The sound they make when they are speaking sounds nothing like the sounds they make when they are wailing in pain. Yelling in anger sounds nothing like the sounds they make wailing in pain. The pain sounds are usually much higher, when screaming for help out waling in pain, people generally sound more like a wounded animal than a recognizable voice.

Clearly dmase has beaten the shit out of enough people to know what various screams sound like. That's the only explanation for his certainty.

In any case it'll be interesting to see the autopsy report when it eventually comes out and how much bruising and skin damage is present on Martin. That's what'll make or beak the case for the defense in the end. If he has minor injuries except on his fists and the gunshot it'll be a pretty clear backing of Zimmerman's position.

Yep that was definitely the crux of my argument. So Raven your still avoiding the parts of posts you don't like? Good to hear nothings changed in the time i've been gone.

You mean your little bit agreeing with Jeffers about how it's suspicious that the screaming stopped at the gunshot and that there was only a single gunshot? *shrugs* Not that strange when you consider it was certainly a kill shot and at this point the initial adrenaline rush had settled down. Which means an unconscious reaction of continuously squeezing the trigger was unlikely. Most confrontations involving a gun are over in under 15 seconds between attack and final trigger pull. This confrontation lasted somewhere longer than 45 seconds assuming that he started screaming for help when he hit the ground. As for the screaming stopping, given that the guy was dead and he was probably in shock that he had pulled the trigger, also not surprising.

Does anyone know where he was shot or has that not been released? I'm assuming headshot or one that hit the spine.

ravenshrike:
snipped

He was shot in the chest, found face down in the grass. Makes perfect fucking sense correct? I mean an awesome criminal scene investigator, crime enthusiast, and gun advocate must have been joking when he said headshot correct? I mean if this guy is getting pounded within an inch of his life he wouldn't have gotten the chance to shoot him in the head, with the fists flying you know ;). Figured i'd state your real argument since obviously you where yanking my chain about the kid getting shot in the head.

So your argument was this guy was being pounded within an inch of his life with this kid on top, still managing to let out a continuous scream of course. Struggling for his gun he pulls it out is within a couple inches just enough room to fit the gun in between the two and he only shoots once.

I'm pretty sure it's you that always gives that stupid excuse the one shot was a kill shot so nothing else was needed. To me that's only how you justify and execution.

Also initial adrenaline rush my ass, it doesn't work that way. Adrenaline levels don't just drop from sky high to zero. Hormones have to counteract the effects of epinephrine but the epinephrine still has to be flushed from the system.

evilneko:

It's looking pretty bad for Zimmerman when even Fox Noise won't take his side. Bottom line though is he should never have pursued Martin.

Yeah, seems kinda wei...

Edit: Oh yeah, Trayvon Martin is black. Zimmerman is hispanic.

Ooooohhh

This makes the other thread about the lunatic girl even weirder though. She's yelling at the white kids even though it's clearly the hispanics that are out to get her.

dmase:

ravenshrike:
snipped

He was shot in the chest, found face down in the grass. Makes perfect fucking sense correct? I mean an awesome criminal scene investigator, crime enthusiast, and gun advocate must have been joking when he said headshot correct?

Also initial adrenaline rush my ass, it doesn't work that way. Adrenaline levels don't just drop from sky high to zero. Hormones have to counteract the effects of epinephrine but the epinephrine still has to be flushed from the system.

I was assuming a below the chin headshot if it had been a headshot, not a between the eyes one.

As for the adrenaline rush, I never said it wore off. There are however different physiological effects at the start of an adrenaline rush and as the adrenaline rush continues. Fully unconscious reactions, such as emptying an entire mag into somebody while thinking you only pulled the trigger once, are generally confined to the start of the adrenaline rush.

LetalisK:

evilneko:

It's looking pretty bad for Zimmerman when even Fox Noise won't take his side. Bottom line though is he should never have pursued Martin.

Yeah, seems kinda wei...

Edit: Oh yeah, Trayvon Martin is black. Zimmerman is hispanic.

Ooooohhh

This makes the other thread about the lunatic girl even weirder though. She's yelling at the white kids even though it's clearly the hispanics that are out to get her.

Not sure why people think any of this is weird. Most violence is people of the same race harming each other. Other than that it is regional. In high immigration areas such as Texas and Southern California, it tends to be Latino vs Black or Black vs Latino violence, due to gangs and cartels.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jul/25/local/me-hatecrime25

ravenshrike:

dmase:

ravenshrike:
snipped

He was shot in the chest, found face down in the grass. Makes perfect fucking sense correct? I mean an awesome criminal scene investigator, crime enthusiast, and gun advocate must have been joking when he said headshot correct?

Also initial adrenaline rush my ass, it doesn't work that way. Adrenaline levels don't just drop from sky high to zero. Hormones have to counteract the effects of epinephrine but the epinephrine still has to be flushed from the system.

I was assuming a below the chin headshot if it had been a headshot, not a between the eyes one.

As for the adrenaline rush, I never said it wore off. There are however different physiological effects at the start of an adrenaline rush and as the adrenaline rush continues. Fully unconscious reactions, such as emptying an entire mag into somebody while thinking you only pulled the trigger once, are generally confined to the start of the adrenaline rush.

I'm still trying to figure out how he would get the gun between him and the kid with the arms in the way. We're still assuming he was getting a severe beat down correct?

sorry you'll have to explain how you know that last one for me and what exactly you mean of course. Specifics please.

farson135:
The truth is that this case has nothing to do with the NRA but it is being spun that way.

It most certainly does in the sense that the driving force behind Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law was ....

(wait for it)

... the National Rifle Association.

First adopted in Florida in 2005, Stand Your Ground laws, drafted and promoted by the National Rifle Association, have since been enacted in some form in more than 20 states.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/03/21/do-stand-your-ground-laws-encourage-vigilantes/what-the-florida-stand-your-ground-law-says

Perhaps if the NRA didn't push such odious laws in the name of "gun rights," then it wouldn't face the backlash when someone is covered by said law for blowing away an unarmed teenager.

ravenshrike:

dmase:

ravenshrike:
snipped

He was shot in the chest, found face down in the grass. Makes perfect fucking sense correct? I mean an awesome criminal scene investigator, crime enthusiast, and gun advocate must have been joking when he said headshot correct?

Also initial adrenaline rush my ass, it doesn't work that way. Adrenaline levels don't just drop from sky high to zero. Hormones have to counteract the effects of epinephrine but the epinephrine still has to be flushed from the system.

I was assuming a below the chin headshot if it had been a headshot, not a between the eyes one.

As for the adrenaline rush, I never said it wore off. There are however different physiological effects at the start of an adrenaline rush and as the adrenaline rush continues. Fully unconscious reactions, such as emptying an entire mag into somebody while thinking you only pulled the trigger once, are generally confined to the start of the adrenaline rush.

Chances are when he pulled the trigger he stopped screaming because he was in shock at what he had just done. Killing someone and realizing what had just happened is a life changing event. He probably just froze at that point.

dmase:

ravenshrike:

dmase:

He was shot in the chest, found face down in the grass. Makes perfect fucking sense correct? I mean an awesome criminal scene investigator, crime enthusiast, and gun advocate must have been joking when he said headshot correct?

Also initial adrenaline rush my ass, it doesn't work that way. Adrenaline levels don't just drop from sky high to zero. Hormones have to counteract the effects of epinephrine but the epinephrine still has to be flushed from the system.

I was assuming a below the chin headshot if it had been a headshot, not a between the eyes one.

As for the adrenaline rush, I never said it wore off. There are however different physiological effects at the start of an adrenaline rush and as the adrenaline rush continues. Fully unconscious reactions, such as emptying an entire mag into somebody while thinking you only pulled the trigger once, are generally confined to the start of the adrenaline rush.

I'm still trying to figure out how he would get the gun between him and the kid with the arms in the way. We're still assuming he was getting a severe beat down correct?

sorry you'll have to explain how you know that last one for me and what exactly you mean of course. Specifics please.

I don't even think the guy was getting a severe beat down. It was obvious that he was paranoid and on edge with the way he followed the kid, then when he confronted him and was not expecting the reaction he received. Going by witness accounts, and the evidence, it appears as if he confronted the kid, then the kid reacted with fight or flight and attacked him because he was afraid of him. Having someone following you and then comes after you is terrifying. He probably knocked the overweight man to the ground, injurying the back of his head and when starting to calm down and back off, Zimmerman grabbed his gun and shot him.

Zimmerman should go to jail for following him and confronting him in the first place, but I am not going to try and spin the evidence to make it out to be something it most likely is not. Zimmerman was screaming because he most likely overreacts easily, as is shown by following the kid and confronting him in the first place.

Lil devils x:

ravenshrike:

dmase:

He was shot in the chest, found face down in the grass. Makes perfect fucking sense correct? I mean an awesome criminal scene investigator, crime enthusiast, and gun advocate must have been joking when he said headshot correct?

Also initial adrenaline rush my ass, it doesn't work that way. Adrenaline levels don't just drop from sky high to zero. Hormones have to counteract the effects of epinephrine but the epinephrine still has to be flushed from the system.

I was assuming a below the chin headshot if it had been a headshot, not a between the eyes one.

As for the adrenaline rush, I never said it wore off. There are however different physiological effects at the start of an adrenaline rush and as the adrenaline rush continues. Fully unconscious reactions, such as emptying an entire mag into somebody while thinking you only pulled the trigger once, are generally confined to the start of the adrenaline rush.

Chances are when he pulled the trigger he stopped screaming because he was in shock at what he had just done. Killing someone and realizing what had just happened is a life changing event. He probably just froze at that point.

OR and this is the insane fucking part so give me a second. Treyvon was pleading for his life on his knees, got shot in the chest and fell forward. Or how about we split the difference treyvon has the gun pulled on him while both are standing and struggles with zimmerman for the gun while treyvon is screaming. He then shoots treyvon and throws him to the ground.

Which of these varoius scenarios is right? Probably none by judging someone's emotional state after killing someone is a complete an utter guess just like raven's adrenaline losing it's effect or some shit.

dmase:

Lil devils x:

ravenshrike:
I was assuming a below the chin headshot if it had been a headshot, not a between the eyes one.

As for the adrenaline rush, I never said it wore off. There are however different physiological effects at the start of an adrenaline rush and as the adrenaline rush continues. Fully unconscious reactions, such as emptying an entire mag into somebody while thinking you only pulled the trigger once, are generally confined to the start of the adrenaline rush.

Chances are when he pulled the trigger he stopped screaming because he was in shock at what he had just done. Killing someone and realizing what had just happened is a life changing event. He probably just froze at that point.

OR and this is the insane fucking part so give me a second. Treyvon was pleading for his life on his knees, got shot in the chest and fell forward. Or how about we split the difference treyvon has the gun pulled on him while both are standing and struggles with zimmerman for the gun while treyvon is screaming. He then shoots treyvon and throws him to the ground.

Which of these varoius scenarios is right? Probably none by judging someone's emotional state after killing someone is a complete an utter guess just like raven's adrenaline losing it's effect or some shit.

Actually, I ignored what Zimmerman had to say about it and went by what the witnesses said, his documented 911 call, the other audio, and descriptions given by the police at the time it happened. I ignored everything else.

My opinion of Zimmerman is he is a coward who wanted to be the hero. He went looking to bust bad guys, but when confronted he panics, screams like a little kid and doesn't keep a level head.

Ravens, devils, and dmase, nothing that you guys are attempting to determine can be ascertained from the evidence that we have available to us.

Tyler Perry:
Ravens, devils, and dmase, nothing that you guys are attempting to determine can be ascertained from the evidence that we have available to us.

Actually, I didn't get my evidence here. :)

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