Blablahb: If some crazed mofo aims a gun at me, chances are he'll also get a few extra punches than strictly necessary before subdued. Rather that than end with a tombstone that says "He died so insecure NRA fanboys could continue to wank over their guns". If they hadn't been cowards and brought a gun, that level of violence would never have been necessary in the first place, so whatever happens is the fault of the one who chose to turn the situation life or death by bringing weapons.
Gotta love your stance, Blablahb: "Violence is wrong, unless it's ME doing it"
Also, "wank over guns"? REALLY? That's the best you can do?
That's pretty much the most childish argument I have ever heard. Ever
cthulhuspawn82: depends on what you mean by "starting a fight". If you throw the first punch, then you probably have no right to kill the guy. But if you are just taking smack and he attacks you, then I think you can get off with self defense.
How about if you are playing basketball in the park with your 8 year old daughter.
You and I have an argument over another kid skateboarding.
I pull a handgun.
You fear for your safety, know of 'stand your ground' and pre-emptively attack me to prevent me from using my firearm.
I shoot you you dead.
Can I claim self defense?
[this actually happened and it appears I can legally kill you.]
In which case they are completely different cases. Dooley was brandishing his weapon in a threatening manner(Mexican carry is generally frowned upon, especially in the CC community http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_2_51/ai_n8591504/ ). Zimmerman was using IWB carry with a holster, so almost certainly at the small of the back, especially as he was fat, which makes IWB carry with a holster in the front both uncomfortable and much slower on the draw. It is highly unlikely that he ever said anything about having a gun to Martin beforehand.
Moreover, and from the standpoint of a trial, there were multiple witnesses within hearing range on a sunny day. With Zimmerman, we maybe have a super secret witness that will probably stand to get the case through a grand jury, but has a high chance of being destroyed upon cross examination in the actual trial(In the US justice system, the defense has virtually no say in a grand jury trial. It is effectively just prosecutors laying out their evidence.)
Blablahb: We had a topic like that earlier too. Some totally crazy jogger, grown man, also carried a gun with him always. Some 16 year old kid asks him for money, and instead of asking why, he just shoots him in the head, murdering him, and yet he walked away a free man. You also saw Americans defending the murderer in that discussion too.
The person ATTACKED him, not asked him for money. You know, lying really doesn't help your case, you know that, right?
Also, I've showed you this before, You ignored it, so yeah. You're lying again.
Then again, you might be talking about another story. If so, please provide a link. However, this is the only story I could find about a jogger shooting a teen.
4- The ugly truth is that had the victim had been white or even if it were a black on black altercation, there would have at least been an investigation and not what we had here.
You had some good points until I read this. That's crap and you know it.
Pleaaaaaase explain to me exactly why that is crap? There are countless cases throughout history of problematic relations between the legal system and African Americans. I find it hard to believe that had this case involved a non Black person as the victim, or a black person as the killer there would have been much more investigating done in this situation. To further illustrate this, Martin was in a morgue for 3 days as a John doe. This means the police found a dead teenager and didnt even bother to canvass the neighborhood to find the next of kin. Treyvon Martins mother had to look put a missing persons report out on him which is what eventually brought this story out.
As for the "secret witness" that says Martin was on top of Zimmerman in final altercation. 1- i still find that hard to swallow given the percieved difference in size. 2- i still dont see how this works in the stand your ground/self defense claims if Zimmerman pursued an altercation with martin.
4- The ugly truth is that had the victim had been white or even if it were a black on black altercation, there would have at least been an investigation and not what we had here.
You had some good points until I read this. That's crap and you know it.
Pleaaaaaase explain to me exactly why that is crap? There are countless cases throughout history of problematic relations between the legal system and African Americans. I find it hard to believe that had this case involved a non Black person as the victim, or a black person as the killer there would have been much more investigating done in this situation. To further illustrate this, Martin was in a morgue for 3 days as a John doe. This means the police found a dead teenager and didnt even bother to canvass the neighborhood to find the next of kin. Treyvon Martins mother had to look put a missing persons report out on him which is what eventually brought this story out.
You can not prove that if Zimmerman was Black and that Martins was white, that there would already have been a conviction.
Volf: You had some good points until I read this. That's crap and you know it.
Pleaaaaaase explain to me exactly why that is crap? There are countless cases throughout history of problematic relations between the legal system and African Americans. I find it hard to believe that had this case involved a non Black person as the victim, or a black person as the killer there would have been much more investigating done in this situation. To further illustrate this, Martin was in a morgue for 3 days as a John doe. This means the police found a dead teenager and didnt even bother to canvass the neighborhood to find the next of kin. Treyvon Martins mother had to look put a missing persons report out on him which is what eventually brought this story out.
You can not prove that if Zimmerman was Black and that Martins was white, that there would already have been a conviction.
That said. Ill just say that I find it likely that if not for the proven phenomena of racial profiling and latent racist ideology of many individuals, it is unlikely that this event could have occurred without the victim being black and the killer not being black.
How about you actually formulate an argument against that
Pleaaaaaase explain to me exactly why that is crap? There are countless cases throughout history of problematic relations between the legal system and African Americans. I find it hard to believe that had this case involved a non Black person as the victim, or a black person as the killer there would have been much more investigating done in this situation. To further illustrate this, Martin was in a morgue for 3 days as a John doe. This means the police found a dead teenager and didnt even bother to canvass the neighborhood to find the next of kin. Treyvon Martins mother had to look put a missing persons report out on him which is what eventually brought this story out.
You can not prove that if Zimmerman was Black and that Martins was white, that there would already have been a conviction.
ok, all that does is show that what you say is possible but can't be proven. Hence I go back to my comment.
feeqmatic: That said. Ill just say that I find it likely that if not for the proven phenomena of racial profiling and latent racist ideology of many individuals, it is unlikely that this event could have occurred without the victim being black and the killer not being black.
How about you actually formulate an argument against that
I'm not saying that Martins race might not have been a factor, just that its not as if this hasn't happened before when the roles where reversed
ok, all that does is show that what you say is possible but can't be proven. Hence I go back to my comment.
feeqmatic: That said. Ill just say that I find it likely that if not for the proven phenomena of racial profiling and latent racist ideology of many individuals, it is unlikely that this event could have occurred without the victim being black and the killer not being black.
How about you actually formulate an argument against that
I'm not saying that Martins race might not have been a factor, just that its not as if this hasn't happened before when the roles where reversed
Aside from the fact that the link provided nothing i could see to indicate the race of the individuals involved. That case was clearly investigated and taken to trial. This was an open and shut case and involved absolutely not follow up from the police as far as anyone can tell.
ok, all that does is show that what you say is possible but can't be proven. Hence I go back to my comment.
feeqmatic: That said. Ill just say that I find it likely that if not for the proven phenomena of racial profiling and latent racist ideology of many individuals, it is unlikely that this event could have occurred without the victim being black and the killer not being black.
How about you actually formulate an argument against that
I'm not saying that Martins race might not have been a factor, just that its not as if this hasn't happened before when the roles where reversed
Aside from the fact that the link provided nothing i could see to indicate the race of the individuals involved. That case was clearly investigated and taken to trial. This was an open and shut case and involved absolutely not follow up from the police as far as anyone can tell.
it was also the case where a black man used the same law to defend himself from a white man, and the black man has yet to be convicted of anything. This runs counter to the claim that a black man would have been tried and convicted if he was in Zimmermans position.
Not G. Ivingname: http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012
BIG NEWS.
Apparently it might not be just "the word of the big white man against the black one," Fox is now saying they have talked to a "secret witness" (meaning witness's identity won't be revealed before the trial) has said enough for the DA of the area to bring Martin in front of a grand jury.
That is huge news. The testimony is so good that it can raise the dead.
Volf: ok, all that does is show that what you say is possible but can't be proven. Hence I go back to my comment.
I'm not saying that Martins race might not have been a factor, just that its not as if this hasn't happened before when the roles where reversed
Aside from the fact that the link provided nothing i could see to indicate the race of the individuals involved. That case was clearly investigated and taken to trial. This was an open and shut case and involved absolutely not follow up from the police as far as anyone can tell.
it was also the case where a black man used the same law to defend himself from a white man, and the black man has yet to be convicted of anything. This runs counter to the claim that a black man would have been tried and convicted if he was in Zimmermans position.
4- The ugly truth is that had the victim had been white or even if it were a black on black altercation, there would have at least been an investigation and not what we had here.
the fact that there was a suspicious death of an unarmed teen and the mother had to file a missing persons report 3 days later shows that this has a clear problem with racial undertones. I refuse to acknowledge that our justice system could be so broken that this is something that happens to EVERYBODY. But there are plenty of stories to corroborate blacks having problems when it comes to equal treatment under the law.
the fact that there was a suspicious death of an unarmed teen and the mother had to file a missing persons report 3 days later shows that this has a clear problem with racial undertones.
All you have proven is how terrible Florida handles murder cases.
feeqmatic: I refuse to acknowledge that our justice system could be so broken that this is something that happens to EVERYBODY.
Ok then refuse, but this isn't exclusive to Black Americans.
feeqmatic: But there are plenty of stories to corroborate blacks having problems when it comes to equal treatment under the law.
True, but you have yet to establish that this case is one of those stories.
the fact that there was a suspicious death of an unarmed teen and the mother had to file a missing persons report 3 days later shows that this has a clear problem with racial undertones.
All you have proven is how terrible Florida handles murder cases.
feeqmatic: I refuse to acknowledge that our justice system could be so broken that this is something that happens to EVERYBODY.
Ok then refuse, but this isn't exclusive to Black Americans.
feeqmatic: But there are plenty of stories to corroborate blacks having problems when it comes to equal treatment under the law.
True, but you have yet to establish that this case is one of those stories.
Youre killing me Volf
It is a miscarriage of justice becuase there was no investigation in a suspicious death. The fact that the victim was black relates this to a long line of miscarriages of justice against black people. I cannot prove that they did not investigate this BECUASE he was black, but it is an easily logical assumption given the situation. I cant say it is exclusive to blacks, but in THIS case there is a clear connection between race and justice.
If you think its just because Florida is terrible in murder trials that is fine. But which is more likely. An injustice was done based partially of someones race OR a state is ran by idiots to the level that they cannot effectively ATTEMPT to investigate suspicious deaths.
reonhato: self defense should be if they attack unarmed then you can fight back unarmed or if you are disadvantaged a non-lethal weapon and not worry about an assault charge. it should not be if someone gives you a shove then you get to shot them in the face point blank.
Recently a drunk guy (from a party across the road) tried to get into my house at 2 am.
He repeatedly tried to open the door, knocked on it and demanded to be let in.
Under 'stand your ground' I could have shot him (as actually happened in Florida).
Instead of shooting him, I gave him a hand to get back to the party and made sure his mates took better care of him.
How much do you actually know about head injuries? He was getting beaten hard enough on his face that it was drawing blood on the back of his head. In that situation it is entirely possible to cause a subdural hematoma. Which are more often than not life threatening when caused by acute trauma. All this bullshit about fists not being life threatening is just that, bullshit.
Yeah, and it's also possible that Martin would have punched directly through Zimmerman's head like some Mortal Kombat move; however, neither are bloody fuckin' likely.
I agree with the previous poster -- Zimmerman's injuries are simply not consistent with someone being beaten so badly they had to resort to deadly force to end it.
Recently a drunk guy (from a party across the road) tried to get into my house at 2 am.
He repeatedly tried to open the door, knocked on it and demanded to be let in.
Under 'stand your ground' I could have shot him (as actually happened in Florida).
Instead of shooting him, I gave him a hand to get back to the party and made sure his mates took better care of him.
How much do you actually know about head injuries? He was getting beaten hard enough on his face that it was drawing blood on the back of his head. In that situation it is entirely possible to cause a subdural hematoma. Which are more often than not life threatening when caused by acute trauma. All this bullshit about fists not being life threatening is just that, bullshit.
Yeah, and it's also possible that Martin would have punched directly through Zimmerman's head like some Mortal Kombat move; however, neither are bloody fuckin' likely.
I agree with the previous poster -- Zimmerman's injuries are simply not consistent with someone being beaten so badly they had to resort to deadly force to end it.
Ah, an expert, with percentages, on incidence of subdural hematoma when on the ground being punched in the head hard enough to draw blood in the back of the head are we? Now I certainly don't know what the percentages are, but I don't pretend to either. You apparently do however. Out of curiosity, what would be your "acceptable percentage"? 0.1%, 5%, 50%? Dumbest fucking way to judge self defense measures ever.
the fact that there was a suspicious death of an unarmed teen and the mother had to file a missing persons report 3 days later shows that this has a clear problem with racial undertones.
All you have proven is how terrible Florida handles murder cases.
feeqmatic: I refuse to acknowledge that our justice system could be so broken that this is something that happens to EVERYBODY.
Ok then refuse, but this isn't exclusive to Black Americans.
feeqmatic: But there are plenty of stories to corroborate blacks having problems when it comes to equal treatment under the law.
True, but you have yet to establish that this case is one of those stories.
Youre killing me Volf
It is a miscarriage of justice becuase there was no investigation in a suspicious death. The fact that the victim was black relates this to a long line of miscarriages of justice against black people. I cannot prove that they did not investigate this BECUASE he was black, but it is an easily logical assumption given the situation. I cant say it is exclusive to blacks, but in THIS case there is a clear connection between race and justice.
If you think its just because Florida is terrible in murder trials that is fine. But which is more likely. An injustice was done based partially of someones race OR a state is ran by idiots to the level that they cannot effectively ATTEMPT to investigate suspicious deaths.
Considering that Volf brought up a similar case in Florida where a black man claiming the same defense was arrested and charged, I think it's safe to assume that not every murder case in Florida is handled the way Trayvon Martin's has been.
ravenshrike: How much do you actually know about head injuries? He was getting beaten hard enough on his face that it was drawing blood on the back of his head. In that situation it is entirely possible to cause a subdural hematoma. Which are more often than not life threatening when caused by acute trauma. All this bullshit about fists not being life threatening is just that, bullshit.
Yeah, and it's also possible that Martin would have punched directly through Zimmerman's head like some Mortal Kombat move; however, neither are bloody fuckin' likely.
I agree with the previous poster -- Zimmerman's injuries are simply not consistent with someone being beaten so badly they had to resort to deadly force to end it.
Ah, an expert, with percentages, on incidence of subdural hematoma when on the ground being punched in the head hard enough to draw blood in the back of the head are we? Now I certainly don't know what the percentages are, but I don't pretend to either. You apparently do however. Out of curiosity, what would be your "acceptable percentage"? 0.1%, 5%, 50%? Dumbest fucking way to judge self defense measures ever.
You know what else can draw blood from the back of the head? Falling on the ground in the first place.
I'm pretty sure the dumbest way to judge self-defense measures is to try and deduce what happened based on third-hand reports of forensic evidence.
It is a miscarriage of justice becuase there was no investigation in a suspicious death.
From what I've heard, your right and I'm not saying the actions that the police took were not suspicious,just want to make that clear. I agree that there seems to be misconduct. I just don't agree that its automatically because of race/racism.
feeqmatic: The fact that the victim was black relates this to a long line of miscarriages of justice against black people. I cannot prove that they did not investigate this BECUASE he was black, but it is an easily logical assumption given the situation.
So because the police have a history of treating black americans poorly, ever case where a black person is the victim thats poorly handled by the police should be automatically be assumed as racism? You don't think that some cops are just incompetent? Could it be other factors that lead a case to be handled poorly?
feeqmatic: I cant say it is exclusive to blacks, but in THIS case there is a clear connection between race and justice.
Your contradicting yourself, you just said that you can't prove that race was the reason the case was mishandled, now your saying that you know for certain that race is the reason why the case was mishandled.
If you think its just because Florida is terrible in murder trials that is fine. But which is more likely. An injustice was done based partially of someones race OR a state is ran by idiots to the level that they cannot effectively ATTEMPT to investigate suspicious deaths.
Both seem likely, there are dumb cops and their are racist cops, which I'm sure that Florida has both of. As I said, the case was handled poorly, but I'm not convinced that the cops are some racist intentionally trying not to investigate the case. I mean I think cops in Florida have better things to do then intentionally try to piss off Black American, and act out racist conduct(like avoiding the investigation of a murder case because the victim is Black).
Yeah, and it's also possible that Martin would have punched directly through Zimmerman's head like some Mortal Kombat move; however, neither are bloody fuckin' likely.
I agree with the previous poster -- Zimmerman's injuries are simply not consistent with someone being beaten so badly they had to resort to deadly force to end it.
Ah, an expert, with percentages, on incidence of subdural hematoma when on the ground being punched in the head hard enough to draw blood in the back of the head are we? Now I certainly don't know what the percentages are, but I don't pretend to either. You apparently do however. Out of curiosity, what would be your "acceptable percentage"? 0.1%, 5%, 50%? Dumbest fucking way to judge self defense measures ever.
You know what else can draw blood from the back of the head? Falling on the ground in the first place.
I'm pretty sure the dumbest way to judge self-defense measures is to try and deduce what happened based on third-hand reports of forensic evidence.
Precisely. But please, Ravenshrike, continue to defend Zimmerman based on shit you don't know.
I won't deny that there is probably more to it than some stupid white guy executes a teen with bad tastes in candy, but am i crazy in calling the cops stupid when all accounts indicate the kid was BEING STALKED BY THIS RACIST DUMBASS WHO THOUGHT SOMEONE ON A SKITTLE RUN LOOKED SUSPICIOUS?! The kid was unarmed and made it clear he knew he was being followed, how that fucking loon Zimmerman is free is beyond me. ...oh wait, maybe it's because it was a white guy killing a black kid and this wouldn't be getting attention at all if it weren't for the protests. Either way, i won't touch the Florida law because i don't know the full texts, but i don't see anything solidifying the claim Zimmerman was defending himself when all accounts to me seem to indicate he was the one who started the mess. I say he's guilty of manslaughter at the very least and should be behind bars before he executes a 14 year old Hispanic because he thought the kids Mountain Dew was an Uzi.
I agree with the previous poster -- Zimmerman's injuries are simply not consistent with someone being beaten so badly they had to resort to deadly force to end it.
But he was beating him up. I know the law is OK with you shooting someone who is trying to kill you, but I am not quite clear on the rules for shooting someone who is just kicking your ass. Either way, I would feel justified in shooting someone who I knew was simply going to beat me up. We all have inherit human rights, and the right to not get your ass kicked is one of them. I would never just lie back and allow somebody to give me a black eye and a busted lip because my only means of stopping them would be lethal.
Pyramid Head: I won't deny that there is probably more to it than some stupid white guy executes a teen with bad tastes in candy, but am i crazy in calling the cops stupid when all accounts indicate the kid was BEING STALKED BY THIS RACIST DUMBASS WHO THOUGHT SOMEONE ON A SKITTLE RUN LOOKED SUSPICIOUS?! The kid was unarmed and made it clear he knew he was being followed, how that fucking loon Zimmerman is free is beyond me. ...oh wait, maybe it's because it was a white guy killing a black kid and this wouldn't be getting attention at all if it weren't for the protests. Either way, i won't touch the Florida law because i don't know the full texts, but i don't see anything solidifying the claim Zimmerman was defending himself when all accounts to me seem to indicate he was the one who started the mess. I say he's guilty of manslaughter at the very least and should be behind bars before he executes a 14 year old Hispanic because he thought the kids Mountain Dew was an Uzi.
Listening to the other tapes with the kid screaming for help and being silenced by a gunshot, its pretty easy to tell that it was nothing short of murder. When I originally heard it I thought that maybe there was a fight or something between Zimmerman following him(against better judgement and instructions from 911) and getting shot. It seems however that Zimmerman just shot a kid that was screaming for help. This man ought to be in jail, there is no excuse for something like this.
A handful of members from the New Black Panther Party rallied in Sanford on Saturday and offered a $10,000 reward for Zimmerman's "capture."
"It's time for us, as black men, to take justice in our own hands. If you won't give us justice, we will have to take justice," said Florida organizer Mikhail Muhammad. "An eye for an eye. A life for a life."
The New Black Panther Party, which the Southern Poverty Law Center describes as a "virulently racist and anti-Semitic organization," is distinct from the better-known Black Panther Party, founded in the late 1960s.
I agree with the previous poster -- Zimmerman's injuries are simply not consistent with someone being beaten so badly they had to resort to deadly force to end it.
But he was beating him up. I know the law is OK with you shooting someone who is trying to kill you, but I am not quite clear on the rules for shooting someone who is just kicking your ass. Either way, I would feel justified in shooting someone who I knew was simply going to beat me up. We all have inherit human rights, and the right to not get your ass kicked is one of them. I would never just lie back and allow somebody to give me a black eye and a busted lip because my only means of stopping them would be lethal.
He lost any claim of "self defense" when he started the altercation.
And no, that's bullshit. Getting a well-deserved ass-kicking is not justification for homicide. I've gotten the shit kicked out of me before; I've beaten the shit out of someone before. At no point did murder enter the equation. And that's what it was. Murder.
Zimmerman was unable to handle the situation he got himself into, so his only recourse was to kill someone. What a bitch move.
Zef Otter: So what if he is Latino? Latino's can still be racist.
The point is that the media needs Zimmerman to be white to align with its narrative. So with a little creative accounting voilà he becomes white. If the media wants to talk somebody doing something bad they make them whiter, it never works in the other direction.
Zef Otter: So what if he is Latino? Latino's can still be racist.
The point is that the media needs Zimmerman to be white to align with its narrative. So with a little creative accounting voilà he becomes white. If the media wants to talk somebody doing something bad they make them whiter, it never works in the other direction.
The media's (at least CNN, MSNBC and Fox Noise) never said Zimmerman was white.
cobra_ky: You know what else can draw blood from the back of the head? Falling on the ground in the first place.
I'm pretty sure the dumbest way to judge self-defense measures is to try and deduce what happened based on third-hand reports of forensic evidence.
That entire tete a tete started with the assertion that if fists are involved guns cannot be an appropriate self defense response. Not once did I say that's how it actually went down.
Blablahb: Oh, the NRA apologists will find some way to defend this, somehow or other... Stuff like this happens dozens of times a year and you won't hear about it.
NRA promotes the RESPONSIBLE use of firearms in SELF DEFENSE. Zimmerman was irresponsible and being an aggressor. Those are opposite things.
On subject, I was recently arguing with somehow who claimed Zim was defending himself as is evident by the fact that Martin was shot in the chest which I thought was a rather invalid argument for a few reasons. One: innocent people can be shot in the chest, two: facing someone doesn't neccesarily mean you're fighting them, and three: perhaps Martin was standing his ground as well. Side note: the best way to avoid going to jail when you hear a robber is to do this: call 911, have a family plan to hide in a secure room with a back-up room (or outside), announce yourself (while still on the phone with 911) saying something along the lines of "The cops are on there way. I'm here and if you try to come in here then I will shoot". This is so that there is a recording of your statements which can be used to back up your self defense claim. STAY IN THAT ROOM! If they want to stay and continue to take your stuff then LET THEM! You do not own ANYTHING that is worth dying over. DO NOT hunt them down. Odds are, you don't know for certain how many of them there are and where they are. The worst thing that could happen is for one of the robbers to attack you and get your weapon. If they do, then you're (likely) going to die and they are now armed (if they were already armed then they now have another weapon). So, yeah, stay in the room. Also, be a safe distance from the door but keep your weapon ready to take out anybody who comes in and ALWAYS identify your target so you don't shoot a relative. Oh, one last bit of advice: check out specialty ammo (if you're using a firearm) which will not go through a wall and hit anybody on the other side (example: your kid hiding in the other room).
Oh boy, that's a nice find. I'm just afraid the reality may not be able to stand against constant repetition. I mean, damn, the lie already made it into "demotivational poster"-territory.
Zef Otter: So what if he is Latino? Latino's can still be racist.
The point is that the media needs Zimmerman to be white to align with its narrative. So with a little creative accounting voilà he becomes white. If the media wants to talk somebody doing something bad they make them whiter, it never works in the other direction.
The media's (at least CNN, MSNBC and Fox Noise) never said Zimmerman was white.
But last month's shooting death of Trayvon Martin -- an unarmed black teenager who police said was shot by a white neighborhood watch captain -- has reopened old wounds. The police have not arrested George Zimmerman, 28, who is white, and who police said admitted to shooting the teen in self-defense.
swolf: NRA promotes the RESPONSIBLE use of firearms in SELF DEFENSE.
Yeah, yeah, just keep telling yourself that.
swolf: Zimmerman was irresponsible and being an aggressor.
What happened to defending yourself at all costs? You know, the NRA gospel. After all, a nigger person walking through your neighbourhood is such a huge threat, people really need guns to 'defend' themselves against him.
Zimmerman did just that, and a 17 year old is never going home again, and his parents will forever miss their son.
Untill another week passes, and some other self-defense pro-gun freak just like Zimmerman murders somebody else, and all the NRA apologists will go 'ohnoes, who could've expected this? We give them guns and they... *gasp* use them?'
Gotta love your stance, Blablahb: "Violence is wrong, unless it's ME doing it"
Also, "wank over guns"? REALLY? That's the best you can do?
That's pretty much the most childish argument I have ever heard. Ever