So, Trayvon Martin. (Updated 9/10: From the duh and oops departments)

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reonhato:

The_AC:

reonhato:

except murder is not a two way street, there is 1 victim and 1 murderer.

using your example of men and women and sex. lets assume we have 90% white and 10% black. a white person kills a black person. we only have 1 white person murdering a black victim, we do not have 1 white and 1 black murderer and we do not have 1 white and 1 black victim. ignoring all the other issues that influence murder rates, if we were to pick 100 random people and have them murder 100 people at random then the chance of a 1 of those people being a black person killing a black person is only 1%, but the chance of having a black person kill a white person is 9%. of course in reality this does not happen but i hope you get the point. 1 person is the victim, 1 is the murderer, your sex example does not work because we are comparing murders, not encounters as you used.

That is a good point, but I didn't bring up the odds of a random black murdering any white versus the odds of a random white murdering any black ("A random black is 15x as likely to kill a white as a random white is to kill a black"). That particular statistic would, to the average person, make the discrepancy look higher than it really is.

I said "Blacks kill whites twice as often as whites kill blacks."

i dont care what the real world statistics are, like i said there are many many variables. what i care about is your warped sense of statistics.

you said this

"Someone would expect that the number of people who own Dell computers who get murdered by people without Dell computers, to be the same as the number of people without Dell computers who get murdered by people with Dell computers."

lets use the same 90-10 figure since its easy to work with, now only 10% of people own dells and 90% do not. if you take 100 murderers and ignore all other variables then statistically you are going to have

90 people without dells

81 murder a person without a dell
9 murder a person with a dell

10 people with dells

9 murder a person without a dell
1 murders a person with a dell

now change dell owners to black and non dell owners to white and we have

90 white people murdering 81 white people and 9 black people

10 black people murdering 9 white people and 1 black person.

now it is that bottom one that is relevant to you. see how the fact that there are more white people/dell owners influence how many are killed.

again obviously the real world does not exactly work like this. we have things like black neighbourhoods where black people outnumber white people and black people are more likely to marry black people and spouses are more likely to kill each other and so on.

in the end it comes back to your failing of statistics. more white people does mean there are going to be more white victims because crime only goes one way. a white guy living in an area with 90-10 split has 9 potential white victims for every 1 potential black and it is the same for a black person.

You're kind of doing an accidental strawman (since it's an accident, it's not like I'm pissed about it or anything). I edited my post above yours while you were typing yours.

You have a country of 300,000,000, 13% black and 70% white. A random person is 0.004% likely to commit murder in a year. We'll assume race and murder have absolutely jack to do with each other.

blacks murdered by whites = (300 million)(13%) * (0.004%)(70%) = 1092
whites murdered by blacks = (300 million)(70%) * (0.004%)(13%) = 1092

it's like how x*y = y*x. The numbers "whites murdered by blacks" and "whites murdered by blacks" would be [exactly] the same, if race and murder had [exactly] nothing to do with each other. However, I was merely pointing out that blacks murder whites twice as often as whites murder blacks.

EDIT: I underlined and bolded two lines from your argument. The fact that those two numbers are the same proves me right.

I smell a bit of a race realism debate going on here... uh oh.

AC your statistics and historical analysis is semi accurate but incredibly slanted to present the argument you most agree with and not neccisarily the one that makes the most sense.

Here are a couple of things i would like to throw at you.

1- does the fact that there are nearly 6 times the amount of whites not increase the likelyhood that blacks would essentially find many more opportunities to kill them than vice versa.

2- How does the fact that 86% of violent crimes against whites being intraracial support your overall ideology?

3- You have made statements about genetics, culture, environment, etc. What genetic elements can be attributed for Caucasoid people to consistently act in a "problematic" way towards those who do not look like them over the course of history. Can i through same thought process as you say that whites are genetically predisposed to oppression and exploitation? (even of those that look just like them in many cases)

4- Considering that crime rates clearly have direct relationships with poverty rates, education, community infrastructure, etc, across racial lines, is it not reasonable to say that a culture and socioeconomic status are much more significant indicators of certain criminal activities than race?

5- What are your thoughts on the Trayvon Martin case?

feeqmatic:
I smell a bit of a race realism debate going on here... uh oh.

AC your statistics and historical analysis is semi accurate but incredibly slanted to present the argument you most agree with and not neccisarily the one that makes the most sense.

Here are a couple of things i would like to throw at you.

1- does the fact that there are nearly 6 times the amount of whites not increase the likelyhood that blacks would essentially find many more opportunities to kill them than vice versa.

2- How does the fact that 86% of violent crimes against whites being intraracial support your overall ideology?

3- You have made statements about genetics, culture, environment, etc. What genetic elements can be attributed for Caucasoid people to consistently act in a "problematic" way towards those who do not look like them over the course of history. Can i through same thought process as you say that whites are genetically predisposed to oppression and exploitation? (even of those that look just like them in many cases)

4- Considering that crime rates clearly have direct relationships with poverty rates, education, community infrastructure, etc, across racial lines, is it not reasonable to say that a culture and socioeconomic status are much more significant indicators of certain criminal activities than race?

5- What are your thoughts on the Trayvon Martin case?

1 - No. Long story made short, the fact that there are 7x as many whites to be murderers, and the fact that there are 7x as many whites to get murdered, cancel each other out perfectly. I've explained this above, and used numerous analogies.

2 - The closest thing I said to an "ideology" is something like "the media are milking this because of the race issue." The 86% figure could be 99% for all I care.

3 - There could certainly be a genetic/evolved component that makes whites oppress others. Of course, there are racial civil wars in Africa right now, the Arabs and Africans used to enslave ach other (and sometimes still do), and whites are pretty much the only non-"racist" people in the world currently (if you feel otherwise, go to a non-white country, complain about [their race]-privelege, and tell me how long it takes for them to quit laughing). So it's possible that whites were just better at it due to technology. Or perhaps white's genes made them want to explore, so that gene was "misfiring" and causing them to oppress? Yeah, I'll stop since I'm starting to think aloud, and I answered you with the first sentence.

4 - Last time I checked, it wasn't "across racial lines," and the correlation is higher for race than it is for poverty, unemployment, or high school dropout rates.

5 - Probably a Rambo-wannabe, and the media are reporting the race just because the guy is "white." I recently listened to a 911 call where the police told Zimmermann to quit following him, and he said "OK," then he started discussing with them where he'd meet the cops once they arrived. So he made multiple 911 calls I guess? So it's possible (not terribly likely) that that could change things.

Also: Holy shit this is off-topic.

We are on to debating whether or not being black makes you inherently more likely to be a criminal? Really?

thaluikhain:
We are on to debating whether or not being black makes you inherently more likely to be a criminal? Really?

Yes we are...

im pretty much done after the last comment. Ive seen this before, it wont go anywhere useful.

comment has been removed

The_AC:

reonhato:

The_AC:

That is a good point, but I didn't bring up the odds of a random black murdering any white versus the odds of a random white murdering any black ("A random black is 15x as likely to kill a white as a random white is to kill a black"). That particular statistic would, to the average person, make the discrepancy look higher than it really is.

I said "Blacks kill whites twice as often as whites kill blacks."

i dont care what the real world statistics are, like i said there are many many variables. what i care about is your warped sense of statistics.

you said this

"Someone would expect that the number of people who own Dell computers who get murdered by people without Dell computers, to be the same as the number of people without Dell computers who get murdered by people with Dell computers."

lets use the same 90-10 figure since its easy to work with, now only 10% of people own dells and 90% do not. if you take 100 murderers and ignore all other variables then statistically you are going to have

90 people without dells

81 murder a person without a dell
9 murder a person with a dell

10 people with dells

9 murder a person without a dell
1 murders a person with a dell

now change dell owners to black and non dell owners to white and we have

90 white people murdering 81 white people and 9 black people

10 black people murdering 9 white people and 1 black person.

now it is that bottom one that is relevant to you. see how the fact that there are more white people/dell owners influence how many are killed.

again obviously the real world does not exactly work like this. we have things like black neighbourhoods where black people outnumber white people and black people are more likely to marry black people and spouses are more likely to kill each other and so on.

in the end it comes back to your failing of statistics. more white people does mean there are going to be more white victims because crime only goes one way. a white guy living in an area with 90-10 split has 9 potential white victims for every 1 potential black and it is the same for a black person.

You're kind of doing an accidental strawman (since it's an accident, it's not like I'm pissed about it or anything). I edited my post above yours while you were typing yours.

You have a country of 300,000,000, 13% black and 70% white. A random person is 0.004% likely to commit murder in a year. We'll assume race and murder have absolutely jack to do with each other.

blacks murdered by whites = (300 million)(13%) * (0.004%)(70%) = 1092
whites murdered by blacks = (300 million)(70%) * (0.004%)(13%) = 1092

it's like how x*y = y*x. The numbers "whites murdered by blacks" and "whites murdered by blacks" would be [exactly] the same, if race and murder had [exactly] nothing to do with each other. However, I was merely pointing out that blacks murder whites twice as often as whites murder blacks.

EDIT: I underlined and bolded two lines from your argument. The fact that those two numbers are the same proves me right.

Your numbers are wrong. You are saying there are 300 million blacks and 300 million whites.

To make it easy lets use an easy number, 1000 and a murder chance of 10%. In a population of 1000 there would be 130 blacks and 700 whites. At 10% murder 13 blacks would commit murder and 70 whites. If given an equal distribution along racial lines the 70 whites would kill 61 whites and 9 blacks, the blacks would kill 2 blacks and 11 whites.

This is where statistics gets the spin treatment. Using the above you can say that blacks kill a larger percentage of whites then fellow blacks. That is true. However the rate of killing whites and blacks is exactly the same, so you can also say that blacks kill whites just as much as they kill blacks.

To get the real story you would need to get the number of murders committed by blacks and compare the rate of murder along racial lines to the population distribution and then do the same for whites and finally compare the two.

pyrate:
Your numbers are wrong. You are saying there are 300 million blacks and 300 million whites.

To make it easy lets use an easy number, 1000 and a murder chance of 10%. In a population of 1000 there would be 130 blacks and 700 whites. At 10% murder 13 blacks would commit murder and 70 whites. If given an equal distribution along racial lines the 70 whites would kill 61 whites and 9 blacks, the blacks would kill 2 blacks and 11 whites.

The 70 murderers who were white would murder 9.1 blacks, 49 whites, and 11.9 other

The 13 murderers who were black would murder 1.69 blacks, 9.1 whites, and 2.21 other

(You said the total population is 1000, with 700 whites and 130 blacks. Meaning 170 other.)

The fact that the two underlined numbers are the same means that if race and murder were in no way related whatsoever, the number of blacks who murder whites would be the same as the number of whites who murder blacks.

The people shouting for justice for Trayvon are all hypocrites. They don't want justice, they just want to get their way.

You notice that they all say the Zimmerman is guilty, that he is a murderer. They might say they want an investigation and a trial to determine the truth, but that's pointless because they already have their truth, that Zimmerman is guilty. So they aren't looking for justice, they want a guilty verdict, weather that verdict is just or not.

And this is all politically motivated. The people asking for "justice" the kind of people who think that all conservatives and gun owners are a bunch of racist, trigger happy rednecks. I don't think we know Zimmerman's political affiliation, but in their mind he is the "White Republic Male" they love to villainize and blame all the countries problems on. That is reason enough to send him to the electric chair.

cthulhuspawn82:
The people shouting for justice for Trayvon are all hypocrites. They don't want justice, they just want to get their way.

You notice that they all say the Zimmerman is guilty, that he is a murderer. They might say they want an investigation and a trial to determine the truth, but that's pointless because they already have their truth, that Zimmerman is guilty. So they aren't looking for justice, they want a guilty verdict, weather that verdict is just or not.

And this is all politically motivated. The people asking for "justice" the kind of people who think that all conservatives and gun owners are a bunch of racist, trigger happy rednecks. I don't think we know Zimmerman's political affiliation, but in their mind he is the "White Republic Male" they love to villainize and blame all the countries problems on. That is reason enough to send him to the electric chair.

I'm going to shout for justice for Trayvon.

I want to see a thorough investigation by a team of trained Police Officers. I want a public announcement as to why one man who was responsible for the death by shooting of an unarmed teenager was allowed to simple leave the scene of the crime (used here as a euphamism) instead of being detained, questioned and his weapon subject to seizure and testing by Forensic Experts. I want to see this go to court if the Police advise the evidence warrents and Zimmerman to avail himself of the law he believes he was acting under before a jury of his peers with legal representation.

Satisfied?

Gordon_4:

cthulhuspawn82:
The people shouting for justice for Trayvon are all hypocrites. They don't want justice, they just want to get their way.

You notice that they all say the Zimmerman is guilty, that he is a murderer. They might say they want an investigation and a trial to determine the truth, but that's pointless because they already have their truth, that Zimmerman is guilty. So they aren't looking for justice, they want a guilty verdict, weather that verdict is just or not.

And this is all politically motivated. The people asking for "justice" the kind of people who think that all conservatives and gun owners are a bunch of racist, trigger happy rednecks. I don't think we know Zimmerman's political affiliation, but in their mind he is the "White Republic Male" they love to villainize and blame all the countries problems on. That is reason enough to send him to the electric chair.

I'm going to shout for justice for Trayvon.

I want to see a thorough investigation by a team of trained Police Officers. I want a public announcement as to why one man who was responsible for the death by shooting of an unarmed teenager was allowed to simple leave the scene of the crime (used here as a euphamism) instead of being detained, questioned and his weapon subject to seizure and testing by Forensic Experts. I want to see this go to court if the Police advise the evidence warrents and Zimmerman to avail himself of the law he believes he was acting under before a jury of his peers with legal representation.

Satisfied?

If you really are looking for the truth, then you are the exception. Most people in this thread, and thought the media/internet have stated that George Zimmerman IS a murderer. They cant logically call for an investigation/trial for the truth when they have already decided what the truth is.

Even if you haven't jumped to conclusions like everyone else, I bet you think he is guilty, and I bet you want a guilty verdict.

cthulhuspawn82:

Gordon_4:

cthulhuspawn82:
The people shouting for justice for Trayvon are all hypocrites. They don't want justice, they just want to get their way.

You notice that they all say the Zimmerman is guilty, that he is a murderer. They might say they want an investigation and a trial to determine the truth, but that's pointless because they already have their truth, that Zimmerman is guilty. So they aren't looking for justice, they want a guilty verdict, weather that verdict is just or not.

And this is all politically motivated. The people asking for "justice" the kind of people who think that all conservatives and gun owners are a bunch of racist, trigger happy rednecks. I don't think we know Zimmerman's political affiliation, but in their mind he is the "White Republic Male" they love to villainize and blame all the countries problems on. That is reason enough to send him to the electric chair.

I'm going to shout for justice for Trayvon.

I want to see a thorough investigation by a team of trained Police Officers. I want a public announcement as to why one man who was responsible for the death by shooting of an unarmed teenager was allowed to simple leave the scene of the crime (used here as a euphamism) instead of being detained, questioned and his weapon subject to seizure and testing by Forensic Experts. I want to see this go to court if the Police advise the evidence warrents and Zimmerman to avail himself of the law he believes he was acting under before a jury of his peers with legal representation.

Satisfied?

I bet you think he is guilty, and I bet you want a guilty verdict.

What I think is irrelevent, its up to prosecutors to convince a jury of his peers that he's gulty if it comes to that and his defence team to convince them he isn't. The circumstances are suspicious to my eye since we have few eye-witnesses that have been mentioned and only one half of the altercating pair is alive to give their version of events....so do these factors colour my thoughts on the matter. Yeah they do, but I'm not a Police Officer, I'm not an EMT, a Lawyer or even a citizen of the United States, so Zimmerman shouldn't care what I think.

captcha: have an inkling.....oh I'm having one alright.

cthulhuspawn82:
The people shouting for justice for Trayvon are all hypocrites. They don't want justice, they just want to get their way.

You notice that they all say the Zimmerman is guilty, that he is a murderer. They might say they want an investigation and a trial to determine the truth, but that's pointless because they already have their truth, that Zimmerman is guilty. So they aren't looking for justice, they want a guilty verdict, weather that verdict is just or not.

And this is all politically motivated. The people asking for "justice" the kind of people who think that all conservatives and gun owners are a bunch of racist, trigger happy rednecks. I don't think we know Zimmerman's political affiliation, but in their mind he is the "White Republic Male" they love to villainize and blame all the countries problems on. That is reason enough to send him to the electric chair.

Not true. I am not surprised the media plays up the race aspect, as the sensationalism sells, not facts.

As far as I am concerned a terrible law (Stand your Ground) allowed someone to kill an unarmed stranger without provoking a full police investigation.

Remember Martin also had a legal right to beat Zimmerman to death for stalking him and claim self defense under Stand your Ground.

That is why Stand your Ground a terrible law.

However I do wonder if Zimmerman would have followed and reported Martin to the police if Martin had not been black.

But only because I think Martin would still be alive if Zimmerman had made any one of a number of a different choices (and so I question Zimmerman's motives for suspecting Martin in the first place).

The_AC:
"Blacks kill whites twice as often as whites kill blacks."

And whites kill 'others' (not white or black) 44 times as often as 'others' kill whites.

Stupid statistics are stupid...

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl06.xls

cthulhuspawn82:

If you really are looking for the truth, then you are the exception. Most people in this thread... have stated that George Zimmerman IS a murderer. They cant logically call for an investigation/trial for the truth when they have already decided what the truth is.

Even if you haven't jumped to conclusions like everyone else, I bet you think he is guilty, and I bet you want a guilty verdict.

Bullshit.

I'm not checking all the media, but I've just read through over 7+ pages of this thread and barely anyone has declared Zimmerman a murderer. Some have said stuff like he has some responsibility/culpability in what occurred. Some have said he probably could be found guilty. They've said some law or other sucks, and so on. But really, virtually none have declared he is outright a murderer even half so much as they've said the police should have done a better job and that a trial at least is appropriate.

You should not logically call your fellow forum-users biased, unfair victimisers of Zimmerman (i.e. white male Republicans in your mind, re. #254) when the truth of what they have said sits in plain sight to recognise otherwise.

Try tackling people on what they say, not what you want them say to make your life and prejudices easier.

The_AC:

You're kind of doing an accidental strawman (since it's an accident, it's not like I'm pissed about it or anything). I edited my post above yours while you were typing yours.

You have a country of 300,000,000, 13% black and 70% white. A random person is 0.004% likely to commit murder in a year. We'll assume race and murder have absolutely jack to do with each other.

blacks murdered by whites = (300 million)(13%) * (0.004%)(70%) = 1092
whites murdered by blacks = (300 million)(70%) * (0.004%)(13%) = 1092

it's like how x*y = y*x. The numbers "whites murdered by blacks" and "whites murdered by blacks" would be [exactly] the same, if race and murder had [exactly] nothing to do with each other. However, I was merely pointing out that blacks murder whites twice as often as whites murder blacks.

EDIT: I underlined and bolded two lines from your argument. The fact that those two numbers are the same proves me right.

Ah. alright then, i misunderstood you before. I thought you were talking about the conditional probability given the murderer's race.

the interesting thing though, is that according to the actual statistics (which TechNoFear posted) you're far more like to be murdered by someone of your own race.

cthulhuspawn82:

Gordon_4:

I'm going to shout for justice for Trayvon.

I want to see a thorough investigation by a team of trained Police Officers. I want a public announcement as to why one man who was responsible for the death by shooting of an unarmed teenager was allowed to simple leave the scene of the crime (used here as a euphamism) instead of being detained, questioned and his weapon subject to seizure and testing by Forensic Experts. I want to see this go to court if the Police advise the evidence warrents and Zimmerman to avail himself of the law he believes he was acting under before a jury of his peers with legal representation.

Satisfied?

If you really are looking for the truth, then you are the exception. Most people in this thread, and thought the media/internet have stated that George Zimmerman IS a murderer. They cant logically call for an investigation/trial for the truth when they have already decided what the truth is.

Even if you haven't jumped to conclusions like everyone else, I bet you think he is guilty, and I bet you want a guilty verdict.

Can i be an exception too? because i completely agree with everything Gordon just said.

I live in Kissimmee which is 35 minutes from Sanford where this happened. I've been following the reports and this whole thing is so sad. Whether or not Martin struck first in my mind doesn't matter. If Zimmerman had not stalked the guy or at least STOPPED when the 911 operator told him to this kid would still be alive today. The confrontation is a direct consequence to Zimmerman following this guy. I know if some guy was following me from his car and then tried to approach me I sure as heck would be on the defensive and ready for anything to go down.

And for those saying this isn't a race thing because Zimmerman is half-white half-hispanic that does not mean it was not racial profiling and stereotyping. Not to mention the racial slur he threw out during the 911 call. There are plenty of hispanics who are racists against blacks and vice versa. Just because he is half hispanic does not mean he didnt racial profile and stereotype Martin. I am hispanic by the way and can even say from personal experience they are indeed racists of all colors.

Also about the Sanford PD: As a local here I will say that Sanford PD has a notorious reputation for being a "good ole boys" organization as we call it down here. I honestly am not surprised that they handled the death of a black man, regardless of the circumstances poorly. While it's not fair to say ALL of Sanford PD are like that I will say it's a well known stigma of that police force that they stereotype and treat minorities poorly.

Just wanted to throw in my two cents about the police force being a local in central florida.

cthulhuspawn82:

Gordon_4:

cthulhuspawn82:
The people shouting for justice for Trayvon are all hypocrites. They don't want justice, they just want to get their way.

You notice that they all say the Zimmerman is guilty, that he is a murderer. They might say they want an investigation and a trial to determine the truth, but that's pointless because they already have their truth, that Zimmerman is guilty. So they aren't looking for justice, they want a guilty verdict, weather that verdict is just or not.

And this is all politically motivated. The people asking for "justice" the kind of people who think that all conservatives and gun owners are a bunch of racist, trigger happy rednecks. I don't think we know Zimmerman's political affiliation, but in their mind he is the "White Republic Male" they love to villainize and blame all the countries problems on. That is reason enough to send him to the electric chair.

I'm going to shout for justice for Trayvon.

I want to see a thorough investigation by a team of trained Police Officers. I want a public announcement as to why one man who was responsible for the death by shooting of an unarmed teenager was allowed to simple leave the scene of the crime (used here as a euphamism) instead of being detained, questioned and his weapon subject to seizure and testing by Forensic Experts. I want to see this go to court if the Police advise the evidence warrents and Zimmerman to avail himself of the law he believes he was acting under before a jury of his peers with legal representation.

Satisfied?

If you really are looking for the truth, then you are the exception. Most people in this thread, and thought the media/internet have stated that George Zimmerman IS a murderer. They cant logically call for an investigation/trial for the truth when they have already decided what the truth is.

Even if you haven't jumped to conclusions like everyone else, I bet you think he is guilty, and I bet you want a guilty verdict.

Oh, stop it. That's simply bullshit. Quit trying to play your Conservative Victim Card.

I ALSO agree with Gordon, as do, from what I can tell, virtually everyone else in this thread. You are accusing people of arguing things that they never argued.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/26/10868250-thousands-march-in-protest-to-florida-hearing-on-trayvon-martin-slaying

"One witness told police he saw Martin pounding Zimmerman on the ground. This witness was certain it was Zimmerman who was crying for help, the Sentinel reported."

This is consistent with the report and statements I read. I guess they are just now releasing the details?

Aaaand there have been several important updates in the Zimmerman case.

Update numero uno - Martin was suspended for having a baggie with pot residue in it.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jPeWhNjxsBsp-YhZwMZvF7Xhr8AA?docId=69058dff0e374adbb4f01bd173921cf3

This is direct from the spokesman that the Martin family hired to talk with news agencies. So true and not made up to blacken Martin's image.

Update numero dos - Ze infamous "coons" audio. In reality he was saying punks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZLIZOM32I4&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtpgUelv0Gw

This is rather obvious when his best friend is black, and when you consider the fact that he is the captain of the neighborhood watch. And has run off teenagers before doing illegal shit. The idea that he would use the word coons over an open phone line is stupid.

Update numero tres - Aaand this is the biggie.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-trayvon-martin-new-black-panthers-protest-20120324,0,1231157.story

The New Black Panthers(you may remember them from when they violated federal election laws and threatened voters in the 2008 elections but charges were quashed by the Holder justice dept., causing an attorney in Justice to resign over the issue) have officially put a $10,000 bounty on Zimmerman's head. This violates federal kidnapping laws six ways from Sunday, but it is likely the Holder Justice dept. will once again decline to press charges.

ravenshrike:

Update numero tres - Aaand this is the biggie.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-trayvon-martin-new-black-panthers-protest-20120324,0,1231157.story

The New Black Panthers(you may remember them from when they violated federal election laws and threatened voters in the 2008 elections but charges were quashed by the Holder justice dept., causing an attorney in Justice to resign over the issue) have officially put a $10,000 bounty on Zimmerman's head. This violates federal kidnapping laws six ways from Sunday, but it is likely the Holder Justice dept. will once again decline to press charges.

I don't have sound at work, so I can't listen to the audio on that one, but this one here has nothing to do with Zimmerman's guilt or innocence.

And btw, claiming that the charges were "quashed" rather than "bullshit" in the 2008 "voter intimidation case" is right-wing media bullshit. It's a fucking lie. They were guilty of nothing other than Standing While Black.

Tyler Perry:

ravenshrike:

Update numero tres - Aaand this is the biggie.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-trayvon-martin-new-black-panthers-protest-20120324,0,1231157.story

The New Black Panthers(you may remember them from when they violated federal election laws and threatened voters in the 2008 elections but charges were quashed by the Holder justice dept., causing an attorney in Justice to resign over the issue) have officially put a $10,000 bounty on Zimmerman's head. This violates federal kidnapping laws six ways from Sunday, but it is likely the Holder Justice dept. will once again decline to press charges.

I don't have sound at work, so I can't listen to the audio on that one, but this one here has nothing to do with Zimmerman's guilt or innocence.

And btw, claiming that the charges were "quashed" rather than "bullshit" in the 2008 "voter intimidation case" is right-wing media bullshit. It's a fucking lie. They were guilty of nothing other than Standing While Black.

Riiiiiiggggghhhhht, which is why the way the Holder Justice dept. swept it under the table was to have him sign a piece of paper promising not to come near a polling place with a deadly weapon again until 2012. Or, yknow, the witnesses saying they were intimidating people. Those were just figments of the right wing's imagination.

ravenshrike:

Tyler Perry:

ravenshrike:

Update numero tres - Aaand this is the biggie.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-trayvon-martin-new-black-panthers-protest-20120324,0,1231157.story

The New Black Panthers(you may remember them from when they violated federal election laws and threatened voters in the 2008 elections but charges were quashed by the Holder justice dept., causing an attorney in Justice to resign over the issue) have officially put a $10,000 bounty on Zimmerman's head. This violates federal kidnapping laws six ways from Sunday, but it is likely the Holder Justice dept. will once again decline to press charges.

I don't have sound at work, so I can't listen to the audio on that one, but this one here has nothing to do with Zimmerman's guilt or innocence.

And btw, claiming that the charges were "quashed" rather than "bullshit" in the 2008 "voter intimidation case" is right-wing media bullshit. It's a fucking lie. They were guilty of nothing other than Standing While Black.

Riiiiiiggggghhhhht, which is why the way the Holder Justice dept. swept it under the table was to have him sign a piece of paper promising not to come near a polling place with a deadly weapon again until 2012. Or, yknow, the witnesses saying they were intimidating people. Those were just figments of the right wing's imagination.

Links please? You claiming these happened do not make it so. Fox and the right-wing wurlitzer made up an incredible amount of bullshit about that case.

Edit: I'm also curious about how the NBP -- who, yes, appear to be more out for revenge than justice -- putting a "bounty" on Zimmerman has anything at all to do with the facts of the actual Zimmerman/Martin case. Or, for that matter, what the reason for Martin's suspension has to do with the facts of the case.

One thing I noticed today is that the news doesnt mind mentioning the pot, which I brought up two pages ago based on a screenshot of his facebook with one of his friends saying he needed a plant... but they are leaving out that he was found with 12 pieces of women's jewelery and a large flat head screw driver described as a burglary tool.

Seriously, search that- it's out there but hardly anyone mentioning it. Originally reported by miami herald. These items were photographed by the school and sent to miami-dade county police. They do exist.

Trayvon says a friend gave them to him and declined to name the friend.

This is getting painful to watch.

TechNoFear:
As far as I am concerned a terrible law (Stand your Ground) allowed someone to kill an unarmed stranger without provoking a full police investigation.

Actually the police fucked up. They should have done more and they had the legal right to do more.

Remember Martin also had a legal right to beat Zimmerman to death for stalking him and claim self defense under Stand your Ground.

STOP. He can claim whatever the hell he wants. I can go into court after murdering a person and claim double jeopardy but that doesn't mean the judge isn't going to tell me to shut up.

Under your scenario any prosecutor would say, he was just walking around near his car. Nothing illegal about that and as for stalking well if following a person a little ways counts as stalking then every person who has ever lived in a city is guilty of stalking.

In this case unless Zimmerman was attacked first he has no ground to stand on. Also there are more than enough cases where similar things have happened and the self defense plea was thrown out. Take this case- http://www.opposingviews.com/i/oklahoma-pharmacist-who-killed-armed-robber-gets-life

In that case the man went well beyond self defense and proceeded to execute the kid. It sounds like a similar thing might have happened here. So, calm the fuck down.

That is why Stand your Ground a terrible law.

Actually is a good law that protects people from idiotic prosecution. Just like the Castle Doctrine protects people from having another Tony Martin case the Stand Your Ground Law protects innocent people.

Captcha-face the music

ravenshrike:
Aaaand there have been several important updates in the Zimmerman case.

Update numero uno - Martin was suspended for having a baggie with pot residue in it.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jPeWhNjxsBsp-YhZwMZvF7Xhr8AA?docId=69058dff0e374adbb4f01bd173921cf3

This is direct from the spokesman that the Martin family hired to talk with news agencies. So true and not made up to blacken Martin's image.

Update numero dos - Ze infamous "coons" audio. In reality he was saying punks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZLIZOM32I4&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtpgUelv0Gw

This is rather obvious when his best friend is black, and when you consider the fact that he is the captain of the neighborhood watch. And has run off teenagers before doing illegal shit. The idea that he would use the word coons over an open phone line is stupid.

Update numero tres - Aaand this is the biggie.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-trayvon-martin-new-black-panthers-protest-20120324,0,1231157.story

The New Black Panthers(you may remember them from when they violated federal election laws and threatened voters in the 2008 elections but charges were quashed by the Holder justice dept., causing an attorney in Justice to resign over the issue) have officially put a $10,000 bounty on Zimmerman's head. This violates federal kidnapping laws six ways from Sunday, but it is likely the Holder Justice dept. will once again decline to press charges.

I dont se what most of this has to do with the actual case. Its just the opposite side of the media storm which is expected when the lefties came in guns blazing on the quasi legitimate race issue.

None of this stuff belays the fact that when he was killed he had no known criminal charges, no weapons or drugs on him and no evidence that he actually started the fight. The only solid evidence is that he initially RAN from Zimmerman and that sometime after the phone call a fight ensued. 1 witness says Zimmerman was the one screaming for help, others tell varied stories. The only story we have of how things started is Zimmerman's which cannot be taken for fact.

A full investigation needs to be launched, which is the biggest injustice here. But lets not throw erroneous info out as if it completely clears the whole situation up.

feeqmatic:
I dont se what most of this has to do with the actual case.

The first and third definitely don't, the second only impacts any potential racial implications of the case. The third is thoroughly irrelevant (as opposed to the first, which is simply irrelevant), so I'm really not sure what makes that "the biggie." I'll let the guy who posted it answer that.

Tyler Perry:
They were guilty of nothing other than Standing While Black.

Is this to be taken as a serious comment? You really believe they were just a couple of Black guys who were minding their own business?

That is an insult to actual Black Americans who are harassed/arrested for nothing more than having a dark complexion.

Volf:

Tyler Perry:
They were guilty of nothing other than Standing While Black.

Is this to be taken as a serious comment? You really believe they were just a couple of Black guys who were minding their own business?

That is an insult to actual Black Americans who are harassed/arrested for nothing more than having a dark complexion.

I think they were there attempting to keep on eye on any potential voting irregularities, to call out any cases (real or perceived) of racial bias they saw at the polling places. I highly doubt their presence there was beneficial or warranted, but to claim they were intimidating voters simply by standing there is a bit much.

Tyler Perry:

Volf:

Tyler Perry:
They were guilty of nothing other than Standing While Black.

Is this to be taken as a serious comment? You really believe they were just a couple of Black guys who were minding their own business?

That is an insult to actual Black Americans who are harassed/arrested for nothing more than having a dark complexion.

I think they were there attempting to keep on eye on any potential voting irregularities, to call out any cases (real or perceived) of racial bias they saw at the polling places. I highly doubt their presence there was beneficial or warranted, but to claim they were intimidating voters simply by standing there is a bit much.

First off, I never said whether or not anybody benefited from the men being there, I stated that they were not arrest for being Black, like you claimed.
Second off, you know what, I realize that you and I may disagree on certain politically aspects given that I'm political moderate and (I assume) you are liberal, but I really can't believe what you just typed. It is appalling that you are trying to defend what these men were doing. In the other thread, you were very vocal about how Zimmerman is not a police officer and how he should not have acted as if he was one, but now your trying to defend the actions of these men? Are you serious? I could give you the benefit of the doubt if the men were just standing there next to the side of the building, but they weren't. They were standing in the front of the building with one of the men clearly holding a weapon in his hand(the person filming the video even comments on how the weapon is intimidating). It isn't a bit much to assume that an organization that has a well known cases of advocating violence is standing in front of a building for voting with a weapon in one of the members hands.

Volf:
First off, I never said whether or not anybody benefited from the men being there, I stated that they were not arrest for being Black, like you claimed.

So what crime did they commit?

Volf:
Second off, you know what, I realize that you and I may disagree on certain politically aspects given that I'm political moderate and (I assume) you are liberal, but I really can't believe what you just typed. It is appalling that you are trying to defend what these men were doing.

I didn't defend what they were doing. I already said that their presence there wasn't beneficial or warranted. Don't put words in my mouth.

Volf:
In the other thread, you were very vocal about how Zimmerman is not a police officer and how he should not have acted as if he was one, but now your trying to defend the actions of these men? Are you serious?

I didn't defend what they were doing. I already said that their presence there wasn't beneficial or warranted. Don't put words in my mouth.

Volf:
I could give you the benefit of the doubt if the men were just standing there next to the side of the building, but they weren't. They were standing in the front of the building with one of the men clearly holding a weapon in his hand(the person filming the video even comments on how the weapon is intimidating).

And what exactly was he going to do? Should people who open carry where it is legal now be arrested on grounds of "intimidation"?

Volf:
It isn't a bit much to assume that an organization that has a well known cases of advocating violence is standing in front of a building for voting with a weapon in one of the members hands.

Irrelevant video is irrelevant. If they were white Klan members standing outside a polling area, should they be arrested simply for being there, because the Klan has advocated violence?

I don't think the NBP is a particularly good organization -- their behavior in the Trayvon Martin case is nothing short of appalling, what with putting a $10K bounty on George Zimmerman's capture -- however, that doesn't mean that simply standing there at a polling station is grounds for arrest.

Tyler Perry:

Volf:

Tyler Perry:
They were guilty of nothing other than Standing While Black.

Is this to be taken as a serious comment? You really believe they were just a couple of Black guys who were minding their own business?

That is an insult to actual Black Americans who are harassed/arrested for nothing more than having a dark complexion.

I think they were there attempting to keep on eye on any potential voting irregularities, to call out any cases (real or perceived) of racial bias they saw at the polling places. I highly doubt their presence there was beneficial or warranted, but to claim they were intimidating voters simply by standing there is a bit much.

Oh come on now. If they had just been standing there they would not have been intimidating. But the guy was shaking a billyclub. I don't care who you are if you are standing there shaking a stick in your hand like that, I would be afraid to turn my back on you. It was the damn stick that was intimidating, not them standing there. I've seen another guy standing there with a bat shaking it the same way right before he took a swing at a guy, the way he was holding the stick is what is scary, not anything else. I grew up in the grove. When someone is shaking a stick, it means they intend to use it. Where I come from that is translated into: " you come over here and mess with me imma beat you down like the dog who stole the tv guide."

If a guy is on one side of the street shaking a stick, I am sure as hell not going over there to see why.

farson135:
Actually the police fucked up. They should have done more and they had the legal right to do more.

The police handcuffed Zimmerman, gave him first aid, took him to the station and had him interviewed by more senior officer.

My understanding is that the police do not lay charges, the prosecutor decides that. Is that not correct?

If so, what else could the police have done?

farson135:
STOP. He can claim whatever the hell he wants.

Martin is dead, so I do not think Martin can claim anything.

You are saying if you are followed at night, and fear for your safety, you can not 'stand your ground' and confront your stalker.

That is clearly not the intent or application of 'Stand your ground', which states;

"A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

Martin meets all the above criteria, Martin's phone call to his girl friend demonstrates Martin's concern that Zimmerman meant him harm, so Martin could have legally killed Zimmerman in self defense, even before Zimmerman acted.

In this case it appears that the only reason Martin is dead is that Zimmerman was armed and Martin was not (if the reports of Martin being on top of Zimmerman and Aimmerman calling for help are correct, and if those reports are not correct then Zimmerman clearly murdered Martin.).

'

farson135:
Under your scenario any prosecutor would say, he was just walking around near his car.

Except the facts show differently, and the case law...

ie chasing an unarmed burglar more than a block and stabbing him to death?

Dismissed under 'Stand your ground'.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/21/2706789/miami-judge-stabbing-in-the-back.html

farson135:
Actually is a good law that protects people from idiotic prosecution.

Like shooting an unarmed teenager to death because he was walking home?

Lil devils x:

Tyler Perry:

Volf:
Is this to be taken as a serious comment? You really believe they were just a couple of Black guys who were minding their own business?

That is an insult to actual Black Americans who are harassed/arrested for nothing more than having a dark complexion.

I think they were there attempting to keep on eye on any potential voting irregularities, to call out any cases (real or perceived) of racial bias they saw at the polling places. I highly doubt their presence there was beneficial or warranted, but to claim they were intimidating voters simply by standing there is a bit much.

Oh come on now. If they had just been standing there they would not have been intimidating. But the guy was shaking a billyclub. I don't care who you are if you are standing there shaking a stick in your hand like that, I would be afraid to turn my back on you. It was the damn stick that was intimidating, not them standing there. I've seen another guy standing there with a bat shaking it the same way right before he took a swing at a guy, the way he was holding the stick is what is scary, not anything else. I grew up in the grove. When someone is shaking a stick, it means they intend to use it. Where I come from that is translated into: " you come over here and mess with me imma beat you down like the dog who stole the tv guide."

If a guy is on one side of the street shaking a stick, I am sure as hell not going over there to see why.

And what exactly are they supposed to be "intimidating" people from doing? Did they follow people into the voting booths and threaten to beat the shit out of them if they voted for McCain?

Tyler Perry:

So what crime did they commit?

Idk the crime, but being black wasn't it.

Tyler Perry:
I didn't defend what they were doing. I already said that their presence there wasn't beneficial or warranted. Don't put words in my mouth.

You came off sounding as if they were just minding their own business and that there was no reason to arrest them.

Tyler Perry:
And what exactly was he going to do? Should people who open carry where it is legal now be arrested on grounds of "intimidation"?

When it is in front of a voting center and it intimidates others so that they don't want to vote, then yes.

Tyler Perry:
Irrelevant video is irrelevant. If they were white Klan members standing outside a polling area, should they be arrested simply for being there, because the Klan has advocated violence?

The video helps establish that this is a group with a history of advocating violence, so them being at the front of the voting center with a billy-club is intimidating.

Yes if the kkk was in front of a voting center with weapons in their hands.

Tyler Perry:
I don't think the NBP is a particularly good organization -- their behavior in the Trayvon Martin case is nothing short of appalling, what with putting a $10K bounty on George Zimmerman's capture -- however, that doesn't mean that simply standing there at a polling station is grounds for arrest.

Except they were not just standing there, one of them had a weapon in his hand.

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