Poll: The English Defence League

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Its a small but very vocal right wing group in the UK, whats your opinion of them?

Extremely negative. They are racist xenophobes and any sympathy I might have for the ones among them who are unemployed due to immigrants, or are among them for reasons such as 'traditional English values are being eroded', is drowned out by my anger at their use of violence against innocent people.

I think that about covers it. Why do you ask?

Out of intrest,I agree with the mission statment but as you said have a terribe public record.

Amazed at the ignorance. The EDL is a single issue protest group which is against militant islam in the UK. The 'racist' word is being demeaned if you use it against a religion. It gives the impression you think all muslims are from one race. Now that really is racist.

The EDL strike me as a rabble of socially and economically disenfranchised angry working class white males who take their frustrations out on immigrants. They make a convenient scrape-goat for the problems they face on a daily basis such as unemployment, relative "poverty" and crime.

Perhaps surprisingly, patriotism can be a rallying call for any given modern societies underclass. Karl Marx described religion as "opium for the masses" because religion served as a sort of "spiritual escape" from the alienation caused by capitalism. Personally i would modify Marx's statement slightly at describe patriotism as an "opium for the masses"- it gives alienated people a sense of importance by connecting themselves to a "higher" significant form identity. The problem is that this can quite easily lead to xenophobia and racism against those who don't cohere to the stereotypical notions of "Englishness". I.e- immigrants with different customs, dress and skin colour.

I think just looking at the name English Defence League is suggested by this. The whole idea of it is to "defend" a non-multicultural, white and traditional idea of "England", and for reasons outlined above the idea of "England" is important to the underclass. There was also that viral video that went round when a news reporter interviewed an EDL member who came out with incoherent statements about how "England isn't England". Essentially the EDL's all about protecting a traditional and arguably out-dated idea of England being racially white.

Lewd Ferrigno:
Amazed at the ignorance. The EDL is a single issue protest group which is against militant islam in the UK. The 'racist' word is being demeaned if you use it against a religion. It gives the impression you think all muslims are from one race. Now that really is racist.

Except their understanding of Muslims tends to be a more roundabout way of attacking Arab and other immigrant groups while having the cover of "I'm not against brown people, I'm against their beliefs," giving them the claim of being "not racist" while essentially doing everything that racists already do.

But, yeah, they're down there below the BNP in my mind.

Haven't heard of them before, so what opinion can I make of them?

This sums it up for me.

Vocal idiots.

A load of idiotic, racist thugs who blame the fact that they can't get a job on "immigrants" and "Muslims" rather than admitting that the real reason for their failure is because they're a bunch of fucking morons who failed school as a result of being arrogant, disruptive and thick as two bricks.

In essence, they're the militant hand of the BNP, and I cordially invite them all to take a sulphuric acid enema and die.

I kind of agree with about 80% of what they say but I disagree with how they go about it. England is a country where criticising Islam in any way, shape or form will get you branded Islamaphobic and they're the only people who seem to speak out against militant Islam.

Oh and I do agree most of the members seem to have joined out of a love for beating up immigrants.

We have the Norwegian defense league here in Norway. Watched a heated discussion where a Muslim claimed they were all racists. The spokesman asked the Muslim. "So it is alright if I call all Muslims terrorists then?" Good point really.

They are trying to get rid of racist members I am told. Not sure what to make of them yet.

Scum of the earth... scum of the fucking earth...

Their concerns are common and as concerns legitimate... their ability to use reason and use logic and turn these concerns into policy to deal with the concerns are worse than Al Qaeda...

Al Qaeda can make bombs, make and sell opium, and they can even deliver speechs threataning to blow up stuff... the EDL... most can barely speak...

There are a few biggoted ring leaders playing on the fears of white trash left to rot over 2 generations by the British Educational system, Social Care system but ultimately Political system...

Muslims aren't invading the country... we just have a load of dumb shits who want a scapegoat that its Foriegners like the Eastern Europeans and the Muslims who are to blame for them not having a job instead of the fact they fucked around at school, they drink heavily when they can, they are drugged up when they can and some fathered/mothered their own siblings...

Of course this isn't all of the EDL... but its the foot troop of their supporters who are... scum of the earth.

If the head of the EDL wanted to sum up his party... he could quite happily quote Wellington.

Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington:
Ours (our army) is composed of the scum of the earth - the mere scum of the earth.

------------------------

The other British Party that is considered Rascist is the BNP (British National Party)... please don't confuse the EDL with the BNP because they are very different...
First off the BNP is trying to present itself in a legitimate light and then the BNP also isn't openly rascist but many consider it to be. The best summary is that they are very Nationalistic and that while the BNP may not be rascist they would immediately tighten the borders to foriegners who are not here on business matters in order to prevent immigration filling up the UK... they wouldn't kick people out who are residents (at least I don't think they would say publically) but they would stop anymore and throw out everyone without a UK passport...

Its better than the EDL who are street thugs at worst and morons with microphones at best who have a point but no method or policy to fix the issue...

I have only really seen them once. Recently, a mosque was built here in my hometown, and a group of xenophobes kicked up an awful row about it. Now, several xenophobic groups planned a protest-march against it, some legitimate political parties and other simply various groups of neo-nazis, to put it plainly.

So, EDL came all the way from England to "support their nordic brother's cause" or somesuch, by marching around town with openly neo-nazi groups (I believe Svenska Motståndsrörelsen, the "Swedish Resistance Movement" were amongst them, for instance). Certainly, it's their right to do so. But they've certainly shown their true colours for me, in no uncertain terms.

You can think what you like about that mosque. I think it's got no lesser rights to exist than all the churches just lying about. And if you, for some odd reason, have an issue with it and wish to protest against it, that is also your right.
But don't go marching in step together with nazis. People will judge you based on your actions, and that was either really lacking in good judgment of the EDL or they honestly don't mind nazism very much. Either is reason to dislike them.

Just some bunch of lower class uneducated idiots who can't understand society and the news, such as the transition of industrial to service economy leaving the unskilled labourers without a job, so they pick a scapegoat and blame it for whatever they think is wrong.

It's even in good scapegoating tradition to pick a group of religious enemies in the form of the Muslims.

Well, Christopher Hitchens is cool on criticising extremist religion whether that be islamic or Christian.

And I know enough about Buddhism - living in Japan - to know that even the "nice" religion of buddhism has extremist and nasty elements.

The problem with the EDL is that they are selective rather than principled on what religious extremism they despise and, more importantly, they are based on football hooligan networks. That's why most of their members are complete nuckle draggers.

I support anti-religious-extremism btw, but the EDL are horrible in their composition, their message and their motivation.

Better to support and join the British Humanist Foundation if you are "really" against religious extremism and not just milking it for racist and thuggish reasons.

Regards

Nightspore

I haven't heard too much of them. From what I have heard though, they are a bunch of crazy thugs who just want to attack anyone who looks foriegn. I kinda agree with some of their beliefs mainly that Islam is going a bit crazy over here but they are pretty much just thugs.

Ok for people who have just seen the thread, they can be seen as two things both as militant wings. The first is a facebook group with a militant wing or second as the militant wing of BFP, British Freedom Party who are a splinter group of the BNP, British National party.

They suck.

That's pretty much all I have to say. They're just racists, really.
It's just a bunch of angry white guys who just want to blame someone.

And they aren't achieving anything other than making us all look dumb, they say we should deport people, but we know what they mean. This stupid `Britain for British` is just bollocks, there are people here who are not white, but still British and I think that concept blows their tiny minds.

For example, if you wanted to go far enough back to deport some of the people I went to school with, you'd have to deport me too. (My great-great grandparents were Irish and Polish on the other side I think). Which is just balls-to-the-walls nutty.

Basically we've been invaded so much nobody's really true British if you go far back enough, imo.

Yeah...you stick both "defence" and "league" in your name, I am going to make assumptions about you. May as well say "marriage", "family" or "values".

Yeah, I'd just write "scum" and leave it at that, but if you want a more substantial argument, look at some of Richard Coughlan's videos on YouTube. Behind the swearing and yelling, there are a lot of proper arguments and substantial backing for his dislike, which I mostly happen to agree to.

As as organisation, I think the EDL is a natural and perhaps even desirable reaction to a) over-immigration and b) the actions of certain immigrant groups (the bearded loons who saw fit to burn poppies and shout Islamic propaganda during the two-minute silence of Remeberance Day spring to mind). I think that immigration shouldn't go unchecked, and also that rapid cultural change shouldn't go unexamined or unchallenged.

But, from what I've seen of their supporters? Classless chav scum to a man, moronic slogan-chanting monosyllabates, the likes of whom are the reason I don't drink in pubs during the World Cup. These guys are lager-swilling, white-van-driving pricks who would think The Sun was a bit too poofy and left-wing if only they could read. The average bloke who publically supports the EDL has barely more brain cells than he has teeth, and for a lot of these unhygenic scum that's not saying much.

The EDL are either:

1) Racists trying to make themselves more palatable by working under a more socially acceptable banner of nationalism and traditionalism.
2) A nationalist and traditionalist organisation that happens to be heavily composed of racists.

To be more sympathetic, they are a working class movement who are probably suffering insecurities about social, political and economic weakness in a rapidly changing world that they feel has abandoned or betrayed them. They express those insecurities by scapegoating the easiest and most visible symbol of change and difference from themselves: people of other cultures and skin colours.

Olie Warr:
Its a small but very vocal right wing group in the UK, whats your opinion of them?

My opinon of them is that they are a very left wing group in the UK.

The right wing version being the National Front.

Anyway scarey people, best avoided.

Joshey Woshey:
I kind of agree with about 80% of what they say but I disagree with how they go about it. England is a country where criticising Islam in any way, shape or form will get you branded Islamaphobic and they're the only people who seem to speak out against militant Islam.

Oh and I do agree most of the members seem to have joined out of a love for beating up immigrants.

Yes, the only people. Well, apart from:

The Muslim Council of Britain.
Pundits on news or current affairs TV shows.
Regular muslims being interviewed on aforementioned shows.
Opinion pieces from regular columnists in several national newspapers.
MPs in Parliament and in campaign literature.
Every third retard in every pub across the land, seven nights a week.
Every third blogotard on the right-wing internet.

There are plenty of people speaking out about militant islam, and quite a few of them who criticise islam for the sake of it, so I question why you would "kind of agree" with a group of violent racist thugs due to a deficit of critique which simply doesn't exist.

Baff:

Olie Warr:
Its a small but very vocal right wing group in the UK, whats your opinion of them?

My opinon of them is that they are a very left wing group in the UK.

The right wing version being the National Front.

Anyway scarey people, best avoided.

That would be the National Front which is a largely defunct organisation who's leadership and membership have been absorbed into the BNP and EDL, or imprisoned? Left wing my fat hairy arsecheek. Thanks though, at least this post has conclusively proven that you're just here to troll, I can ignore you without worrying I'm missing any interesting opposing points of view now.

Magichead:
There are plenty of people speaking out about militant islam, and quite a few of them who criticise islam for the sake of it, so I question why you would "kind of agree" with a group of violent racist thugs due to a deficit of critique which simply doesn't exist.

Except most of those are just apologists, who busy themselves pretending religious violence just came falling from the sky for no reason, and is in no way related to the integration problems with immigrants and religious etxremists.

Groups like the EDL are a response to there being nothing that accurately voices what they feel. If some store owner had his windows broken 26 times in 2 years by a gang of Muslims youths who busy themselves hanging around and shouting whore at female passerbys without veils, he doesn't want to hear some 'council' blabbering about how nice Islam is and how what he saw with his own eyes never happens.

I've seen it happen also, some lobbyist harping on about how the problems are overstates. That kind of means nothing to you if last saturday you had to fight like a madmen to avoid some Muslim gang murdering your friend by cowardly kicking him while down. Worse yet, acting like that is perceived more as an insult than a solution, and it drives people to accept more xenophobic attitudes in response. Where I'm from, you had kids suddenly deciding they were neonazis over that sort of stuff.

Next village, there was a veritable reign of terror of one such gang that controlled an entire shopping centre because police refused to do anything, as well as plenty violence when going out. Unsurprisingly, a mosque situated along the route between the only two clubs and the main residential district was torched 4 times in a row. I followed the local news there, and at some point a rape victim won a procedure to force prosecution (the charges had, astonishingly, been dropped despite the evidence being massive) and that put two group members in prison for years. Another got shot in Amsterdam while dealing drugs, two others got a job and apparently the last is currently incarcerated in Morocco.

I've seen them myself a few times, and those guys were crazy. They were literally sitting around waiting for trouble. They instantly picked a fight when they noticed my lack of submissive attitude for instance.

Guess what? Since that group fell apart There's not been a single arson attempt or other racist incident that I'm aware of in said village since that time, and that was 2004. Actually doing something about the problems is the only way possible to combat groups like the EDL forming.

Magichead:

Baff:

Olie Warr:
Its a small but very vocal right wing group in the UK, whats your opinion of them?

My opinon of them is that they are a very left wing group in the UK.

The right wing version being the National Front.

Anyway scarey people, best avoided.

That would be the National Front which is a largely defunct organisation who's leadership and membership have been absorbed into the BNP and EDL, or imprisoned? Left wing my fat hairy arsecheek. Thanks though, at least this post has conclusively proven that you're just here to troll, I can ignore you without worrying I'm missing any interesting opposing points of view now.

Please ignore me all you like.
It should not be lost on you that the most famously extremist xenophobic, racist and thuggish party in history was the National Socialist party.

The EDL is left wing. As were the Nazi's.
That's not to say you can't find xenophobic, racist, right wing political groups, you can. The National Front is good example.

It's shame really that you are unable to accept correction without throwing your toys out of the pram and crying troll everytime you read a comment that disagree's with your own opinion on a public forum designed as place where opinions may be freely exchanged.

Were you an only child?

**Edit**(Perhaps "were" is not the correct tense to choose).

Magichead:
Yes, the only people. Well, apart from:

The Muslim Council of Britain.
Pundits on news or current affairs TV shows.
Regular muslims being interviewed on aforementioned shows.
Opinion pieces from regular columnists in several national newspapers.
MPs in Parliament and in campaign literature.
Every third retard in every pub across the land, seven nights a week.
Every third blogotard on the right-wing internet.

There are plenty of people speaking out about militant islam, and quite a few of them who criticise islam for the sake of it, so I question why you would "kind of agree" with a group of violent racist thugs due to a deficit of critique which simply doesn't exist.

Quite.

That said, I think in some matters there's actually still a tendency to go easier on white British. I'd class the EDL along with Islam4UK, a violent extremist group, and they got banned outright, while the EDL still exists.

And relating them to the BNP strikes me as oversimplistic.

For one thing, they're diametrically opposed on the matter of Israel. BNP has a holocaust denier as its leader, but the EDL wouldn't put up for that. They have a Jewish wing, iirc.

Blablahb:
[snip]

The Netherlands is not the UK.

The UK has no relative problem with gangs of Muslim youths. Which is to say they exist and they're trouble for their area, which certainly causes considerable local friction. However, they're not worse or more prevalent than gangs of any other particular grouping.

It's especially ironic to defend the EDL as if they are some sort of victim support group, given they have a substantial root in football hooligan gangs internationally famous for routine, unprovoked vandalism and violence. Particularly against racial minorities and foreigners. But hey, you want to pander to some of the worst thugs in the country just because they tickle your anti-Islamic sweet spot, feel free.

How bad is it that when you said English Defense League the first thing I thought was that this is going to be about grammar nazis XD

I have no idea about them, as I'm in America not England but from what I've gathered in this thread they're basically English Rednecks?

Agema:

Blablahb:
[snip]

The Netherlands is not the UK.

The UK has no relative problem with gangs of Muslim youths. Which is to say they exist and they're trouble for their area, which certainly causes considerable local friction. However, they're not worse or more prevalent than gangs of any other particular grouping.

It's especially ironic to defend the EDL as if they are some sort of victim support group, given they have a substantial root in football hooligan gangs internationally famous for routine, unprovoked vandalism and violence. Particularly against racial minorities and foreigners. But hey, you want to pander to some of the worst thugs in the country just because they tickle your anti-Islamic sweet spot, feel free.

i'm pretty sure i read somewhere that the EDL and the main Muslim group that's responsible for most of the headlines come from the same area and the leaders of both were schoolmates...well not mates obviously...

i disagree with your earlier "are either" statement btw. you are giving them too much intellectual credit. imo most of these things are just an excuse for indulging violent behaviour and hate in a supportive atmosphere. they're not a million miles away from the football "casuals" or the orange lodge and affiliates or, as you say, loads of other "gangs". the fact the EDLs founders hail from the football "casuals" kinda flags this.

i very doubt the politics of it matters all that much which is probably why the "rank and file" are so pish at articulating it.

Baff:

Please ignore me all you like.
It should not be lost on you that the most famously extremist xenophobic, racist and thuggish party in history was the National Socialist party.

I thought we'd discussed this fallacy a few days ago. You remember, when you tried to say "National Insurance" has to be insurance because it's got "Insurance" in the name.

Socialism is a system which looks towards putting ownership of the means of production into the hands of the workers. Given the Nazi's spectacular failure to do anything more than give workers anything more than slightly better work conditions (unless, of course, they were Jewish workers), it's hard to meaningfully describe the Nazis as socialist at all.

The EDL is left wing. As were the Nazi's.

"Right wing" is traditionally defined by concepts of social hierarchy and conservatism. So the Nazis were by such analysis very, very right wing. To redefine "right wing" as capitalist as is popular these days (although historically very inaccurate), the Nazis were pretty centreist. The EDL are clearly nothing like as right wing as the Nazis were, but I'm not sure they can adequately be called left wing either.

Agema:

Baff:

Please ignore me all you like.
It should not be lost on you that the most famously extremist xenophobic, racist and thuggish party in history was the National Socialist party.

I thought we'd discussed this fallacy a few days ago. You remember, when you tried to say "National Insurance" has to be insurance because it's got "Insurance" in the name.

It's a fun bit of logic isn't it?

We can all stop fretting over North Korea now, apparently it's a democratic republic ^_^

Agema:
The Netherlands is not the UK.
The UK has no relative problem with gangs of Muslim youths. Which is to say they exist and they're trouble for their area, which certainly causes considerable local friction. However, they're not worse or more prevalent than gangs of any other particular grouping.

Really? Then how come newspapers get to make headlines like this one and the values are clearly spilling over into criminals as well? Google turns up even more examples of Islamic gangs, particularly Pakistani ones. Quite amazing considering the different background of immigrants to the UK generally have.

Also very very cheap shot attacking me personally with the tiresome racism card. Apparently I was not only completely correct, but also struck a nerve somewhere. Do you honestly have nothing better than to just claim anyone is a racist if he criticises something you don't allow criticism on?

You're citing the "WILL WORK-SHY HOODIES GIVE BRITAIN'S PENSIONERS CANCER?" Daily Mail as a source? Really?

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