How can these idiots justify the murder of Trayvon Martin...........

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feeqmatic:

JSF01:
All I can do is just shake my headand sigh. SO many people have made a judgement on some one based off of an incorect initial story, and while more and more facts come out showing that wat they herd originally incorrect they continue still treat the situation as if the originally story was correct. As of what we know right now by physical evidence and wittnesses at the very least Martian had knocked Zimmerman down and was banging his head against the ground, while Zimmerman was crying for help. Based on that information this being a case of self defence is very possible.

Now For those of you saying that if zimmerman had just stayed in the car none of this would have happened, sure it probably would not have happened. But getting out of your car is not a crime, nor was he confronting Martian, just following. It was Martian that initiated contact between the two of them. So in reality you can say the same thing about Martian, If martian had not gone back and confronted Zimmerman none of this would have happened either. Now that is also not illegal so there was nothing wrong with him doing it. To lay the blame on Zimmerman for getting out of the car is like saying, it's a womans fault for being raped because she was wearing a short skirt.

Now I am not saying Martian is at fault for his own death nor am I saying Zimmerman is Guilty. It all comes down to who started the fight that every one knows that happened. If it was Zimmerman than martian would not havebeen shoot in self defence, so therefore he is guilty of murder. If it was Martian that started it than Zimmerman acted in self defence and is not guilty of a crime. We do not have all the information on this caase so we can only ait and see. Any one making a judgement, on this case without all the facts is an idiot.

you are also basing your opinion off of faulty information. No witness have stated that they saw Martin attack Zimmerman, only that it was Zimmerman on the ground screaming. No witnesses have actually seen how the altercation started. The story of Martin punching zimmerman first comes from zimmerman's mouth. Slanted news sources (retaliating from the opposite slant) are irresponsibly reporting that Martin Attacked Zimmerman and people are eating it up without actually reading what is said.

Read one of my previous posts to get the facts down, but the concrete evidence clearly shows Zimmerman as the early aggressor by leaving the safety of his car to go after a fleeing Martin. There are also several conflicts with Zimmerman's story and the phone records of Martin's gf phone call, and the actual place where the body is found. At the end of the day you are right in saying that the justice system will have to weigh things out, which is also one of the biggest issues. Much of the evidence that could have been collected was lost because the police didnt bother to launch a full investigation until last week.

I am not basing my opinion on faulty information, you are just misreading what I said. I even stated it all depends on who started the fight and that right now nobody knows. I simply stated that witnesses saw Martian attacking Zimerman not that Martian started it. In a fight if you are not defending you are attacking. Zimerman being on the ground yelling for help with Martain on to hitting him means at that point Martian was not defending but attacking. Think of a fight in terms of sports the home team is considered the overall defenders wether or not they are on offense or not, durring certain parts of the game. Now if you came across a game but did not know who the overall defenders are you can only describe them as who is currently on offense and who is on deffense in this case Wittnesses saw Martain on the offense which since this was a fight is called attacking, even if overall he was just defending himself.

JSF01:
I am not basing my opinion on faulty information, you are just misreading what I said. I even stated it all depends on who started the fight and that right now nobody knows. I simply stated that witnesses saw Martian attacking Zimerman not that Martian started it. In a fight if you are not defending you are attacking. Zimerman being on the ground yelling for help with Martain on to hitting him means at that point Martian was not defending but attacking. Think of a fight in terms of sports the home team is considered the overall defenders wether or not they are on offense or not, durring certain parts of the game. Now if you came across a game but did not know who the overall defenders are you can only describe them as who is currently on offense and who is on deffense in this case Wittnesses saw Martain on the offense which since this was a fight is called attacking, even if overall he was just defending himself.

That's really just arguing semantics. Under this reasoning Zimmerman was the final attacker in the confrontation when he pulled the trigger.

The key aspect of this has to be who during the confrontation had the right to self defense. Zimmerman's action peg him as the initial aggressor since a reasonable person would interpret his actions as a threat (ie following someone at night and then running after him). If Martin lashed out at this threat it does not give Zimmerman the right to self defense since he was the aggressor. If during the fight Martin tried to kill Zimmerman then Zimmerman might have a claim for self defense but he would really have to prove that Martin posed a real threat to his life.

Nielas:

That's really just arguing semantics. Under this reasoning Zimmerman was the final attacker in the confrontation when he pulled the trigger.

The key aspect of this has to be who during the confrontation had the right to self defense. Zimmerman's action peg him as the initial aggressor since a reasonable person would interpret his actions as a threat (ie following someone at night and then running after him). If Martin lashed out at this threat it does not give Zimmerman the right to self defense since he was the aggressor. If during the fight Martin tried to kill Zimmerman then Zimmerman might have a claim for self defense but he would really have to prove that Martin posed a real threat to his life.

Under this reasoning the pulling the triger was a defensive move to stop the attack. If on the other hand Zimerman shot Martian once wounding him and Martian stopped attacking, than Zimmerman continued to shoot at Martain then that would be attacking.

Being folowed or even chased in a public place is not enough to justify attacking someone, You can not claim self defense at that point since there was not a threat of bodily harm. So it all comes down to when they finally confronted each other who threw the first punch (or shove, or other physical contact).

Also for your information having your head bashed against the ground is considered a real threat against your life.

I wonder if we're eventually going to decide what defines "suspicious," and how thuggish this guy had to look to simply assume that the right thing to do would be to follow him around in a car and then get out of the car to confront him. I don't know about anyone else here but if I was minding my own business, noticed a car following me, then saw a guy get out of the car with the clear intent of following me, I probably wouldn't be a cool customer myself, especially if I didn't have anything on me and this guy had a gun. If the claim is that you can do everything someone intending on hunting someone down and killing or kidnapping them would do save for the actual attack, but if that person interprets your activity as threatening and throws the first punch, you have the legal right to kill them, then you effectively legalized murder as long as you give the victim a free swing first.

Plus, another thing I just don't get; how is a person suspicious enough to follow around and pursue on foot, but not threatening enough to not follow and avoid getting out of the car? If this guy looked like fucking Omar Little coming around the bend, wouldn't you stay the fuck out of his way? Zimmerman's hardly a physical specimen, and he clearly hasn't been in enough real confrontations to know how to pick his battles if he either beat up and shot a kid because fuck it or got his ass kicked by a kid he was following and shot because he thought his life was in danger. There's absolutely no way to reason that he had any business getting involved; even if you buy that the kid threw the first punch Zimmerman was asking for a whupping for creating and escalating a situation he had no control over and no business starting in the first place. Is being too damn dumb to know what he was doing a criminal defense?

Comando96:
We still think... why the fuck do you have handguns? Why are you allowed to carry them around?

You realize that the ability to own and carry a pistol for a civilian is not limited to the US right? In fact many countries in the EU allow it. If anything y'all are the weird ones. Pistol shooting is an Olympic event that had to get special permission from your government in order to hold it. Not even China is as strict about handgun ownership as y'all are.

Why the fuck can you kill someone and then not be detained?

He was.

Over here if you kill someone in self defence you are arrested too so that you can be questioned and while the case is gathered together you are in a controlled environment which is normal for investigating a case.

That happened. He was interrogated.

If he was arrested in the first place as a matter of due course then the evidence could have been gathered fully and after evaluating everything they could let him go or get ready to prosecute him...

Actually the big problem is that the police fucked up and did not do their jobs correctly.

What it appears to have happened was black kid was shot and white guy was let go free... thats a broken legal process or maybe even rascist as they assumed the black guy was guilty of something. This could have all been avoided if he was arrested and then a day later released and cleared (or not if there is evidence against).

First of all Hispanic. Second of all the police screwed up.

I've had various problems through life and have been suicidal at points.................. but if someone pulled a gun at me at close quarters then I'd fucking struggle as the gun is not then a deterrant but an active weapon which's purpose is to put high speed metal into the thing infront of the barrel... and I'd try make sure that it was not pointing at me.

The point is that this was close enough to actually grab the gun. Try reaching out and see how far you can effectively grab something. That shows that this was extreme close range (close enough that I would not have even drawn) which means that Zimmerman's story about Martin attacking him has some validity (assuming the gun did not just malfunction).

Stop and listen to yourself for a fucking second... if the gun was pulled out at range then it would have been a deterrant but at close quarters its a death sentence to the other guy...

Negative. There is still more than enough time for disengagement. In addition guns shots at extreme close ranges are far less effective than short and medium ranges.

Its why you should always go for joints and intend to break them in fight. Cut the crap and disable them from combat.

Hard to do while on your back. I could do it but I highly doubt that Zimmerman has my level of training.

Nielas:

That's really just arguing semantics. Under this reasoning Zimmerman was the final attacker in the confrontation when he pulled the trigger.

The key aspect of this has to be who during the confrontation had the right to self defense. Zimmerman's action peg him as the initial aggressor since a reasonable person would interpret his actions as a threat (ie following someone at night and then running after him). If Martin lashed out at this threat it does not give Zimmerman the right to self defense since he was the aggressor. If during the fight Martin tried to kill Zimmerman then Zimmerman might have a claim for self defense but he would really have to prove that Martin posed a real threat to his life.

We don't even know if Zimmerman pulled the trigger. An entirely possible, although not necessarily plausible situation might involve martin seeing the gun and grabbing for it, Zimmerman gets a hand in, a struggle ensues over the thing, and the gun goes off, by pure luck while aimed at Martin.

educatedfool:

xDarc:

Tyler Perry:

Ah, so he was found with it in a completely separate incident. In other words, it's irrelevant to the case at hand.

Not really. I think by now everyone knows this:

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

But people still insist zimmerman should not have gotten out of his truck to confront someone unknown to the neighborhood, acting suspiciously. Zimmerman had every right to confront someone acting suspiciously, and these facts lend credence that Martin was not squeaky clean, and may have not just been casually strolling along with a pocket full of skittles. He may have been up to something.

The autopsy will show martin attacked zimmerman, by trajectory, bruising to fists, and it will show he had his hand on the gun when it was fired. It wont be released for another three weeks.

But people still say well zimmerman shouldnt have gotten out of the truck? WTF line of thinking is this? That it's his fault and not Martin's for attacking him?

If I was being followed by a racist, paranoid, woman beating shitcunt I would turn around and attempt to beat the living fuck out of him.

Linking posts to the previous history of the victim, what the fuck is wrong with you? Do you have any idea of anything? That stuff ONLY matters if he has done something wrong and they need to investigate prior convictions.

You also neglected to point out the history of Mr Zimmerman.

Stop posting.

If it didn't matter than Zimmerman's history wouldn't matter either. Besides which his friend, who is black, came on TV and said George is not a racist. If you were roped into think he used a slur in the 911 call, you're wrong.

I think it's absolutely relevant when there's evidence that shows the victim was caught with a screwdriver with a large flat head and 12 pieces of jewlery in his backpack 5 months before someone decided to follow him for acting suspicuous. It's a hell of a lot more than you know besides the tea and skittles stuff the media is force feeding you all.

Some people are posting that this kid died pleading for his life, when from the witnesses it seems that he decided to beat the shit out of zimmerman and they fought over the gun- it sounds like he gave zimmerman no choice. So then they fall back on, well he shouldnt have gotten out of his truck- to which I say, bullshit. If Martin didn't jump him, he'd be alive.

"We don't need you to do that" is not a lawful order, so the crux of this whole thing lies on what Martin was doing to appear suspicious or was it racial profiling... so is there a chance a kid who was caught with women's jewelery and a screwdriver in his backpack at school 5 months before was up to something?

If another witness comes out confirming what Martin was doing to draw Zimmerman's attention in the first place, this whole thing is sunk and you will all feel stupid for having bought into the innocent kid with skittles nonsense. Because they can already clearly prove Martin is the aggressor or zimmerman absolutely would be jail. The autopsy hasn't been released because there is a grand jury coming and its sealed until then. It convenes April 19th, that gives the media another 3 weeks to milk this for all it is worth and set back race relations to the 1960s for ratings.

xDarc:
If it didn't matter than Zimmerman's history wouldn't matter either. Besides which his friend, who is black, came on TV and said George is not a racist. If you were roped into think he used a slur in the 911 call, you're wrong.

Zimmerman's criminal history matters because Zimmerman is the one suspected of a crime.

xDarc:
I think it's absolutely relevant when there's evidence that shows the victim was caught with a screwdriver with a large flat head and 12 pieces of jewlery in his backpack 5 months before someone decided to follow him for acting suspicuous. It's a hell of a lot more than you know besides the tea and skittles stuff the media is force feeding you all.

Unless stolen property was found on Martin's body it's completely irrelevant. He wasn't committing a crime at the time of his death.

xDarc:
"We don't need you to do that" is not a lawful order, so the crux of this whole thing lies on what Martin was doing to appear suspicious or was it racial profiling... so is there a chance a kid who was caught with women's jewelery and a screwdriver in his backpack at school 5 months before was up to something?

That's an irrelevant question because Zimmermann had no way of knowing Martin' disciplinary history.

xDarc:

educatedfool:

xDarc:

Not really. I think by now everyone knows this:

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

But people still insist zimmerman should not have gotten out of his truck to confront someone unknown to the neighborhood, acting suspiciously. Zimmerman had every right to confront someone acting suspiciously, and these facts lend credence that Martin was not squeaky clean, and may have not just been casually strolling along with a pocket full of skittles. He may have been up to something.

The autopsy will show martin attacked zimmerman, by trajectory, bruising to fists, and it will show he had his hand on the gun when it was fired. It wont be released for another three weeks.

But people still say well zimmerman shouldnt have gotten out of the truck? WTF line of thinking is this? That it's his fault and not Martin's for attacking him?

If I was being followed by a racist, paranoid, woman beating shitcunt I would turn around and attempt to beat the living fuck out of him.

Linking posts to the previous history of the victim, what the fuck is wrong with you? Do you have any idea of anything? That stuff ONLY matters if he has done something wrong and they need to investigate prior convictions.

You also neglected to point out the history of Mr Zimmerman.

Stop posting.

If it didn't matter than Zimmerman's history wouldn't matter either. Besides which his friend, who is black, came on TV and said George is not a racist. If you were roped into think he used a slur in the 911 call, you're wrong.

I think it's absolutely relevant when there's evidence that shows the victim was caught with a screwdriver with a large flat head and 12 pieces of jewlery in his backpack 5 months before someone decided to follow him for acting suspicuous. It's a hell of a lot more than you know besides the tea and skittles stuff the media is force feeding you all.

Some people are posting that this kid died pleading for his life, when from the witnesses it seems that he decided to beat the shit out of zimmerman and they fought over the gun- it sounds like he gave zimmerman no choice. So then they fall back on, well he shouldnt have gotten out of his truck- to which I say, bullshit. If Martin didn't jump him, he'd be alive.

"We don't need you to do that" is not a lawful order, so the crux of this whole thing lies on what Martin was doing to appear suspicious or was it racial profiling... so is there a chance a kid who was caught with women's jewelery and a screwdriver in his backpack at school 5 months before was up to something?

If another witness comes out confirming what Martin was doing to draw Zimmerman's attention in the first place, this whole thing is sunk and you will all feel stupid for having bought into the innocent kid with skittles nonsense. Because they can already clearly prove Martin is the aggressor or zimmerman absolutely would be jail. The autopsy hasn't been released because there is a grand jury coming and its sealed until then. It convenes April 19th, that gives the media another 3 weeks to milk this for all it is worth and set back race relations to the 1960s for ratings.

Ive already responded to you nonsense once, maybe you missed it. but ill just say if you are REALLY interested in the truth, then you shouldnt be so willfully ignoring major elements of evidence that dont fit the story you so badly want to maintain as the likely case.

Such as - the gf phone call, the place of the body vs. the place where Zimmerman was attacked, the irrelevancy of the victims (nonexistent btw) criminal background, the witness reports that dont fit Zimmermans story, the reality behind how self defense works in american courts, etc.

By you continuously ignoring or omitting these facts it makes it easy to deem you... well you know. So until you want to stop cherry picking im just going to suggest that everyone else ignore you in this thread.

PrinceOfShapeir:
Why do we allow it? Because criminals don't buy their guns from legitimate sources. Ban guns, and you don't stop gun crime, you just make sure the criminals know that the people they're targeting are helpless.

Funny, I live in a country (Australia) that has banned guns for a long time, yet we're not suddenly vunerable to having our houses invaded by people who have guns, because guns are illegal. Gaining access to a gun is harder than you assume, so most people who go through the effort don't waste it on robbing houses, especially since bringing a gun to a crime would up the sentance you'd recieve if caught.

Ban guns, and go after those who have them and those who supply them. Not a difficult concept.

Heronblade:
We have a hispanic man who people keep calling white, possibly for the extra "he's racist!11!!!" impact.

Slight correction, but Zimmerman was half white and half Latino, although the 'Latino' part seems to be largely ignored.

You know, we just don't know for sure what happened that night. For all we know, he could have attacked Zimmerman unprovoked and out of the blue. But the evidence currently available seems to strongly indicate that this was not the case. It is preposterous that Zimmerman hasn't yet been placed under arrest.

As for the "stand your ground" law that people seem to be blaming, it is the mind-bogglingly skewed misrepresentation of the law that is the problem here, not the law itself. I am a huge advocate for gun ownership and self defense, and from the evidence I've seen the only person defending themself was Trayvon Martin.

Zimmerman was armed and stalking him, in direct defiance of the 911 operator telling him not to follow Martin. Those facts indicate a strong likelihood that Zimmerman was the clear antagonist, and any potential violent action from Martin was justified self defense.

xDarc:
But people still insist zimmerman should not have gotten out of his truck to confront someone unknown to the neighborhood, acting suspiciously. Zimmerman had every right to confront someone acting suspiciously,

Have the right? Sure. Literally anyone could tell you that it would be a bad fucking idea, though. And would Trayvon not have the same right? The right to confront an armed man who was stalking him? (Far more suspicious, I might add, than the mere act of walking down the street.) Again, I'm not saying that confronting an armed man who has been stalking you is a good idea, but if that is indeed what happened then Trayvon had every reason to feel threatened and indeed fear for his life.

Vuljatar:

xDarc:
But people still insist zimmerman should not have gotten out of his truck to confront someone unknown to the neighborhood, acting suspiciously. Zimmerman had every right to confront someone acting suspiciously,

Have the right? Sure. Literally anyone could tell you that it would be a bad fucking idea, though.

Yeah, because you might get jumped by a man sized teenager who pounds your head into the ground and you'll have to shoot him. He will later be made out to appear no older than 12 and doing nothing more than walking down the street eating skills and whistling. Meanwhile they will show the picture of you on your worst day ever and people on CNN will analyze inaudible moments in your 911 call looking for racial slurs because. If you are a light skinned minority, you will become a white-insert-minority.

I'm sorry but this whole thing is so fucking ridiculous it's see through. The only way they can rip through Zimmerman's self-defense is if they can prove he attacked Martin, and that isn't looking too likely. So what the hell are we even talking about?

We're talking about passing laws to protect criminals. Passing laws to protect minorities from racial profiling. That's the real issue. Once it's all over and they don't get Zimmerman, because he's no longer in Uganda... it'll be about awareness... or something. I can't even keep track of the garbage in and garbage the media shoves down our throats anymore.

xDarc:

Vuljatar:

xDarc:
But people still insist zimmerman should not have gotten out of his truck to confront someone unknown to the neighborhood, acting suspiciously. Zimmerman had every right to confront someone acting suspiciously,

Have the right? Sure. Literally anyone could tell you that it would be a bad fucking idea, though.

Yeah, because you might get jumped by a man sized teenager who pounds your head into the ground and you'll have to shoot him. He will later be made out to appear no older than 12 and doing nothing more than walking down the street eating skills and whistling. Meanwhile they will show the picture of you on your worst day ever and people on CNN will analyze inaudible moments in your 911 call looking for racial slurs because. If you are a light skinned minority, you will become a white-insert-minority.

I'm sorry but this whole thing is so fucking ridiculous it's see through. The only way they can rip through Zimmerman's self-defense is if they can prove he attacked Martin, and that isn't looking too likely. So what the hell are we even talking about?

We're talking about passing laws to protect criminals. Passing laws to protect minorities from racial profiling. That's the real issue. Once it's all over and they don't get Zimmerman, because he's no longer in Uganda... it'll be about awareness... or something. I can't even keep track of the garbage in and garbage the media shoves down our throats anymore.

Do not ignore the rest of my post.

If Trayvon did indeed attack Zimmerman, it seems to me quite likely from the evidence that it was in self defense. What do you say to that? How would you feel about being stalked by an armed man? And what if he approached you aggressively? Would you run? You would probably expect to be shot in the back if you ran. Or would you fight, fight to defend your life--which you would logically assume to be in extreme danger?

Off Topic: THE ALL NEW CHEVY SONIC! Chevrolet, fuck yeah! I want the Chevy bowtie tattooed on my forehead! /sarcasm

Vuljatar:

Do not ignore the rest of my post.

You would probably expect to be shot in the back if you ran.

An armed man and a man brandishing a weapon are two different things.

The gun was worn in a holster in the back, under a red jacket, the police recovered it along with the gun. Martin likely didn't even know it was there until after he decided to attack Zimmerman.

xDarc:

educatedfool:

xDarc:

Not really. I think by now everyone knows this:

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

But people still insist zimmerman should not have gotten out of his truck to confront someone unknown to the neighborhood, acting suspiciously. Zimmerman had every right to confront someone acting suspiciously, and these facts lend credence that Martin was not squeaky clean, and may have not just been casually strolling along with a pocket full of skittles. He may have been up to something.

The autopsy will show martin attacked zimmerman, by trajectory, bruising to fists, and it will show he had his hand on the gun when it was fired. It wont be released for another three weeks.

But people still say well zimmerman shouldnt have gotten out of the truck? WTF line of thinking is this? That it's his fault and not Martin's for attacking him?

If I was being followed by a racist, paranoid, woman beating shitcunt I would turn around and attempt to beat the living fuck out of him.

Linking posts to the previous history of the victim, what the fuck is wrong with you? Do you have any idea of anything? That stuff ONLY matters if he has done something wrong and they need to investigate prior convictions.

You also neglected to point out the history of Mr Zimmerman.

Stop posting.

If it didn't matter than Zimmerman's history wouldn't matter either. Besides which his friend, who is black, came on TV and said George is not a racist. If you were roped into think he used a slur in the 911 call, you're wrong.

I think it's absolutely relevant when there's evidence that shows the victim was caught with a screwdriver with a large flat head and 12 pieces of jewlery in his backpack 5 months before someone decided to follow him for acting suspicuous. It's a hell of a lot more than you know besides the tea and skittles stuff the media is force feeding you all.

Some people are posting that this kid died pleading for his life, when from the witnesses it seems that he decided to beat the shit out of zimmerman and they fought over the gun- it sounds like he gave zimmerman no choice. So then they fall back on, well he shouldnt have gotten out of his truck- to which I say, bullshit. If Martin didn't jump him, he'd be alive.

"We don't need you to do that" is not a lawful order, so the crux of this whole thing lies on what Martin was doing to appear suspicious or was it racial profiling... so is there a chance a kid who was caught with women's jewelery and a screwdriver in his backpack at school 5 months before was up to something?

If another witness comes out confirming what Martin was doing to draw Zimmerman's attention in the first place, this whole thing is sunk and you will all feel stupid for having bought into the innocent kid with skittles nonsense. Because they can already clearly prove Martin is the aggressor or zimmerman absolutely would be jail. The autopsy hasn't been released because there is a grand jury coming and its sealed until then. It convenes April 19th, that gives the media another 3 weeks to milk this for all it is worth and set back race relations to the 1960s for ratings.

Sorry man, i just can't see how you don't see zimmerman leaving his car as being a problem. To me thats where this whole case boils down to. I can agree that the media may be drumming up a zimmerman as being a racist and that he was profiling that night, just as others are trying to throw out Martin's past to try and paint him in a bad light. To me, both are irrelevant. Hell, Martin could've been a 35 year old ex-con for all I care and it still wouldn't shape my oulook on the case based on what we know. We know that zimmerman was told that it he shouldn't follow Martin by the dispatcher. We know that Martin was unnarmed and according to his girlfriend; Zimmerman asked him "what are you doing around here" before the phone apparantly was dropped. We also know that another witness reportedly saw Martin on top of Zimmerman.

Now im sure that Zimmerman didn't intend to kill Martin, but to leave your car and stalk someone you don't know with a loaded weapon after being told not too is extremely stupid and negligent and if anything Zimmermen should be held accountable. He instigated the altercation. To use the phrase "getting jumped" as you have for what Martin may have done to Zimmerman seems a poor choice of words. As far as im concerned if someone is constantly following me in the middle of the night that I didn't know and asks me what im doing there, I'd tell them to go eat a d*ck and wouldn't think twice of throwing fists if they proceded to come near me.

To be suspicious of the how the media is painting this is one thing (hell I can see how they are doing it and it annoys the hell out of me when i see fools like Jesse Jackson and Sharpton taking cases like this and blowing them up into a race debate), but to sit there and say that its perfectly fine for zimmermen to get of his car and stalk someone with a loaded weapon and then say thats its Martin's fault that fight broke out? Come on.

What people are failing to get is that the main controversy about this case isn't what happened between Zimmerman and Martin, but rather the fact that the police dragged their feet with the investigation.

If the kid attacked him, he had a right to defend himself. Should he have shot him to kill, no. She he have shot him at all, probably not. This situation sucks, but if you attack (I say if because the kid might not have attacked Zimmerman) someone with a gun, bad things happen.

Also, this is towards the media, quit trying to bring a race war on. When you use "white Hispanic" instead of just Hispanic like any normal person would use, or giving the Black panthers the time of day, your just trying to stir things up. Stop it.

Shaoken:
What people are failing to get is that the main controversy about this case isn't what happened between Zimmerman and Martin, but rather the fact that the police dragged their feet with the investigation.

Yeah, that has been put to the side by the media because they want to focus on the race issues with the story.

Tanner The Monotone:
If the kid attacked him, he had a right to defend himself. Should he have shot him to kill, no. She he have shot him at all, probably not. This situation sucks, but if you attack (I say if because the kid might not have attacked Zimmerman) someone with a gun, bad things happen.

Also, this is towards the media, quit trying to bring a race war on. When you use "white Hispanic" instead of just Hispanic like any normal person would use, or giving the Black panthers the time of day, your just trying to stir things up. Stop it.

He is a white Hispanic. "White" is a race and "Hispanic" is an ethnicity. They aren't mutually exclusive categories like so many people seem to believe. That's why they're separate census questions.

Tanner The Monotone:

Shaoken:
What people are failing to get is that the main controversy about this case isn't what happened between Zimmerman and Martin, but rather the fact that the police dragged their feet with the investigation.

Yeah, that has been put to the side by the media because they want to focus on the race issues with the story.

The police dragging their feet seems to be very much a race issue.

JSF01:
Under this reasoning the pulling the triger was a defensive move to stop the attack.

Except being slapped by a 17 year old boy hardly justifies murder with firearms.

JSF01:
Being folowed or even chased in a public place is not enough to justify attacking someone, You can not claim self defense at that point since there was not a threat of bodily harm.

A crazed vigilante with a gun who'se chased you around several blocks for no reason is a definate threat. If someone approaches agressively with a weapon, you do not ask, you assault them, all-out by any means at your disposal. Attack their groin, eyes, small joints, anything repeatedly untill you can disarm them or they are incapacitated and cannot use their weapon anymore.
If they go to hospital, tough shit for the coward with the gun, the alternative is ending murdered like Martin has.

Mere presence of weapons = always a direct threat.

Blablahb:
. If someone approaches agressively with a weapon, you do not ask, you assault them, all-out by any means at your disposal. Attack their groin, eyes, small joints, anything repeatedly until you can disarm them or they are incapacitated and cannot use their weapon anymore.
If they go to hospital, tough shit for the coward with the gun, the alternative is ending murdered like Martin has..

Do you mind if I quote you on that point the next time someone shoots a home intruder?

I mean, after all, that's pretty much what that 18 year old did a few months ago. They charged her with a knife, and she attacked them so they couldn't use their weapon any more.

Tanner The Monotone:

Shaoken:
What people are failing to get is that the main controversy about this case isn't what happened between Zimmerman and Martin, but rather the fact that the police dragged their feet with the investigation.

Yeah, that has been put to the side by the media because they want to focus on the race issues with the story.

Of course they do. It sells more papers.

Blablahb:

JSF01:
Under this reasoning the pulling the triger was a defensive move to stop the attack.

Except being slapped by a 17 year old boy hardly justifies murder with firearms.

Yeesssss, a beatdown by a 6'3" high school football player is being slapped. Now he may have been skinny as a twig if 140 is his correctly reported weight, we'll find out when the autopsy comes out, but I don't know any guys on my high school team who could have been considered weak. They would have been cut so fast t would have made their heads spin.

Tanner The Monotone:

Shaoken:
What people are failing to get is that the main controversy about this case isn't what happened between Zimmerman and Martin, but rather the fact that the police dragged their feet with the investigation.

Yeah, that has been put to the side by the media because they want to focus on the race issues with the story.

If the race issue has been emphasized in this specific case it's because black people in this country have a long history of being harassed by other citizens while the police either participated or turned a blind eye, the only way anyone can figure Trayvon looked "suspicious" that night is that he was a black male wearing a hoodie, and the combination of him getting shot and the police appearing to intentionally half-ass the initial investigation is reminiscent of a very ugly part of American history.

xDarc:

Vuljatar:

Do not ignore the rest of my post.

You would probably expect to be shot in the back if you ran.

An armed man and a man brandishing a weapon are two different things.

The gun was worn in a holster in the back, under a red jacket, the police recovered it along with the gun. Martin likely didn't even know it was there until after he decided to attack Zimmerman.

Again, do we know this? Or is there a possibility that Zimmerman was indeed brandishing his weapon at Trayvon?

Shaoken:

PrinceOfShapeir:
Why do we allow it? Because criminals don't buy their guns from legitimate sources. Ban guns, and you don't stop gun crime, you just make sure the criminals know that the people they're targeting are helpless.

Funny, I live in a country (Australia) that has banned guns for a long time, yet we're not suddenly vunerable to having our houses invaded by people who have guns, because guns are illegal. Gaining access to a gun is harder than you assume, so most people who go through the effort don't waste it on robbing houses, especially since bringing a gun to a crime would up the sentance you'd recieve if caught.

Ban guns, and go after those who have them and those who supply them. Not a difficult concept.

yeah, cuz that's worked SO well in the war on drugs...oh.....

*sigh*

To the people going "Martin OBVIOUSLY jumped Zimm, and such deserved to get shot!"...Might I ask you what YOU would do if you're walking home and a guy is clearly following you with his car, and when you start jogging away from this creepy situation faster, he gets out of his car and pursues you, and then then relentlessly chases you not only down the street but into a backyard shortcut you took to get away from him? Are you going to stop and politely ask why he's chasing you? No. You're going to assume he means you harm, and is determined to do so. So odds are, you will defend yourself. The kid didn't "jump Zimmerman". Zimmerman made him fear for his safety, so he attempted to defend himself.

*SIGH* But really, what sickens me is just that the cops didn't do their freakin job. If they had tested Zimm for Alchohol/drugs, confiscated the weapon as evidence, gotten ALL the witness accounts done and taken care of right away, and generally looked like they were taking the case seriously, then we wouldn't be HAVING this stupid "he said - they said" theorycrafting discussion. We would have more evidence, and the whole thing would be more clear. But since the cops dragged their feet and didn't do their jobs, this incident went from "plain old tragedy" to "overblown, polarizing media shitstorm tragedy", and that is what pisses me off the most.

Shaoken:
What people are failing to get is that the main controversy about this case isn't what happened between Zimmerman and Martin, but rather the fact that the police dragged their feet with the investigation.

THIS.

THIS THIS THIS.

Captcha: "In spades". Appropriate captcha!

aegix drakan:
*sigh*

To the people going "Martin OBVIOUSLY jumped Zimm, and such deserved to get shot!"...Might I ask you what YOU would do if you're walking home and a guy is clearly following you with his car, and when you start jogging away from this creepy situation faster, he gets out of his car and pursues you, and then then relentlessly chases you not only down the street but into a backyard shortcut you took to get away from him? Are you going to stop and politely ask why he's chasing you? No. You're going to assume he means you harm, and is determined to do so. So odds are, you will defend yourself. The kid didn't "jump Zimmerman". Zimmerman made him fear for his safety, so he attempted to defend himself.

*SIGH* But really, what sickens me is just that the cops didn't do their freakin job. If they had tested Zimm for Alchohol/drugs, confiscated the weapon as evidence, gotten ALL the witness accounts done and taken care of right away, and generally looked like they were taking the case seriously, then we wouldn't be HAVING this stupid "he said - they said" theorycrafting discussion. We would have more evidence, and the whole thing would be more clear. But since the cops dragged their feet and didn't do their jobs, this incident went from "plain old tragedy" to "overblown, polarizing media shitstorm tragedy", and that is what pisses me off the most.

Shaoken:
What people are failing to get is that the main controversy about this case isn't what happened between Zimmerman and Martin, but rather the fact that the police dragged their feet with the investigation.

THIS.

THIS THIS THIS.

Captcha: "In spades". Appropriate captcha!

You know, if a guy started following me, my solution would not be 'ATTACK THE SON OF A BITCH!' It would be more like 'get the fuck out of dodge.'

cobra_ky:

Tanner The Monotone:
If the kid attacked him, he had a right to defend himself. Should he have shot him to kill, no. She he have shot him at all, probably not. This situation sucks, but if you attack (I say if because the kid might not have attacked Zimmerman) someone with a gun, bad things happen.

Also, this is towards the media, quit trying to bring a race war on. When you use "white Hispanic" instead of just Hispanic like any normal person would use, or giving the Black panthers the time of day, your just trying to stir things up. Stop it.

He is a white Hispanic. "White" is a race and "Hispanic" is an ethnicity. They aren't mutually exclusive categories like so many people seem to believe. That's why they're separate census questions.

Tanner The Monotone:

Shaoken:
What people are failing to get is that the main controversy about this case isn't what happened between Zimmerman and Martin, but rather the fact that the police dragged their feet with the investigation.

Yeah, that has been put to the side by the media because they want to focus on the race issues with the story.

The police dragging their feet seems to be very much a race issue.

Why, did a cop say something like "Damn, I hate dem darkies. I think I'm not going to help them" or is it the generic racist cop thing?

Serge A. Storms:

Tanner The Monotone:

Shaoken:
What people are failing to get is that the main controversy about this case isn't what happened between Zimmerman and Martin, but rather the fact that the police dragged their feet with the investigation.

Yeah, that has been put to the side by the media because they want to focus on the race issues with the story.

If the race issue has been emphasized in this specific case it's because black people in this country have a long history of being harassed by other citizens while the police either participated or turned a blind eye, the only way anyone can figure Trayvon looked "suspicious" that night is that he was a black male wearing a hoodie, and the combination of him getting shot and the police appearing to intentionally half-ass the initial investigation is reminiscent of a very ugly part of American history.

Is there anything that shows that because of the kid's race the cops half ass'd the investigation, or are we just assuming it?

PrinceOfShapeir:

You know, if a guy started following me, my solution would not be 'ATTACK THE SON OF A BITCH!' It would be more like 'get the fuck out of dodge.'

And it looks like the kid TRIED that. He DID run. But he was pursued, and wasn't able to shake his pursuer. It looks like he only attacked because fleeing didn't work.

ravenshrike:
esssss, a beatdown by a 6'3" high school football player is being slapped.

You weren't there, so you can't say 'beatdown'. In any case, a grown man shooting a firearm at a child is a murderer and a coward.

Besides, you have no clue how strong people are. I do. And let me tell you, the chance some light kid can inflict damage on a grown man, even if he is trying to, is nil. Besides, people always struggle first. Only trained fighters go in with fist or kicking techniques first.

Have you seen pictures of the murderer Zimmerman? He weighs at the very least 90 kilos. Zimmerman claims a punch from a kid maybe half his weight bloodied his nose and knocked him to the floor. Zimmerman is a big fat liar, to get knocked down on your nose you need a real stunner, and nobody of Travis' weight can deliver that kind of a punch, not even if they trained for it heavily. I broke my nose during a fight and it didn't wobble the knees at all, it just stings a little and makes you tear.

The entire incident consisted of less than a minute. The idea that a light kid can inflict major damage on a guy twice his size is quite laughable. The murderer is clearly trying to make excuses for himself.

Vuljatar:
Again, do we know this? Or is there a possibility that Zimmerman was indeed brandishing his weapon at Trayvon?

He had it out to murder him at the alledged first punch, so obviously. Besides, he has a history as a crazed paranoid vigilante.

Zimmerman also has a history of violence, with arrests for attacking a police officer and domestic violence, together with alcoholism.

Besides, the murderer's own statement said Travis only punched him in an attempt to seize his gun, meaning he was showing it already and trying to kill Travis before Travis even touched him, if that even happened at all.

Tanner The Monotone:

Serge A. Storms:

Tanner The Monotone:

Yeah, that has been put to the side by the media because they want to focus on the race issues with the story.

If the race issue has been emphasized in this specific case it's because black people in this country have a long history of being harassed by other citizens while the police either participated or turned a blind eye, the only way anyone can figure Trayvon looked "suspicious" that night is that he was a black male wearing a hoodie, and the combination of him getting shot and the police appearing to intentionally half-ass the initial investigation is reminiscent of a very ugly part of American history.

Is there anything that shows that because of the kid's race the cops half ass'd the investigation, or are we just assuming it?

Like I said, it's the combination of how he got killed and the police doing what was largely perceived to be a shitty job. There's no evidence that those things are directly connected but even if they had nothing to do with each other the police picked a pretty bad case to screw around on and they really should have known how it would look handling it the way they did.

Blablahb:

ravenshrike:
esssss, a beatdown by a 6'3" high school football player is being slapped.

You weren't there, so you can't say 'beatdown'. In any case, a grown man shooting a firearm at a child is a murderer and a coward.

Besides, you have no clue how strong people are. I do. And let me tell you, the chance some light kid can inflict damage on a grown man, even if he is trying to, is nil. Besides, people always struggle first. Only trained fighters go in with fist or kicking techniques first.

Have you seen pictures of the murderer Zimmerman? He weighs at the very least 90 kilos. Zimmerman claims a punch from a kid maybe half his weight bloodied his nose and knocked him to the floor. Zimmerman is a big fat liar, to get knocked down on your nose you need a real stunner, and nobody of Travis' weight can deliver that kind of a punch, not even if they trained for it heavily. I broke my nose during a fight and it didn't wobble the knees at all, it just stings a little and makes you tear.

All this proves is you don't know jack shit about real fighting. Falling is much more an issue of balance than of weight. If Zimmerman was off balance(say from trying to flinch away at a sudden punch) when he was hit, he was going down if the hit was solid. Doesn't matter that he was a fat bastard. As for skinny being not that powerful, while that may be true when talking comparatively about professional fighters, it is decidedly untrue when talking about someone who works out regularly for what is effectively a limited combat sport vs an out of shape fat guy. Especially given their difference in height.

Blablahb:
Besides, the murderer's own statement said Travis only punched him in an attempt to seize his gun, meaning he was showing it already and trying to kill Travis before Travis even touched him, if that even happened at all.

[citation needed]

you know what this media circus reminds me of?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case

lot of back and forth with accusation that 3 white boys had raped a black woman, and guess what? they were innocent.

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