8 Truths About Jesus and the Cross

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8 Truths About Jesus and the Cross

So basically since Easter is around the corner Mark Driscoll posted 8 thruths about Jesus on the cross..........

1. God is holy and without any sin.
2. God made the world and us as good.
3. We rebelled against God.
4. We are sinful.
5. Sin results in death.
6. Jesus is sinless.
7. Jesus became our sin.
8. Jesus died for us.

I know some people do not share my beliefs and that is fine but some do either way I just wanted to share this list so we do not forget why we observe Easter.

more in-depth: http://www.christianpost.com/news/mark-driscoll-8-truths-about-jesus-and-the-cross-72209/

Was there something you wanted to discuss? I don't think you'll find very extensive approval of basically using this discussion forum as a billboard.

1. Presumes to know not only of the existence but also of the nature of an unfalsifiable, undemonstrable being.
2. Presumes to know the actions of an unfalsifiable being without evidence thereof, presumes to know human nature with no evidence.
3. Presents a statement which, knowing that god is essentially completely unknowable, makes no sense whatsoever.
4. Offers up sin, apparently not realizing how little the term actually means when you cannot be sure what god thinks.
5. Offers a statement which is clearly false and nonsensical
6. Proclaims that a historical figure whose very existence is highly questionable has a supernatural quality, which also makes no sense (see 4.)
7. Offers a nonsensical, meaningless statement
8. Offers a factual statement with no evidence.

Don't call them "truths" if they aren't actually backed up by anything but faith.

Furthermore, "Easter" was observed long before Christianity came along. Much like with Christmas, Easter originally started as a pagan season celebration, celebrating the spring equinox. Claiming that "Jesus died for our sins" is the reason we observe Easter, especially when you can't even establish the reason as fact in and of itself, is pretty weak.

And yeah, there's not really much to discuss when the OP is so blatantly flawed in so many ways.

KlLLUMINATI:
1. God is holy and without any sin.
Erm... usually facts require, you know, evidence to be called facts.
2. God made the world and us as good.
Yep, not all that SCIENCE stuff that explains it perfectly without violating everything we know about the universe, nope, God.
3. We rebelled against God.
I'd hardly call it that in the same sense I didn't try and start a revolution among the other kids when I learnt Santa wasn't real.
4. We are sinful.
Hell yeah!
5. Sin results in death.
No, age and and other stuff result in death.
6. Jesus is sinless.
In the same sense a unicorn is magical. Yes, it is, but that doesn't make it real.
7. Jesus became our sin.
So Jesus is sin? I thought you just said he was sinless.
8. Jesus died for us.
...sure.

I love how you tried to pass this off as if you weren't shoving religion down our throat by putting ''BLAH BLAH, I know not everyone believes this, but others do...''
Yes, they do, but even THEY can't scrape a discussion out of this, so why post it in a discussion forum?

KlLLUMINATI:

5. Sin results in death.
6. Jesus is sinless.
7. Jesus became our sin.
8. Jesus died for us.

So then how come I'm still going to die? If he went all sponge on the sin and soaked it all up how come we're not all immortal super-nice-guys.

Also you make LOADS of threads.

Cool story, bro.

(And here was me thinking Easter was about trying to make ancient Christianity more palatable to the pagans of that time, but I'm sure such blatant politicking would be beneath True Believers (tm)

Oirish_Martin:
Cool story, bro.

(And here was me thinking Easter was about trying to make ancient Christianity more palatable to the pagans of that time, but I'm sure such blatant politicking would be beneath True Believers (tm)

Thank you for adding this to my day. Genuinely funny sarcasm is hard for me to come by these days. I salute you good sir.

KlLLUMINATI:

1. God is holy and without any sin.

Jesus said that anyone who hates someone is equivalent to a murderer[1], and murder is a sin. However we also see that God hates. Therefore, God is not without sin.

That's not even getting into any of the genocide stuff.

KlLLUMINATI:

2. God made the world and us as good.

Including the evil snake, right?

KlLLUMINATI:

3. We rebelled against God.

Technically, 'we' did no such thing. Assuming you're taking a literal Genesis story, Adam and Eve did. We had no part of it. It's rather questionable if it's even possible to rebel when one has no concept of right or wrong.

KlLLUMINATI:

4. We are sinful.

Eh, by your definition I suppose. Personally I choose to think of 'sinful' as 'not living an utterly boring life devoid of shellfish and shaving'. But whatever.

KlLLUMINATI:

5. Sin results in death.

Life results in death. Sin has nothing to do with it.

KlLLUMINATI:

6. Jesus is sinless.

Jesus is part of the trinity (three Gods in one. How the fuck does that work again?) and as we've established, God has sinned. Thus, Jesus has sinned (because they're the same being) and thus he's not sinless.

You also have to somehow make Matthew 5:22 and Matthew 23:17 somehow match up.

Matthew 5:22:
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 23:17:
You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?

KlLLUMINATI:

7. Jesus became our sin.

That would be the sin that he first instituted on us by calling an action 'rebellion' when the people who 'rebelled' had no concept of right or wrong and thus could not actually understand the consequences of their actions, right?

KlLLUMINATI:

8. Jesus died for us.

...an entirely symbolic and utterly pointless gesture when you consider that it was performed by an omnipotent being who didn't need to torture someone just to erase the 'sin' that he first implemented.

Even that, that's accepting your premise that some sort of Christian God as described by the Bible exists. Stagnant took the more skeptical (and reasonable) standpoint but I'm a sucker for arguing from a conceded position when I don't have to.

[1] 1 John 3:15

Danny Ocean:

KlLLUMINATI:

5. Sin results in death.
6. Jesus is sinless.
7. Jesus became our sin.
8. Jesus died for us.

So then how come I'm still going to die? If he went all sponge on the sin and soaked it all up how come we're not all immortal super-nice-guys.

Also you make LOADS of threads.

Well look at it logically. The statement 'Sin results in death' does not say anything about deaths from other sources, like bullets or old age =D

This 'this is fact' spam is quite annoying, especially considering not a word of it is true and it's against the forum rules to make such hit&run topics with just copypasta and a statement.

The whole celebration isn't even about something Christian, it comes from Ostara, or Eostre as it's written closer to it's original pronounciation. April is Ostara's month.

People celebrated the start of the spring. That's where stuff like easter eggs comes from; celebrating the potential for life that the spring brings.

Thats....not...what they taught me in Theology class

I don't know, bunnies, eggs, eastern branches...
Sounds suspiciously like a fertility festival to me?

Bassik:
I don't know, bunnies, eggs, eastern branches...
Sounds suspiciously like a fertility festival to me?

Always needs more Eddie Izzard.

Modern-day Easter is derived from two ancient traditions: one Judeo-Christian and the other Pagan. Both Christians and Pagans have celebrated death and resurrection themes following the Spring Equinox for millennia. Most religious historians believe that many elements of the Christian observance of Easter were derived from earlier Pagan celebrations.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/easter.htm

What you believe and what is facts are not the same thing. Do you believe Christmas celebrates Jesus birth? It does not. It's origin is pagan as well.

Bassik:
I don't know, bunnies, eggs, eastern branches...
Sounds suspiciously like a fertility festival to me?

Tagged to *ahem* the MOON, which plays such a significant role in other Christian sacraments and festivals....

Oirish_Martin:

Bassik:
I don't know, bunnies, eggs, eastern branches...
Sounds suspiciously like a fertility festival to me?

Tagged to *ahem* the MOON, which plays such a significant role in other Christian sacraments and festivals....

Well we have a suspect, do we have a motive?

Cool story, bro.
(And here was me thinking Easter was about trying to make ancient Christianity more palatable to the pagans of that time, but I'm sure such blatant politicking would be beneath True Believers (tm)

Rastelin:
Modern-day Easter is derived from two ancient traditions: one Judeo-Christian and the other Pagan. Both Christians and Pagans have celebrated death and resurrection themes following the Spring Equinox for millennia. Most religious historians believe that many elements of the Christian observance of Easter were derived from earlier Pagan celebrations.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/easter.htm

What you believe and what is facts are not the same thing. Do you believe Christmas celebrates Jesus birth? It does not. It's origin is pagan as well.

you can thank eccentric roman emperor Constantine for that he was the one that changed all the holidays so they could more easily convert the pagans. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/news/2000/dec08.html

OT: dude you are the most polarized person on this board its like its 2 guys using 1 account. I reported this OP since it is just a spam copy pasta and this thread has no discussion value.

Half the threads on this board have been made by you. Please slow the fuck down already, you're worse than Danyal.

PercyBoleyn:
Half the threads on this board have been made by you. Please slow the fuck down already, you're worse than Danyal.

the anit-danyal (killuminati) needs to play a game of catch up so yeah.

KlLLUMINATI:
8 Truths About Jesus and the Cross

So basically since Easter is around the corner Mark Driscoll posted 8 thruths about Jesus on the cross..........

1. God is holy and without any sin.
2. God made the world and us as good.
3. We rebelled against God.
4. We are sinful.
5. Sin results in death.
6. Jesus is sinless.
7. Jesus became our sin.
8. Jesus died for us.

I know some people do not share my beliefs and that is fine but some do either way I just wanted to share this list so we do not forget why we observe Easter.

more in-depth: http://www.christianpost.com/news/mark-driscoll-8-truths-about-jesus-and-the-cross-72209/

Absolutely none of them are truths, they're opinion. And them being supposedly sacred or religious doesn't change any of them of scrutiny. I apologize ahead of time for my incompetence in quoting what your points one by one, so please just bare/bear with me.

'God is holy'

First of all, allow me to touch up on that part. The idea of holyness its self is pretty much just a fallacy that people can use so they can easily justify something ridiculous, absurd, or extroardinary. Simply saying something is sacred or holy does not grant it any more value or meaning nor does it make invalidate any criticisms brought against it. If I had my childhood ruined to rule 34 then I'm sure it's only fair that your faith is criticized for the more bizarre aspects behind it.

'Without any sin'

While my last statement was quite subjective based around my own morality, this one simply cannot be argued against. I hate to be vulgar, but that entire statement is ludicrous. No, god is not without sin. Lets take a good look at the numerous things he's done, shall we?

1. God has killed people out of anger. That is Wrath. Oh, and he's breaking a commandmant.
2. God has killed people out of envy of other prophets, gods, or religions. That is Envy.
3. God clearly thinks quite highly of him self. That is pride.
4. God raped/impregnated Mary while she was engaged to Joseph. That's lust and it just so happens that he's also breaking another commandment

God hasn't just committed sins, he has commited deadly sins. Some people will justify his actions by saying 'well, he's a holy being!' No, that's nonsense. If he truly is an omniscient being then he shouldn't depend on a fallacy or loophole to justify his actions, especially when it contradicts HIS OWN MORAL CODE which he is enforcing upon people. Seriously, this level of hypocrisy is inexcuseable. That's as insane as a vegan eating meat, or a pro - lifer having an abortion.

With any form of faith or belief sacrifice is required on our own part. In fact, we need to suffer for our beliefs. For Vegans in particular they have to completely rearrange their diet to something that is almost alien to how we've been living our lives for centuries. This god has clearly not shown any form of suffering or loyalty to his own belief. It's as the saying goes, practice what you preach.

'God made us and the world as good'

That's not a truth, that's just an opinion. And one that centres around a being that may not even exist.

'We rebelled against god'

Opinion, for he may not exist.

'We are sinful'

And so is god, so he has absolutely no moral high ground in giving me any of his 'holier than thou' nonsense.

'Sin results in death.'

No, death is going to come no matter what. And if it did result in death then God would be dead.

'Jesus is sinless'

Opinion. He's a guy that existed centuries ago, the truth of the matter is that we simply cannot know what kind of man he was.

'Jesus became our sin'

Opinion. If god is omniscient and all powerful then there is basically no reason he had to make a son and manifest him into our sin.

'Jesus died for our sin.'

Opinion. And I just hope for gods sake that he died for his as well.

KlLLUMINATI:
8 Truths About Jesus and the Cross

So basically since Easter is around the corner Mark Driscoll posted 8 thruths about Jesus on the cross..........

1. God is holy and without any sin.
2. God made the world and us as good.
3. We rebelled against God.
4. We are sinful.
5. Sin results in death.
6. Jesus is sinless.
7. Jesus became our sin.
8. Jesus died for us.

I feel very misled here...

* I don't see a single thing regarding the cross at all.

* Only 1 of the 8 has anything to do with Jesus on the cross, even then it's by association more than anything else.

* Only 3 of the 8 have anything to do with Jesus at all.

How can I bother commenting on each one if the premise isn't even accurate?

Trust everyone on this forum to jump on the opportunity and seriously reply to his post.

This whole "Christianity vs Atheism" thing is getting extremely tiring. I dont know why people are reacting in such an aggressive manner, OPs post was anything but that.

I will never understand easter.

I kinda get how eggs relates to rebirth but wasnt the whole point of that thing not that he was rebirthed but that he died for sins in the first place?

Can someone explain how this even begins to make sense in celebrating what happened? I thought the holiday should be different. But then again i love chocolate. Yay chocolate.

Happy Easter OP, I am glad to see you are happy in your faith. As for me, I'm just in it for the delicious Easter feast and watching my daughter hunt for brightly colored eggs.

I love holidays.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
Trust everyone on this forum to jump on the opportunity and seriously reply to his post.

This whole "Christianity vs Atheism" thing is getting extremely tiring. I dont know why people are reacting in such an aggressive manner, OPs post was anything but that.

simply these wolves are not satisfied so they must rip everything to shreds to try and satisfy themselves.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
Trust everyone on this forum to jump on the opportunity and seriously reply to his post.

This whole "Christianity vs Atheism" thing is getting extremely tiring. I dont know why people are reacting in such an aggressive manner, OPs post was anything but that.

"How dare you reply seriously to a post about religion on a religion and politics forum?"

What would you prefer? Mocking satire?

Amnestic:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
Trust everyone on this forum to jump on the opportunity and seriously reply to his post.

This whole "Christianity vs Atheism" thing is getting extremely tiring. I dont know why people are reacting in such an aggressive manner, OPs post was anything but that.

"How dare you reply seriously to a post about religion on a religion and politics forum?"

What would you prefer? Mocking satire?

Since you asked so kindly, personally I would prefer people just not replying. It just seems rather sickening. A lot of atheists here seem to enjoy shitting all over peoples believes and will do so at every opportunity.

Not that the OP wasnt asking for it.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

Amnestic:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
Trust everyone on this forum to jump on the opportunity and seriously reply to his post.

This whole "Christianity vs Atheism" thing is getting extremely tiring. I dont know why people are reacting in such an aggressive manner, OPs post was anything but that.

"How dare you reply seriously to a post about religion on a religion and politics forum?"

What would you prefer? Mocking satire?

Since you asked so kindly, personally I would prefer people just not replying. It just seems rather sickening. A lot of atheists here seem to enjoy shitting all over peoples believes and will do so at every opportunity.

Not that the OP wasnt asking for it.

You post your views on a public forum designed for debate, you open yourself up to critique. If he didn't want that to happen he shouldn't have posted.

Amnestic:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

Amnestic:

"How dare you reply seriously to a post about religion on a religion and politics forum?"

What would you prefer? Mocking satire?

Since you asked so kindly, personally I would prefer people just not replying. It just seems rather sickening. A lot of atheists here seem to enjoy shitting all over peoples believes and will do so at every opportunity.

Not that the OP wasnt asking for it.

You post your views on a public forum designed for debate, you open yourself up to critique. If he didn't want that to happen he shouldn't have posted.

I agree. That doesnt make a few people here any less disagreeable though.

(And no, that was not intended to be a stab at you personally.)

Sorry dude, but a post like this is just asking for trouble.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
Trust everyone on this forum to jump on the opportunity and seriously reply to his post.

He shot himself in the foot by calling them "truths". He could have said, "Here are the things I believe." If he'd done that, he'd have a thread no one would care about. Instead he has a thread that no one cares about and is also wrong.

This whole "Christianity vs Atheism" thing is getting extremely tiring. I dont know why people are reacting in such an aggressive manner, OPs post was anything but that.

And in this case, KlLLUMINATI was the only instigator. And I think he deserves every bit of flack that's coming his way.

This is a discussion board. Not a self-affirmation board. Posting what you think without even bothering to attempt a discussion hook others might be interested isn't just dull, it's downright arrogant.

He's becoming the anti-Danyal. The two of them are responsible for almost half of the threads on the front page, most of which are just the OP grinding at their own personal wheelhouse for its own sake.

I don't "observe" Easter (unless you count observing people observing Easter...), so I'm just going to take a back seat on this one and say "Whatever floats your boat".

1. God is holy and without any sin, but only because he has control over the word "sin" and he says that it doesn't apply to himself.
2. God made the world and us as good, and he made us rebellious.
3. We rebelled against God.
4. We are sinful, even though God didn't make us that way.
5. Sin results in death. Or maybe it's the laws of thermodynamics. One of those two.
6. Jesus is sinless.
7. Jesus became our sin.
8. Jesus died for us. Afterwards, he became the all-powerful prince of the universe, and we're supposed to feel sorry that that happened to him.

Popadoo:

KlLLUMINATI:
1. God is holy and without any sin.
Erm... usually facts require, you know, evidence to be called facts.
2. God made the world and us as good.
Yep, not all that SCIENCE stuff that explains it perfectly without violating everything we know about the universe, nope, God.
3. We rebelled against God.
I'd hardly call it that in the same sense I didn't try and start a revolution among the other kids when I learnt Santa wasn't real.
4. We are sinful.
Hell yeah!
5. Sin results in death.
No, age and and other stuff result in death.
6. Jesus is sinless.
In the same sense a unicorn is magical. Yes, it is, but that doesn't make it real.
7. Jesus became our sin.
So Jesus is sin? I thought you just said he was sinless.
8. Jesus died for us.
...sure.

I love how you tried to pass this off as if you weren't shoving religion down our throat by putting ''BLAH BLAH, I know not everyone believes this, but others do...''
Yes, they do, but even THEY can't scrape a discussion out of this, so why post it in a discussion forum?

Seeing as how this is a forum for religion it only makes sense to post it here.

Amnestic:

KlLLUMINATI:

1. God is holy and without any sin.

Jesus said that anyone who hates someone is equivalent to a murderer[1], and murder is a sin. However we also see that God hates. Therefore, God is not without sin.

That's not even getting into any of the genocide stuff.

KlLLUMINATI:

2. God made the world and us as good.

Including the evil snake, right?

KlLLUMINATI:

3. We rebelled against God.

Technically, 'we' did no such thing. Assuming you're taking a literal Genesis story, Adam and Eve did. We had no part of it. It's rather questionable if it's even possible to rebel when one has no concept of right or wrong.

KlLLUMINATI:

4. We are sinful.

Eh, by your definition I suppose. Personally I choose to think of 'sinful' as 'not living an utterly boring life devoid of shellfish and shaving'. But whatever.

KlLLUMINATI:

5. Sin results in death.

Life results in death. Sin has nothing to do with it.

KlLLUMINATI:

6. Jesus is sinless.

Jesus is part of the trinity (three Gods in one. How the fuck does that work again?) and as we've established, God has sinned. Thus, Jesus has sinned (because they're the same being) and thus he's not sinless.

You also have to somehow make Matthew 5:22 and Matthew 23:17 somehow match up.

Matthew 5:22:
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 23:17:
You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?

KlLLUMINATI:

7. Jesus became our sin.

That would be the sin that he first instituted on us by calling an action 'rebellion' when the people who 'rebelled' had no concept of right or wrong and thus could not actually understand the consequences of their actions, right?

KlLLUMINATI:

8. Jesus died for us.

...an entirely symbolic and utterly pointless gesture when you consider that it was performed by an omnipotent being who didn't need to torture someone just to erase the 'sin' that he first implemented.

Even that, that's accepting your premise that some sort of Christian God as described by the Bible exists. Stagnant took the more skeptical (and reasonable) standpoint but I'm a sucker for arguing from a conceded position when I don't have to.

Not arguing at all. I have my beliefs he has his nitpicking is not going to change mine at all.

[1] 1 John 3:15

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