National Organisation for Marriage: "Drive wedge between Gays and Blacks." NOM NOM NOM.

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So you guys remember NOM right? The guys who were pissed at Starbucks for being okay with gay marriage? Well guess whose internal memos just got leaked.

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But remember guys, it's the gay agenda that you need to be concerned about. Not these guys. These guys are looking out for the family!...unless you've they have the ghey.

Also I like how they're going to 'raise' the issue of pornography.

03:50-04:10

That... is quite possibly the most horrifyingly truthful thing I have read in a long time. Conspiracy theorists are gonna go ape shit for decades with this one.

NOM is a Poe right? Like Landover Baptist. Right?

Right?

.....right?

Tell me this ain't real.

That's horrifying.

Those damn dirty liberals will use any means to smear good christian conservative organisations, even publicising internal documents! I expect Obama to apologize for this outrage.

In other news, the document also contained this little nugget:

Here's the bottom line: Hollywood with its cultural biases is far bigger than we can hope to be. We recognize this. But we also recognize the opportunity-the disproportionate potential impact of proactively seeking to gather and connect a community of artists, athletes, writers, beauty queens and other glamorous non-cognitive elites across national boundaries. (This is applying the Witherspoon and IAV model to non-intellectual elites.)

I'm sure it's a great honour to be classed as non-cognitive.

What is this, I don't even...

OT: Why was Maine investigating NOM? And How did they get these files?

EDIT:

Mathak:
That's horrifying.

Those damn dirty liberals will use any means to smear good christian conservative organisations, even publicising internal documents! I expect Obama to apologize for this outrage.

That was a joke right?

They don't really have to try all that hard. Most latinos and blacks are fairly religious and socially conservative. I really think that this ought to be a wake up call for rights activists to realize who they are talking to and realize that many of them may be averse to the manner in which they have been attempting to communicate their message.

Edit: And Toby Ziegler was the motherfucker! My favourite character from West Wing. Unfortunately the embedding on that video is disabled.

Amnestic:
These guys are looking out for the family

as my mum is given to say, seeing as my brother is gay, do they think gay people sprout from the ground ?

anti-gay is anti-family.

because, shock horror, gay people have familys.

Why is this group allowed again? Free speech? This has very little to do with free speech and more with "destabilizing the nation for our own creepy agenda."
Free speech would be saying you don't like homosexuals. This is not free speech, and therefore should not be protected by US law.

It's because this is a "Christian" organization, isn't it?
You lot in the US always get weird when Christianity is involved. If this were a Muslim or secular group, do you really think they would get as much freedom as these people enjoy?

Any group with the word "family" in it seems to be some kind of hate group, I find this very disconcerting.

It was always obvious that groups like NOM tried to create rifts between gays and blacks and latinos, but it's so nice to look straight at the evidence and know for sure.

NAACP President and CEO Benjamin Todd Jealous said in a statement that NOM's plan was rooted in cynicism and predicted it would fail.

"No group, no matter how well funded, can drive an artificial wedge between two communities whose histories are so intertwined. People of color understand what it is like to be the target of discrimination. No public relations strategy will make us forget that," Jealous said.

I'm glad it's not going unnoticed.

I wanted to add, though, what I find the funniest is their "international approach" thing with latinos. Mexico and Argentina have gay marriage and Brazil and Colombia have civil unions, the four biggest countries in Latin America are doing a lot better than the United States of America when it comes to gay equality. It's like right-wing Americans forget that the rest of the world isn't as conservative as they are.

Diablo1099:
What is this, I don't even...

OT: Why was Maine investigating NOM? And How did they get these files?

EDIT:

Mathak:
That's horrifying.

Those damn dirty liberals will use any means to smear good christian conservative organisations, even publicising internal documents! I expect Obama to apologize for this outrage.

That was a joke right?

It was; he's mocking the fact that Gringwhich is calling on Obama to apologise for a joke made at White House function by a celebrity (name eludes me right now) mocking the idea of people not being ready for a Black President and first Lady back in 2008 by questioning if America is ready for a White First lady.

ten.to.ten:
It was always obvious that groups like NOM tried to create rifts between gays and blacks and latinos, but it's so nice to look straight at the evidence and know for sure.

NAACP President and CEO Benjamin Todd Jealous said in a statement that NOM's plan was rooted in cynicism and predicted it would fail.

"No group, no matter how well funded, can drive an artificial wedge between two communities whose histories are so intertwined. People of color understand what it is like to be the target of discrimination. No public relations strategy will make us forget that," Jealous said.

I'm glad it's not going unnoticed.

I wanted to add, though, what I find the funniest is their "international approach" thing with latinos. Mexico and Argentina have gay marriage and Brazil and Colombia have civil unions, the four biggest countries in Latin America are doing a lot better than the United States of America when it comes to gay equality. It's like right-wing Americans forget that the rest of the world isn't as conservative as they are.

Maybe they should focus on fundamentalist Muslims instead. I think Al-Qa'ida would agree with them, don't you? The Iranian government, too.

See? Family Groups have allies everywhere! *typed with the most sarcastic of intents.*

TheStatutoryApe:
They don't really have to try all that hard. Most latinos and blacks are fairly religious and socially conservative. I really think that this ought to be a wake up call for rights activists to realize who they are talking to and realize that many of them may be averse to the manner in which they have been attempting to communicate their message.

Edit: And Toby Ziegler was the motherfucker! My favourite character from West Wing. Unfortunately the embedding on that video is disabled.

this ought to be a wake-up call to black and latino activists that their culture is being coopted to serve a right-wing political agenda.

Sleekit:

Amnestic:
These guys are looking out for the family

as my mum is given to say, seeing as my brother is gay, do they think gay people sprout from the ground ?

anti-gay is anti-family.

because, shock horror, gay people have familys.

:P

TheStatutoryApe:

Edit: And Toby Ziegler was the motherfucker! My favourite character from West Wing. Unfortunately the embedding on that video is disabled.

Bah. Knew I shoulda checked it first. Just went with the first video I could find.

And yeah, Toby's awesome.

evilneko:
NOM is a Poe right? Like Landover Baptist. Right?

Right?

.....right?

Tell me this ain't real.

If it's a poe, it's a very extensive one.

Diablo1099:

OT: Why was Maine investigating NOM? And How did they get these files?

It appears to be related to their possible donor disclosure violations.

Poor NOM.
They think about gay sex more than homosexuals.

Capache: know your rights

Amnestic:

Sleekit:

Amnestic:
These guys are looking out for the family

as my mum is given to say, seeing as my brother is gay, do they think gay people sprout from the ground ?

anti-gay is anti-family.

because, shock horror, gay people have familys.

:P

people who bullied my brother used to always seem quite shocked his retribution came with 5 straight brothers attached...

i even had guys going like "but comon man he's a poof..." to me...his brother...as if that made beating him up ok and i'd just go "oh ok, alright then" as opposed to beating the shit out them for daring to touch MY little brother...

ten.to.ten:
I wanted to add, though, what I find the funniest is their "international approach" thing with latinos. Mexico and Argentina have gay marriage and Brazil and Colombia have civil unions, the four biggest countries in Latin America are doing a lot better than the United States of America when it comes to gay equality. It's like right-wing Americans forget that the rest of the world isn't as conservative as they are.

I am wondering about how Mexico's politics and political system work. From what I understand there is a lot of homophobia in Mexico and it has a much higher rate of violence against homosexuals than the US, including outright targeted murder.

cobra_ky:
this ought to be a wake-up call to black and latino activists that their culture is being coopted to serve a right-wing political agenda.

And if they agree with that agenda then what exactly are they supposed to "wake up" to?

cobra_ky:
this ought to be a wake-up call to black and latino activists that their culture is being coopted to serve a right-wing political agenda.

This makes me think of a year or two ago when there was still (perhaps misguided) hope that congress could pass a comprehensive immigration reform bill. Latino groups wanted reform for obvious reasons, and gay groups wanted reform so that gay US citizens could sponsor their spouses for green cards. If the latinos and the gays sincerely teamed up it could have had a much better shot at getting off the ground but the anti-gay latino Catholic head honchos had a dummy spit, rejected the gays completely and called what they were asking for "an insult", and in the end nobody got anything.

When the weak groups fight amongst themselves instead of fighting against the group in charge, the group in charge stays in charge and the weak stay weak. That's exactly why organisations like NOM and their fundamentalist brethren try to divide us, of course.

TheStatutoryApe:
And if they agree with that agenda then what exactly are they supposed to "wake up" to?

very few people are "alright" with the idea they are being manipulated.

TheStatutoryApe:
I am wondering about how Mexico's politics and political system work. From what I understand there is a lot of homophobia in Mexico and it has a much higher rate of violence against homosexuals than the US, including outright targeted murder.

Honestly, I don't know enough about Mexico either, I know that their violent crime rates are higher across the board though, and I'm not sure how anti-gay hate crimes fit into that.

I'm not exaggerating when I say that the US is pretty much dead last among the advanced democracies when it comes to legal gay equality and acceptance, though, and the fact that Mexico is still emerging from being a developing country, it might not be fair to judge it on the same level as the US.

ten.to.ten:

TheStatutoryApe:
I am wondering about how Mexico's politics and political system work. From what I understand there is a lot of homophobia in Mexico and it has a much higher rate of violence against homosexuals than the US, including outright targeted murder.

Honestly, I don't know enough about Mexico either, I know that their violent crime rates are higher across the board though, and I'm not sure how anti-gay hate crimes fit into that.

I'm not exaggerating when I say that the US is pretty much dead last among the advanced democracies when it comes to legal gay equality and acceptance, though, and the fact that Mexico is still emerging from being a developing country, it might not be fair to judge it on the same level as the US.

I really ought to do some reading about my neighbours. Over 80% of the population is apparently Roman Catholic. The decision to allow gay marriage does not seem to be indicative of the feelings of the inhabitants of the country as a whole. I am wondering if allegations of there being a significant "underclass" in Mexico that are actively discriminated against, and perhaps disfranchised, is true.

Ok, I did a quick search.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Mexico
It appears that same sex marriage has only been legalized in Mexico City and same sex unions legalized in Coahuila. Other Mexican states do not allow same sex unions and some have even outright banned them. Their Supreme Court has ruled that same sex unions and marriages are to be recognized legally in all of Mexico though they are not required to allow them. So they are in a very similar situation as the US on the legal front it seems. Its just that their court cases have already gone to the Supreme Court and been ruled upon. According to the Constitution any marriage in any state must be recognized by every other state so I can not imagine that the DOMA will stand up for much longer. We'll see.

TheStatutoryApe:

cobra_ky:
this ought to be a wake-up call to black and latino activists that their culture is being coopted to serve a right-wing political agenda.

And if they agree with that agenda then what exactly are they supposed to "wake up" to?

The existence of the LGBTQ blacks and latinos already living in their communities.

Sleekit:

Amnestic:
These guys are looking out for the family

as my mum is given to say, seeing as my brother is gay, do they think gay people sprout from the ground ?

anti-gay is anti-family.

because, shock horror, gay people have familys.

When I read the first sentance I thought you were going to do the whole thing in rhyme. :(

But thats absolutely true. But I guess these morons are of the `kick them out the family` mentality, which I hate. Yay for supportive families.

I love when members of ethnic minorities come out against gay marriage.

Turn the clock back a few decades and they couldn't have gotten married to whoever they wanted either.

Just goes to show, when people say "equality" what they often mean is "I want stuff for the group I identify with, and everyone else can gtfo".

TheStatutoryApe:

ten.to.ten:
I wanted to add, though, what I find the funniest is their "international approach" thing with latinos. Mexico and Argentina have gay marriage and Brazil and Colombia have civil unions, the four biggest countries in Latin America are doing a lot better than the United States of America when it comes to gay equality. It's like right-wing Americans forget that the rest of the world isn't as conservative as they are.

I am wondering about how Mexico's politics and political system work. From what I understand there is a lot of homophobia in Mexico and it has a much higher rate of violence against homosexuals than the US, including outright targeted murder.

cobra_ky:
this ought to be a wake-up call to black and latino activists that their culture is being coopted to serve a right-wing political agenda.

And if they agree with that agenda then what exactly are they supposed to "wake up" to?

That they're a bigoted little shit who needs to evaluate their worth to the world? Yep, that sounds about right. I'm done with the equivocation, I've had enough of being told that I have to respect the vile beliefs of religion- or ignorance-addled minds; I can never say with 100% certainty that the religious motivations behind these fucktards is wrong, merely ludicrously unlikely, but I can say that anyone who agrees with an agenda which exists solely to remove rights from a group or prevent them from acquiring those rights, is a worthless human being.

Opinions CAN be wrong.

Magichead:
That they're a bigoted little shit who needs to evaluate their worth to the world? Yep, that sounds about right. I'm done with the equivocation, I've had enough of being told that I have to respect the vile beliefs of religion- or ignorance-addled minds; I can never say with 100% certainty that the religious motivations behind these fucktards is wrong, merely ludicrously unlikely, but I can say that anyone who agrees with an agenda which exists solely to remove rights from a group or prevent them from acquiring those rights, is a worthless human being.

Opinions CAN be wrong.

In the mean time I am sure that calling them bigoted little shits is totally going to sway them to your side yeah? They exist. They have a right to participate in politics. They are going to slow down your attempts to get those things that you want. If you try to appeal to people rather than demonize them and treat them like scum you are probably far more likely to get somewhere. Otherwise you can just flip the bird and continue waiting for the world to change on its own.

Sleekit:
people who bullied my brother used to always seem quite shocked his retribution came with 5 straight brothers attached...

i even had guys going like "but comon man he's a poof..." to me...his brother...as if that made beating him up ok and i'd just go "oh ok, alright then" as opposed to beating the shit out them for daring to touch MY little brother...

And Fair Fuck's to ya, thay are being Massive pricks to make up for their lack of Pricks.

OT: If Om nom N.O.M. was being investigated for donor disclosure violations, how'd they get these Memo's?

Oirish_Martin:
Just goes to show, when people say "equality" what they often mean is "I want stuff for the group I identify with, and everyone else can gtfo".

Not always, but yeah, far too often. And they won't ever admit it when they do.

*sigh*

These people piss me off. Gays are people too, ya know.

Also, their right to religious freedom stops where it infringes on other people's rights. Otherwise, arresting fundamentalist suicide bomber people, or arresting ritual sacrifice cults people would be against religious freedom too!

...Maybe I should found a religion where the main tenet is to hurl piss and turds at the homes of known fundamentalists, and cry "YOU'RE VIOLATING MY RELIGIOUS FREEDOMS!!!" whenever we get arrested...Seems like I could get away with it, under their logic.

Amnestic:

:P

*cracks up*

Oh that was good! XD

TheStatutoryApe:
I really ought to do some reading about my neighbours. Over 80% of the population is apparently Roman Catholic. The decision to allow gay marriage does not seem to be indicative of the feelings of the inhabitants of the country as a whole. I am wondering if allegations of there being a significant "underclass" in Mexico that are actively discriminated against, and perhaps disfranchised, is true.

Ok, I did a quick search.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Mexico
It appears that same sex marriage has only been legalized in Mexico City and same sex unions legalized in Coahuila. Other Mexican states do not allow same sex unions and some have even outright banned them. Their Supreme Court has ruled that same sex unions and marriages are to be recognized legally in all of Mexico though they are not required to allow them. So they are in a very similar situation as the US on the legal front it seems. Its just that their court cases have already gone to the Supreme Court and been ruled upon. According to the Constitution any marriage in any state must be recognized by every other state so I can not imagine that the DOMA will stand up for much longer. We'll see.

Yeah, while it's only performed in Mexico City, Mexico City same-sex marriages are recognised in all Mexican states and on the federal level. I'm sure others will have different views on how much of a victory this is, but from the perspective of someone who's gay himself, if all I had to do to get formal nationwide recognition for my relationship with my American partner was travel to Washington, DC I would not care in the slightest. As it stands now though, gay Americans who live in Massachusetts have fewer rights than gay Mexicans who live anywhere outside of Mexico City.

If the US was in a better position, had a non-partisan Supreme Court and didn't have the kind of widespread religious fundamentalism that it does, a result like that of Mexico would be a foregone conclusion considering how similarly their federations are set up, but I'll believe it when it happens. I'm not going to put a whole lot of stock in a country that created DOMA, has had 30 of its states modify their constitutions to ban same-sex marriage, and took until 2003 to allow gay couples nationwide to even be able to have sex with each other without committing a crime.

Obviously Mexico isn't the best example, but a gay couple in Mexico can rest assured that legally, as long as they can take a trip to Mexico City, they can have identical rights to every other married couple in the country. Gay couples in America can't say the same. Look at it any way you want but the US is still inferior, at least legally.

As a side note, Argentina, which is also a deeply Catholic country, legalised same-sex marriage through their national legislature, so they're certainly the standard to live up to out of the countries I mentioned.

One of these days the NOM is going to build Liberty Prime to battle socialism and homosexuality.

Also, they are called the National Organization of Marriage. NOM in short. I cant take em seriously, I just cant do it. I mean, seriously. NOM?

ten.to.ten:

TheStatutoryApe:
I really ought to do some reading about my neighbours. Over 80% of the population is apparently Roman Catholic. The decision to allow gay marriage does not seem to be indicative of the feelings of the inhabitants of the country as a whole. I am wondering if allegations of there being a significant "underclass" in Mexico that are actively discriminated against, and perhaps disfranchised, is true.

Ok, I did a quick search.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Mexico
It appears that same sex marriage has only been legalized in Mexico City and same sex unions legalized in Coahuila. Other Mexican states do not allow same sex unions and some have even outright banned them. Their Supreme Court has ruled that same sex unions and marriages are to be recognized legally in all of Mexico though they are not required to allow them. So they are in a very similar situation as the US on the legal front it seems. Its just that their court cases have already gone to the Supreme Court and been ruled upon. According to the Constitution any marriage in any state must be recognized by every other state so I can not imagine that the DOMA will stand up for much longer. We'll see.

Yeah, while it's only performed in Mexico City, Mexico City same-sex marriages are recognised in all Mexican states and on the federal level. I'm sure others will have different views on how much of a victory this is, but from the perspective of someone who's gay himself, if all I had to do to get formal nationwide recognition for my relationship with my American partner was travel to Washington, DC I would not care in the slightest. As it stands now though, gay Americans who live in Massachusetts have fewer rights than gay Mexicans who live anywhere outside of Mexico City.

If the US was in a better position, had a non-partisan Supreme Court and didn't have the kind of widespread religious fundamentalism that it does, a result like that of Mexico would be a foregone conclusion considering how similarly their federations are set up, but I'll believe it when it happens. I'm not going to put a whole lot of stock in a country that created DOMA, has had 30 of its states modify their constitutions to ban same-sex marriage, and took until 2003 to allow gay couples nationwide to even be able to have sex with each other without committing a crime.

Obviously Mexico isn't the best example, but a gay couple in Mexico can rest assured that legally, as long as they can take a trip to Mexico City, they can have identical rights to every other married couple in the country. Gay couples in America can't say the same. Look at it any way you want but the US is still inferior, at least legally.

As a side note, Argentina, which is also a deeply Catholic country, legalised same-sex marriage through their national legislature, so they're certainly the standard to live up to out of the countries I mentioned.

You are exaggerating. Only 26% of the US pop are Evangelicals and not all of them are fundies. Also the "Conservative" stack in the Supreme Court is primarily in reference to their approach to law. "Conservative" in this sense does not mean the same thing as "Conservative" in the political sense though they often go hand in hand. Either way the report of judicial conservatism in the SCOTUS is not about partisanship though I am sure that plenty of people who have no idea what they are talking about will paint it that way.

And you are probably less likely to be murdered for being gay in the US than in Mexico.
http://latindispatch.com/2011/08/04/mexicos-lgbt-community-faces-violence-despite-major-gains-in-civil-rights/

I'm not trying to say there are no problems here, that things are fine and peachy, but so many people seem to think that things here are so much worse than they really are. Apparently the rights of Mexican gay couples are so much more well protected while they are being murdered and their "hate crimes" bureau apparently can't find it within themselves to so much as report the cases that are printed in the newspapers. The comparison is really kind of disgusting.

well then arent they a screwed up evil little bunch

TheStatutoryApe:
You are exaggerating. Only 26% of the US pop are Evangelicals and not all of them are fundies. Also the "Conservative" stack in the Supreme Court is primarily in reference to their approach to law. "Conservative" in this sense does not mean the same thing as "Conservative" in the political sense though they often go hand in hand. Either way the report of judicial conservatism in the SCOTUS is not about partisanship though I am sure that plenty of people who have no idea what they are talking about will paint it that way.

And you are probably less likely to be murdered for being gay in the US than in Mexico.
http://latindispatch.com/2011/08/04/mexicos-lgbt-community-faces-violence-despite-major-gains-in-civil-rights/

I'm not trying to say there are no problems here, that things are fine and peachy, but so many people seem to think that things here are so much worse than they really are. Apparently the rights of Mexican gay couples are so much more well protected while they are being murdered and their "hate crimes" bureau apparently can't find it within themselves to so much as report the cases that are printed in the newspapers. The comparison is really kind of disgusting.

I don't know what evangelicals specifically have to do with it, lots of religions and religious people have fundamental objections to gay relationships. Some states voted as high as in the 80% range in support of constitutionally banning gays from having any sort of relationship recognition, obviously if it was just the evangelicals they would have never passed.

I'll admit that I probably used the wrong word, and that I should have expanded on what I meant a bit more, the US Supreme Court justices obviously don't follow a platform set out by a political party but it would be denying reality to say that there isn't a fierce "conservative" and "liberal" ideological divide among the justices on highly politicised social issues. If you think this kind of thing is normal, it isn't, other countries aren't like this.

If you want to go on about hate crimes, keep in mind that federally in America it wasn't until 2009 that sexual orientation (actual or perceived) and gender identity were covered in the hate crime laws. I never denied that Mexico has a lot of crime, I don't know the figures and they would probably be hard to calculate anyway but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that America has less anti-gay hate crime than Mexico. It's not nearly on the same level of development that America is, it's going to be inferior in many aspects, especially crime levels and the reporting of crimes. But this makes it all the more puzzling why it took the US more than 100 years longer than Mexico to decriminalise gay sex and still treats as null and void same-sex marriages valid in the states they're performed in.

If you're asking me, as a gay man, which country would I rather live in, the USA or Mexico, obviously the answer is the USA. That's the thing though, if I tried to live in the USA the government would deport me because I have no right to be there, considering my partner is of the same sex as me and therefore we're not legally family and don't qualify for him to sponsor me.

I don't want to detail the agonisingly slow history of getting any sort of gay rights progress in the US, but the US has been late to just about every gay rights milestone compared to the rest of the West and sometimes parts of the developing world. It's utterly shameful that the US doesn't have at least civil unions yet, and again, until it's taken to the Supreme Court it never will considering that something like 20 states constitutionally ban civil unions too. Other federations, like Mexico and Australia that don't have gay marriage or civil unions in every state at least have federal recognition and America can't even do that. The world is moving on and the US is struggling to catch up. You've just been defending your county against Mexico, for Christ's sake, land of the free, home of the brave, greatest country in the world and all that, you shouldn't have to explain why your country denying the reality of loving gay families is as embarrassing as it looks like and that at least you're not as bad as Mexico

I think this quote sums up my opinion on NOM quite well:

Walter Olson, gay dad:
To me the most striking detail was that NOM had budgeted $120,000 for a project to locate children of gay households willing to denounce their parents on camera. Whenever I hear NOM described as 'pro-family' from now on, I will think of that fact.

'Nuff said...

The Gentleman:
I think this quote sums up my opinion on NOM quite well:

Walter Olson, gay dad:
To me the most striking detail was that NOM had budgeted $120,000 for a project to locate children of gay households willing to denounce their parents on camera. Whenever I hear NOM described as 'pro-family' from now on, I will think of that fact.

'Nuff said...

That's really fucked up.

Sleekit:

Amnestic:
These guys are looking out for the family

as my mum is given to say, seeing as my brother is gay, do they think gay people sprout from the ground ?

anti-gay is anti-family.

because, shock horror, gay people have familys.

Lots of this.
I personally think that any anti-gay position is fundamentally a position of assholes. It's a position that has no reasonable backing, and the entire point is to bully a bunch of people to inflate egos. So NOM can fuck right off.

Those people down south should really just grow a pair, stop whining, and follow the lead of us reasonable people up here in Canada.

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