Church abducts youths to show 'religious persecution'.

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Article

Makeup of the article seems a little bit confusing, but the points are all still there. I bolded what I think is the most important part.

Honestly? I'm having trouble finding adequate words for this.

But let's start with "What the actual fuck?" Wikipedia tells me 7th grade is about 12-13. I'm honestly on the fence about referring to them as 'kids' or 'teens' but either way...seriously...what the actual fuck?

Who thought this was a good idea? Why would they continue to think this is a good idea? Would anyone actually step up to defend this?

There is just so much wrong with this, I'm not sure where to begin. It's dangerous, it's emotionally abusive, and it has fuck all to do with the idea of persecution.

So Church-people dressed up like the Atheist-Gestapo? To show them how horrible American Religious Persecution is?

image

When is the last time 12/13 year old children were abducted because of their believes?

well he can actually be arrested since what he did was very well against the law. hopefully after this no one will join his third party church.

Good thing none of those kids were packing heat, the way some people say EVERYONE should for self-defense. That would've gotten even uglier.

Err... Maybe I'm missing something here, but what exactly does this have to do with "religious persecution"? I mean, holy fuck!

@Arbane: I have to disagree; one of them packing heat would've taught a FAR more valuable lesson to the church than these children could have learned.

Just from my initial reading...this is nuts, how was this supposed to teach the kids anything?

I think that pastor is really honest, trying to educate children about how much religious persecution is being done by churches like his.

But the methods are a bit overdone. I mean, he can also just tell the children that churches persecute people, often even over who they are, and they should really consider if they want to be part of an institution that causes that to happen sooner or later.

arbane:
Good thing none of those kids were packing heat, the way some people say EVERYONE should for self-defense. That would've gotten even uglier.

Kids are not allowed to carry firearms, ever, in the United States. That being said, in this particular incident, it would have been better if they did.

This does not create church loving Christians, this creates internet atheists.

Seekster:
Just from my initial reading...this is nuts, how was this supposed to teach the kids anything?

It teaches kids to never trust authority, that religious figures can be exceedingly cruel and that all those people that want to separate the church from the state are on to something.

I have not seen a misfire like this since my Skaven Doomwheel from Warhammer Fantasy got a misfire and veered to a random direction, crushing my Grey Seer who was also the general.

Bassik:

this creates internet atheists.

Why the qualifier?

Amnestic:

Bassik:

this creates internet atheists.

Why the qualifier?

We're only pretending to be atheists on the internet because it's cool, edgy and deep, obviously.

Bassik:

arbane:
Good thing none of those kids were packing heat, the way some people say EVERYONE should for self-defense. That would've gotten even uglier.

Kids are not allowed to carry firearms, ever, in the United States. That being said, in this particular incident, it would have been better if they did.

This does not create church loving Christians, this creates internet atheists.

Seekster:
Just from my initial reading...this is nuts, how was this supposed to teach the kids anything?

It teaches kids to never trust authority, that religious figures can be exceedingly cruel and that all those people that want to separate the church from the state are on to something.

I have not seen a misfire like this since my Skaven Doomwheel from Warhammer Fantasy got a misfire and veered to a random direction, crushing my Grey Seer who was also the general.

That should teach you-you from playing as-as ratties, the chaos a skaven army can wreak upon itself is amazing. At my local GW when they re-released the skaven we had a massive 10,000 pts skaven vs empire and dwarfs and in the first skaven turn they lost at least 2000pts to misfires including a verminlord lost to 2 warp lightning cannons one right after another.

And OT honestly i'm not even that suprised that a pastor thought this was a good idea just slightly more disapointed with religious folk than 5 mins ago.

It is abit like trying to teach kids about gravity by dropping stones on their heads.

Idiots.

Article:

A youth group leader said the exercise was never meant to horrify the youth.

Bullshit. If it wasn't meant to horrify the youth, then the exercise served no purpose. Surely they don't expect us to believe they went through all of this just to make the kids like religious persecution. They wanted the kids to experience horror. They just didn't respect their students enough to think through the consequences of that choice.

The pastor and the leaders of that class need to spend time in jail so they can get their heads out of their asses. There are any number of ways to understand religious persecution, most notably by actually studying real-world cases where it happens. The only reasons I can think of that they didn't choose to go that route are: A) There are too many examples in history of Christians being on the ugly side of religious persecution, or B) they think their children are so self-absorbed and lacking in empathy that they're incapable of feeling for people who have experienced religious persecution unless they experience it for themselves. Or possibly C) the pastor wanted to get all cult-like and traumatize his congregation into loyalty.

Amnestic:
Article

Makeup of the article seems a little bit confusing, but the points are all still there. I bolded what I think is the most important part.

Honestly? I'm having trouble finding adequate words for this.

But let's start with "What the actual fuck?" Wikipedia tells me 7th grade is about 12-13. I'm honestly on the fence about referring to them as 'kids' or 'teens' but either way...seriously...what the actual fuck?

Who thought this was a good idea? Why would they continue to think this is a good idea? Would anyone actually step up to defend this?

"I'm not allowed to force other people's kids to stop learning to pray to my god! I'm not allowed to tell my children to beat the shit out of other people's kids if they're different! I'm not allowed to slap my symbols all over other people's kid's place of education to intimidate them away from education! It's exactly the same as if they had murdered me!"

Fuck you Pastor.

Danyal:
So Church-people dressed up like the Atheist-Gestapo? To show them how horrible American Religious Persecution is?

image

When is the last time 12/13 year old children were abducted because of their believes?

Mine? Never. But if you go to mainland China and say that your are a Tibetan monk/nun or that you practice Falun Gong, see what happens. Heck just look up how the last Dali Lama was abducted by the CCP and how they refuse to tell anybody where he or his family is.

....Que?

What the bloody hell was the point of that? To teach the kids that "Oh no! Evil atheist/state people might possibly kidnap and detain/torture you because you're Christian?"

If that's the case, they can go !@#$ themselves. This is retarded, and insane. This is right up there with that "exorcism" crap some of these nutjobs pull.

I mean....What the hell, who thought this was a good idea?!

This is why I HATE HATE HATE fundamentalists, and hope they all suffer excessive misfortune. Because they are insane and dangerous.

April fools joke?

Samurai Silhouette:
April fools joke?

Article dated 23rd March and updated 3 days later. I wish the article was an April Fool's joke (not a particularly funny one, but still), but it sadly seems to be quite true.

Stagnant:
Err... Maybe I'm missing something here, but what exactly does this have to do with "religious persecution"? I mean, holy fuck!

You know, like if Comrade Obama started rounding up Christians. WHICH HE WILL. Or so Right Wing Christians say...

Damien Granz:
"I'm not allowed to force other people's kids to stop learning to pray to my god! I'm not allowed to tell my children to beat the shit out of other people's kids if they're different! I'm not allowed to slap my symbols all over other people's kid's place of education to intimidate them away from education! It's exactly the same as if they had murdered me!"

Fuck you Pastor.

You would have a much more relevant point if you would choose not to just make up shit that wasn't in the article and just pretend it applies.

One would think this story is terrible enough without needing to just invent accusations to make it worse. But then maybe I'm wrong, and showing everyone your personal axe to grind on the internet is more important that relating to an actual news event that happened.

Katatori-kun:

You would have a much more relevant point if you would choose not to just make up shit that wasn't in the article and just pretend it applies.

One would think this story is terrible enough without needing to just invent accusations to make it worse. But then maybe I'm wrong, and showing everyone your personal axe to grind on the internet is more important that relating to an actual news event that happened.

Fine, find me a more relevant example of 'persecution' then the above, that religious Christians in Pennsylvania have to put up with, then. By all means.

Religion: making good people do insane s#%t for "good" reasons since XXXX BC.

OT: I can see how this would teach about persecution, but I cannot see how it can be tied to persecution based on religion. I would suspect that the "kidnappers" would have had some dialogue which made that apparent, but it does not appear to have made it into the article.

Katatori-kun:
You would have a much more relevant point if you would choose not to just make up shit that wasn't in the article and just pretend it applies.

One would think this story is terrible enough without needing to just invent accusations to make it worse. But then maybe I'm wrong, and showing everyone your personal axe to grind on the internet is more important that relating to an actual news event that happened.

But it's neither pretending nor inventing. Those are almost exactly the complaints most right-wing Christians will bring to the table (albeit they frame it differently) when you ask them how they're being "oppressed". It's not a huge leap in logic to go from that to claiming that this Christian group is trying to equate them.

Stagnant:

Katatori-kun:
You would have a much more relevant point if you would choose not to just make up shit that wasn't in the article and just pretend it applies.

One would think this story is terrible enough without needing to just invent accusations to make it worse. But then maybe I'm wrong, and showing everyone your personal axe to grind on the internet is more important that relating to an actual news event that happened.

But it's neither pretending nor inventing. Those are almost exactly the complaints most right-wing Christians will bring to the table (albeit they frame it differently) when you ask them how they're being "oppressed". It's not a huge leap in logic to go from that to claiming that this Christian group is trying to equate them.

Unless either of you have clear evidence that the pastor who organized this mock abduction made those specific complaints, yes, it is pretending and inventing. It's lying. It's deceitfully passing off a stereotype based on a variety of religious figures as applying to a specific person with zero evidence that it is relevant. Are you guys so insecure about the attention you get as atheists that you need to co-opt a real story about real people getting traumatized just so you can make it into a myth that you can't even show actually happened?

Damien Granz:

Katatori-kun:

You would have a much more relevant point if you would choose not to just make up shit that wasn't in the article and just pretend it applies.

One would think this story is terrible enough without needing to just invent accusations to make it worse. But then maybe I'm wrong, and showing everyone your personal axe to grind on the internet is more important that relating to an actual news event that happened.

Fine, find me a more relevant example of 'persecution' then the above, that religious Christians in Pennsylvania have to put up with, then. By all means.

Maybe they weren't trying to emulate American persecution? Maybe they were trying to show the students about persecution of Christian congregation in developing countries?

This was a terrible execution, but I don't think it's particularly uncommon for Christians to be educated about what's going on to other churches around the world.

EClaris:

Maybe they weren't trying to emulate American persecution? Maybe they were trying to show the students about persecution of Christian congregation in developing countries?

This was a terrible execution, but I don't think it's particularly uncommon for Christians to be educated about what's going on to other churches around the world.

Sure. Or maybe he staged armed men kidnapping and injuring children as a very loose interpretative way to demonstrate to them the religious persecution of atheists throughout history, because I bet that was what it was. Or maybe he was trying to demonstrate the persecution of workers or the need for OSHA, because while we're making excuses for him we might as well make them the best ones we can.

Damien Granz:

EClaris:

Maybe they weren't trying to emulate American persecution? Maybe they were trying to show the students about persecution of Christian congregation in developing countries?

This was a terrible execution, but I don't think it's particularly uncommon for Christians to be educated about what's going on to other churches around the world.

Sure. Or maybe he staged armed men kidnapping and injuring children as a very loose interpretative way to demonstrate to them the religious persecution of atheists throughout history, because I bet that was what it was. Or maybe he was trying to demonstrate the persecution of workers or the need for OSHA, because while we're making excuses for him we might as well make them the best ones we can.

Wow, seriously? You're pulling that snide bullshit on me when I point the probably reality of that fuckery on rather than some invention constructed in your mind because these people are on a different "team" than you? The only thing I said concerning the even in question was that is had "terrible execution". Last I checked that wasn't defending them or making excuses. That's laughable. The only person who has made excuses for them in this thread is you.

EClaris:

Damien Granz:

EClaris:

Snip

Snip

Wow, seriously? You're pulling that snide bullshit on me when I point the probably reality of that fuckery on rather than some invention constructed in your mind because these people are on a different "team" than you? The only thing I said concerning the even in question was that is had "terrible execution". Last I checked that wasn't defending them or making excuses. That's laughable. The only person who has made excuses for them in this thread is you.

I agree, I don't approve of many of the practices of the christian church but this story obviously as nothing to do with that debate. Obviously this was the work of someone who's clearly out of his mind and whether that is a symptom of his particular faith is not relevant.

Yeah, throw them in jail unless they can prove parental consent that reasonably extended to tying up the kids and throwing them in a van.

As for indoctrination of children being a religious favourite? Hardly newsworthy.

yes i agree with the pastor that its a perfect lesson in reglisious persecution. its cruel that his religion persecuted those children to teach them a lesson

Imperator_DK:
Yeah, throw them in jail unless they can prove parental consent that reasonably extended to tying up the kids and throwing them in a van.

As for indoctrination of children being a religious favourite? Hardly newsworthy.

And if they can prove parental consent, throw them and the parents in jail.

nyysjan:

Imperator_DK:
Yeah, throw them in jail unless they can prove parental consent that reasonably extended to tying up the kids and throwing them in a van.

As for indoctrination of children being a religious favourite? Hardly newsworthy.

And if they can prove parental consent, throw them and the parents in jail.

Uh... no. If there is (specific enough) parental consent, such an activity is within their rights. Besides, scaring the shit out of your children helps build their character. ;)

Katatori-kun:
Idiots.

Article:

A youth group leader said the exercise was never meant to horrify the youth.

Bullshit. If it wasn't meant to horrify the youth, then the exercise served no purpose. Surely they don't expect us to believe they went through all of this just to make the kids like religious persecution. They wanted the kids to experience horror. They just didn't respect their students enough to think through the consequences of that choice.

The pastor and the leaders of that class need to spend time in jail so they can get their heads out of their asses. There are any number of ways to understand religious persecution, most notably by actually studying real-world cases where it happens. The only reasons I can think of that they didn't choose to go that route are: A) There are too many examples in history of Christians being on the ugly side of religious persecution, or B) they think their children are so self-absorbed and lacking in empathy that they're incapable of feeling for people who have experienced religious persecution unless they experience it for themselves. Or possibly C) the pastor wanted to get all cult-like and traumatize his congregation into loyalty.

Note the name of the group that did this-- Assemblies of God is just about ground zero for Dominionism and working toward theocracy in the US. They believe that a secular society is de facto persecution against Christians, because this is a Christian nation and was intended to be governed biblically. This is one case where I feel *very* comfortable generalizing, because AoG is an active menace to everyone who does not believe as they do, and this is yet another example. The only real religious persecution when it comes to the AoG in the US is persecution *by* them of others.

I'd love to see actual legal repercussions for this, but I have a feeling the DA's office is going to be as spineless as they usually are when it comes to Dominionist trouble-making.

nyysjan:

Imperator_DK:
Yeah, throw them in jail unless they can prove parental consent that reasonably extended to tying up the kids and throwing them in a van.

As for indoctrination of children being a religious favourite? Hardly newsworthy.

And if they can prove parental consent, throw them and the parents in jail.

You can't legally get groups like this on forced exorcisms for LGBT teens and similar incredibly psychologically and physically abusive "youth group" events, so I'd be shocked if they can get them on this. The US generally avoids prosecuting abusive cult activity, even when there's a mountain of evidence.

Seanchaidh:
Uh... no. If there is (specific enough) parental consent, such an activity is within their rights.

No, that is not how it works at all. You can't just do anything you want to a kid as long as you have parental consent. You can't physically abuse and intimidate a kid, then get away with it just because you have parental content. Parents can't authorize anyone to actually commit crimes against their children. You can sign all the permission slips you want, but you still can't waiver your children's legal rights.

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