What is gay "pride"?

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Silvianoshei:

So being gay naturally feminizes men, and being a lesbian naturally emasuclates women, to some extent? Interesting. I guess I never saw it that way. This is actually really brilliant, my whole view on this topic has changed. So I want to make sure I'm getting it right, your saying it's not about "We're normal, just like you." its more "We're fundamentally different, but we want everyone to be ok with that." You're saying that despite the normality of some, homosexuality does infact define a significant part of who you are, and by extension so does everyones' sexuality, including straight people. That's so true if you think about it. Sexuality is such a huge part of our modern culture, that it would be impossible for it to take a backseat in anyone's life.

Wow. Acceptance without conformity to any extent. That's brilliant, but much more radical. How does the LGBT community intend to accomplish that? I mean, you're talking about changing how society at large views subcultures, and on the individual level, how people interact with each other and the assumptions they make.

Edit: As a Muslim, this would be nice to see someday. "I'm here, I practice my religion, I'm not bothering you, so please just leave me alone" seems to be the slogan of the American Muslim community these days...kudos to the LGBT community for being brave.

More so that simply BEING gay or lesbian means that you are fundamentally different from others. It does not really matter how that 'being' manifests itself. So long as you are on this Earth where people are hetero, you will not be like them, and that will always define you whether you like it or not.

Nibbles:

More so that simply BEING gay or lesbian means that you are fundamentally different from others. It does not really matter how that 'being' manifests itself. So long as you are on this Earth where people are hetero, you will not be like them, and that will always define you whether you like it or not.

What if you're bisexual or pan/omnisexual? How do they factor in?

*sigh* I wish I was different in that way...it sure would be nice.

ReservoirAngel:

Silvianoshei:

[quote="Silvianoshei" post="528.363964.14240329"]You're right. I don't have to deal with that sort of stereotype. That last point is critical though, particularly the flaunting and self-sterotyping thing. Why exactly does that conversation get on your nerves? Are you spending too much time talking to idiots (not healthy, ya know)? I assure you I'm not going to go that way...

It gets on my nerves because it's one of those points that the people I end up arguing this with never fully understand. Yes we're stereotyping ourselves, but what they don't understand is that that's kind of the point. The entire idea of gay pride is to put ourselves out there and make it clear that we exist and we won't just be ignored or marginalised. That wouldn't work if it was just a bunch of "normal"-looking and "normal"-acting guys walking around holding hands.

To get people's attention, you need to present a spectacle. So that's what happens. We make it so it's pretty difficult NOT to notice it. So that people know it's happening.

I know I'm a bit late to this party but I'm just gonna leave this here, let me know if you think it might be relevant...

Valis88:

Nibbles:

More so that simply BEING gay or lesbian means that you are fundamentally different from others. It does not really matter how that 'being' manifests itself. So long as you are on this Earth where people are hetero, you will not be like them, and that will always define you whether you like it or not.

What if you're bisexual or pan/omnisexual? How do they factor in?

*sigh* I wish I was different in that way...it sure would be nice.

Exact same way; the simple state of being one of those means that you are not like the others.

I think that it is being proud of having the strength to admit what you are (sexual orientation-wise and behavior-wise) whether that be gay, bisexual, transsexual, etc. Proud of being able to admit who you truly are despite the fact that some people may look down on you and tell you that you're wrong or downright evil for it, despite it being a natural process. It is natural and shouldn't be viewed as anything other than uncommon seeing as the majority of the population is, probably, straight and public displays of affection among those who aren't straight are, honestly, uncommon.

People should not be judged for what they cannot control, whether it is race, sex, genetic disorders, place of origin, bloodline, upbringing, sexual orientation, and other physical traits (to an extent, I suppose, for some of these).

Relish in Chaos:
But you're technically privileged. You get much more representation in media and whatnot than any black or gay people would do. The most you'd get is that token black person as part of an ensemble, and if not that, some crappy Tyler Perry film that only further enforces the stereotypes.

Trust me, you shouldn't envy me. I envy [/i]you[/i] because you're white and likely a whole lot more secure about your race than me. It's not about pride of culture, because not every black or gay person is proud of their culture, and not every black person nods to "a brother" on the street. If anyone ever did that to me, I'd personally feel offended. I mean, they're a complete stranger who doesn't know me, yet they feel we're somehow friends or some shit like that just because we share the same skin or colour? No, fuck that.

I feel like black people have been tainted by big media and African-American culture. I literally find it painful to even sit through an episode of The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, because I know that that's what a lot of people think black people are like. I'm not. I don't wear caps. I'm not into sports. I'm not attracted to black women. I hang out with white people. But because of things like that, I feel that I've lost any sense of identity that I may've had before.

It burns me too, because I'll never know what it's like to be white. Even though I've grown up around white people all my life, I'm still "that black guy", usually token black guy/non-white in many of my classes at school. But I wouldn't care if I had black guys around me, because even then, I get nervous because I don't want to be associated with them; I don't want some idiot to walk up to me and go, "Hey, you're both black! You must be brothers!" I'm what you'd call "a white man in a black man's body".

I don't understand why you wouldn't want to be accepted. Don't take the ability to walk around the street without having fear of someone smashing you over the head because of something different in you that you have no control over. At least in this case, there are much more advantages than disadvantages to being a majority. But I guess there are pros and cons no matter where you are and what you do. Eminem, a straight white guy, was discriminated against because he was the minority: a white rapper who grew up in Detroit, which is predominantly black.

I dunno, maybe both of us are exaggerating our experiences. I guess it could be worse. But then, it could be better. But, unfortunately, these are the cards we've been dealt. If I had it my way, everyone would be free, equal and no-one would have to suffer. But that's just a dream. The reality is: the world's depressing and shitty and for some fucked-up reason to which there's seemingly no answer to, there's nothing anyone can or will do about it.

It's not that unusual for people that know they are privileged for feel oddly jealous of people that aren't.

Being privileged means you don't have to understand people that aren't, but even if you want to, you never completely will. You'll always be excluded to some extent because of that. Now, actually wanting to give up privilege because of that is fairly extreme, though I can understand wanting to stop one's privilege being an issue.

On the other hand, non-privileged people are so wonderfull strange and exotic, they make a great touristy sort of experience to certain privileged folk.

Of course, even without straight privilege there's still oodles of prejudices you can harbour anyway.

thaluikhain:

It's not that unusual for people that know they are privileged for feel oddly jealous of people that aren't.

Being privileged means you don't have to understand people that aren't, but even if you want to, you never completely will. You'll always be excluded to some extent because of that. Now, actually wanting to give up privilege because of that is fairly extreme, though I can understand wanting to stop one's privilege being an issue.

On the other hand, non-privileged people are so wonderfull strange and exotic, they make a great touristy sort of experience to certain privileged folk.

Of course, even without straight privilege there's still oodles of prejudices you can harbour anyway.

That's the thing. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it!

I don't want to be the disease that is 'privileged' I don't want to be the monster that my skin and my orientation has produced.

I don't want to be white, I don't want o be straight, I don't want this horrible privilege. I don't want to be a bad person.

I'm a monster, a disease, a horrible person, and all I did was be born.

What can I do?! Tell me please! What can I do to change something, anything, anything at all to not be evil!

Please.

Valis88:

thaluikhain:

It's not that unusual for people that know they are privileged for feel oddly jealous of people that aren't.

Being privileged means you don't have to understand people that aren't, but even if you want to, you never completely will. You'll always be excluded to some extent because of that. Now, actually wanting to give up privilege because of that is fairly extreme, though I can understand wanting to stop one's privilege being an issue.

On the other hand, non-privileged people are so wonderfull strange and exotic, they make a great touristy sort of experience to certain privileged folk.

Of course, even without straight privilege there's still oodles of prejudices you can harbour anyway.

That's the thing. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it!

I don't want to be the disease that is 'privileged' I don't want to be the monster that my skin and my orientation has produced.

I don't want to be white, I don't want o be straight, I don't want this horrible privilege. I don't want to be a bad person.

I'm a monster, a disease, a horrible person, and all I did was be born.

What can I do?! Tell me please! What can I do to change something, anything, anything at all to not be evil!

Please.

Well, you can't, not totally.

On the other hand, though, you'll not find one person on this planet who is totally free from some prejudice. All the people we admire, that we hold up as exemplars are still human and flawed in some way.

Privilege on its own isn't so great a problem, really, it's unexamined privileged that's a worry.

As long as you are aware of your privilege, you can do fairly well at stopping it determining how you act. It's something you'll always have to work at, you will get it wrong sometimes, but it can be done.

thaluikhain:

Well, you can't, not totally.

On the other hand, though, you'll not find one person on this planet who is totally free from some prejudice. All the people we admire, that we hold up as exemplars are still human and flawed in some way.

Privilege on its own isn't so great a problem, really, it's unexamined privileged that's a worry.

As long as you are aware of your privilege, you can do fairly well at stopping it determining how you act. It's something you'll always have to work at, you will get it wrong sometimes, but it can be done.

So I'll always be a monster by default? Their's nothing I can do about it?

What if i bow my head respectfully around those whom I deem superior to myself? And speak meek and mild as not to draw attention to myself at all times? If I let others take president over me, will that make it all better?

I hate myself so much, and no I just hate myself more...I wish there was some day to not be a loathsome demon, a disease to greater peoples.

Valis88:

thaluikhain:

Well, you can't, not totally.

On the other hand, though, you'll not find one person on this planet who is totally free from some prejudice. All the people we admire, that we hold up as exemplars are still human and flawed in some way.

Privilege on its own isn't so great a problem, really, it's unexamined privileged that's a worry.

As long as you are aware of your privilege, you can do fairly well at stopping it determining how you act. It's something you'll always have to work at, you will get it wrong sometimes, but it can be done.

So I'll always be a monster by default? Their's nothing I can do about it?

What if i bow my head respectfully around those whom I deem superior to myself? And speak meek and mild as not to draw attention to myself at all times? If I let others take president over me, will that make it all better?

I hate myself so much, and no I just hate myself more...I wish there was some day to not be a loathsome demon, a disease to greater peoples.

I'm not saying you default to monster, merely that you, like the rest of the human race, will have to be content with being imperfect.

There are mistakes you (like everyone else) are going to make, but as long as you are aware of the problems you (and anyone else who wants to) can choose to minimise them.

Valis88:

So I'll always be a monster by default? Their's nothing I can do about it?

What if i bow my head respectfully around those whom I deem superior to myself? And speak meek and mild as not to draw attention to myself at all times? If I let others take president over me, will that make it all better?

I hate myself so much, and no I just hate myself more...I wish there was some day to not be a loathsome demon, a disease to greater peoples.

You really believe you are a living, breathing abomination because you had the sheer audacity to be born?

I refuse to accept that. There is no amount of wishing, crying, begging or screaming that is going to change the fact that you were born as a white, straight girl. Unfortunately you are going to have to accept that that is who you are.

You absolutely do not, I repeat do not have to take on burdens about race, creed, culture, history, sexuality etc. You cannot be made to apologise for any of that because all of it is completely beyond your control.

Don't waste your time and energy wishing you were of a different race or that you had a different sexuality. You will never ever be able to change these things. Instead focus on doing things that can be changed.

Campaign for gay rights, support anti-racism rally's, help out in a homeless shelter, go and spend time with other cultures on the planet and learn not what they are, but what they do, for that is what distinguishes us in the only way that truly matters.

But most importantly of all, I believe everyone has the right to take pride in themselves. Everyone has the right to accept who they are. Everyone has the right to stand up and show the world exactly what they have done to make the world a better place.

If you can learn to do that, I sincerely believe you'll end up finding yourself in the very type of community you long to be a part of.

Thank you Raven's Nest, thank you for the kind words.

NightmareWarden:
I think that it is being proud of having the strength to admit what you are (sexual orientation-wise and behavior-wise) whether that be gay, bisexual, transsexual, etc. Proud of being able to admit who you truly are despite the fact that some people may look down on you and tell you that you're wrong or downright evil for it, despite it being a natural process. It is natural and shouldn't be viewed as anything other than uncommon seeing as the majority of the population is, probably, straight and public displays of affection among those who aren't straight are, honestly, uncommon.

It's kinda sad really, I'd love to see same gender couples show more affections public. Same gender love is just as natural, and just as normal as hetero love (well to me anyways) so having it excluded from PDS is just wrong.

World of Warcraft has Pride parades as well, on the Proudmoore server. it's lots of fun, and all people are welcome (yes...even gnomes). I've attended a few, and had fun.

Silvianoshei:
So being gay naturally feminizes men, and being a lesbian naturally emasuclates women, to some extent?

I wouldn't say "naturally".

But that's inevitably how people see it and have seen it from the point at which the "condition" of homosexuality was made up (getting on for 200 years ago now). That's why it remains outright offensive and disgusting to people, even some people who have no reason to religiously object, to the point where they will aggressively attack anyone even suspected of being homosexual.

People have generally relied on gender boundaries being in some way clear cut and distinct. So men and women are distinct classes of being who are attracted to each other through natural complementarity. For men to desire other men places them in the position of being like a woman, and that's disturbing.

This idea is called "heteronormativity", I'm probably not explaining it very well so looking it up on wikipedia or something might be more informative. :P

Silvianoshei:
So I want to make sure I'm getting it right, your saying it's not about "We're normal, just like you." its more "We're fundamentally different, but we want everyone to be ok with that."

I think what you have to understand is that in this context being "normal, just like you" would mean being heterosexual.

Even if a gay person is only different in their sexual object choice, even if they're totally innocuous in every other way, they're still different enough to be discriminated against. That's the problem, and that's why Pride kind of goes out of its way to be an open celebration of difference. It's not that gay men have a special gene that makes them really flamboyant, it's that a society which can't tolerate "different" or "non-normative" behaviour probably can't really tolerate homosexuality.

Silvianoshei:
You're saying that despite the normality of some, homosexuality does infact define a significant part of who you are, and by extension so does everyones' sexuality, including straight people. That's so true if you think about it. Sexuality is such a huge part of our modern culture, that it would be impossible for it to take a backseat in anyone's life.

Exactly. :)

That's not the same as saying the stereotypes which gay people carry around are all true, but because of the demands of the society we live in, the simple difference of being attracted to the same sex instead of (or even in addition to) the opposite sex does make a big difference to your life.

And if we can only accept gay people who are not in any way stereotypical, who you don't look at or talk to and know immediately that they're gay, are we really accepting the vast majority of people who appear more "normal", or are we only accepting them to the degree that they can closet themselves?

Silvianoshei:
Wow. Acceptance without conformity to any extent. That's brilliant, but much more radical. How does the LGBT community intend to accomplish that? I mean, you're talking about changing how society at large views subcultures, and on the individual level, how people interact with each other and the assumptions they make.

Hard question.

I think that one's being going around for a few decades now and there are a range of different answers, but I think the point of the pride movement is just to create an arena where people can be visible, where the parts of their lives which are meant to be maligned and "shameful" can be seen by everyone.

I'll try and think of a better answer, but I'm fumbling a bit at the moment.

Silvianoshei:
Edit: As a Muslim, this would be nice to see someday.

I'm with you on that, and I think it will happen in time..

Basically, what I take from the pride movement is that I don't think you fix society by trying to pretend that everyone is the same or should do the same things or follow the same cultural trappings, because they're not. People who are gay are different in that they have a different sexual preference, people who are Muslim are different in that they have a different religious practice. These things can have a big influence on your life and your interaction with the culture around you.

The point is not to live in a society where we keep these things hidden so that we can stand to be around each other, but where the difference itself is okay. Being different isn't a problem, the problem is when that difference is given a weight and value which it doesn't deserve, when we assume that every gay guy covered in glitter is a deviant or every person in hijab is a crazed fanatic, rather than them just being people who are different in some ways and not in others, that's the problem.

I'm just gonna say my last bit, and bow out.

I don't believe in 'heteronormativity' at all. I really don't think that hetero 'is' the norm of anything.

Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex and transsexual people are, and should be, the normal thing in our world.

A normal, and natural part of nature....as it should be.

It's the response of a group that has been oppressed for a very long time.

The net 'pride' that should be had for things that are uncontrollable is zero.

But of course, because some groups have been mistreated for a long time, the spectacle is an attempt to cancel out the nastiness they've been met with.

It's a return to neutrality; acceptance, rather than feeling proud as if they were 'special' or better.

Valis88:
I'm just gonna say my last bit, and bow out.

I don't believe in 'heteronormativity' at all. I really don't think that hetero 'is' the norm of anything.

Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex and transsexual people are, and should be, the normal thing in our world.

A normal, and natural part of nature....as it should be.

There's a big difference between "should" and "is".

There's no particular reason why heterosexuality should dominate society to the inclusion of others. But it's generally only those in favour of that continuing to be the case that have a reason to deny that it is.

Silvianoshei:

I was utterly perplexed. I am not "proud" of being heterosexual, and I'm rather shy about parading (no pun intended) my preferential sexual activity.

Silvianoshei:
Hi to all my anthropologically enlightened escapists (and trolls)

My question is a simple one. I am a straight male, and witnessed a "gay pride" parade recently. I was utterly perplexed. I am not "proud" of being heterosexual, and I'm rather shy about parading (no pun intended) my preferential sexual activity. What exactly is gay "pride"? Is it simply mislabeled? Why would someone be proud of their sexual orientation?

I won't say "don't flame me etc." (or did I just say that?), but please keep the discussion serious and courteous.

If you wanna watch MovieBob's "Correctitude" video first, that would be helpful.

I dont get it either. I dont dislike homosexuals at all, i have gay friends and im fine with that whole thing. But i dont like gay people who flaunt it in your face and run around in assless pants and calling everyone girlfriend, and get upset if people dont agree with their lifestyle. NOT everyone is ok with gay, it dosnt make them sexist or biggoted far left nutters. so yeah...i dont get these paradrs either, im going to get a shirt that reads ''i like munching pussy''

thaluikhain:

Valis88:
I'm just gonna say my last bit, and bow out.

I don't believe in 'heteronormativity' at all. I really don't think that hetero 'is' the norm of anything.

Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex and transsexual people are, and should be, the normal thing in our world.

A normal, and natural part of nature....as it should be.

There's a big difference between "should" and "is".

There's no particular reason why heterosexuality should dominate society to the inclusion of others. But it's generally only those in favour of that continuing to be the case that have a reason to deny that it is.

I'm going to edit my rant down to this....

I don't think that hterosex is 'the norm' in nature (and it's not), no should it be the 'the norm' in society.

Is that possibly clear enough?

evilthecat:

Silvianoshei:
So being gay naturally feminizes men, and being a lesbian naturally emasuclates women, to some extent?

I wouldn't say "naturally".

But that's inevitably how people see it and have seen it from the point at which the "condition" of homosexuality was made up (getting on for 200 years ago now). That's why it remains outright offensive and disgusting to people, even some people who have no reason to religiously object, to the point where they will aggressively attack anyone even suspected of being homosexual.

People have generally relied on gender boundaries being in some way clear cut and distinct. So men and women are distinct classes of being who are attracted to each other through natural complementarity. For men to desire other men places them in the position of being like a woman, and that's disturbing.

This idea is called "heteronormativity", I'm probably not explaining it very well so looking it up on wikipedia or something might be more informative. :P

Dormin111:
So I want to make sure I'm getting it right, your saying it's not about "We're normal, just like you." its more "We're fundamentally different, but we want everyone to be ok with that."

I think what you have to understand is that in this context being "normal, just like you" would mean being heterosexual.

Even if a gay person is only different in their sexual object choice, even if they're totally innocuous in every other way, they're still different enough to be discriminated against. That's the problem, and that's why Pride kind of goes out of its way to be an open celebration of difference. It's not that gay men have a special gene that makes them really flamboyant, it's that a society which can't tolerate "different" or "non-normative" behaviour probably can't really tolerate homosexuality.

Dormin111:
You're saying that despite the normality of some, homosexuality does infact define a significant part of who you are, and by extension so does everyones' sexuality, including straight people. That's so true if you think about it. Sexuality is such a huge part of our modern culture, that it would be impossible for it to take a backseat in anyone's life.

Exactly. :)

That's not the same as saying the stereotypes which gay people carry around are all true, but because of the demands of the society we live in, the simple difference of being attracted to the same sex instead of (or even in addition to) the opposite sex does make a big difference to your life.

And if we can only accept gay people who are not in any way stereotypical, who you don't look at or talk to and know immediately that they're gay, are we really accepting the vast majority of people who appear more "normal", or are we only accepting them to the degree that they can closet themselves?

Dormin111:
Wow. Acceptance without conformity to any extent. That's brilliant, but much more radical. How does the LGBT community intend to accomplish that? I mean, you're talking about changing how society at large views subcultures, and on the individual level, how people interact with each other and the assumptions they make.

Hard question.

I think that one's being going around for a few decades now and there are a range of different answers, but I think the point of the pride movement is just to create an arena where people can be visible, where the parts of their lives which are meant to be maligned and "shameful" can be seen by everyone.

I'll try and think of a better answer, but I'm fumbling a bit at the moment.

Dormin111:
Edit: As a Muslim, this would be nice to see someday.

I'm with you on that, and I think it will happen in time..

Basically, what I take from the pride movement is that I don't think you fix society by trying to pretend that everyone is the same or should do the same things or follow the same cultural trappings, because they're not. People who are gay are different in that they have a different sexual preference, people who are Muslim are different in that they have a different religious practice. These things can have a big influence on your life and your interaction with the culture around you.

The point is not to live in a society where we keep these things hidden so that we can stand to be around each other, but where the difference itself is okay. Being different isn't a problem, the problem is when that difference is given a weight and value which it doesn't deserve, when we assume that every gay guy covered in glitter is a deviant or every person in hijab is a crazed fanatic, rather than them just being people who are different in some ways and not in others, that's the problem.

Uhhhh... Is the site glitching or something? I did not write this.

Valis88:
There's a big difference between "should" and "is".

There's no particular reason why heterosexuality should dominate society to the inclusion of others. But it's generally only those in favour of that continuing to be the case that have a reason to deny that it is.

Excuse me? Are you saying that I don't mean what I say because I used 'is' instead of 'should'.

Are you serious?

I meant every single word that I said, every, single word of that. I'm sorry if I used the wrong word, I am.

Are you really saying, that I'm in favor of hetro being the norm...because I used 'is' instead of 'should'.

Really?

I'm sorry, I had to come back because I felt the need to get that clarified.

Heterosex should not ever, ever, ever be the normal.[/quote]

No, I'm not saying that you happen to believe that.

mad_mick:
I dont get it either. I dont dislike homosexuals at all, i have gay friends and im fine with that whole thing. But i dont like gay people who flaunt it in your face and run around in assless pants and calling everyone girlfriend, and get upset if people dont agree with their lifestyle. NOT everyone is ok with gay, it dosnt make them sexist or biggoted far left nutters. so yeah...i dont get these paradrs either, im going to get a shirt that reads ''i like munching pussy''

Heterosexuality is opt out, not opt in. As long as a man isn't wearing a shirt saying he doesn't like munching pussy, it's taken to mean that he does.

thaluikhain:

No, I'm not saying that you happen to believe that.

Thank you...that's all I needed to know.

*sigh* I just wish that someday, somehow, we could all just love one another...no hang ups, no prejudices, none of that...just love for all humans, all the time.

It's a dream I know but...it's a nice one.

thaluikhain:
Heterosexuality is opt out, not opt in. As long as a man isn't wearing a shirt saying he doesn't like munching pussy, it's taken to mean that he does.

This comment has greatly offended me. As a straight man, and on behalf of the straight male community, I would like to inform you that many of us do not fit the stereotype of partaking in the pasttime of "munching pussy". We enjoy doing a variety of things to said pussy and each individual has their own likes and dislike, with many of us not enjoying the munching of the pussy and thus do not partake. I thank you for your time and your future consideration when choosing to speak about the straight male community.

This is a joke, btw.

thaluikhain:
There are mistakes you (like everyone else) are going to make, but as long as you are aware of the problems you (and anyone else who wants to) can choose to minimise them.

That is the important part. Mistakes you make. Not some nonsense about being born a "monster" for being born as part of the majority.

What an awful attitude. Valis88, you romanticize life as a minority. I can only imagine how patronizing that must feel to actual minority people. If you want to help them, join a group supporting LGBT-rights or similar. You are defined by your actions, not by your skin-colour or sexuality. Do something to help the issues. Frankly, your prejudice of people of the majority as "monsters by default" sickens me, even though, nah, especially since you include yourself.
What have you done that was monstrous? Unless there's something you aren't telling us, you're unfairly condemning hundreds of millions of people simply for the way they were born rather than for what they do or don't do. And that's exactly the same thing people have done to minorities for ages and continue to do today. That is not a solution, that is not a way to change anything, that is just awful, too.

LetalisK:

thaluikhain:
Heterosexuality is opt out, not opt in. As long as a man isn't wearing a shirt saying he doesn't like munching pussy, it's taken to mean that he does.

This comment has greatly offended me. As a straight man, and on behalf of the straight male community, I would like to inform you that many of us do not fit the stereotype of partaking in the pasttime of "munching pussy". We enjoy doing a variety of things to said pussy and each individual has their own likes and dislike, with many of us not enjoying the munching of the pussy and thus do not partake. I thank you for your time and your future consideration when choosing to speak about the straight male community.

This is a joke, btw.

I get that you're joking, unfortunately, you're not wrong. Pop culture has some very weird ideas about sex, and people stray from the norm at their peril.

thaluikhain:

LetalisK:

thaluikhain:
Heterosexuality is opt out, not opt in. As long as a man isn't wearing a shirt saying he doesn't like munching pussy, it's taken to mean that he does.

This comment has greatly offended me. As a straight man, and on behalf of the straight male community, I would like to inform you that many of us do not fit the stereotype of partaking in the pasttime of "munching pussy". We enjoy doing a variety of things to said pussy and each individual has their own likes and dislike, with many of us not enjoying the munching of the pussy and thus do not partake. I thank you for your time and your future consideration when choosing to speak about the straight male community.

This is a joke, btw.

I get that you're joking, unfortunately, you're not wrong. Pop culture has some very weird ideas about sex, and people stray from the norm at their peril.

Weird, from most guys I've spoken to I thought the norm was not to like it. That it was a thing that one had to grudgingly agree to in order to get a woman to reciprocate. Here I thought I was the odd one because I enjoy it in and of itself.

Valis88:
I'm going to edit my rant down to this....

I don't think that hterosex is 'the norm' in nature (and it's not), no should it be the 'the norm' in society.

Is that possibly clear enough?

It's perfectly clear and equally incorrect.

It's not necessarily discriminatory to note that some attributes are more widespread or "normal" than others. To switch from sexuality to disability: you'd have a hell of a time trying to convince people that being born a quadriplegic is as "normal" as being born able-bodied. But if what you meant was that quadriplegic people deserve every courtesy and should be enabled to live as good a life as possible, I'd support that to the hilt, if only you'd bloody well say it as it is.

As for your general attitude of flagellating self-hatred, I think its perverse and unhealthy. There is nothing noble about the stance you're taking. Acts of violence and discrimination are most certainly not unique to straight white people; read some world history. This heavenly acceptance you speak of should start with self-acceptance.

Valis88:
(I'm begging you guys, please, what I'm about to say isn't trolling, it's genuinely how I feel. I felt that this topic was appropriate for this confession.)

Personally? I can't stand being straight. I hate it, and I hate especially the fact that being straight, associates me with the tainted overflow of hetero popular culture, and homophobia.

Not really. Being straight doesn't automatically do that. Most LGBT people like their straight allies.

You don't have to be, say, black to hate racism, or a woman to hate sexism.

Valis88:
I have tried so hard to find it within my self to love women, to love my same just but it just...wont work. I'm doomed to love the opposite gender, and yet I have no desire to have children, or to get married.

Then don't get married or have children. I mean, plenty of relationships, straight or otherwise, work without marriage or children. It's not really that big of a deal.

It seems, a bit sad that you feel 'doomed' to being in love with a male, I guess. Because it'd be sad to me too if a gay person, dealing with the problems of society would feel 'doomed' to love the same sex.

Love who you want and can.

Valis88:
I despise it, because I feel that gay love, that the LGBT way is so much more 'real' and more deep....your guys love means so much more. In games and media I've always found the same gender romances to have more meaning, and be more romantic than nay straight love.

Nah, that hasn't been my experience. People are people, regardless of their junk or which junk they prefer.

If the media portrayals of gay people seem to be more 'genuine', it's not because straight people or gay people are 'better' lovers than one another, it's because they have to be portrayed that way to fight the older stereotype that gay people don't love each other, or are promiscuous or what not.

Valis88:
Ugh I just wish, I wish that being straight wasn't so tainted right now. I have no desire to associate with hateful self-centered males, or be expected to be an obedient corpulent bovine.A whole society of...well...breeders.

Then, try dating a bisexual man? I mean, I honestly don't think you have to. Not all straight men are assholes, for the same reason you're not automatically an asshole despite being straight.

Valis88:
This is something I've struggled with, inside myself, for years. I envy you, LGBT, all of you. I'd give my right arm to be a part of something so great, and so meaningful.

Then be a part of the movement. I know a few bitter people might be assholes about it, but I really do think that people really do or would appreciate your kindness and help even if you're straight.

You can be a part of that struggle, if just by being a decent person.

Valis88:

I don't want to be 'the norm', because I feel as if heterosexuality is tainted by big media, and white American culture.

Yeah, but homosexuals were portrayed pretty badly by the media too, and yet you think they're alright people. Maybe instead of wanting to be something else, you can just be who you seem to be, a good person, and let the media rot in a fire.

Valis88:
I don't care if I'd be looked down upon negatively, in fact that fact that I'm not gets under my skin ever more. I'm a straight white women, I'm 'accepted' and it makes me sick just to know that. It makes me sick to be white. The fact that I will never understand the other side, no matter how hard I try, is what burns at my soul....

I hate it, I hate all of it.

Again, I don't think the most of us would begrudge your acceptance and help. Being gay doesn't make you an automatic champion for human rights any more than being human makes you an automatic champion for human rights.

In that same regard, being straight doesn't make you the automatic enemy of gay people any more than you'd see us as the enemy for not being straight.

If you're a good person, being yourself is all you need to be.

Valis88:
Also I do envy you because you are black, I wish I was black too. However I do find your struggle to be an eye opener because I always thought that things would be better if I was black, or brown or just part of a culture of some kind. I mean I thought that if I was another race, that I could finally feel a sense of camaraderie, and unity. I could nod to other people like me on the street, and we'd 'know' each other because of the shared cultural past.

And to a large degree you can still do that just by fighting the good fight. That cultural struggle, especially in the LGBT group, is one of unity of ideals, not so much unity of desires. The group encompasses a large amount of vastly different people (trans people are not 'gay', gay people and bisexuals aren't entirely the same, etc). Their unity is through not what gender they prefer to have sex with (again, the 'T' in that, isn't even a sexual orientation), but through a common struggle for acceptance, not just for themselves personally, but the group as a whole.

There's no reason you can't be a valuable apart of that struggle.

Yes, some people might not appreciate you as much as they should. And I'm sure some gay people don't really 'count' bisexuals, and some people don't 'count' trans people, etc. But they're assholes and morons.

There's assholes and morons in every group.

Valis88:
I want to belong, and I do, but I belong to a race that has cause so much pain, strife, and still continues to do so. I can't be grateful for any of that, it's a constant source of shame, and depression.

You're not personally responsible for the bad things your peers do any more than every male is responsible for Hitler (fuck yeah, Godwin). If you feel that your position above others was granted unfairly, you don't have to seek in vain to hurt yourself for it, by being upset at yourself. That doesn't really help anybody. Use your position to educate and help others.

Or just be a nice and decent person, because there's a deficit of that anyways, so just being nice is in itself great.

Valis88:
It's the same with my desire to wear a rainbow, to be a part of a greater good, to nod to other people wearing rainbows, and feel that unity.

I crave a sense of belonging, where the only people, and sexuality, that I belong to is is more wicked than good.

I want, I crave pride....I have none....nothing...

Then make yourself something to be proud of, again. You might not be able to 'make' yourself gay (and really you shouldn't be ashamed of yourself for being born any more than we should).

If you feel that you want that 'unity' and to be proud of yourself, you can do a lot more for that unity and for that struggle, and do a lot more to be proud of, than just happening to sleep with another woman.

Valis88:

thaluikhain:

Valis88:
I'm just gonna say my last bit, and bow out.

I don't believe in 'heteronormativity' at all. I really don't think that hetero 'is' the norm of anything.

Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex and transsexual people are, and should be, the normal thing in our world.

A normal, and natural part of nature....as it should be.

There's a big difference between "should" and "is".

There's no particular reason why heterosexuality should dominate society to the inclusion of others. But it's generally only those in favour of that continuing to be the case that have a reason to deny that it is.

I'm going to edit my rant down to this....

I don't think that hterosex is 'the norm' in nature (and it's not), no should it be the 'the norm' in society.

Is that possibly clear enough?

The problem here is that we have three different definitions of 'normal' going on.

We have the definition of 'normal' that means 'healthy and natural' (which you believe that heterosexuality is, and I'd agree) and we have the definition of 'most statistically common' (which is the definition some people are using), and the definition of 'most commonly accepted by society', which is the definition the word 'heteronormality' is built around.

You're using definition one, Thaluikhain is using definition 3, and Baitou, in between the quoted posts and mine are using definition 2.

Normal is a sort of worthless word, to be honest.

Heterosexuality is heteronormative, by definition 3. Thaluikhain is correct there.

Heterosexuality isn't the only normal sexuality, by definition 1, I believe, so I believe you're correct there.

See how you're both correct at the same time, just depending on semantics? Again, the word 'normal' can be almost meaningless.

Now, generally, using helpful and people first language, and trying to avoid non-harmful language, generally people, especially those in the LGBT community, will want you to use definition 1.

thaluikhain:

mad_mick:
I dont get it either. I dont dislike homosexuals at all, i have gay friends and im fine with that whole thing. But i dont like gay people who flaunt it in your face and run around in assless pants and calling everyone girlfriend, and get upset if people dont agree with their lifestyle. NOT everyone is ok with gay, it dosnt make them sexist or biggoted far left nutters. so yeah...i dont get these paradrs either, im going to get a shirt that reads ''i like munching pussy''

Heterosexuality is opt out, not opt in. As long as a man isn't wearing a shirt saying he doesn't like munching pussy, it's taken to mean that he does.

Also, that sounds a lot like "I don't mind you being who you are, as long as don't act or look like who you are".

I hear that shit all the time.

"I'm totally OK with gay people, as long as they don't really exist anywhere within 30,000 miles of me", sort of thing. "I'm totally OK with gay people, but I don't want them enjoying anything that straight people take for granted, like holding hands in public.".

"Not everyone is OK with gay", but if you're OK with it, why are you complaining about it?

"Not being OK with gay doesn't make you a bigot!", um except that's pretty much the definition of if there.

I'd like to know exactly why, if somebody isn't OK with me existing, that I should cease to exist. Not everybody is OK with the fact I exist, period.

Valis88:

thaluikhain:

Well, you can't, not totally.

On the other hand, though, you'll not find one person on this planet who is totally free from some prejudice. All the people we admire, that we hold up as exemplars are still human and flawed in some way.

Privilege on its own isn't so great a problem, really, it's unexamined privileged that's a worry.

As long as you are aware of your privilege, you can do fairly well at stopping it determining how you act. It's something you'll always have to work at, you will get it wrong sometimes, but it can be done.

So I'll always be a monster by default? Their's nothing I can do about it?

What if i bow my head respectfully around those whom I deem superior to myself? And speak meek and mild as not to draw attention to myself at all times? If I let others take president over me, will that make it all better?

I hate myself so much, and no I just hate myself more...I wish there was some day to not be a loathsome demon, a disease to greater peoples.

Why not try to help the people who are disenfranchized by lacking the privilege that you have? Instead of focusing on hating yourself, focus on the good you can do if you learn enough to be able to educate other white, straight people. Privileged people by and large have an easier time hearing controversial ideas like this from a similarly privileged person. White people listen to other white people, men listen to other men, etc. Also, use your vote and your spare time (if you have any) to advocate for greater freedoms for all people, especially those who currently lack them.

You're not a monster, you (like everyone else) were born into a monstrous system and you happen to have, by the genetic lottery, ended up with more bonuses than other people have. You're not a monster, the system that automatically rewards you for simply being born is what's monstrous.

Valis88:

thaluikhain:

Well, you can't, not totally.

On the other hand, though, you'll not find one person on this planet who is totally free from some prejudice. All the people we admire, that we hold up as exemplars are still human and flawed in some way.

Privilege on its own isn't so great a problem, really, it's unexamined privileged that's a worry.

As long as you are aware of your privilege, you can do fairly well at stopping it determining how you act. It's something you'll always have to work at, you will get it wrong sometimes, but it can be done.

So I'll always be a monster by default? Their's nothing I can do about it?

What if i bow my head respectfully around those whom I deem superior to myself? And speak meek and mild as not to draw attention to myself at all times? If I let others take president over me, will that make it all better?

I hate myself so much, and no I just hate myself more...I wish there was some day to not be a loathsome demon, a disease to greater peoples.

*Eyeroll*

Can we please stop indulging this melodrama?

PrinceOfShapeir:

*Eyeroll*

Can we please stop indulging this melodrama?

Yeah, we need to stop indulging this melodrama created by Shapeir complaining about threads he doesn't like.

I have no problem with the -thread-, it's the emo self-flagellating whining. Do you not read what she's -saying-? I've seen less bile inducing writing on fan fiction friday.

Katatori-kun:

Relish in Chaos:

No, you don't. Be grateful that you're not an ostracized and oppressed minority in many communities. Be grateful that you can kiss your partner in public and not have people recoil in disgust.

Oh, I don't know. I've recoiled in disgust at a fair number of hetero couples I've seen kissing.

And being gay today really doesn't seem that bad as it was a decade or so ago[1]. Most gay guys I know get monstrously laid. And you gotta admit, just having one variety of genitals involved must surely reduce the complexity of sex. And aside from a few close male friends I generally prefer women as friends over men as friends. Those friendships would go a lot easier if there wasn't a chance of sexual tension or even fear that there might be sexual tension. And you might say that being gay gets you oppressed, but really, so does any behavior that doesn't fit a gender norm. It's not like being straight in high school got me called "fag" any less, and it's not like the same ultra-conservatives who hate homosexuals don't still think I'm going to hell.

So, yeah, on the whole being gay doesn't sound that bad. If it weren't for that whole I'm-attracted-to-women-not-men thing, I might take that deal.

I'm saying, in general, people don't recoil in disgust at a man and women kissing on the street, only if they're full-on making out. But if a man so much as pecks another man, you're bound to get some people sniggering or looking at you disapprovingly.

And being gay is still a big issue, although it depends on where you live. There is a good case to be made that homosexual relationships are more "practical" than heterosexual, even if only because they're the same sex and, thus, may by default understand each other better. And I have female friends and I know others that do, and there's no "sexual tension" just because of the sexual orientation. There are about three gay guys that I know of in my year 11 at secondary school, and they've have/had boyfriends and have a good group of friends of both male and females, but I live in relatively calm area at the bottom of England.

The diffference between a straight guy being called "fag" and a gay guy being called "fag" is that the latter may have difficulty being open about his sexuality, whereas the former knows (and others genuinely know) that he's not gay or in the closet about anything; he may just happen to be somewhat feminine, yet is still attracted to women. Just being gay can cause you to get blacklisted like that.

Valis88:
I'm just gonna say my last bit, and bow out.

I don't believe in 'heteronormativity' at all. I really don't think that hetero 'is' the norm of anything.

Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex and transsexual people are, and should be, the normal thing in our world.

A normal, and natural part of nature....as it should be.

Same here. People can throw out the argument of "but two dicks can't make a baby" argument all they want, but I bet those people, unless they're ultra-conversative and/or religious fundamentalists, have sex for pleasure and not procreation. We've moved on so much from when we were barely distinguishable from animals.

I've said this before, but sexuality, and sex itself, is a varying scale and it's not black-and-white like some small-minded idiots think. Even the overtly masculine, super-heterosexual woman-lover probably isn't 100% heterosexual himself, and I bet there's a very, very small minority of people who are actually 100% heterosexual. But none of these people are a threat to child-bearing or society or whatever lies these people want to spew.

I'm a bit tired, so someone else can and has probably explained this better than me but...the universe is complicated, but we shouldn't try to stamp out harmless difference like this. I get sick of human beings sometimes, so I can't blame misanthropists for just wanting humanity to end already. It's just so frustrating that people can't just get along and stop screwing each other over petty shit like this.

Valis88: If this insecurity about your identity or whatever is really getting on your nerves, perhaps you should see a counsellor. It's what I'm doing, at least. Even if you don't feel as if you have a "real" problem, it's good to just talk to someone.

[1] assuming you aren't still in high school

I've said this before, but sexuality, and sex itself, is a varying scale and it's not black-and-white like some small-minded idiots think. Even the overtly masculine, super-heterosexual woman-lover probably isn't 100% heterosexual himself, and I bet there's a very, very minority of people who are actually 100% heterosexual. But none of these people are a threat to child-bearing or society or whatever lies these people want to spew.

I don't actually care, but I hear this all the time and I've never heard a shred of evidence for the 'everyone is a little bi' theory.

PrinceOfShapeir:

I've said this before, but sexuality, and sex itself, is a varying scale and it's not black-and-white like some small-minded idiots think. Even the overtly masculine, super-heterosexual woman-lover probably isn't 100% heterosexual himself, and I bet there's a very, very minority of people who are actually 100% heterosexual. But none of these people are a threat to child-bearing or society or whatever lies these people want to spew.

I don't actually care, but I hear this all the time and I've never heard a shred of evidence for the 'everyone is a little bi' theory.

I didn't say that everyone is "a little bi". I said that I think there's a very small minority of people who are 100% on the heterosexual side of the scale. No, I don't have much concrete evidence for that, but it's just what I think. You don't have to believe it or anything; I'm not going to force you to believe anything you don't want, since everyone has their own opinions.

But sexuality is a vast scale that many people seem to ignore in favour of the "norm" heterosexuality and/or repressing certain parts of their sexuality to conform.

Dormin111:
Uhhhh... Is the site glitching or something? I did not write this.

No, it's my fault. I answered both threads together and must have left your quote in the clipboard.

I'll fix it now.

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