On the European right wing, and why we are facing a massive problem here in regards to immigration.

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PercyBoleyn:

Volf:
No that is you that is speculating, the site never uses the word Roma...at...all. There is no way of knowing which group of people the site is referring to.

The Roma are a protected group, I'm fairly sure they're also included. Even moreso considering the LCHR study I gave you which specifically dealt with issues faced by the Roma in Latvia.

and yet the Roma are never mentioned on the site. You may speculate all you want about who they are referring to, but that's all you'll be doing..speculating.

PercyBoleyn:
snip

I'm not reading over 70 pages, you have to provide specific examples to back up your claim, not me. Your claim requires the burden of proof.

Volf:
I'm not reading over 70 pages, you have to provide specific examples to back up your claim, not me. Your claim requires the burden of proof.

Oh how entertaining, the big Volf tries to justify not analyzing the evidence that proves him wrong under the guise of being too lazy to read. Don't sweat it buddy, lots of people feel frustrated when they find themselves on the losing side of the playground, especially when you're so proud you'd do anything just to drag this discussion until one of us gets bored and calls the other an idiot.

Volf:
and yet the Roma are never mentioned on the site. You may speculate all you want about who they are referring to, but that's all you'll be doing..speculating.

Well, actually, yes they are.

PercyBoleyn:
snip

Cut the bravado and just provide the proof of your claim

Volf:

PercyBoleyn:
snip

Cut the bravado and just provide the proof of your claim

http://www.humanrights.org.lv/upload_file/situation_of_roma.pdf

Have fun.

PercyBoleyn:

Volf:

PercyBoleyn:
snip

Cut the bravado and just provide the proof of your claim

http://www.humanrights.org.lv/upload_file/situation_of_roma.pdf

Have fun.

Again, I don't need to prove a negative, you need to prove a positive. It's called burden of proof. Find and cite the material that backs up your claims.

Volf:
Again, I don't need to prove a negative, you need to prove a positive. It's called burden of proof. Find and cite the material that backs up your claims.

And I suppose this isn't material:

http://www.humanrights.org.lv/upload_file/situation_of_roma.pdf

PercyBoleyn:

Volf:
Again, I don't need to prove a negative, you need to prove a positive. It's called burden of proof. Find and cite the material that backs up your claims.

And I suppose this isn't material:

http://www.humanrights.org.lv/upload_file/situation_of_roma.pdf

Your not citing anything specifically, your just dumping a big PDF on my lap.

Volf:
Your not citing anything specifically, your just dumping a big PDF on my lap.

You asked me about the situation of Romas in Latvia, I gave you a study dealing specifically with that.

PercyBoleyn:

Volf:
Your not citing anything specifically, your just dumping a big PDF on my lap.

You asked me about the situation of Romas in Latvia, I gave you a study dealing specifically with that.

and you have not specified where in the document that it said that Roma children are denied proper schooling and that Roma people are denied the ability to purchase housing.

Volf:
and you have not specified where in the document that it said that Roma children are denied proper schooling and that Roma people are denied the ability to purchase housing.

If you had actually bothered to look over the study you would have been aware that there's a "Table of Contents" one page bellow the introduction.

PercyBoleyn:

Volf:
and you have not specified where in the document that it said that Roma children are denied proper schooling and that Roma people are denied the ability to purchase housing.

If you had actually bothered to look over the study you would have been aware that there's a "Table of Contents" one page bellow the introduction.

Cite the info, I'm not doing the work for you.

Volf:
Cite the info, I'm not doing the work for you.

I'm sorry, are you really that lazy that you won't even open up the study, go to the table of contents, see what page your specific querry was addresed in and read? Dude, at this point you're just stalling for time. You lost, deal with it. You don't even have to admit it, I'll let it go. I'll be OK knowing that maybe in the future you'll give more thought before making outrageous claims.

PercyBoleyn:

Volf:
Cite the info, I'm not doing the work for you.

I'm sorry, are you really that lazy that you won't even open up the study, go to the table of contents, see what page your specific querry was addresed in and read? Dude, at this point you're just stalling for time. You lost, deal with it. You don't even have to admit it, I'll let it go. I'll be OK knowing that maybe in the future you'll give more thought before making outrageous claims.

I did your work for you and I looked, and here is what it had to say about housing for Roma people

page 42:
Latvias Romani residents live in privately owned homes, large apartment buildings, social aid facilities, partially
furnished apartments or even rooms which are not at all appropriate for accommodation. [further in the article] Most Romani people live in apartments or houses with wood burning heating systems. Most of these are
individual homes, which belong to the state, a local government or a private individual. [further in the article still]Overcrowding is the cause of domestic
migration or seasonal migration. Romani people from other towns often arrive at the homes of relatives when they are looking for work. Children are sent to live with grandparents or other relatives if parents go to work somewhere else.

So not only are they not denied housing, but overcrowding in the houses that they have result from their family members.

PercyBoleyn:
You asked me about the situation of Romas in Latvia, I gave you a study dealing specifically with that.

No, you spammed a link. Obviously nobody is going to dig through a hundred pages of activist bullshit for you. However, Volf, who already been very patient with your negative attitude, did this for you, and turned up that you lied yet again. Gypsies can purchase homes and get an education, in Latvia, and anywhere else for that matter.

So, where is the evidence that discrimination is the sole cause of the marginalised position of the Roma? You've seen plenty evidence of own guilt now, in the post above this one, even proof from the very source you cited, I mean, if I invited my entire family to come live in my appartment, it would be overcrowded too. Gypsy does exactly that, and discrimination is to blame? Go away.

Volf:
I did your work for you and I looked, and here is what it had to say about housing for Roma people

Oh look, more quote mining.

Here's the actual text:

Blablahb:
No, you spammed a link. Obviously nobody is going to dig through a hundred pages of activist bullshit for you.

You're cracking me up dude. Seriously, stop. I got a belly ache. Incidentally, did you know the author of that study is the Latvian Center for Human rights?

Blablahb:
However, Volf, who already been very patient with your negative attitude

What negative attitude?

Blablahb:
did this for you, and turned up that you lied yet again.

Where did I lie? Can you point out anything specific?

Blablahb:
Gypsies can purchase homes and get an education, in Latvia, and anywhere else for that matter.

Now you're the one lying.

Blablahb:
So, where is the evidence that discrimination is the sole cause of the marginalised position of the Roma? You've seen plenty evidence of own guilt now, in the post above this one, even proof from the very source you cited, I mean, if I invited my entire family to come live in my appartment, it would be overcrowded too. Gypsy does exactly that, and discrimination is to blame? Go away.

No you go away. Your attiude is negative and all that lying is really rubbing me the wrong way.

PercyBoleyn:
snip

and yet the word "discrimination" is never used once in the part of the article that you quoted.

Volf:
and yet the word "discrimination" is never used once in the part of the article that you quoted.

How typical of you. You get called out on your bullshit and you immediately change the subject.

PercyBoleyn:

Volf:
and yet the word "discrimination" is never used once in the part of the article that you quoted.

How typical of you. You get called out on your bullshit and you immediately change the subject.

Your whole thing was about the discrimination that they faced, and yet the subject is never discussed once in the quote. I have changed nothing, I've only hold you up to providing proof that Roma people are discriminated in Latvia by being denied housing and proper schooling.

Volf:
Your whole thing was about the discrimination that they faced, and yet the subject is never discussed once in the quote.

You're right, that's page ten. Page 41 dealt with living conditions, not discrimination. You keep trying to turn this around but it's just not working bud. I suggest you move to another country or, you know, just let go of that pride and admit you were wrong. It's coming sooner or later, you can keep delaying it but you know very well what's going to happen.

Volf:
I have changed nothing

Uh, yes you have. You specifically quoted only parts of what was written in order to supposedly show that the study in fact confirms your claims when this is not the case.

For example, this is what you quoted:

"Latvia's Romani residents live in privately owned homes, large apartment buildings, social aid facilities, partially
furnished apartments or even rooms which are not at all appropriate for accommodation."

This is what the study actually said:

"Latvia's Romani residents live in privately owned homes, large apartment buildings, social aid facilities, partially
furnished apartments or even rooms which are not at all appropriate for accommodation.
The Central Statistical Board's Department of Residential Statistics surveyed 1,571 households in which Romani
people live, and the resulting data indicate that the living conditions of many of those people are pitiful.
"

Volf:
I've only hold you up to providing proof that Roma people are discriminated in Latvia by being denied housing and proper schooling.

Don't beat yourself up, better men than you tried to use fallacies and failed. Besides, I did provide you with evidence. Too bad you ignored it. Anything else or are you done acting like your arguments still matter?

PercyBoleyn:
snip

You claimed that they have been denied housing, and yet I showed you your own source said that they have houses(shitty houses as you pointed out but houses all the same). That is in contrast to your earlier claim that throughout all of Eastern Europe, Roma people are denied housing.

PercyBoleyn:
The Central Statistical Board's Department of Residential Statistics surveyed 1,571 households in which Romani
people live, and the resulting data indicate that the living conditions of many of those people are pitiful.

And it's even more sad that the gypsies have caused that to happen themselves, by a rather poor work ethos and bad attitude towards education which cause a marginal socio-economic position, and allowing their relatives to move into their homes, which causes them to be overcrowded. I hope the gypsies change their behaviour so their housing position in Latvia will improve in time.

But that wasn't your claim was it? Your claim was the evil white Latvians don't allow gypsies to have homes.

PercyBoleyn:
Besides, I did provide you with evidence. Too bad you ignored it. Anything else or are you done acting like your arguments still matter?

The above discussion before you posted that rude reply went:

PercyBoleyn: Gypsies can't have houses and an education in Latvia!
Volf: Prove it please?
PercyBoleyn: *spams links which says gypsies actually do live in the houses they supposedly can't get and doesn't seem to mention education at all*
Volf: That's not proving what you claimed. It says gypsies do have houses.
PercyBoleyn: WTF?!! I did provide you with evidence gypsies can't have houses!1!
Volf: *does your work by looking through the document* Here's a quote that says they do indeed have houses.
PercyBoleyn: WTF?!! I did provide you with evidence gypsies can't have houses!1!

Seriously, without sarcasm, think for a moment what the people you're trying to convince, the readers of this discussion, will think if they read the exchange I summed up above. I'm not a professor in rhetorics or anything, but I can tell you it looks rather poor on you and it isn't going to strengthen your argument here. It would've been far wiser to just admit you were exagerating a lot, and then try to argue your fictional discrimination in the worse living conditions. You'd still lose because those, according to your own source, aren't due to discrimination but because of socio-economic position and the cultural custom of letting family move in and overcrowd a home, but at least it would look a little less weak of an argument.

Actually I'm looking for the 'give bonus points' button right now, because Volf deserves quite a few for staying decent in the face of your negative, disruptive and even offensive tone of writing.


On a related note, let me show you a picture of gypsies with a house.

Meet the gypsy Nicolich family, in front of the royal villa in De Meern they up untill recently lived in at the costs of the taxpayer, because they got evicted time after time from regular neighbourhoods from causing a nuisance, threats and violence.

image

The going rent rate for freestanding houses like that, that close to the large city is Utrecht is well over € 2000 a month. The Nicolich family, who has been evicted seven times before for crimes and nuisance, did not have to pay any rent for that villa.

Inside view of the palatial villa, taken at a moment when a rival drugsdealer came to the door to threaten the Nicolich family, and this made headlines on a few blogs:
image

Voila: Gypsies with a house. A house they don't deserve, paid for by others, even.

Occasionally, where I work you also have a probation service. During my early days there, the one seen on the left reported at the desk, I phoned upstairs saying "Mr Nicolich is here". The Probation officer replied "Which one?".
Turned out every single male member of the Nicolich family was under rehabilitation services supervision in 2010, meaning they have been released from incarceration in the last 3 years.

Volf:
You claimed that they have been denied housing, and yet I showed you your own source said that they have houses(shitty houses as you pointed out put houses all the same).

That section specifically dealt with living conditions. As I've said before, there is another section that deals specifically with discrimination.

Volf:
That is in contrast to your earlier claim that throughout all of Eastern Europe, Roma people are denied housing.

If you take a look over the study you'll notice there's a section dedicated specifically to discrimination. The fact of the matter is, most people don't want Roma in their buildings. That's a fact, you only need to look at the attitudes of the Latvian population to see that.

Blablahb:
And it's even more sad that the gypsies have caused that to happen themselves, by a rather poor work ethos and bad attitude towards education which cause a marginal socio-economic position, and allowing their relatives to move into their homes, which causes them to be overcrowded. I hope the gypsies change their behaviour so their housing position in Latvia will improve in time.

You got any proof of that or did you fail to read the study I provided and just decided to go with whatever bullshit you can come up with?

Blablahb:
But that wasn't your claim was it? Your claim was the evil white Latvians don't allow gypsies to have homes.

Strawman.

Blablahb:
The above discussion before you posted that rude reply

You want to talk about rude? How about the numerous racist remarks you made towards the Roma or the fact that you called a professor at the University of Texas a holocaust denier because he suggested that more gypsies were killed during it than previously thought? Isn't that also rude, or are you exempt from the rule?

Blablahb:
PercyBoleyn: Gypsies can't have houses and an education in Latvia!
Volf: Prove it please?
PercyBoleyn: *spams links which says gypsies actually do live in the houses they supposedly can't get and doesn't seem to mention education at all*
Volf: That's not proving what you claimed. It says gypsies do have houses.
PercyBoleyn: WTF?!! I did provide you with evidence gypsies can't have houses!1!
Volf: *does your work by looking through the document* Here's a quote that says they do indeed have houses.
PercyBoleyn: WTF?!! I did provide you with evidence gypsies can't have houses!1!

Actually, that part of the study dealt specifically with Romas who do have houses and pointed out that the conditions in them are pitiful. It also has a paragraph that deals specifically with discrimination. Also, nice strawman. You must've broken your own personal record.

Blablahb:
Seriously, without sarcasm, think for a moment what the people you're trying to convince, the readers of this discussion, will think if they read the exchange I summed up above.

Good thing that's not how it happened.

Blablahb:
You'd still lose because those, according to your own source, aren't due to discrimination but because of socio-economic position and the cultural custom of letting family move in and overcrowd a home, but at least it would look a little less weak of an argument.

What's funny about this is that you didn't even read the study, you just went by the quote mined bullshit Volf posted and tried to gain the upper hand. Unfortunately, you failed again. Now, I know you're not going to reply to this since you're too proud to admit when you're wrong but seriously, at this point you're just being pathetic.

Blablahb:
Actually I'm looking for the 'give bonus points' button right now, because Volf deserves quite a few for staying decent in the face of your negative, disruptive and even offensive tone of writing.

For example?

[quote="Blablahb" post="528.364951.14313080"]snipquote]

Hello Blahb. My name's Bob, and I don't give a shit about your pointless anectodes.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
I just finished reading a thread that got me thinking. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.364445-European-right-wing-politics-is-it-like-US-right-wing-politics) A skype call and a good discussion later I decided to make a thread and share my thoughts about this, from a European perspective.

So, lets keep this shortish, I dont want to waste too much of your time: we have a massive problem in Germany. A MASSIVE one.

The quick history: we needed workers, so we invited over a lot of turks. Unfortunately no one thought it would be a good idea to integrate them properly, so what we have now is 3 entire generations that grew up in Turkish towns that are German only in geographic terms. Turkish shops, nothing but Turkish neighbors, Islam everywhere, schools that dont even bother teaching proper math or German, you get the idea. We have something like 2 million people here that were born in Germany but dont speak the language. The unemployment rate in 18-25 year olds that come from a Turkish background is a staggering 50%.

Needless to say, these people feel backed into a corner. You see, recently a politician released a rather controversial book and spawned a shitstorm. Suddenly integration is all over the news, and people are blaming Turks for not integrating themselves properly. Half the people are calling for them to drop Islam. They feel like they cant live the way they want to anymore, and obviously this spawns a hostile attitude for Germans.

On the other side, its become racist to like Germany. Speak like an "old" person? Nazi! Like German traditions? Racist! Cheering for the national side in any sports event? Burn the fascist!

I said I would cut this short so I will just skip to the point: we are backing both sides into a corner, and we all know how people act when they are backed into a corner. The attitude we are showing toward both immigrants and natives in Germany and Europe as a whole is doing nothing but pushing both sides into extremism. For a few years now, the situation has been slowly building up, and I have a feeling its going to blow up in 5 years. Not with a small bang either. Hate crime is steadily rising, I wonder how long it will be before it reaches critical levels.

So I ask you Escapists; what do you think of this? How would you handle the situation? Or do you disagree entirely and think there is no problem at all?

The trouble is: Western countrys somehow have managed to get used to a living standard that is only sustainable if we make other people live in dumps.

And we have a very hard tiem getting un-used to it ^^.

Why do yo uthink all püroduction get outsourced to slave-laborstan all the time? Because if you'd build in western countrys you'd have to sell for a price that covers the costs. and costs are high, due to everyone needing high wages since living is so damn costly.

Anyone can live like a good middleclass citizen, but not EVERYONE.

This threads illustrates why gyppos are such a problem.

7 pages long and not one fucking solution. Just bickering over wether or not something is racist. The miasma of political correctness.

My mom worked as a sociologist during the 80s. They got enough resources to integrate them into society, as in forcefully making them move into white neighborhoods. The people at the top thought it would be to much work to try to get them into schools and jobs.

Then capitalism came, and a wave of PC, forcing everyone to cater to the needs of Romas, or end up in court. No solutions have been presented, and those that have been were immediately slandered, even by western media, as racist.

In the meantime, Romas adapted. When it comes to racism, they know every law and know exactly what to say. They've learnt how to 'fuck the system over' by applying all kinds of methods to get more money out of the social system, like getting medical papers that claim they're disabled or unable to work. The doctor wont sign it? They end up in court and even people in France will hear about it.

Edit: Not to be a hypocrite, I shall present my solution as well.

1)Stop with the racism. Positive racism is still racism. Romas should have the exact same privileges and laws have to apply to them too.

2)Boarding school. While it wouldn't be great to take the kids from poor families and force them to go to boarding school, it would work. Instead, they should be given financial incentives to send their kids to boarding, where they can be shown that other ways of life are possible. It is very long term, but better than doing nothing.

Present some solutions, don't just yell "racist!" when someone wants to help. The current situation a lose/lose situation.

Meh, I'll sympathize with the gypsies when they stop acting like the worst scum to ever grace the earth.

PercyBoleyn:
snip

Once again your not pointing to specific examples in the study, but here is what I found....

Page 11:
3.2. Public Attitudes Toward the Roma
In Latvia, a majority of survey respondents said that they have never had close contacts with any Romani people.
Contacts largely are based on encounters in public places - at markets or on the street (75.5%), in shops (40%),
bars and cafes (20%). Closer contacts with the Roma have involved being neighbors (20%), colleagues at work,
friends, the schoolmates of children or fellow students in higher education (each less than 10%).

So no, there is no mention of them not wanting Roma in houses. Also this is a red heerring because your claim was that can't have houses, which is clearly bullshit as I showed you in previous post.

Cowpoo:
My mom worked as a sociologist during the 80s. They got enough resources to integrate them into society, as in forcefully making them move into white neighborhoods. The people at the top thought it would be to much work to try to get them into schools and jobs.

But forced mixing doesn't work. All that does is degrade neighbourhoods and make people 'live past' eachother without meeting. Utrecht University built up a lot of expertise on the subject as housing the NETHUR project, and the short summary of 'neighbourhood theory' is that integration and social cohesion are much more important than for instance the built environment, and forcibly fixing something by mixing or other top-down policy is mostly a myth.

For instance many gypsies don't or hardly speak the language of their country, and the children often don't at all. People can try what they want, but you can't integrate somebody who can't make himself be understood at all.

There's also that lifestyle choices impact it greatly. One of the docters who teach at my university researched the living conditions of two minorities here (Turks and Moroccans) and concluded that their worse living situation resulted from having kids at an early age, and a relatively low income, meaning most housing was barred for them based on their choices.

And like we read about gypsies they tend to marry at an extremely early (illegal) age, have kids, many kids, and then also allow family to move in. That means all affordable appartments are off limits to them, and they've confined themselves to low grade large housing.

Legitimate racists are "scared animals", at least you outlined the fundamental problem with current immigration... all supposed "race"-relation problems you percieve today were caused by the racists of yesterday. Segregating communities, "white flight", etc.

If you werent such pussies, being scared by people existing in your immediate vicinity then you wouldnt have communities of immigrants who HAVE to band together in a foreign nation. If you had actually let them integrate, they would be as flawed as you are instead of being flawed in ways that are as numerous as you but just different enough that you notice.

Volf:
Once again your not pointing to specific examples in the study

Table of contents, paragraph 3: "Discrimination and Public Attitudes". You're just embarassing yourself dude.

Volf:
So no, there is no mention of them not wanting Roma in houses.

Quote mining - a logical fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning.

Volf:
Also this is a red heerring because your claim was that can't have houses, which is clearly bullshit as I showed you in previous post.

This debate has been dragging on forever and I don't particularly remember when I said that. Can you quote the exact statement I made so I know exactly what I was trying to convey?

PercyBoleyn:
snip

Point where in the article that it said that they couldn't get housing.

Blablahb:

Cowpoo:
My mom worked as a sociologist during the 80s. They got enough resources to integrate them into society, as in forcefully making them move into white neighborhoods. The people at the top thought it would be to much work to try to get them into schools and jobs.

But forced mixing doesn't work. All that does is degrade neighbourhoods and make people 'live past' eachother without meeting. Utrecht University built up a lot of expertise on the subject as housing the NETHUR project, and the short summary of 'neighbourhood theory' is that integration and social cohesion are much more important than for instance the built environment, and forcibly fixing something by mixing or other top-down policy is mostly a myth.

For instance many gypsies don't or hardly speak the language of their country, and the children often don't at all. People can try what they want, but you can't integrate somebody who can't make himself be understood at all.

There's also that lifestyle choices impact it greatly. One of the docters who teach at my university researched the living conditions of two minorities here (Turks and Moroccans) and concluded that their worse living situation resulted from having kids at an early age, and a relatively low income, meaning most housing was barred for them based on their choices.

And like we read about gypsies they tend to marry at an extremely early (illegal) age, have kids, many kids, and then also allow family to move in. That means all affordable appartments are off limits to them, and they've confined themselves to low grade large housing.

Oh sorry, I forgot to mention that I consider it a bad thing. It was wrong from the beginning. It's a major precursor to today's situation.

Volf:
Point where in the article that it said that they couldn't get housing.

I don't remember saying the Roma couldn't get houses, I think what I actually said was that due to the attitudes of most people towards the Roma they would be less inclined towards selling/renting them houses or appartments. If you take a look over the study, more specifically the "Discrimination and Public Attitudes" paragraph you'll notice a trend regarding people's attitudes towards the Roma.

At this point you're just latching onto anything you can. I bet you'll reply by claiming nowhere does it say the Roma are denied housing, even though they have a section specifically dealing with that, but considering at this point the only way for you to stay in this argument is by straight out lying, don't worry, I won't be mad. I'll just continue to call you out on your bullshit then laugh as you try to pretend nothing happened in the next post. You know, sort of like you've been doing everytime I exposed your use of quote mining.

Incidentally, the fact that you've failed to gain the upper hand even using fallacies makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

Volf:

PercyBoleyn:
snip

Point where in the article that it said that they couldn't get housing.

OK, I'm gonna chime in to this discussion; you asked PercyBoleyn to provide evidence of Latvians not wanting Roma in houses:

Volf:
So no, there is no mention of them not wanting Roma in houses.

He provides it here;

''Neighbors
Slightly fewer than 20% of Latvia's residents have had Romani neighbors or nearby residents. Among
respondents, 56.2% express a negative attitude toward a Romani neighbor, but that percentage is significantly
lower among those residents who have actually had such a neighbor (36%).''

And then you just move the goalposts. I'm not going to get into the debate of who's right between you two but what you're doing is as clear as day. That's really not cool and it's dishonest.

Hazy992:
He provides it here;
respondents, 56.2% express a negative attitude toward a Romani neighbor, but that percentage is significantly

That doesn't say they can't get houses, that says people there feel badly about a gypsy (I don't get why some constantly refers to Roma, totally ignoring the existance of other gypsy peoples like the Sinti) neighbour, this in turn being caused because many gypsies misbehave and have created a very negative but true image about their group.

If someone moves into the house next to you, and you learn he has been evicted for causing noise problems and violence against his neighbours on seven occasions (like the Nicolich family whose example I cited earlier) would you feel happy about them moving in? No, you wouldn't. Would that be discrimination by you? No, it wouldn't be.

PercyBolyen's problem is he wanted to explain such sentiments by discrimination only, and he's been getting schooled for seven pages about how there's a cause and effect for everything, and the gypsies have been setting the stages for their marginalised position for decades, and they're refusing to change.

Mostly because, as we've been seeing in this discussion here, they'd rather cry discrimination and blame others than do something about it.

Blablahb:
-snip-

If you read again what I posted you'll see you're responding to something I never actually said. The only issue I raised was that Volf asked PercyBoleyn to provide evidence that Latvians don't want Roma in housing or feel negatively about it, not that Roma can't get housing. PercyBoleyn provided that and Volf just turned around and said 'this isn't evidence they can't get housing'. That wasn't what Volf asked for. He just changed it because he was contradicted.

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