On the European right wing, and why we are facing a massive problem here in regards to immigration.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
 

This discussion is reaching a ridiculous point. It is quite clear that there is a discrimination issue and that gypsies lack the will to integrate. But why should a society accept people that rejects all its principles? If they want to be accepted they better start following our laws and integrate. The opportunities are there and we have laws that protect them from discrimination. The ball is on their court. Whatever ball was thrown by societies in the past is irrelevant if we want to get forward. Don't clinge to the past and lets think about the future.

Hazy992:

Blablahb:
-snip-

If you read again what I posted you'll see you're responding to something I never actually said. The only issue I raised was that Volf asked PercyBoleyn to provide evidence that Latvians don't want Roma in housing or feel negatively about it, not that Roma can't get housing. PercyBoleyn provided that and Volf just turned around and said 'this isn't evidence they can't get housing'. That wasn't what Volf asked for. He just changed it because he was contradicted.

He said in earlier post that through out Eastern Europe, that Roma people couldn't get housing and that they were denied housing, so I asked him to show me where his document said that Latvians were denying Roma people housing.

PercyBoleyn:

Volf:
Nope

And why not? Women were opressed for what, more than a thousand years? They had more than enough time too fight for their rights. It's obviously partially their fault.

Volf:
I looked and Latvia is not mentioned once in that page. Latvia is a East European country.

http://www.humanrights.org.lv/html/news/projects/29123.html?yr=2007

http://www.ishr.ch/upr/1064-upr-of-latvia-minority-integration-and-discrimination-issues

Why did I get a notification from Norton that it blocked an attack from the second link?

Hazy992:

PercyBoleyn:

Volf:
Nope

And why not? Women were opressed for what, more than a thousand years? They had more than enough time too fight for their rights. It's obviously partially their fault.

Volf:
I looked and Latvia is not mentioned once in that page. Latvia is a East European country.

http://www.humanrights.org.lv/html/news/projects/29123.html?yr=2007

http://www.ishr.ch/upr/1064-upr-of-latvia-minority-integration-and-discrimination-issues

Why did I get a notification from Norton that it blocked an attack from the second link?

I'm not having problems getting to the second link but here is what it said....

Hazy992:

Why did I get a notification from Norton that it blocked an attack from the second link?

NOD says the same but it's clean.

Volf:
He said in earlier post that through out Eastern Europe, that Roma people couldn't get housing and that they were denied housing, so I asked him to show me where his document said that Latvians were denying Roma people housing.

No, sorry, that's not what I said. You're just strawmanning my argument because you think this way, you might actually win something.

By the way, I've already told you which section deals with discrimination. You seem to keep missing that for some reason.

This actully seemed like an interesting topic and I was interested in it, but dang, that 7 page argument. The really stupid one with Percy thinking that Romas are the perfect pinnacle of humanity who can do no wrong and are only in a less than heavenly situation because of discrimination against them.

Anyway OT: What countries have trouble with Islamaphobia. The UK has issues with it and I believe the French do as well but im not sure about the rest of Europe. Are there countries that don't have any significant trouble with it?

Dandark:
Are there countries that don't have any significant trouble with it?

It's highly localised for one thing. Where immigrant groups live and where they go is often a patchwork of spaces, and outside those one can expect there to be few or no troubles with Islamic groups or immigrants.

I think each country will have it's own story because the composition of their immigrants will be different, like for instance the UK gets relatively a lot more Pakistani than other countries.

PercyBoleyn:

By the way, I've already told you which section deals with discrimination. You seem to keep missing that for some reason.

And I pointed out that they can have housing

Volf:
And I pointed out that they can have housing

Where?

Incidentally, an apple a day keeps the doctor away.

Same reason I disliked having to take Spanish post-high school.

"Fuck the foreigner's language. I'm not going to their shithole countries anyway. They're here, I shouldn't have to speak shit.

Would like to learn French though. Seems fancy.

Freechoice:
Same reason I disliked having to take Spanish post-high school.

"Fuck the foreigner's language. I'm not going to their shithole countries anyway. They're here, I shouldn't have to speak shit.

Would like to learn French though. Seems fancy.

Say what you will about Central/South America(really El Salvador? A day without murder is a celebration? -_- ....), but Spain is far from being a "shit hole country".

Volf:

Freechoice:
Same reason I disliked having to take Spanish post-high school.

"Fuck the foreigner's language. I'm not going to their shithole countries anyway. They're here, I shouldn't have to speak shit.

Would like to learn French though. Seems fancy.

Say what you will about Central/South America(really El Salvador? A day without murder is a celebration? -_- ....), but Spain is far from being a "shit hole country".

he probably means Mexico, which while the border towns are a bit dirty, is still a beautiful country as well.

keiskay:

Volf:

Freechoice:
Same reason I disliked having to take Spanish post-high school.

"Fuck the foreigner's language. I'm not going to their shithole countries anyway. They're here, I shouldn't have to speak shit.

Would like to learn French though. Seems fancy.

Say what you will about Central/South America(really El Salvador? A day without murder is a celebration? -_- ....), but Spain is far from being a "shit hole country".

he probably means Mexico, which while the border towns are a bit dirty, is still a beautiful country as well.

I do, but I dislike Spain anyway. They still run from bulls and kill the poor thing without letting it properly defend itself. Send the matador in BEFORE they swarm it with assholes with pointy sticks. Que valor!

Freechoice:
I do, but I dislike Spain anyway. They still run from bulls and kill the poor thing without letting it properly defend itself. Send the matador in BEFORE they swarm it with assholes with pointy sticks. Que valor!

No longer in Catalonia tho. Civilisation seems to be slowly fighting it's way southwards.

It's also a dying custom in France, where you more often see cowfights then bullfights, which are different in that the bull isn't killed or hurt at all and it's completely about being attacked and being able to dodge those attacks.

Freechoice:
Same reason I disliked having to take Spanish post-high school.

"Fuck the foreigner's language. I'm not going to their shithole countries anyway. They're here, I shouldn't have to speak shit.

Would like to learn French though. Seems fancy.

"Shithole country"? Keep it classy bro. Real classy.

Blablahb:

Freechoice:
I do, but I dislike Spain anyway. They still run from bulls and kill the poor thing without letting it properly defend itself. Send the matador in BEFORE they swarm it with assholes with pointy sticks. Que valor!

No longer in Catalonia tho. Civilisation seems to be slowly fighting it's way southwards.

It's also a dying custom in France, where you more often see cowfights then bullfights, which are different in that the bull isn't killed or hurt at all and it's completely about being attacked and being able to dodge those attacks.

That sounds... really French. Warding off cows? Is there a term for that?

In all seriousness, good on the French for taking something retarded and making it actually kind of respectable.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

Freechoice:
Same reason I disliked having to take Spanish post-high school.

"Fuck the foreigner's language. I'm not going to their shithole countries anyway. They're here, I shouldn't have to speak shit.

Would like to learn French though. Seems fancy.

"Shithole country"? Keep it classy bro. Real classy.

You ever been to Mexico? Not fucking Rocky Point. Ciudad Juarez.

Number 100 of 182 on the corruption index
Number 89 of 135 on gender equality
The water in certain parts of it will make you sick.

And I'll just leave this here.

Shithole country.

Freechoice:

Blablahb:

Freechoice:
I do, but I dislike Spain anyway. They still run from bulls and kill the poor thing without letting it properly defend itself. Send the matador in BEFORE they swarm it with assholes with pointy sticks. Que valor!

No longer in Catalonia tho. Civilisation seems to be slowly fighting it's way southwards.

It's also a dying custom in France, where you more often see cowfights then bullfights, which are different in that the bull isn't killed or hurt at all and it's completely about being attacked and being able to dodge those attacks.

That sounds... really French. Warding off cows? Is there a term for that?

In all seriousness, good on the French for taking something retarded and making it actually kind of respectable.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

Freechoice:
Same reason I disliked having to take Spanish post-high school.

"Fuck the foreigner's language. I'm not going to their shithole countries anyway. They're here, I shouldn't have to speak shit.

Would like to learn French though. Seems fancy.

"Shithole country"? Keep it classy bro. Real classy.

You ever been to Mexico? Not fucking Rocky Point. Ciudad Juarez.

Number 100 of 182 on the corruption index
Number 89 of 135 on gender equality
The water in certain parts of it will make you sick.

And I'll just leave this here.

Shithole country.

Eh, fair enough I guess.

A lot of the crime in Mexico is the US's fault though.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

So I ask you Escapists; what do you think of this? How would you handle the situation? Or do you disagree entirely and think there is no problem at all?

As an American I can't comment much on the inter workings of German politics but perhaps I might still take America's own history to propose an idea. Integration of other ethnicities into a culture seems to be accelerated if those in the minority group are more evenly distributed among the population. Perhaps an solution would be to encourage these immigrants to move for jobs. Problems seem to arrive in these situations when we have clusters of different cultures. Spread them out and educate both sides to be tolerate of the other group. That would be my suggestion.

*Sigh*, I'm so glad Americans and Europeans hate each other.

Anyway, a few things I want to touch upon. Admittedly, I know little of the Roma and their history, but since so many comments are almost word-for-word made at our expense across the pond, I couldn't help myself from stepping in:

1. They don't want to integrate: This is shady at best. We have done our darnedest to integrate into White America since the Emancipation, but these funny things get in the way like White Flight, Gentrification, School districts drawn along racial lines, and that's just recently. And yet, we are accused of not integrating. So I'll go with my gut and say bullshit. Between the Inquisition, Nazis, Colonialism, the Crusades, that mess with Puritans, and other historical events my American education may have glossed over, Europe's record on inclusion is worse than America's. The only "Other" that has ever come close to smoothly integrating is the Jewish, and all it required was 6 million Jewish lives and crushing Gentile Guilt for that to happen. (Of course, it's not called Gentile Guilt. My word, that would be Anti-Semitic, a special kind of racism that is worse than all the rest. You can tell because it has a special name). They're nomads for the same reason Jews lived in their own secluded and crumbling enclaves once upon a time.

2. They cause their own problems: This comment is particularly delicious, let's break this morsel down. "They" reflects that the speaker has identified the group as separate from their own (So much for integration. It takes two folks; spaghetti used to be exotic here). The rest firmly declares that the plights of the group in question is not their responsibility. As such, the group is not only neglected by the state, their citizenship is of lower value, or of no value at all. To put this in an American Context: Failure of schools is a national tragedy and teachers need to be fired. Failure of Black schools (notice the racialization vs. normalization) is business as usual, and the children need to straighten up. Or, we could use crime:

3. They don't want an education: While I can't speak for myself, Black students do buy into the "Blacks are stupid" propaganda, at least subconsciously (I always considered myself a genius, or gifted at least). This psychological block is not to be underestimated, and nothing short of vigorous intervention can undo this, as seen in the rare but amazingly successful schools that specialize in educating poor Black male students. I imagine the Roma, having been excluded from European society for centuries, have a similar psychological block and likely require even greater devotion to quality education and stronger student-faculty relations. Or for something more poetic:

If you make a man feel inferior, you do not have to compel him to accept an inferior status, for he will seek it himself. If you make a man think that he is justly an outcast, you do not have to order him to the back door. He will go without being told; and if there is no back door, his very nature will demand one.

Special Bonus: There is a reason Chris Rock has only made that joke once, and regrets it to this day. But hey, if you want truth in humor, go for Paul Mooney.

Speaking of the European right wing, the Dutch PVV party of Geert Wilders keeps getting a lot of votes here. He wants the country to adopt more isolationist policies... in a country that lives off international trade...

Idiots.

Freechoice:

You ever been to Mexico? Not fucking Rocky Point. Ciudad Juarez.

Number 100 of 182 on the corruption index
Number 89 of 135 on gender equality
The water in certain parts of it will make you sick.

And I'll just leave this here.

Shithole country.

Sure, and south central LA is a pleasure park.

Mexico is like any country - use common sense in where you go and what you do and you're not going to be in any trouble whatsoever. Anywhere tourists are likely to go (i.e. not places like Ciudad Juarez) they're no less safe than they would be in the USA or Europe.

Solution!

hire americans. we need work and we're more easily integrated.

generals3:
This discussion is reaching a ridiculous point. It is quite clear that there is a discrimination issue and that gypsies lack the will to integrate. But why should a society accept people that rejects all its principles? If they want to be accepted they better start following our laws and integrate. The opportunities are there and we have laws that protect them from discrimination. The ball is on their court. Whatever ball was thrown by societies in the past is irrelevant if we want to get forward. Don't clinge to the past and lets think about the future.

Agreed.

Dear immigrants: you are not an admin, breaking the rules will result in an immediate and permanent ban.

Agema:

Freechoice:

You ever been to Mexico? Not fucking Rocky Point. Ciudad Juarez.

Number 100 of 182 on the corruption index
Number 89 of 135 on gender equality
The water in certain parts of it will make you sick.

And I'll just leave this here.

Shithole country.

Sure, and south central LA is a pleasure park.

Mexico is like any country - use common sense in where you go and what you do and you're not going to be in any trouble whatsoever. Anywhere tourists are likely to go (i.e. not places like Ciudad Juarez) they're no less safe than they would be in the USA or Europe.

Mexico is not just like any other place. Every single country doesn't have the kinds of problems with cartels that Mexico does.

TheLion:
*Sigh*, I'm so glad Americans and Europeans hate each other.

Anyway, a few things I want to touch upon. Admittedly, I know little of the Roma and their history, but since so many comments are almost word-for-word made at our expense across the pond, I couldn't help myself from stepping in[...]

Uhm, cool story bro, but did you catch the bit about this being related to immigrants and in a context of various European countries? Blacks in the US are not immigrants and US society is incomparable in this discussion because there is no such thing as an integration policy there.

Also, in relation to the gypsies, there hasn't been exclusion for decades and decades in most places, and even before that, most discriminated minorities were doing much better than the gypsies were. Catholics were officially second rate citizens with fewer rights in my country for centuries, ever since the overthrow of the Spanish up untill pretty much the 20th century. I don't see them screwing up massively or spending all their time complaining. Same goes for orthodox protestants. I grew up among them, and if any group is so utterly obnoxious they deserve to be left out, it's them. Yet, they succeed by selectively burying that obnoxiousness, for instance at work, and only bringing it out if they're in a position of power.

As for the gypsies, in the earlier discussion, concrete examples were named of own fault-related factors which explain the position of gypsies:

-Regarding children as adults from an early age
Like my link (from a gypsy action group no less) showed, male children are left to make their own decisions from somewhere age 12-13, leading them to quit or fail school.

-Bad language skills
Parents don't bother to teach gypsy children the language of their country well, and are often quite limited in their expressions themselves. All forms of succes start with language.

-Traditional role models
Girls are considered to be fit for marriage from somewhere age 12. Now laws regarding marriage age have bumped this up a few years to prevent criminal prosecution, but point remains women are regarded as useless housekeepers and breeders. Obviously disabling half your group from any form of succes in society isn't doing the group's chances any favours.

-The large role that crime plays
Earnings on the black market and crime are traditionally held in high regard among gypsies. Why work hard or attend school if a quick buck can be made peddling stolen goods, or stealing goods, or selling drugs? For instance what you often see in gypsy camps is so-called car repair companies, meaning that if you want to sell a stolen car, you go to a gypsy camp. They tear it apart for parts and sell it on through those parts companies they run. I've seen camps so bad that literally every mobile home on it had a sign of such a parts shop with only a mobile phone number outside

-Choosing a nomadic lifestyle
While made difficult in many countries, many gypsies want to be nomadic or semi-nomadic. The costs of moving are fairly high, and obviously this prevents getting an education or making a career for oneself.

Volf:

Agema:

Freechoice:

You ever been to Mexico? Not fucking Rocky Point. Ciudad Juarez.

Number 100 of 182 on the corruption index
Number 89 of 135 on gender equality
The water in certain parts of it will make you sick.

And I'll just leave this here.

Shithole country.

Sure, and south central LA is a pleasure park.

Mexico is like any country - use common sense in where you go and what you do and you're not going to be in any trouble whatsoever. Anywhere tourists are likely to go (i.e. not places like Ciudad Juarez) they're no less safe than they would be in the USA or Europe.

Mexico is not just like any other place. Every single country doesn't have the kinds of problems with cartels that Mexico does.

Such is the problem that Ubisoft published a game about it.

Volf:
Mexico is not just like any other place. Every single country doesn't have the kinds of problems with cartels that Mexico does.

He's talking about the practicalities of actually living there, on the ground, in a house, walking around the corner to get food and driving to work and back every day.

I've gotta say, in my experience, most places are pretty much the same to live in except for the general level of competency, volume, and the weather. Wake up, eat, work, eat, sleep. See friends every now and again.

As for this thread: I think attracting a lot of young immigrants is a good solution to the 'grey wave' demographic problem.

Bassik:
Speaking of the European right wing, the Dutch PVV party of Geert Wilders keeps getting a lot of votes here. He wants the country to adopt more isolationist policies... in a country that lives off international trade...

Idiots.

Yes and no. Japan for example, is very isolationist, but not when it comes to trade. Everything else, yes. It works for them.

The PVV are a problem, but mostly because they are so loud and undiplomatic.
Compare the PVV to Americans or Australians, or basicly anywhere outside of Europe and they are still a centrist lot, both economically and in a liberal sense.
Tolerance is an extremely rare thing in this world. It's precious enough that we should try to keep it, but since it's not universal, a hard shell around the soft bits may be necessary.

The PVV just haven't learned to paint that shell in nice pretty colors like most nations do, which is both a blessing and a curse. It keeps the reasonable voters away from them, which keeps down their size, but it's also causing most of the trouble.

Danny Ocean:

Volf:
Mexico is not just like any other place. Every single country doesn't have the kinds of problems with cartels that Mexico does.

He's talking about the practicalities of actually living there, on the ground, in a house, walking around the corner to get food and driving to work and back every day.

I've gotta say, in my experience, most places are pretty much the same to live in except for the general level of competency, volume, and the weather. Wake up, eat, work, eat, sleep. See friends every now and again.

As for this thread: I think attracting a lot of young immigrants is a good solution to the 'grey wave' demographic problem.

Except the guy was referring to crime as well, which is why I pointed out that not every country has drug cartels running the place.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked