You know, it's crap like this why I hate the Church. I am Ashamed that I was raised Catholic. Such morons. Here is how to improve yourselves: Allow priests to marry, you frankly don't know that the deciples didn't get married, also let women be priests, that stuff happened 2000 years ago, times change. That's my opinion anyway. By the way, poverty is a bigger issue than gay marrige or abortion. I guarentee the amount.of poor people on this planet outweigh the gay and aborted people. Priorities people.
Even within the confines of 'Oh, the Vatican...' that's both sad and hilarious.
Then again, according to some church historians, the catholic church is pretty much being hijacked by extremists from Africa and South America where simple people without much knowledge and poverty still guarantee a pretty medieval outlook at religious matters. They apparently control most of what the catholic church does, while most normal catholics in western countries have moved with the times.
I mean, if a well-known catholic songwriter (who's really quite awesome a comedian if you can understand Dutch) jokes about a well-known Christian commentator that he dies, goes to heaven, looks around there and then exclaims to god "But that's against the teachings!" and god responds by saying "Exactly, that's why everything is so nice around here", there's a disparity beween catholics and their church.
Blablahb: They apparently control most of what the catholic church does, while most normal catholics in western countries have moved with the times.
Yeah. I remember hearing a statistic recently that Italy (presumably the "most" Catholic country) has one of the lowest fertility rates in the world, obviously due to Italians not following the church's teachings on contraceptives. Shame about Africa and that whole AIDS thing though, eh?
Hey god? I know you typically don't let people break that coming-back-from-the-dead rule (Jesus and Lazarus aside), but can you make an exception and let John Paul II be the pope again?
-Sincerely, a lapsed Catholic
God, I can't wait for the next pope, which (if the predictions from the last papal election are true) will be someone more moderate. Hopefully he also makes us hold another Vatican Council, we sincerely need to get the institutional side of the Church up-to-date. Let women serve, let priests marry, and stop with the hating on the gays, and then you'll see me in Church again.
Really not suprised by this. Heaven forbid they spend more time helping people rather than enforcing an outdated religious docterine. Catholic Church once again proving it is more about power and control than morality and helping people.
scotth266: Hey god? I know you typically don't let people break that coming-back-from-the-dead rule (Jesus and Lazarus aside), but can you make an exception and let John Paul II be the pope again?
-Sincerely, a lapsed Catholic
God, I can't wait for the next pope, which (if the predictions from the last papal election are true) will be someone more moderate. Hopefully he also makes us hold another Vatican Council, we sincerely need to get the institutional side of the Church up-to-date. Let women serve, let priests marry, and stop with the hating on the gays, and then you'll see me in Church again.
I hope you add something about contraception in there too.
You know, it's crap like this why I hate the Church. I am Ashamed that I was raised Catholic. Such morons. Here is how to improve yourselves: Allow priests to marry, you frankly don't know that the deciples didn't get married, also let women be priests, that stuff happened 2000 years ago, times change. That's my opinion anyway. By the way, poverty is a bigger issue than gay marrige or abortion. I guarentee the amount.of poor people on this planet outweigh the gay and aborted people. Priorities people.
the catholic church stopped priests from marrying for a very simple reason. to stop the spouses and children from inheriting anything remotely the church considered its property.
this is messed up, condeming them for being too concerned with poverty is wrong beyond belief
You know, it's crap like this why I hate the Church. I am Ashamed that I was raised Catholic. Such morons. Here is how to improve yourselves: Allow priests to marry, you frankly don't know that the deciples didn't get married, also let women be priests, that stuff happened 2000 years ago, times change. That's my opinion anyway. By the way, poverty is a bigger issue than gay marrige or abortion. I guarentee the amount.of poor people on this planet outweigh the gay and aborted people. Priorities people.
Priorities? How about any shred of credibility? If god is unchanging (a necessary side-effect of perfection), and the church is passing on god's teachings, how can the church possibly change? For the church to change, it would have to admit that it was wrong, and that robs it of literally all credibility it ever had (which is still almost none to people with a brain). Church doctrine quite literally CANNOT change.
thaluikhain: I also liked how you can't disagree with a bishop.
So if someone becomes a bishop and then says "Gays are pretty cool", everyone would have to agree?
After reading this I'm, in an odd sort of way, tempted to get myself baptised with the intent of rising as far as I can. I could be a 'humanist sleeper agent'!
After reading this I'm, in an odd sort of way, tempted to get myself baptised with the intent of rising as far as I can. I could be a 'humanist sleeper agent'!
Pope: I am proud to accept you as a bishop, One Catch.
You: Hmhm, great. I declare that God does not exist.
After reading this I'm, in an odd sort of way, tempted to get myself baptised with the intent of rising as far as I can. I could be a 'humanist sleeper agent'!
Pope: I am proud to accept you as a bishop, One Catch.
You: Hmhm, great. I declare that God does not exist.
-Pope's head explodes-
I have, inspired by some other members' judicious use of paint, in this post in particular; decided to provide an accurate yet beautifully artistic rendition of these hypothetical events:
BEHOLD MY ARTISTIC VIRTUE!PHA+PGltZyBzcmM9Imh0dHA6Ly9pNDAudGlueXBpYy5jb20vMnlteWpqby5qcGciIGFsdD0iaW1hZ2UiLz48L3A+
After reading this I'm, in an odd sort of way, tempted to get myself baptised with the intent of rising as far as I can. I could be a 'humanist sleeper agent'!
Pope: I am proud to accept you as a bishop, One Catch.
You: Hmhm, great. I declare that God does not exist.
-Pope's head explodes-
I have, inspired by some other members' judicious use of paint, in this post in particular; decided to provide an accurate yet beautifully artistic rendition of these hypothetical events:
BEHOLD MY ARTISTIC VIRTUE!PHA+PGltZyBzcmM9Imh0dHA6Ly9pNDAudGlueXBpYy5jb20vMnlteWpqby5qcGciIGFsdD0iaW1hZ2UiLz48L3A+
That bishop is spy!
OT: As it has been stated, this isn't really news. Honestly, if I actually was religious, I would dump Catholicism and choose Presybeterianism because they get so many things right.
Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, I would probably agree with Deism more. Also, Protestantism brought gospel music. *shudder*
You know, it's crap like this why I hate the Church. I am Ashamed that I was raised Catholic. Such morons. Here is how to improve yourselves: Allow priests to marry, you frankly don't know that the deciples didn't get married, also let women be priests, that stuff happened 2000 years ago, times change. That's my opinion anyway. By the way, poverty is a bigger issue than gay marrige or abortion. I guarentee the amount.of poor people on this planet outweigh the gay and aborted people. Priorities people.
Oh, yeah, thanks for calling us Morons. Really makes us want to listen to what you have to say. I agree that the Vatican is acting foolish right now. Usually most Catholics (at least American ones) are very liberal, this just seems like some sort of move that a REALLY zealous southern baptist church would pull.
scotth266: Hey god? I know you typically don't let people break that coming-back-from-the-dead rule (Jesus and Lazarus aside), but can you make an exception and let John Paul II be the pope again?
-Sincerely, a lapsed Catholic
God, I can't wait for the next pope, which (if the predictions from the last papal election are true) will be someone more moderate. Hopefully he also makes us hold another Vatican Council, we sincerely need to get the institutional side of the Church up-to-date. Let women serve, let priests marry, and stop with the hating on the gays, and then you'll see me in Church again.
Dear lord, it would be wonderful to have Pope John Paul II back again, I'd hate to insult his holiness, but I just find Benedict XVI's views to be a bit too... Conservative for my liking.
I'm a tad bit of a traditionalist however, so I'm pretty Neutral on "Women Serving" and slightly against "Priest's Marrying" but yeah, the church needs to stop hating on gays and freaking out over contraception.
It seems to me like the quote in the article about spending less time on poverty came from the dissenting nuns, not the Vatican. It doesn't make the story great or the nuns bad, but it seems like the Pope didn't actually tell nuns to stop worrying about poverty like the author suggests. In 10 articles on the same story, I didn't find that quote actually attributed to someone.
Yeah, but the collection of what is "church doctrine" changes depending on what standards you're looking at. If you are talking about the things tought as infallible, there's like 10 things ever other than the Bible that hit that list. Everything else the Church has ever done or said has all the fallibility of people as far as the Church is concerned. All the social commentary about contraceptions or what-not could change pretty easily without skipping a beat.
Meh. If you want to claim membership in a hierarchical organization founded on the infallibility of its ideology, then be prepared to either toe the line or get slapped.
scotth266: Hey god? I know you typically don't let people break that coming-back-from-the-dead rule (Jesus and Lazarus aside), but can you make an exception and let John Paul II be the pope again?
-Sincerely, a lapsed Catholic
God, I can't wait for the next pope, which (if the predictions from the last papal election are true) will be someone more moderate. Hopefully he also makes us hold another Vatican Council, we sincerely need to get the institutional side of the Church up-to-date. Let women serve, let priests marry, and stop with the hating on the gays, and then you'll see me in Church again.
God: But I just thought you said you wanted me to bring the old pope back to life, now you want a new one as well? MAKE UP YOUR MIND!
OT: Oh Vatican, how much your antics amuse me so.
It is very sad your one of the largest organizations on the planet.
Yeah, but the collection of what is "church doctrine" changes depending on what standards you're looking at. If you are talking about the things tought as infallible, there's like 10 things ever other than the Bible that hit that list. Everything else the Church has ever done or said has all the fallibility of people as far as the Church is concerned. All the social commentary about contraceptions or what-not could change pretty easily without skipping a beat.
...Wait, so a ton of the church doctrines are NOT given from god, but rather just invented by the fucking church itself?
...
...I can't be the only one who thinks that that is pretty fucking retarded.
Stagnant: ...Wait, so a ton of the church doctrines are NOT given from god, but rather just invented by the fucking church itself?
Well, yeah, short of angels popping down every other week to vote on current issues, the church has to make its own rules up as it goes along.
That's sort of the point of a church, really. If you have a list of rules handed down from up high for people to follow and eveyrone knows what they are, no point getting bishops to tell people what to do.
Well, if that's not a disgustingly transparent attempt to control people, I don't know what is. Can anyone explain this to me? The bishops aren't speaking for god, or using rules passed down by god... Why should we listen to them?
Ratzinger is the leader of the organization, so he can order them to do or say whatever he wish them to, or simply excommunicate them. If they don't like that, then they can leave, it was hardly unknown to them that the catholic church is a hierarchical organization, and that they are at the bottom of it.
These women were already bashing gays anyway, qua their firm allegiance to and promotion of the gaybashing organization that is the catholic church. They should not be surprised that they actually be held to the dogma they have chosen to embrace; The catholic church is filth, and asking its members to spread that filth is par for the course.
Stagnant: For the church to change, it would have to admit that it was wrong, and that robs it of literally all credibility it ever had (which is still almost none to people with a brain). Church doctrine quite literally CANNOT change.
Well they've changed before. They used to be all strict about the "no meat on this certain day" thing then one day they gave that up and stopped caring about that particular rule. I still hold out hope that at some point they will at least stop actively hating on gay people. They might not be nice to us, but hopefully they'll stop being slanderous douchebags about it.
Stagnant: For the church to change, it would have to admit that it was wrong, and that robs it of literally all credibility it ever had (which is still almost none to people with a brain). Church doctrine quite literally CANNOT change.
Well they've changed before. They used to be all strict about the "no meat on this certain day" thing then one day they gave that up and stopped caring about that particular rule. I still hold out hope that at some point they will at least stop actively hating on gay people. They might not be nice to us, but hopefully they'll stop being slanderous douchebags about it.
Yes, they have changed before, which, again, begs the question: did god change, or was the church just wrong/lying?
Stagnant: For the church to change, it would have to admit that it was wrong, and that robs it of literally all credibility it ever had (which is still almost none to people with a brain). Church doctrine quite literally CANNOT change.
Well they've changed before. They used to be all strict about the "no meat on this certain day" thing then one day they gave that up and stopped caring about that particular rule. I still hold out hope that at some point they will at least stop actively hating on gay people. They might not be nice to us, but hopefully they'll stop being slanderous douchebags about it.
Yes, they have changed before, which, again, begs the question: did god change, or was the church just wrong/lying?
I'm guessing it's something like the Mormons realising that hating on black people was no longer the 'in' thing.
According to first-person accounts, after much discussion among the members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles on this matter, they engaged the Lord in prayer. According to the writing of one of those present, Bruce R. McConkie of the Twelve: "It was during this prayer that the revelation came. The Spirit of the Lord rested upon us all; we felt something akin to what happened on the day of Pentecost and at the Kirtland Temple. From the midst of eternity, the voice of God, conveyed by the power of the Spirit, spoke to his prophet. The message was that the time had now come to offer the fullness of the everlasting gospel, including celestial marriage, and the priesthood, and the blessings of the temple, to all men, without reference to race or color, solely on the basis of personal worthiness. And we all heard the same voice, received the same message, and became personal witnesses that the word received was the mind and will and voice of the Lord."
Gordon B. Hinckley, a participant in the meetings to reverse the ban, said, "Not one of us who was present on that occasion was ever quite the same after that. Nor has the Church been quite the same. All of us knew that the time had come for a change and that the decision had come from the heavens. The answer was clear. There was perfect unity among us in our experience and in our understanding."
See? Simple. Find doctrine that's no longer socially acceptable? Pray to God and then suddenly he'll be all "LOL J/K GUYS IT'S COOL".
Stagnant: For the church to change, it would have to admit that it was wrong, and that robs it of literally all credibility it ever had (which is still almost none to people with a brain). Church doctrine quite literally CANNOT change.
Well they've changed before. They used to be all strict about the "no meat on this certain day" thing then one day they gave that up and stopped caring about that particular rule. I still hold out hope that at some point they will at least stop actively hating on gay people. They might not be nice to us, but hopefully they'll stop being slanderous douchebags about it.
Yes, they have changed before, which, again, begs the question: did god change, or was the church just wrong/lying?
Well I've always been taught not to trust old men in dresses offering me free things (even if it is eternal salvation) so I'm going to have to go ahead and call them liars who make shit up on the fly under the pretence of being "infallible" because of their connection to God.
Unless God honestly spoke to the Pope just to tell him that it was okay for his followers to eat meat on that one particular day again. Which seems like a bit of micro-management unfitting for God to personally get involved in sorting out.
Then again I'm a godless heathen and part of the homosexual menace, so what do I know about divine will or the Church, right?
Amnestic: See? Simple. Find doctrine that's no longer socially acceptable? Pray to God and then suddenly he'll be all "LOL J/K GUYS IT'S COOL".
So now the countdown begins until the Catholic higher-ups notice that people aren't agreeing with them on the "gays are evil" thing and say that God spoke to them about their gay-hating and told them to cut that shit out.
And with 53% of Americans now supporting same-sex marriage, this might not take as long as I thought it would...
...Wait, so a ton of the church doctrines are NOT given from god, but rather just invented by the fucking church itself?
...
...I can't be the only one who thinks that that is pretty fucking retarded.
I can see where you think that, but it'd be equally retarded to say "with regards to the specific problem related to faith, religious practice, or morals... screw it, we're only human, decide for yourself." It'd be pretty honest, but grossly unhelpful. It'd be like whatever scientific authority saying "we're not as confident about why gravity exists as we are electricity, so we're not going to talk about gravity."
I do think the Church should make it more clear that the only doctrine that's meant to be perfect is the founding ideas (the stuff about and from Jesus) and teachings that invoke Papal infallibility. Papal infallibilty has only been invoked once since the term was coined and retroactively applied to Church Council decisions. Absolutely everything else is subject to change.
tstorm823: I can see where you think that, but it'd be equally retarded to say "with regards to the specific problem related to faith, religious practice, or morals... screw it, we're only human, decide for yourself." It'd be pretty honest, but grossly unhelpful. It'd be like whatever scientific authority saying "we're not as confident about why gravity exists as we are electricity, so we're not going to talk about gravity."
But that analogy fails miserably on many levels. For one, science and morality have entirely different groundings and entirely different goals. Then there's the problem that not knowing where something comes from doesn't negate its existence - we know gravity is there. We don't, however, know that it is immoral to be a homosexual, and having bishops say that on their limited authority (and then allowing it to be conflated with "god says this") is insane. Science also refrains from saying with absolution where gravity comes from. It hypothesizes on the matter. It offers potential models to explain reality, not absolute commands.
There is nothing wrong with the church pointing to any particular moral issue, saying "We have no authority on this issue", and encouraging people to make up their own minds about it. Hell, unless it's impossible to name a single moral issue where the church doesn't have a statement on it, they do that already. There is something very wrong, however, with church officials using their own arbitrary human judgement, then placing their decisions on a pedestal and claiming that they are definitely right, especially when it comes to moral issues that are so ethereal, multifaceted, hard-to-grasp, and disputed! Some people say that humanists put humans on an unreasonably high pedestal. I suppose this is just ironic, poetic justice then.
I do think the Church should make it more clear that the only doctrine that's meant to be perfect is the founding ideas (the stuff about and from Jesus) and teachings that invoke Papal infallibility. Papal infallibilty has only been invoked once since the term was coined and retroactively applied to Church Council decisions. Absolutely everything else is subject to change.
But then why trust the bishops at all? They aren't speaking from god, they aren't using the teachings of divine morality, they're essentially talking out of their asses!
SmashLovesTitanQuest: But the popes German. And im German. That means I have to be proud and patriotic about all of this.
But now you have emperor Palpatine. What little can be more awesome than that?
Stagnant: Well, if that's not a disgustingly transparent attempt to control people, I don't know what is. Can anyone explain this to me? The bishops aren't speaking for god, or using rules passed down by god... Why should we listen to them?
I think you just summed up the entire protestant uprising of a few centuries back. ^_^
Stagnant: Der Bild-Zeitung ist UNGLAUBLICH scheisse. -.-
As a small and totally offtopic question to improve my German, is it unglaublich or unglaubliche because it's an adjective in that case?
You know, it's crap like this why I hate the Church. I am Ashamed that I was raised Catholic. Such morons. Here is how to improve yourselves: Allow priests to marry, you frankly don't know that the deciples didn't get married, also let women be priests, that stuff happened 2000 years ago, times change. That's my opinion anyway. By the way, poverty is a bigger issue than gay marrige or abortion. I guarentee the amount.of poor people on this planet outweigh the gay and aborted people. Priorities people.
I don't want to sound like one of those weirdos that believes "The Da Vinci Code story was real!" but we also have to consider that it's highly possible that Jesus was married as well. Even if one discards that possibility, in the scripture records, Jesus showed a MUCH more accepting/inclusive attitude towards women (in first century Isreal, which was a highly patriarchal and sexist culture!) than the Church does today!
[quote="Stagnant" post="528.371494.14365676"] But then why trust the bishops at all? They aren't speaking from god, they aren't using the teachings of divine morality, they're essentially talking out of their asses!
[quote]
The same reason you listen to what a political science professor has to say about politics... they're paid to spend their time on the stuff and (most) have gone through a higher education on theology.
http://www.windsorstar.com/news/Catholic+nuns+group+stunned+slap+from+Vatican/6489438/story.html
You know, it's crap like this why I hate the Church. I am Ashamed that I was raised Catholic. Such morons. Here is how to improve yourselves: Allow priests to marry, you frankly don't know that the deciples didn't get married, also let women be priests, that stuff happened 2000 years ago, times change. That's my opinion anyway. By the way, poverty is a bigger issue than gay marrige or abortion. I guarentee the amount.of poor people on this planet outweigh the gay and aborted people. Priorities people.