Let's talk about Irish Politics again Children!!! (Part 3:The Household Charge)

Random link on it from google news: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0423/breaking37.html
And from last year:

The basic summary of this is a flat charge of 100 euro per homeowner to help balance the budget, austerity, etc etc.

Now you may remember last year I went on a rant against our government for shutting down the only A&E in my county for up to 125km. Given the inherent flaw of flat taxes and the blatant favouritism for Dublin that the government posesses, you can probably understand why I'm pissed at Fine Gael and other Irish Fiscal Conservatives who support this. However I'm far from having an objective opinion on this so I'm asking the polarised curmudgeons of R&P for their opinions on this.


-Do you have an opinion on Irish Politics?
-What do you think of the household charge?
-Why is there blood on your clothes?

1. I've never really paid attention to Irish politics (at least not ROI stuff) although I really should considering I live next door.
2. Isn't it a lot like poll tax? (hint, that thing that brought down Margaret Thatcher)
3. Why not?

DJjaffacake:

2. Isn't it a lot like poll tax? (hint, that thing that brought down Margaret Thatcher)

Not exactly, it only affects houseowners (as far as I know) I'm just pissed at the idea of a flat tax for loacl services given the blatant inequality in distribution of services across the country.

Ninjamedic:

DJjaffacake:

2. Isn't it a lot like poll tax? (hint, that thing that brought down Margaret Thatcher)

Not exactly, it only affects houseowners (as far as I know) I'm just pissed at the idea of a flat tax for local services given the blatant inequality in distribution of services across the country.

Ah, I see the difference now, but the basic idea of a flat tax for everyone in a certain group is the same. And, I agree, just as utterly retarded. Maybe since the EU basically owns Ireland now they can sort it out. Insert hearty laugh.

DJjaffacake:
Maybe since the EU basically owns Ireland now they can sort it out. Insert hearty laugh.

Would you believe I have nothing against Europe? Given the amount of money Fianna Fail wasted with no one calling them out on it.

Ninjamedic:

DJjaffacake:
Maybe since the EU basically owns Ireland now they can sort it out. Insert hearty laugh.

Would you believe I have nothing against Europe? Given the amount of money Fianna Fail wasted with no one calling them out on it.

Fear not, my eurobashing is only half serious. Maybe I'm just too entrenched in my 'European but not' ways, they have helped Ireland, Portugal, Greece etc.

DJjaffacake:
Fear not, my eurobashing is only half serious. Maybe I'm just too entrenched in my 'European but not' ways, they have helped Ireland, Portugal, Greece etc.

Thry're blamed for everything here, they've become the "new Brits".

Ninjamedic:

DJjaffacake:
Fear not, my eurobashing is only half serious. Maybe I'm just too entrenched in my 'European but not' ways, they have helped Ireland, Portugal, Greece etc.

Thry're blamed for everything here, they've become the "new Brits".

I think they're blamed for everything in every EU country. The ones that needed bailing out don't like having all these rules and restrictions imposed on them (nevermind the appointed governments) and the rich countries complain because they have to foot the bill. They'd be the 'new Europeans' over here except, well yeah.

DJjaffacake:
I think they're blamed for everything in every EU country. The ones that needed bailing out don't like having all these rules and restrictions imposed on them (nevermind the appointed governments) and the rich countries complain because they have to foot the bill. They'd be the 'new Europeans' over here except, well yeah.

The fact Sinn Fein is considered the main oppositon party in the Dail is sobering, like watching the country fall into insanity.

Ninjamedic:

DJjaffacake:
I think they're blamed for everything in every EU country. The ones that needed bailing out don't like having all these rules and restrictions imposed on them (nevermind the appointed governments) and the rich countries complain because they have to foot the bill. They'd be the 'new Europeans' over here except, well yeah.

The fact Sinn Fein is considered the main oppositon party in the Dail is sobering, like watching the country fall into insanity.

I thought Sinn Fein was fairly highly regarded in the ROI, kind of taking up the necessary centre left role. Although I consider the NI bit to be a collection of morons and terrorism apologists.

DJjaffacake:
Although I consider the NI bit to be a collection of morons and terrorism apologists.

They're the same people down here. McGuiness had the spine to run for President over here.

Ninjamedic:

DJjaffacake:
Although I consider the NI bit to be a collection of morons and terrorism apologists.

They're the same people down here. McGuiness had the spine to run for President over here.

Oh, I did hear about that. That man has no right to be running a country, especially not one who's people he killed.

DJjaffacake:
Oh, I did hear about that. That man has no right to be running a country, especially not one who's people he killed.

His reasoning "The other side did it as well!!".

Ninjamedic:

DJjaffacake:
Oh, I did hear about that. That man has no right to be running a country, especially not one who's people he killed.

His reasoning "The other side did it as well!!".

So who are the normal centre left, centre right parties then?

DJjaffacake:

Ninjamedic:

DJjaffacake:
Oh, I did hear about that. That man has no right to be running a country, especially not one who's people he killed.

His reasoning "The other side did it as well!!".

So who are the normal centre left, centre right parties then?

Well SF are supposed to be centre left, but beyond standard oppositon rhetoric I have no real idea as to what their full policies are. For the left wing we have the Technical Group.

Ninjamedic:

DJjaffacake:

Ninjamedic:

His reasoning "The other side did it as well!!".

So who are the normal centre left, centre right parties then?

Well SF are supposed to be centre left, but beyond standard oppositon rhetoric I have no real idea as to what their full policies are. For the left wing we have the Technical Group.

A quick google suggests the technical group are more of a loose group of independents and small parties than a single political party?

DJjaffacake:
A quick google suggests the technical group are more of a loose group of independents and small parties than a single political party?

Good enough for me, at least they have a chance of getting their voice heard.

Ninjamedic:
-Do you have an opinion on Irish Politics?
-What do you think of the household charge?
-Why is there blood on your clothes

1. I'm going to be honest here, and don't take this as an insult, but I've never really cared much for it. I'm part Irish myself, but I've never been there (or to any part of Europe, at all) and don't follow them on the news.

2. Again, due to my lack of knowledge, I can't say. This sounds like property tax. Do ya'll pay property tax there? If so, how much? Because without that knowledge, I can't really say.

3. *Looks down*. Hunh. Wonder where that came from.

I don't see anything wrong with a small flat tax on property. I think a market value tax makes more sense, but if its $100/house, its not even worth doing the math to charge less than $100. If $100/year forces you out of the house, you couldn't live in that house anyway if you were being honest.

Wolverine18:
I don't see anything wrong with a small flat tax on property. I think a market value tax makes more sense, but if its $100/house, its not even worth doing the math to charge less than $100. If $100/year forces you out of the house, you couldn't live in that house anyway if you were being honest.

Well I was more annoyed at the flat charge given the imbalance of distribution of services.

Curse you house charge! Themz my naggins' Money!.
Most of the people here paid up, shot quite a few in the foot for a while.

Ninjamedic:

Wolverine18:
I don't see anything wrong with a small flat tax on property. I think a market value tax makes more sense, but if its $100/house, its not even worth doing the math to charge less than $100. If $100/year forces you out of the house, you couldn't live in that house anyway if you were being honest.

Well I was more annoyed at the flat charge given the imbalance of distribution of services.

Exactly, use a little of the money raised refit the damn buses and roads or something, i use them to get around and i swear there was a hole the size of my head in the floor, i could see the damn road.

Pandalisk:

Exactly, use a little of the money raised refit the damn buses and roads or something, i use them to get around and i swear there was a hole the size of my head in the floor, i could see the damn road.

I'm fed up of having to take a 3-5 hour train just to get from Roscommon to Carlow.

Pandalisk:
Curse you house charge! Themz my naggins' Money!.
Most of the people here paid up, shot quite a few in the foot for a while.

Ninjamedic:

Wolverine18:
I don't see anything wrong with a small flat tax on property. I think a market value tax makes more sense, but if its $100/house, its not even worth doing the math to charge less than $100. If $100/year forces you out of the house, you couldn't live in that house anyway if you were being honest.

Well I was more annoyed at the flat charge given the imbalance of distribution of services.

Exactly, use a little of the money raised refit the damn buses and roads or something, i use them to get around and i swear there was a hole the size of my head in the floor, i could see the damn road.

You do understand that the tax is replacing something else right? There is NO new money being generated.

Wolverine18:

You do understand that the tax is replacing something else right? There is NO new money being generated.

Point is, if there was money generated, it would be spent in Dublin.

Wolverine18:

Pandalisk:
Curse you house charge! Themz my naggins' Money!.
Most of the people here paid up, shot quite a few in the foot for a while.

Ninjamedic:

Well I was more annoyed at the flat charge given the imbalance of distribution of services.

Exactly, use a little of the money raised refit the damn buses and roads or something, i use them to get around and i swear there was a hole the size of my head in the floor, i could see the damn road.

You do understand that the tax is replacing something else right? There is NO new money being generated.

The tax is for pretty much everything as far as i can tell, they claim its for services, infrastructure austerity. It includes my buses and their refitting if they chose to do so.

Ninjamedic:

Wolverine18:

You do understand that the tax is replacing something else right? There is NO new money being generated.

Point is, if there was money generated, it would be spent in Dublin.

Oh, well then you have no problem with the tax. It IS being spent locally where collected.

Pandalisk:

Wolverine18:

Pandalisk:
Curse you house charge! Themz my naggins' Money!.
Most of the people here paid up, shot quite a few in the foot for a while.

Exactly, use a little of the money raised refit the damn buses and roads or something, i use them to get around and i swear there was a hole the size of my head in the floor, i could see the damn road.

You do understand that the tax is replacing something else right? There is NO new money being generated.

The tax is for pretty much everything as far as i can tell, they claim its for services, infrastructure austerity. It includes my buses and their refitting if they chose to do so.

This replaces EXISTING funds from a different source. With the other source lost, its this or your services would be CUT. There is no new money to do anything new. The only way from them to choose to do what you ask is to stop doing something else.

Personally I was shocked to hear you pay no property tax at all before this. What they really should do is tripple that tax (or more) and then you will have some of those new funds you want.

Wolverine18:

Oh, well then you have no problem with the tax. It IS being spent locally where collected.

Not really, people around here are being given infreior services based on location. See the link to my old thread.

Ninjamedic:

Wolverine18:

Oh, well then you have no problem with the tax. It IS being spent locally where collected.

Not really, people around here are being given infreior services based on location. See the link to my old thread.

The $100 is still going locally to everything I've seen published. Therefore while you may have a complaint (that may or may not be valid) it has nothing to do with this new tax that replaces old funds without changing allocation of those funds.

Wolverine18:

The $100 is still going locally to everything I've seen published. Therefore while you may have a complaint (that may or may not be valid) it has nothing to do with this new tax that replaces old funds without changing allocation of those funds.

I can only hope it stays at 100 euro, if it goes up, then we'll have the issue of a flat tax.

Wolverine18:

Pandalisk:

Wolverine18:

You do understand that the tax is replacing something else right? There is NO new money being generated.

The tax is for pretty much everything as far as i can tell, they claim its for services, infrastructure austerity. It includes my buses and their refitting if they chose to do so.

This replaces EXISTING funds from a different source. With the other source lost, its this or your services would be CUT. There is no new money to do anything new. The only way from them to choose to do what you ask is to stop doing something else.

Personally I was shocked to hear you pay no property tax at all before this. What they really should do is tripple that tax (or more) and then you will have some of those new funds you want.

Something new? i just want general maintenance.
"UP TO 47 per cent of Irish adults have less than €100 to spend by the end of the month once bills are paid.And nearly two-thirds have less to spend than they did this time last year, the latest income tracking survey by the Irish League of Credit Unions (ILCU) has claimed."

"YEAH! TRIPLE DEM TAXES!"

The sharing of wealth from Dublin was poorly done even during the Celtic tiger, people are skeptic enough about it for a reason.

Ninjamedic:

Wolverine18:

The $100 is still going locally to everything I've seen published. Therefore while you may have a complaint (that may or may not be valid) it has nothing to do with this new tax that replaces old funds without changing allocation of those funds.

I can only hope it stays at 100 euro, if it goes up, then we'll have the issue of a flat tax.

What generally scares me is how hard it is to even get a hold of information on the household tax. "services" that's all i can dig up online, I can't find anything that says this fund is to "replace" old funds. Got a link somewhere?

Pandalisk:

What generally scares me is how hard it is to even get a hold of information on the household tax "services" that's all i can dig up online, I can't find anything that says this fund is to "replace" old funds. Got a link somewhere?

Apart from opposition interviews, I can't find anything else.

Ninjamedic:

Pandalisk:

What generally scares me is how hard it is to even get a hold of information on the household tax "services" that's all i can dig up online, I can't find anything that says this fund is to "replace" old funds. Got a link somewhere?

Apart from opposition interviews, I can't find anything else.

Its actually driving me nuts. I even have one of those anti-household tax pamphlets, fuck all on that too. it just says "Don't Don't DON'T!"...informative...
Government pages are cryptic enough too.

Pandalisk:

Wolverine18:

Pandalisk:

The tax is for pretty much everything as far as i can tell, they claim its for services, infrastructure austerity. It includes my buses and their refitting if they chose to do so.

This replaces EXISTING funds from a different source. With the other source lost, its this or your services would be CUT. There is no new money to do anything new. The only way from them to choose to do what you ask is to stop doing something else.

Personally I was shocked to hear you pay no property tax at all before this. What they really should do is tripple that tax (or more) and then you will have some of those new funds you want.

Something new? i just want general maintenance.
"UP TO 47 per cent of Irish adults have less than €100 to spend by the end of the month once bills are paid.And nearly two-thirds have less to spend than they did this time last year, the latest income tracking survey by the Irish League of Credit Unions (ILCU) has claimed."

"YEAH! TRIPLE DEM TAXES!"

The sharing of wealth from Dublin was poorly done even during the Celtic tiger, people are skeptic enough about it for a reason.

Well since 100 Euro per household of revenue is being lost, then once again, the alternative are things will be even worse for you if this euro for euro replacement tax is not put in place. Once again, any issue you have with overall service levels is an unrelated question.

As for tripple, yes, actually even 10x the amount. I pay over $3000 CAD per month in property taxes, and that's not unusually high, that's probably average for a city in my province.

As for the "none of us have enough to pay it", that's fine. In that case where should the government cut 164 million euro from your local government spending?

Ninjamedic:

Wolverine18:

The $100 is still going locally to everything I've seen published. Therefore while you may have a complaint (that may or may not be valid) it has nothing to do with this new tax that replaces old funds without changing allocation of those funds.

I can only hope it stays at 100 euro, if it goes up, then we'll have the issue of a flat tax.

What generally scares me is how hard it is to even get a hold of information on the household tax. "services" that's all i can dig up online, I can't find anything that says this fund is to "replace" old funds. Got a link somewhere?

It's in the link in the OP:

"The charge is intended to replace the exchequer element of the Local Government Fund, set up in 1999 as one of the funding sources from central government to local government.

In 2011 exchequer funding was €164 million; in 2012 this was to be replaced by the household charge to the tune of €161 million.

However, no matter what success rate is ultimately achieved, unless 100 per cent of the charge is collected, local authorities will face a gap in their funding."

So you won't see a specific line item for what this pays for, it goes into general revenues (as do most taxes), but is doing so to create a balance.

Now why exchequer funding is cut is another issue entirely, but that's a central government issue, not local. The household charge is a necessary local response to maintain existing service levels (infact at that amount they will still be a few million behind what they used to get)

DJjaffacake:
Oh, I did hear about that. That man has no right to be running a country, especially not one who's people he killed.

I find it hilarious that people still take politics seriously when a war criminal and a murderer can run for president...

 

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