Brian Griffian or when is atheism stupid Pages 1 2 NEXT | |
Yeah, it's something that often comes up, usually in more serious shows. You have someone reflecting the viewpoints of the audience or at least people they coexist with. but in a world where teh rules are different enough to make them incompatible. When you are tossing supernatural elements around, you've got a lot of leeway, but that's something that still doesn't make sense. | |
They also break the fourth wall every show and place characters in surreal situations like Stewie dancing with Gene Kelly. I'm afraid you and your friends have completely missed the point of Family Guy as a show. The last thing Seth Macfarlane is concerned about is continuity and having set rules of reality. The purpose of the show is, for the most part, satire. There are some pieces and arcs that give character development, but comedy is never too far behind. The Grim Reaper and God weren't brought into those episodes to establish them as "real" entities in the world. They were brought in because it served the purposes of the jokes they are telling. I mean really, if the show were mean to be consistent and make sense, why does the rest of the cast sometimes understand Stewie and sometimes doesn't? Why do they get such grievous injuries all the time but rarely have to actually be shown recovering? I mean really, just about every character in that show has been brutally killed over and over again. It was a good try, but I'm afraid you have severely overestimated that aspect of the show. Brian is intended to be a stereotypical atheist/liberal, and because of that every single flaw you can come up with that pertain to those two beliefs can easily be applied to Brian. That is the point of his character--he is a caricature. He is a character with specific and obvious flaws. So obvious, in fact, that it makes him ripe for whatever satire or joke Seth Macfarlane wants make tell about atheists and liberals. And the other characters serve the same purpose--Lois is the middle-aged mom, Chris is the teenage boy, Meg is the teenage girl, Stewie is the baby/supressed genius/gay character, Joe is the cripple, and so on and so forth. They are all made for the purpose of satire. | |
Yeah, this thread can be closed here. You've said all that needs to be said. | |
Reminds me of the Atheists in Discworld (although that fantasy world has a much more consistent tone/rules than Family Guy as Lilani pointed out). Frankly, in the story by Pratchett, I always figured Atheists were less like people who don't believe in the existence of gods but rather people who don't want to worship. When gods literally travel around, throwing stones in Atheists' windows and performing miracles left and right, not believing in them is very silly, but that's also fun and and therefore appropriate for the novels.[1] [1] Also, insert "Small Gods"-plug here. | |
Forgotten Realms takes an amusing turn on this. If you don't worship a deity, you end up in the Wall of the Faithless, where you're basically tormented until one of two things happens. Either a) your soul eventually dissolves into the wall itself (which I guess is akin to annihilation) or b) a demon steals your soul from the wall to...propagate with. It's not really explained what that means. Possibly for the best. Eberron is a lot more forgiving though. Since the nature of gods/the afterlife is deliberately kept more nebulous in that setting, it's not unreasonable to be an atheist, even an atheist cleric. (Also I think Eberron is a far more interesting setting which promotes more politic intrigue-style campaigns than Forgotten Realms does. Also it has sapient battle robots.)
I didn't know people really cared what I thought. *blush* [1] Also, insert "Small Gods"-plug here. | |
Forgotten Realms atheist? What is that, like a Flat-Earther in Star Trek? | |
It actually makes sense, considering the gods require worship in order to exist and keep the afterlife in check. Though, you have to question why ANYONE would be an atheist in a world like FR considering the regular going-ons. At least under 3.5 ed rules. I know they got rid of the wall in 4.0 | |
I'll have to check through my setting books again. That doesn't quite seem right. | |
It's not just atheists, but those who don't worship a chosen deity. Also possibly if your deity dies and its portfolio isn't claimed, but I'm not so sure. And yeah, considering the whole Time of Troubles (for those not in the know: It's when the gods quite literally walked the earth), a Forgotten Realms atheist is pretty unlikely. But it could be an arguable point. I mean, consider the world around you. You see Wizards perform feats of arcane power the likes of which can ensnare souls and minds, leap dimension, transform into a menagerie of mystical and magical beasts, summon demons from the depths of the Abyss itself, stop time and cause destruction on a level far beyond mortal ken. Who's not to say that the things people call 'Gods' are not just masters of the arcane who have become so powerful that they have shed the Material Plane and instead inhabit their own planes*, directing and granting powers to those who seek their favour? Hell, the likes of Superman or Green Lantern have been called "gods among men", but can you imagine what an Epic level Wizard would be like? It's arguable that not worshipping a deity could be seen as simply not worshipping wizards who have grown to enormous strength - those who used to be men but are now something else. Obviously it requires a certain mindset to stretch to that, but it is possible. So yeah, a lot like a flat-earther in Star Trek. If you're ever running an FR campaign, you should try to incorporate an atheist NPC just to see how your party reacts to it. I came up with the idea of an FR Atheist Cleric who is granted his powers by a deity who wants to use him as a pawn and/or plaything. He doesn't get to select his spells every day (DM would select them for him) and believes that the power don't come from any sort of god, but instead from either himself or some other force. Never found a game for him, so he's been shelved. *which I would add Wizards can also create for themselves
A lot of FR stuff got flubbed up (in my opinion) with 4th Edition. "Not quite right" seems appropriate. | |
I would argue that this sort of setting would actually eliminate faith altogether. You can see that deities work on a fairly regular basis (Not hard. Just visit a temple), so faith? Not so much. It's much easier to simply say that the residents would "know" that a deity would exist or not.
Except that that these individuals often worship another deity (Elminster comes to mind) or work on ascension themselves (See: Kelemvor) so it's not that these individuals are the norm nor the most powerful there.
Ur Priest comes to mind. Also, Shar would be the sort who would do something like that. | |
Yes, very amusing. | |
Hey, it's amusing if you're Chaotic Evil.
Ur Priests steal their powers from Gods, while this guy would be given them by one he doesn't even believe in. | |
Family Guy doesn't have much in the realm of continuity. It's entirely possible that in the episodes where Brian calls himself an atheist, he had not seen god. | |
It's also possible that Seth Macfarlane gives precisely zero fucks. Edit: Spelling. Apparently, I can't spell the man's name. | |
It's family guy, a vehicle that dispenses rapid jokes and satire, the storylines are not important. Anybody noticed how the secondary stories have become more interesting then the primary ones? What's up with that? What's up with shows that have secondary storylines anyway? Is it so hard to focus on one story for 20 minutes? | |
Yeah, pretty much. I can't really think of anyone who, given comprehensive proof of god, would continue to disbelieve. | |
You know the weird part is that its established later that Brian doesn't believe in God but in an earlier episode where Peter convinces people he is a healer and they start worshiping him, the plagues of Egypt start to occur and Brian slaps Peter saying "God IS Pissed!" As for Brian...I think this scene summarizes things pretty well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdbnssEZ_Xk&list=FLKLALYnRE5l8z61vPhWwZ-g&index=5&feature=plpp_video But yeah its a show, reading anything deep into it is a mistake. | |
Not necessarily. You would have to assume that whatever was calling itself a God existed, but you wouldn't be compelled to a) accept that it is your creator If you are stubborn enough you could make it logically impossible for a God to prove its existence to you. You'd probably get called out on it a lot by the believers though. And rightly so I suppose. | |
Depends what "comprehensive proof" means, really, and what your definition of "god" is, since the word itself doesn't have any definite meaning. | |
Hence why I said "believe" and not "worship".
Indeed, but my statement presupposed the idea that a comprehensive proof of god is possible (something I myself find rather implausible). | |
touche. I think I have to write more than just that, so I'll raise the issue of epistemological distance. Some Christians argue that if God revealed Itself we would be robbed of free-will, because God would sort of overwhelm us in wonderfulness. In this case, can it still be called belief, given the lack of free will. | |
The interesting thing about this argument is that it is directly refuted in the old testament, and in fact many church doctrines believe that god personally reveals himself to each and every one of us (which also would seem to rob us of free will if the argument was valid). | |
It's a cartoon comedy show with a talking dog, Seth MacFarlane doesn't give a crap about continuity. | |
Is Admiral Adama stupid for being an atheist in Battlestar Galactica? In BSG it's fairly obvious that there is some sort of powerful and hidden being not-so-subtly influencing events. Yeah, if BSG was true to history it'd be fairly convincing evidence of some kind of 'god'. But so what? Is Leah stupid for doubting Deckard Cain in Diablo III? Deckard's the one telling her to look at the evidence. What is the upshot of the realization that if atheists were obviously wrong, as can often be the case in a fictional universe, then atheism would be kind of stupid? | |
You'd have to be pretty stupid to form a religion around the god portrayed in Family Guy, who's also nothing like Christianity portrays him. So even though god exist, he's right that religion is nothing but a stupid scam. ...which is exactly how it'd be in real life too. Even if their "god" was proven to exist, Christians would still be vile filth for their homophobia and misogyny. | |
'vile filth' is a bit extreme don't you think. Especially since homophobic and misogynist does not describe the vast majority of christians I know. | |
you forgot rule 1 of cartoons. nothing changes from episode to episode of the characters personality regardless of what happens in an eisode | |
I'm going to trust St. Paul and the Bible over some self-labeled Christians you happen to know on what the official and authoritative stance of Christianity is. I don't know whatever mental monkey acrobatics they've engaged in to get around that exceedingly clear piece of dogma, but it's clear that it has no relation to any reasonable understanding of the wording of the above passage, to the probable intent that can be gauged from its historical context of being written in the ancient Middle East (and the prevailing view on women at that time), and a century long tradition of understanding it as condemnatory towards homosexuality. And hence clear that it has no literary or theological bearing whatsoever. They might call their faith "Christian" despite this obvious clash with the religion's authoritative dogma, but they should then expect to be judged on what's on the books, what officially constitutes "Christianity"; And such is certainly vile filth. | |
There are many, many different sects of Christianity. Many of those allow for non-literal interpretation of the Bible. The Methodist Church is fine with homosexuals. The Archbishop of Canterbury is fine with homosexuals. Sure, accepting that would rob you of your straw man, but they exist. The Nicene creed doesn't mention homosexuality anywhere. It doesn't even mention the Bible. It mentions the Father,Son and Holy Spirit. You have decided that you need to be a literalist to be a christian. And why the flip should anyone conform to your definition of their religion. I will go with the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Nicene Creed over you to know what the official stance of Christianity is. | |
It's a cartoon, one where irreverent humor is often used (humor that mocks authority figures like politicians, officials, leaders, religious figures, etc.). It probably doesn't demand a whole lot of analysis | |
Family Guy isn't the best show to talk about this. Continuity aside, Brain isn't supposed to be an ideal being in a world of idiots, but something of a self rightious jerk in his own right. I have seen the same concept elsewhere. DC comics has some aethists like Mr Teriffic running aroung despite other characters actually having been to heaven, hell and purgatory and other characters are agents of god (the Spectre), or angels themselves (zauriel). And that doesn't even get into the greek pantheon that exists as well as other deities. Of course, the same books also asked that in a world of Supermen, shape Shifters and other wonderful beings, what could God do to prove he was god. That can be the thing. Yes, I'm sure that some people could stand at parted seas and try to find the "rational" explaination for it, but most of us would at least entertain more fantastic options. Without something direct though, most people it's just faith in things that if it were anything but religion would get us told to quit living in a fantasy world. Beleif in angels and heaven: fine. Beleif in aliens, time travel, alternate universes: fantasy. Under differing circumstances I'm sure aethisits would be the ones needing the reality check, but nothing in reality has convinces me of such. | |
Yet theologically there is only room for one truth, unless of course god is severely schizophrenic.
And so forth. Don't really seem to me that they respect the basic requirement for not being considered vile and worthless filth, namely to not condemn whatever happens in private between enthusiastically consenting adults.
There's obviously a limit to just how fine he is with them being granted equal rights. Also, his words are ranked on par with an apostle or the scripture?
And everything authoritatively and canonically known on those is found in the bible.
As is your business entirely. Should you publicly call yourself a Christian though, don't ever expect not to be judged on the bible, it being the core scripture of that religion and all. One cannot seek to become part of something bigger than oneself without becoming accountable for more than oneself; It speaks for you until you speak for yourself in defiance of it. | |
Firstly, I wouldn't call myself a Christian, because I'm not one.
Well, they're people. That is the basic requirement. Be angry with people who have horrible views, challenge them wherever you can, but NEVER forget that they are people and are NOT worthless. (sorry if that appears shouty, I don't know the code to bold or italic text or I'd have used that instead of caps) My position, would be to see if someone actually has views I consider unacceptable before I declare them sub-human, rather than judge them based on what I think they should believe. I mean, in truth you're ire must be directed at very few people, considering how many 'Christians' break tenets from the Old Testament all the time. Anyone of them who ever took out a loan, for starters. If you actually ask most Christians, they'll tell you that the only important bits are 'love God and love your neighbour'. I say this, because I can't imagine anyone carrying that much ill feeling towards people they've actually met. You say;
But it doesn't really sound like you've ever given people a chance to speak their defiance for themselves. | |
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Me and some friends where talking today. Some how it got to Brian Griffin and his beliefs. Then it hit us he is to Atheist what a blind sheep of follower is to Christians.
Case in point
1 God has shown himself to these people. He was not talking to them but trying to pick up a girl.
2 They know the grim reaper the angel of death on a first name basis by this point.
3 Peter was friends with Jesus he even lived with the Griffins
Yet Brain still talk about how stupid it is to believe in God. At what point does it stop being something done because of scientific proof and enter being a religion it's self.
I know there a lot of atheist here and quite a few smart people so I want others views. Thanks for the time.