-snip- I'm a bit of a biblical scholar, myself, so comparing notes is always nice. I was hoping you had ran across something that I had missed.
. How much do you hold up the Talmod? It gives Hell a much bigger role. It all depends on the way you look at Judaism. In my eyes there is no mention of it in the Bible itself. You can find it starring in a Rabbi's speeches nowadays. (By the way, the perception of punishment turns from collective to a person taking responsibility for his actions, yet there are still sins that if you commit will DOOM your future generations (Up to some point), like being born a Bastard.)
I haven't, in truth, gone through the Talmod as much as I'd like to have. There was some mention within the Nag Hammadi texts about the afterlife, but it was more of an aside from Jesus basically criticizing the apostles for even thinking of the afterlife yet. Those texts are quite a pain to go through though, what with all the double-talk, symbolic storytelling, and references to biblical passages that don't exist.
I'd love to just swap some notes on it, though. I'd love to have someone who has more information on Judaism than I do.
*Points to Cakes and Nibbles*
I would point to ravensheart but he got his ass banned for calling someone a girl or something
Imma say no discussion value, since you asked what is the truth, and if we can state the truth, then a simple link to Wikipedia would suffice, and if we can not state the truth (which we can't), then a snarky flamewar would ensue, since everyone would have their own version of the "truth".
Personally I think the only way to get to heaven is to simply not be Mormon.
-snip- God created you with the freedom to decide for yourself. I'm sorry if you do not like that answer but it is the correct answer.
. This is false. God goes against himself in many occasions and takes away the will of man on his whims.
That is incorrect. I really don't know what else to say in response to this. God does not, and would not use His power to force a person to choose to do something they would not otherwise choose.
Id never do that either! In fact i cant really force people to do anything... except you know without using the threat of violence or harm...
"Define Hell: A place regarded in various religions as a spiritual realm of evil and suffering."
Oh. Nevermind. God IS threatening me to love him or else. Lovely.
Please don't use that word. If you are referring to the Jewish God, that's not the correct name and its considered disrespectful to use his name, even if you got it right. Please use the preferred conversational name, Hashem.
If you are referring to the Christian god, that's not what they call him (with the exception of one christian sect). Please just stick to "christian god" if you want to be specific about what god you are referring to.
Also this is known to be a BAD translitteration of a translitteration of a deliberate spelling error and using it to sound informed doesn't actually have that end effect.
Thanks for your consideration
...It's disrespectful to use the name of a deity. Well colour me stunned. That wont stop me using it. Freedom of speech and what not and it does make it clear which deity out of the many thousands that humanity has worshipped that I am on about.
Using what is factually a WRONG name is clearly disrespectful. Do you like it when people insist on calling you by the wrong name even knowing its wrong? Free speech doesn't change the fact that I'm supposed to treat you with consideration. I pointed out what you said was considered rude, and I gave you a correction that would allow you to be specific without being rude. I guess we learned something about you.
The Jewish deity is the Christian one, and the Islamic one.
I agree the Islamic and Jewish deity is the same. I do not believe modern Christianity follows the same god, even if they think they do. I believe they have falling into a pagan religion. Besides, with one exception they don't use the name you used so we are back to it being an inappropriate reference.
I did mispell it though. It's Yahweh or that's as close as we have it. If you feel it is incorrect, please show your work. Otherwise I will continue to use Yahweh to refer to the deity of the Abrahamic faiths.
Fine, the name mistranslated that way can be abbreviated in English as YHVH, for the hebrew letters yud - hey - vav - hey. Not that the "V" (Vav) can sound like "V" "oo" or "o", it doesn't however sound like "W". That's a bad transliteration between Latin and English.
The remainder of the "vowel" sounds have been lost (they aren't written in traditional Hebrew) but the one thing we know for a fact is that the vowel sounds that were translated to create yahew from YHVH are based on the work in transliteration of a single monk in the middle ages who, working from a hebrew document, saw two "helper" characters (the way vowel sounds are now written when they are written) and he correctly transliterated those helpers.
The problem is that it was well documented that the vowel sounds for the name of god starting with A, the one we use instead of the personal name starting Y in prayer, were substituted into the Y name to remind people to never pronounce it but to use the alternate word. In other words, he read the deliberately wrong vowel sounds and thought they were right. Plus, the particular vowel combination he assumed incorrectly was right substantially changes the way you would pronounce that end from its default H to an "eh".
So while we don't know exactly how to pronounce the name anymore, we do know that particular transliteration is borked.
Oh look moving the goal posts. That ever classic religious way of doing things. It went from being disrespectful to use his name, to disrespectful to use it wrong, to it being rude to use it wrong. I point out we are talking about something with zero factual evidence. How can it be rude or disrespectful? Is it rude if I misspell Harry Potter? Gandalf? James Kirk? No, it's really not. I respect ANYONES right to believe in whatever they wish, as long as by action or inaction those beliefs do not hurt anyone. I do NOT respect what they believe in however. A key difference I am sure you agree. As an example, and a famous one at this point O->--< that there is a stick figure of Mohammad.
Regarding Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It is the same deity, as it all comes from the Old Testament and then just differs by what follows. Now there is no question that Christianity stole a huge amount of festivals and practices and merged them into Christianity to get more people into the fold (Christmas, Easter, so on and so forth). However that doesn't change the issue that it is the same deity over all. Some would say it's not, but that's like someone saying that Muslims worship the wrong god when they are Jewish or Christian. Historically speaking, and based on the texts, it's the same deity.
Thank you for the transliteration information though, it always helps when you show your work when saying something is wrong, and it was indeed something I was not aware of.
Frokane: From what my christian friends and aquantinces have told me is that if you dont accept jesus christ as your saviour before you die you wont go to heaven, so that which would mean you go to hell.
but then there are those who say as long as you are generally a good person you will go to heaven.
what is the truth?
If you don't believe in Jesus why should it matter? I mean you shouldn't believe in heaven and hell either.
So no you wont go to hell... nor will you go to heaven... since they don't exist unless you believe in Jesus. (And even then it's not a proven fact :P)
...It's disrespectful to use the name of a deity. Well colour me stunned. That wont stop me using it. Freedom of speech and what not and it does make it clear which deity out of the many thousands that humanity has worshipped that I am on about.
Using what is factually a WRONG name is clearly disrespectful. Do you like it when people insist on calling you by the wrong name even knowing its wrong? Free speech doesn't change the fact that I'm supposed to treat you with consideration. I pointed out what you said was considered rude, and I gave you a correction that would allow you to be specific without being rude. I guess we learned something about you.
The Jewish deity is the Christian one, and the Islamic one.
I agree the Islamic and Jewish deity is the same. I do not believe modern Christianity follows the same god, even if they think they do. I believe they have falling into a pagan religion. Besides, with one exception they don't use the name you used so we are back to it being an inappropriate reference.
I did mispell it though. It's Yahweh or that's as close as we have it. If you feel it is incorrect, please show your work. Otherwise I will continue to use Yahweh to refer to the deity of the Abrahamic faiths.
Fine, the name mistranslated that way can be abbreviated in English as YHVH, for the hebrew letters yud - hey - vav - hey. Note that the "V" (Vav) can sound like "V" "oo" or "o", it doesn't however sound like "W". That's a bad transliteration between Latin and English.
The remainder of the "vowel" sounds have been lost (they aren't written in traditional Hebrew) but the one thing we know for a fact is that the vowel sounds that were translated to create yahew from YHVH are based on the work in transliteration of a single monk in the middle ages who, working from a hebrew document, saw two "helper" characters (the way vowel sounds are now written when they are written) and he correctly transliterated those helpers.
The problem is that it was well documented that the vowel sounds for the name of god starting with A, the one we use instead of the personal name starting Y in prayer, were substituted into the Y name to remind people to never pronounce it but to use the alternate word. In other words, he read the deliberately wrong vowel sounds and thought they were right. Plus, the particular vowel combination he assumed incorrectly was right substantially changes the way you would pronounce that end from its default H to an "eh".
So while we don't know exactly how to pronounce the name anymore, we do know that particular transliteration is borked.
Oh look moving the goal posts. That ever classic religious way of doing things. It went from being disrespectful to use his name, to disrespectful to use it wrong, to it being rude to use it wrong
I don't move goal posts. Actually if you look back to my first post, you will find I said both things. The focus of your last post was however on how you were right on the name, so I focused on the fact you were wrong in my reply. Obviously if you have the name wrong, its even more clear its rude.
As I said originally, it is considered rude to use the personal name of god even if you got it right. Part of that tradition ties back to the fact we don't have the name exactly right now, part ties to the loss of the Temple. Observing that custom for you is about being respectful to other PEOPLE, which you don't seem to care about.
,. I point out we are talking about something with zero factual evidence. How can it be rude or disrespectful? Is it rude if I misspell Harry Potter? Gandalf? James Kirk? No, it's really not. I respect ANYONES right to believe in whatever they wish, as long as by action or inaction those beliefs do not hurt anyone. I do NOT respect what they believe in however. A key difference I am sure you agree. As an example, and a famous one at this point that there is a stick figure of Mohammad.
Once again, I asked you to be polite to other people, and doing that doesn't hurt you. Clearly we have learned something about you as a human being.
Regarding Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It is the same deity, as it all comes from the Old Testament and then just differs by what follows. Now there is no question that Christianity stole a huge amount of festivals and practices and merged them into Christianity to get more people into the fold (Christmas, Easter, so on and so forth). However that doesn't change the issue that it is the same deity over all. Some would say it's not, but that's like someone saying that Muslims worship the wrong god when they are Jewish or Christian. Historically speaking, and based on the texts, it's the same deity.
No Jew with a brain would ever suggest a muslim is not worshiping the same god, and as I already said the christians think they worship the same god. I have little doubt that they started out that way. However, based on their "NT" and other doctrines, they worship a god that is incompatible with both the Jewish and Muslim understanding of god. They have elevated a mortal to the status of god/demi-god and worship him. Because these god concepts are so different, and because christians don't use YHVH as a name, it just fogs things up to use that name, or a form of it, when to trying to describe the christian god concept.
Thank you for the transliteration information though, it always helps when you show your work when saying something is wrong, and it was indeed something I was not aware of.
TheIronRuler: I just remembered that a moment before I posted this. They can't marry another Jew legally, they can only marry another Bastard of a Gentile. Of course no Rabbi would suggest a Bastard to marry a Gentile.
Mamzerim are still Jews...
They can still be the greatest scholars and know the Torah and scriptures inside out, but they are still a Bastard. Which is a punishment that carries on for generations.
I don't see how it's much of a punishment, they are literally exactly the same as any other Jew except for having a particular marriage restriction. Kohanim also have different (and probably stricter) marriage restrictions.
TheIronRuler: I just remembered that a moment before I posted this. They can't marry another Jew legally, they can only marry another Bastard of a Gentile. Of course no Rabbi would suggest a Bastard to marry a Gentile.
Mamzerim are still Jews...
They can still be the greatest scholars and know the Torah and scriptures inside out, but they are still a Bastard. Which is a punishment that carries on for generations.
I don't see how it's much of a punishment, they are literally exactly the same as any other Jew except for having a particular marriage restriction. Kohanim also have different (and probably stricter) marriage restrictions.
. Look at the court cases not allowing DNA tests to determine identity of a father if it may turn a person into a bastard (Unless it's a matter of life or death, like a transplant of organs). It is a punishment for being a Bastard and descendant of a Bastard (after x generations it wears off, I think 10. My memory isn't very accurate at the moment).
depends on your personal beliefs. considering that people who don,t believe in Jesus are non-Christians also means that they don,t believe in the christian afterlife meaning that they don,t believe in hell. first of do you consider yourself a Christian? second read your holly book and see what that has to say on the issue. or take the third option and believe want you want to believe not bothering with ground rules. PS I personally believe there is no heaven nor hell and consider myself a atheist.
According to the Bible God doesnt so much send you to hell as you go there if you die outside of a state of grace (ie without sin or without salvation). The vast majority of people are not going to get into heaven and that is really sad.
So, basically exactly the same thing, God in the Christian faith sets the rules for getting into heaven correct? Thats exactly the same thing as being sent there by God himself, and the reason being you didn't follow his rules and bow to him. Sounds exactly like a tyrannical dictator to me. And as an American don't you claim to oppose such people?
If God let sinners into heaven it wouldnt be a place without sin anymore now would it? It would be just like everywhere else.
You have a very roundabout way of looking at things, like you are trying to blame God for expecting something from you.
Expecting something from someone is fine, as long as those expectations are reasonable. They are not, in this case. There are so many religions to choose from and so much evidence that most if not all of them are false, and most are contradictory. How is one to choose correctly, and know that they made the right choice? According to you a person can make the wrong choice with the best of intentions and lead a compassionate, even generous life, and still be denied entry into heaven, if not outright damned to hell for it.
You do your God a disservice by saying this is the way he's set things up, because he cannot appear to be anything other than vindictive and maliciously egotistical when you look at it closely.
Frokane: From what my christian friends and aquantinces have told me is that if you dont accept jesus christ as your saviour before you die you wont go to heaven, so that which would mean you go to hell.
but then there are those who say as long as you are generally a good person you will go to heaven.
what is the truth?
Well yeah basically.
Everyone has sinned,the consequence of sin is seperation from God eternally.
God didn't want us seperated from him so he sent his son to live as a human who didn't sin and die on the cross to pay our debt.
Now all that is required to have your sins forgiven and go to heaven is to say
"Jesus Christ is the lord, I believe you died for me and rose to new life and I trust you will raise me to new life."
thats 26 words that Billions of people will never say. They don't really want God or heaven that much but if you do, sincerely pray that prayer.
Mr.logic: Now all that is required to have your sins forgiven and go to heaven is to say
"Jesus Christ is the lord, I believe you died for me and rose to new life and I trust you will raise me to new life."
thats 26 words that Billions of people will never say. They don't really want God or heaven that much but if you do, sincerely pray that prayer.
Now all that is required to have your sins forgiven and go to heaven is to say
"La illaha illa Allah, Muhammad rasoolu Allah."
thats 7 words that Billions of people will never say. They don't really want God or heaven that much but if you do, sincerely pray that prayer.
do you have the phoenetic versions of those words, my arabic isnt that good (non existent really) and would like to properly say it. and no im not trolling this out of sincere curiosity.
Mr.logic: Now all that is required to have your sins forgiven and go to heaven is to say
"Jesus Christ is the lord, I believe you died for me and rose to new life and I trust you will raise me to new life."
thats 26 words that Billions of people will never say. They don't really want God or heaven that much but if you do, sincerely pray that prayer.
Now all that is required to have your sins forgiven and go to heaven is to say
"La illaha illa Allah, Muhammad rasoolu Allah."
thats 7 words that Billions of people will never say. They don't really want God or heaven that much but if you do, sincerely pray that prayer.
do you have the phoenetic versions of those words, my arabic isnt that good (non existent really) and would like to properly say it. and no im not trolling this out of sincere curiosity.
It's pretty straightforward, it sounds something like "La illa-ha ill-uhlah Muhammad rasoolu-lah", if that makes any sense. Just search "Shahada" on YouTube, there are probably tonnes of videos explaining it.
The truth is, hell is a made up place conceived by men now long dead.
Hell is used to scare people into living their lives a certain way. Heaven is the exact same thing except instead of threatening you it is more of a bribe.
Mr.logic: Now all that is required to have your sins forgiven and go to heaven is to say
"Jesus Christ is the lord, I believe you died for me and rose to new life and I trust you will raise me to new life."
thats 26 words that Billions of people will never say. They don't really want God or heaven that much but if you do, sincerely pray that prayer.
Now all that is required to have your sins forgiven and go to heaven is to say
"La illaha illa Allah, Muhammad rasoolu Allah."
thats 7 words that Billions of people will never say. They don't really want God or heaven that much but if you do, sincerely pray that prayer.
I see why you did that. Let me ask do you actually believe that or are you just trying to mess with me? if you are an athiest please don't do that. If you are a Muslim let me ask what is required to go to heaven in the Quran? Also why do you believe this?
God didn't want us seperated from him so he sent his son
STOP.
Explain to me why it was necessary for an omnipotent God to do this. Why was Jesus necessary to removing the 'separation'?
. "Rational arguments don't usually work on religious people. Otherwise there would be no religious people." -house. Don't get yourself too worked up. We know the truth.
Mr.logic: Now all that is required to have your sins forgiven and go to heaven is to say
"Jesus Christ is the lord, I believe you died for me and rose to new life and I trust you will raise me to new life."
thats 26 words that Billions of people will never say. They don't really want God or heaven that much but if you do, sincerely pray that prayer.
Now all that is required to have your sins forgiven and go to heaven is to say
"La illaha illa Allah, Muhammad rasoolu Allah."
thats 7 words that Billions of people will never say. They don't really want God or heaven that much but if you do, sincerely pray that prayer.
I see why you did that. Let me ask do you actually believe that or are you just trying to mess with me? if you are an athiest please don't do that. If you are a Muslim let me ask what is required to go to heaven in the Quran? Also why do you believe this?
I believe he's Jewish.
And I chuckled when I saw his post because, without invoking his own religion, he demonstrated how empty your claim was.
Explain to me why it was necessary for an omnipotent God to do this. Why was Jesus necessary to removing the 'separation'?
Because he is a God of justice, and somebody had to pay for our crimes.
Someone else paying for our crimes is not justice
What I never got is that god sacrificed himself to himself, but of course he didn't die, which means nothing was sacrificed. It was just for show, so that he could convince himself to forgive people for being human.
That's pretty much the core of what made me question the religion I was born to. Well that and the associated, "babies are born sinful".
To this day I remain convinced that someone like Jesus existed (although he could be a composit), and was a teacher from the Israelite end-of-the-world-is-here sect that the Dead Sea scrolls are from (I forget the name). He seemed to mostly teach traditional Jewish things, and his diversions mostly (at least the ones that fit and weren't clearly added by others) seem to match up with that sect. It even explains his "missing years in the desert" as it could be the time he went out to be educated by them. I don't think he ever claimed to be god in human form, that claim was inserted well after his death to bring in the Hurcules mythos. There would have been no reason to establish his paternal line to David (as they tried twice, with different answers) if they weren't selling him at the time as a prophet, a challenger to the Israeli throne (which would explain the execution), or the meshiach (who was a HUMAN who was to be the last king of Israel, which feeds back to the possibilty above).
It's even possible that, if he existed, the Muslims have it right and he was meant to be a prophet. If that is the case, I also think the Muslims got it right when they said his words had been twisted and thus the Christians were lost.
No Jew with a brain would ever suggest a muslim is not worshiping the same god,
...Really? Since when does Hashem say that we can't draw the prophet Mohammed? Since when does Hashem say that we must take a pilgrimage to Mecca? Adonai isn't Allah.
Kendarik: and as I already said the christians think they worship the same god. I have little doubt that they started out that way. However, based on their "NT" and other doctrines, they worship a god that is incompatible with both the Jewish and Muslim understanding of god. They have elevated a mortal to the status of god/demi-god and worship him.
I think that some Muslims have done the same thing with muhammad. In fact if I didn't know anything about muhammad, I would be forgiven for mistaking muhammad for being the diety that Muslims worship, given by how they treat him and his image.
the truth is that we're all made of stardust and the guy in rome wants ll your money and youu will make more money to ngive him more money 'cause jesus(who the romans killeded) was way cool. so u give him all our money. no, the fat guy wh's his accountant or something. and u shall also vote for ron paul, the 2nd coming of the bab , who will WAKE UP USA USA!!!, and make the southern bapist church SOVIET STRONG again.
if u disagree, bill gates the devil will eat your future baby. but that's okay 'cause he ike will say BLESS YOUR HEART and stuff. okays bye bye!!!! *kiss kiss*
...It's disrespectful to use the name of a deity. Well colour me stunned. That wont stop me using it. Freedom of speech and what not and it does make it clear which deity out of the many thousands that humanity has worshipped that I am on about.
The Jewish deity is the Christian one, and the Islamic one. I did mispell it though. It's Yahweh or that's as close as we have it. If you feel it is incorrect, please show your work. Otherwise I will continue to use Yahweh to refer to the deity of the Abrahamic faiths.
And you'll continue to be wrong. Hashem is not Allah, nor the Christian God. Your ignorant to suggest otherwise.
No Jew with a brain would ever suggest a muslim is not worshiping the same god,
...Really? Since when does Hashem say that we can't draw the prophet Mohammed? Since when does Hashem say that we must take a pilgrimage to Mecca? Hashem isn't Allah.
Hashem told the Israelites what they must do, and he told the Muslims what they must do. Anyone who understands the first thing about the Jewish religion should know that most of the law given to us doesn't apply to anyone but Israelites/Jews, and that we were specifically told in Torah that great prophets were sent to other nations - but not to carry Torah which was just for us. So obviously, they would give different messages.
At one point Maimonides commented that converting to Christianity would be a near unforgivable sin, not so for conversion to Islam. While he may have had self serving reasons to be more forgiving of conversion to Islam, no credible source suggests that Alah is not Hashem.
Kendarik: and as I already said the christians think they worship the same god. I have little doubt that they started out that way. However, based on their "NT" and other doctrines, they worship a god that is incompatible with both the Jewish and Muslim understanding of god. They have elevated a mortal to the status of god/demi-god and worship him.
I think that some Muslims have done the same thing with muhammad. In fact if I didn't know anything about muhammad, I would be forgiven for mistaking muhammad for being the diety that Muslims worship, given by how they treat him and his image.
By their religion, they are to treat him as the greatest prophet. I've never heard of anyone worshiping him, but I suppose there may be ignorant people out there, that however would just be people getting it wrong.
The issue of his image actually has nothing to do with godhood, except to prove they DON'T think he is a god. ALL graven images of humans are forbidden. This is actually something they share with Israelite/Jewish law. To this day, in many Jewish Shules you will see no human images as decoration, or if they use them at all they have no face.
Given his status, to make an image of him would be to create the possiblity of him being mistaken for a god/idol figure to bow down to, so its even more important that no image be made of him. You basically got it backward. This is a similar consideration as to why Moses is actually downplayed when we tell the story of what he did during Passover.
On the other hand, Christianity outright states that a mortal was also god.
Mr.logic: Now all that is required to have your sins forgiven and go to heaven is to say
"Jesus Christ is the lord, I believe you died for me and rose to new life and I trust you will raise me to new life."
thats 26 words that Billions of people will never say. They don't really want God or heaven that much but if you do, sincerely pray that prayer.
Now all that is required to have your sins forgiven and go to heaven is to say
"La illaha illa Allah, Muhammad rasoolu Allah."
thats 7 words that Billions of people will never say. They don't really want God or heaven that much but if you do, sincerely pray that prayer.
I see why you did that. Let me ask do you actually believe that or are you just trying to mess with me? if you are an athiest please don't do that. If you are a Muslim let me ask what is required to go to heaven in the Quran? Also why do you believe this?
Hoo boy. You just completely missed the point, that being that your religious claims made are exactly the same as what you could say for Islam or any number of other religions. The fact that you wouldn't be interested in saying "La illaha illa Allah, Muhammad rasoolu Allah" is explanation enough as to why we're not getting on our knees and begging a supernatural zombie raptor for forgiveness. In logic, this is called "drawing an analogy".
...It's disrespectful to use the name of a deity. Well colour me stunned. That wont stop me using it. Freedom of speech and what not and it does make it clear which deity out of the many thousands that humanity has worshipped that I am on about.
The Jewish deity is the Christian one, and the Islamic one. I did mispell it though. It's Yahweh or that's as close as we have it. If you feel it is incorrect, please show your work. Otherwise I will continue to use Yahweh to refer to the deity of the Abrahamic faiths.
And you'll continue to be wrong. Hashem is not Allah, nor the Christian God. Your ignorant to suggest otherwise.
. Don't the Muslims claim all of the Jewish prophets (And also others that were not really prophets like David) ,Jesus and Muhammed as the prophets of god? Doesn't that mean that their god, in their eyes, is the same god of the Hebrews and of the Christians?
...It's disrespectful to use the name of a deity. Well colour me stunned. That wont stop me using it. Freedom of speech and what not and it does make it clear which deity out of the many thousands that humanity has worshipped that I am on about.
The Jewish deity is the Christian one, and the Islamic one. I did mispell it though. It's Yahweh or that's as close as we have it. If you feel it is incorrect, please show your work. Otherwise I will continue to use Yahweh to refer to the deity of the Abrahamic faiths.
And you'll continue to be wrong. Hashem is not Allah, nor the Christian God. Your ignorant to suggest otherwise.
. Don't the Muslims claim all of the Jewish prophets (And also others that were not really prophets like David) ,Jesus and Muhammed as the prophets of god? Doesn't that mean that their god, in their eyes, is the same god of the Hebrews and of the Christians?
As I point out before, Hashem never says that I can't draw a picture of Muhammad, nor does he say I can't drink or that I must go to Mecca. So they can claim whatever they want, but it doesn't make it so. In fact, their worship of a space rock(the black stone in mecca) borders on worshiping an idol, something that Judaism is clearly against.
EDIT: I think I should elaborate, one example of the difference in the idea of the divine between the two is that Jews say that Hashem rested on the seventh day, while Muslims say that Allah did not because a divine being doesn't need to rest. That in itself is a clear example of how Jews and Muslims have different views of the divine.
Explain to me why it was necessary for an omnipotent God to do this. Why was Jesus necessary to removing the 'separation'?
Because he is a God of justice, and somebody had to pay for our crimes.
Someone else paying for our crimes is not justice
It's the same as someone paying your bail. Either the offender goes to jail or someone with the ability to pay for his crime pays for it. In this case it's a crime where we never have the bail money. He does, and asks if we want out.
Mr.logic: Because he is a God of justice, and somebody had to pay for our crimes.
Someone else paying for our crimes is not justice
It's the same as someone paying your bail. Either the offender goes to jail or someone with the ability to pay for his crime pays for it. In this case it's a crime where we never have the bail money. He does, and asks if we want out.
You know what, I was going to write a rebuttal but this video explains it a lot better than I can
Volf: And you'll continue to be wrong. Hashem is not Allah, nor the Christian God. Your ignorant to suggest otherwise.
. Don't the Muslims claim all of the Jewish prophets (And also others that were not really prophets like David) ,Jesus and Muhammed as the prophets of god? Doesn't that mean that their god, in their eyes, is the same god of the Hebrews and of the Christians?
As I point out before, Hashem never says that I can't draw a picture of Muhammad, nor does he say I can't drink or that I must go to Mecca. So they can claim whatever they want, but it doesn't make it so. In fact, their worship of a space rock(the black stone in mecca) borders on worshiping an idol, something that Judaism is clearly against.
EDIT: I think I should elaborate, one example of the difference in the idea of the divine between the two is that Jews say that Hashem rested on the seventh day, while Muslims say that Allah did not because a divine being doesn't need to rest. That in itself is a clear example of how Jews and Muslims have different views of the divine.
\ . I know that from a Jewish perspective it's bullshit, but doesn't it make some sense from a Muslim perspective?
Volf: As I point out before, Hashem never says that I can't draw a picture of Muhammad, nor does he say I can't drink or that I must go to Mecca. So they can claim whatever they want, but it doesn't make it so. In fact, their worship of a space rock(the black stone in mecca) borders on worshiping an idol, something that Judaism is clearly against.
The reverence they show the Kaaba is really no different from the way we treat certain holy places, the wailing wall for example.
*Points to Cakes and Nibbles*
I would point to ravensheart but he got his ass banned for calling someone a girl or something