Do you agree with me?
Yes
11.8% (6)
11.8% (6)
No
31.4% (16)
31.4% (16)
A little
9.8% (5)
9.8% (5)
Your on crack
47.1% (24)
47.1% (24)
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Poll: Why does it matter what religion you are?

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You wanna know what gets on my nerves?! When people don't like a girl/guy because they are a diffrent religion or they have no religion or belief. But religions now are like the main reasons of wars. For example WW1, WW2, and the war in the middle east, ect. So what if one person is Christian and another is a Scientoligist, that is still not right! If you don't agree with me I have no problem with that, but does it really make a diffrence what religion you are. This is another thing that gets on my nerves is that when somebody tries to turn someone into a diffrent religion. Like if they want to see the religion you are and they'll connsider it I mean that's fine but when you force someone to chenge their religion, I mean that's not right. Do you agree with me?

How in the holy mother of fuck was religion like-the-main-reason-of-war for WWI and II?

Throughout history there are very few wars that only occurred because of religion and would not have occurred if religion did not exist. More often than not religion is used as a convenient excuse by political leaders throughout history. Take away religion and they will just find another excuse.

Cakes:
How in the holy mother of fuck was religion like-the-main-reason-of-war for WWI and II?

Snap.
Neither world war was caused by religion - they had a great many contributing factors, of which religion was an insignificant one at most.

Additionally, there's no one 'war in the middle east'. It's a whole series of conflicts, skirmishes, disagreements and, in spite of what you see on the news, mostly peace.
Again, it's not as simple as saying it's religion based - though religion is definitely a major contributing factor for tension in this case.

Seekster:
Throughout history there are very few wars that only occurred because of religion and would not have occurred if religion did not exist. More often than not religion is used as a convenient excuse by political leaders throughout history. Take away religion and they will just find another excuse.

This a thousand times. Many of the greatest wars had nothing to do with religion, many did. I simply take that as showing that religion exists, not that religion is the cause of war, or really even a cause of war. Disagreement, no matter what kind, is the cause of war, and if we aren't disagreeing over one thing we'll just find something else to disagree about (the truth is more complex but I am lazy).

Cakes:
How in the holy mother of fuck was religion like-the-main-reason-of-war for WWI and II?

You took the words right out of my mouth.

WW2 was caused by religion? Well that's news to me!

Just about every war in history has had its roots in greed, pride, and unthinking hatred. Religion has had very little to do with it beyond being used as a propaganda tool to fire up the masses.

Link55:
YLike if they want to see the religion you are and they'll connsider it I mean that's fine but when you force someone to chenge their religion, I mean that's not right.

Except that some people honestly believe that anyone who doesn't share their religion will suffer eternally, and that converting them is therefor a higher priority than anything else. Sure, pushing religion on people is annoying, but if the alternative means allowing someone you care about to go to hell, then being an annoyance seems entirely forgivable.

Captcha: fire + brim stone

Exactly.

Hazy992:
WW2 was caused by religion? Well that's news to me!

I seriously hope the OP isnt implying that jews started WWII. considering that nazism was a political ideology and not a religious one i cant see what he is getting at unless he is trying to blame the jews. which is obviously fucked.

keiskay:

Hazy992:
WW2 was caused by religion? Well that's news to me!

I seriously hope the OP isnt implying that jews started WWII. considering that nazism was a political ideology and not a religious one i cant see what he is getting at unless he is trying to blame the jews. which is obviously fucked.

The Jews caused WWII by BEING THERE, man. And WWI. And Vietnam, and Korea, and both Japanese-Sino wars, and the Civil War, and the Revolutionary War, and War of the Roses, and...

Link55:
You wanna know what gets on my nerves?! When people don't like a girl/guy because they are a diffrent religion or they have no religion or belief.

Personally I can't fathom how some people choose their mates by what sort of music they listen to or what style of clothes they wear.

But there's no point in getting wigged out about it. People like what they like. There's no point in getting upset that someone doesn't like you for reasons you don't think are important.

But religions now are like the main reasons of wars.

Sorry, this is 100% wrong. Religions are ideas. They don't exist. They don't cause anything.

He might be referring to the antisemitism that had been cultivated in Europe, (especially) since the middle ages, and was often justified with "they killed our lord and saviour"? But while that's a popular propaganda piece, I wouldn't call that the "main reason" for WW2 by a long shot! This was about power and racial supremacy. The coopting of religion was more of a tool.

Anyway, why does religion matter? Well. It matters because of how people treat each other because of the various divides. That may seem tautological given the question, but it is the actions of people that make religion more than a purely personal thing. It matters even more because of how religious motivations creep into politics and affect every members of that society's lives, regardless of whether they belong to that religion or not or, if they do, whether they agree with the interpretation or not. So it's not something to be ignored, at least not until proper secularisation is accomplished and protected.

Katatori-kun:
Sorry, this is 100% wrong. Religions are ideas. They don't exist. They don't cause anything.

"The jury's beliefs that the accused committed murder and that the crime was so heinous that it ought to be punished by death did not cause anything, because they were just ideas, and ideas don't exist."

Your position seems metaphysically inept.

Paragraphs, buddy. Learn2.

Link55:
You wanna know what gets on my nerves?! When people don't like a girl/guy because they are a diffrent religion or they have no religion or belief.

If you don't agree with me I have no problem with that, but does it really make a diffrence what religion you are.

This is another thing that gets on my nerves is that when somebody tries to turn someone into a diffrent religion.

According to the bible, non-christians are the anti-christ and of the devil. From what I've heard, there are similar lines in the Qur'an. Even if you don't believe that non-believers are evil, sinful people (as most fundamentalists do), most christian sects believe that non-believers will burn in hell for all eternity. Is it any wonder they try to convert as many people as possible to save them from that fate? Never mind that it's written in their religious text that they should.

I agree with you, such differences are stupid. However, if you already believe in the religion, they not only make perfect sense, but are virtually necessary.

Katatori-kun:
Sorry, this is 100% wrong. Religions are ideas. They don't exist. They don't cause anything.

Hnnnnng..... no. While correct that religions are ideas, stating that they, as in the ideas spawned from religions, don't cause anything is outright false. No long-term action is ever taken without the initial spark from an idea.

Because religions are ideologies on how people - usually not just the current followers - should live and interact, many of them absolutist ones at that.

Does it not matter whether people are Communists, Libertarians, Nazis, or Anarchists? So long as the religious like to pretend that their weird delusions should have any impact on anyone but themselves, then there is good reason to keep one's distance from them (or fight against them if need me).

War in the middle east.
.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU.
Sorry.


Let me rephrase that - How uninformed can you be to even say this? A WAR in the middle east. ONE ONGOING never-ending war in the middle east.
This is so irritating. This is how people are in some places, and they form a large portion of the first and second world population! How the hell can you reach such a conclusion?
There is no "WAR" in the middle east. There is no war right now. There WERE wars in the past.
I am so mad right now I am having trouble not lashing out at this one.
Please.... just.... ignore... this useless thread. Please.

Link55:
You wanna know what gets on my nerves?! When people don't like a girl/guy because they are a diffrent religion or they have no religion or belief. But religions now are like the main reasons of wars. For example WW1, WW2, and the war in the middle east, ect.

Er.....no. No they really aren't.

WWI was due to some rather fraught history between European states, exacerbated by a string of diplomatic commitments, and somewhat antiquated means of waging warfare.

WW2 was due to an aggressively expansionist Germany driven by a nationalistic philosophy. It certainly borrowed some religious imagery and rhetoric, and arguably acted like a theocracy in the sense that it was unquestioning and dogmatic.

Some of the wars in the Middle East have a religious element, but to attribute it entirely to religion greatly oversimplifies the situation.

I only hate religion when it motivates people to put a lot of effort into forcing things to be a certain way, when their is no good reason behind it... other than "religion convinced them it should be so".
I remember when my dad used to smack me if I forgot to pray to his god before any meal. I felt like a hostage to a madman.

Katatori-kun:
Sorry, this is 100% wrong. Religions are ideas. They don't exist. They don't cause anything.

What? So ideas never causes anything? It is the very thing that causes shit to happen. An idea that grows and ends in genocide or a cure for cancer. If it is political, religious or both is irrelevant. I am going to believe you worded your self clumsy.

Naheal:

Katatori-kun:
Sorry, this is 100% wrong. Religions are ideas. They don't exist. They don't cause anything.

Hnnnnng..... no. While correct that religions are ideas, stating that they, as in the ideas spawned from religions, don't cause anything is outright false. No long-term action is ever taken without the initial spark from an idea.

You're confusing the claim. People act based on ideas, sure. But to say religion caused the idea is patently absurd. And without a magic machine that peers inside people's heads and perfectly isolates one thought from another, you will never have any evidence to back up your claim.

Whereas there is plenty of evidence of the counter claim. Even leaving aside link55's ridiculous notion that religion caused WWI and WWII or that there is a single war in the middle east, his underlying claim that religions cause war can be easily disproven by the fact that there are numerous pacifist, religious groups which due to their religions eschew war under all circumstances. Between that and the billions of religious people around the world who do not support any war at the moment, it's pretty obvious that religion does not cause war.

Furthermore, this notion that beliefs cause behavior is extremely dangerous from a legal point of view. The moment we attribute the cause of someone's behavior to the religious group they are a part of and not their individual, internal motivations, we relieve that individual of any responsibility for their actions. If we continue with this facile, bigoted assumption that religion causes war, then religious who do have wars in the name of religion are not responsible for their actions- the religion made them do it.

Human cognition is a wonderfully complicated thing. Trying to reduce it to shallow principles like "religion causes war" shows nothing more than a selfish need to attack religion at the expense of honesty.

Link55:
For example WW1, WW2, and the war in the middle east, etc.

There are plenty of religiously fueled wars you could have chosen to make your point, and you went with two that had nothing to do with religion and one that doesn't exist. Did you not consider the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the French Wars of Religion, or the MOTHERFUCKING CRUSADES?

DJjaffacake:

Link55:
For example WW1, WW2, and the war in the middle east, etc.

There are plenty of religiously fueled wars you could have chosen to make your point, and you went with two that had nothing to do with religion and one that doesn't exist. Did you not consider the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the French Wars of Religion, or the MOTHERFUCKING CRUSADES?

.
But there was no '47-'49 war Israeli-Arab war! There IS an ongoing GIANT war in the middle east that never ends because they hate America's freedom and don't want to give us oil!
...
I greatly dislike this guy.

Katatori-kun:
You're confusing the claim. People act based on ideas, sure. But to say religion caused the idea is patently absurd. And without a magic machine that peers inside people's heads and perfectly isolates one thought from another, you will never have any evidence to back up your claim.

Ideas stem from one another and from teacher to student. The presence of a religious context is irrelevant in that case.

While it's true that causation can never be determined, examining the correlation between the two could at least allow us to predict behavioral patterns from specific idea groups.

Whereas there is plenty of evidence of the counter claim. Even leaving aside link55's ridiculous notion that religion caused WWI and WWII or that there is a single war in the middle east, his underlying claim that religions cause war can be easily disproven by the fact that there are numerous pacifist, religious groups which due to their religions eschew war under all circumstances. Between that and the billions of religious people around the world who do not support any war at the moment, it's pretty obvious that religion does not cause war.

Your comment here is absurd unless you're claiming that the presence of religion does not cause wars. However, the idea that religion, in general, does not and will never cause wars misses the basic idea of tribalism that stems from these social groups getting together. People can, and often do, war with one another for little reason beyond "they're different than us" and religion, being one more social construct that complicates the issue.

Furthermore, this notion that beliefs cause behavior is extremely dangerous from a legal point of view. The moment we attribute the cause of someone's behavior to the religious group they are a part of and not their individual, internal motivations, we relieve that individual of any responsibility for their actions. If we continue with this facile, bigoted assumption that religion causes war, then religious who do have wars in the name of religion are not responsible for their actions- the religion made them do it.

Belief does cause behavior, however I do see the argument from a legal sense. The problem with assuming that belief does not cause behavior is one of perception and the very decision making process. Belief affects perception which affects information gathering which affects how a person is going to make a decision; propaganda works in a very similar manner.

Human cognition is a wonderfully complicated thing. Trying to reduce it to shallow principles like "religion causes war" shows nothing more than a selfish need to attack religion at the expense of honesty.

Oh, quit getting your panties in a twist. You realize that I'm Christian, right? Claiming that religion does not, and has never, cause war is outright foolishness. You may want to white knight the premise, but this isn't a black-and-white concept.

Naheal:
While it's true that causation can never be determined, examining the correlation between the two could at least allow us to predict behavioral patterns from specific idea groups.

Agreed. So let's examine the patterns. Very few religious outliers call for holy war without there being another social/economic/political/racial/cultural justification for the war. Very few religious outliers reject war entirely. The vast majority sit on the bell curve in the middle, supporting war when it is justified by more causes than just religion.

Pretty clearly religion does not cause wars. It may be used by people to justify wars, but that doesn't make religion the cause.

Whereas there is plenty of evidence of the counter claim. Even leaving aside link55's ridiculous notion that religion caused WWI and WWII or that there is a single war in the middle east, his underlying claim that religions cause war can be easily disproven by the fact that there are numerous pacifist, religious groups which due to their religions eschew war under all circumstances. Between that and the billions of religious people around the world who do not support any war at the moment, it's pretty obvious that religion does not cause war.

Your comment here is absurd unless you're claiming that the presence of religion does not cause wars. However, the idea that religion, in general, does not and will never cause wars misses the basic idea of tribalism that stems from these social groups getting together. People can, and often do, war with one another for little reason beyond "they're different than us" and religion, being one more social construct that complicates the issue.

Exactly my point. People justify their wars for all sorts of reasons- singling out religion and somehow imagining that it caused the war is just a silly strategy for attacking religion.

Oh, quit getting your panties in a twist. You realize that I'm Christian, right? Claiming that religion does not, and has never, cause war is outright foolishness. You may want to white knight the premise, but this isn't a black-and-white concept.

I don't care what your belief is, personal details are irrelevant to the discussion. Beliefs do not cause actions. People are motivated by a complex and deeply interwoven set of needs and desires.

Link55:
You wanna know what gets on my nerves?! When people don't like a girl/guy because they are a diffrent religion or they have no religion or belief. But religions now are like the main reasons of wars. For example WW1, WW2, and the war in the middle east, ect. So what if one person is Christian and another is a Scientoligist, that is still not right! If you don't agree with me I have no problem with that, but does it really make a diffrence what religion you are. This is another thing that gets on my nerves is that when somebody tries to turn someone into a diffrent religion. Like if they want to see the religion you are and they'll connsider it I mean that's fine but when you force someone to chenge their religion, I mean that's not right. Do you agree with me?

Its the religion of my ethnicity, so... it kind of feels "natural".

TheIronRuler:
War in the middle east.
.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU.
Sorry.


Let me rephrase that - How uninformed can you be to even say this? A WAR in the middle east. ONE ONGOING never-ending war in the middle east.
This is so irritating. This is how people are in some places, and they form a large portion of the first and second world population! How the hell can you reach such a conclusion?
There is no "WAR" in the middle east. There is no war right now. There WERE wars in the past.
I am so mad right now I am having trouble not lashing out at this one.
Please.... just.... ignore... this useless thread. Please.

Your Israeli, right? Could it be said that Israel is in a war for preservation from its neighbors, or do you think that's a careless use of the word?

Katatori-kun:
Agreed. So let's examine the patterns. Very few religious outliers call for holy war without there being another social/economic/political/racial/cultural justification for the war. Very few religious outliers reject war entirely. The vast majority sit on the bell curve in the middle, supporting war when it is justified by more causes than just religion.

Pretty clearly religion does not cause wars. It may be used by people to justify wars, but that doesn't make religion the cause.

Really. Then what was the cause of those?

Exactly my point. People justify their wars for all sorts of reasons- singling out religion and somehow imagining that it caused the war is just a silly strategy for attacking religion.

Yet saying that religion has never caused war is also absurd, which is what you're doing right now. Replace "religion" with "imperialism" or "nationalism." Ideologies of all kinds spark wars and motivate populations to fight said wars and religion is no different. Hell, we had a war who's entire sold premise was an ideological conflict between communism and capitalism.

I don't care what your belief is, personal details are irrelevant to the discussion.

Then why would I bring up something like that? Knowing the history of a specific religion and how religious beliefs affect decisions first-hand isn't relevant to the discussion?

Beliefs do not cause actions. People are motivated by a complex and deeply interwoven set of needs and desires.

But, they do, especially when combined with social pressure. You're either missing my point within my argument or you're attempting to bury your head in the sand to make yourself feel better. Religion is a tool, and a potentially dangerous one, in the same manner that a woodcutting axe is a tool that can potentially harm someone if it's not used properly.

Cakes:
How in the holy mother of fuck was religion like-the-main-reason-of-war for WWI and II?

Yeah, seriously.

Volf:

TheIronRuler:
War in the middle east.
.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU.
Sorry.


Let me rephrase that - How uninformed can you be to even say this? A WAR in the middle east. ONE ONGOING never-ending war in the middle east.
This is so irritating. This is how people are in some places, and they form a large portion of the first and second world population! How the hell can you reach such a conclusion?
There is no "WAR" in the middle east. There is no war right now. There WERE wars in the past.
I am so mad right now I am having trouble not lashing out at this one.
Please.... just.... ignore... this useless thread. Please.

Your Israeli, right? Could it be said that Israel is in a war for preservation from its neighbors, or do you think that's a careless use of the word?

.
No, not at all. There is no war in the Middle east. Last time we had a war in the middle east was '73. Before that was '67. Then it was '47-'49. War in the middle east means that all nations in the area took up arms and attacked one another. Even Iraq attacked Israel in '47-'49.
These small skirmishes are rarely between armies and are fought between a semi-militarized political organization Hamas (There are plenty of others like them) and an organized force, the IDF.

TheIronRuler:

Volf:

TheIronRuler:
War in the middle east.
.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU.
Sorry.


Let me rephrase that - How uninformed can you be to even say this? A WAR in the middle east. ONE ONGOING never-ending war in the middle east.
This is so irritating. This is how people are in some places, and they form a large portion of the first and second world population! How the hell can you reach such a conclusion?
There is no "WAR" in the middle east. There is no war right now. There WERE wars in the past.
I am so mad right now I am having trouble not lashing out at this one.
Please.... just.... ignore... this useless thread. Please.

Your Israeli, right? Could it be said that Israel is in a war for preservation from its neighbors, or do you think that's a careless use of the word?

.
No, not at all. There is no war in the Middle east. Last time we had a war in the middle east was '73. Before that was '67. Then it was '47-'49. War in the middle east means that all nations in the area took up arms and attacked one another. Even Iraq attacked Israel in '47-'49.
These small skirmishes are rarely between armies and are fought between a semi-militarized political organization Hamas (There are plenty of others like them) and an organized force, the IDF.

Ok thanks for replying

Naheal:

Katatori-kun:
Pretty clearly religion does not cause wars. It may be used by people to justify wars, but that doesn't make religion the cause.

Really. Then what was the cause of those?

Ultimately when you get down to it, all wars are caused either by greed or by fear.

Yet saying that religion has never caused war is also absurd, which is what you're doing right now. Replace "religion" with "imperialism" or "nationalism." Ideologies of all kinds spark wars and motivate populations to fight said wars and religion is no different.

Incorrect. Ideologies are used to justify wars. They are not the cause.

Religion is a tool, and a potentially dangerous one, in the same manner that a woodcutting axe is a tool that can potentially harm someone if it's not used properly.

You've perfectly demonstrated my point, and it appears you don't even realize it. Religion is exactly as you've said, a tool. And there is all sorts of potential for any tool to be dangerous. But just as the woodcutting axe doesn't cause a psychopathic murdering rampage, religions do not cause wars. They are tools that some people use to make wars possible. They aren't the cause of the wars themselves, and there is absolutely no reason to believe that if religion was magically removed from the equation that another petty tribal ideology wouldn't take it's place.

Volf:

TheIronRuler:

Volf:
Your Israeli, right? Could it be said that Israel is in a war for preservation from its neighbors, or do you think that's a careless use of the word?

.
No, not at all. There is no war in the Middle east. Last time we had a war in the middle east was '73. Before that was '67. Then it was '47-'49. War in the middle east means that all nations in the area took up arms and attacked one another. Even Iraq attacked Israel in '47-'49.
These small skirmishes are rarely between armies and are fought between a semi-militarized political organization Hamas (There are plenty of others like them) and an organized force, the IDF.

Ok thanks for replying

.
It would be unfair to say but there were two other wars between Israel and Lebanon and between Syria and Israel, but it all involved those Palestinians somehow with Hamas acting in the second Lebanon war in 2006. The other one was a civil war in Lebanon where Israel intervened up to 2000 and helped the south defend against the north, Syria supported the others.
I should mention those but they don't include either Egypt of Jordan, so they aren't a war in the middle east.

Katatori-kun:
Incorrect. Ideologies are used to justify wars. They are not the cause.

What about WW2, caused by the Nazi ideology of Lebensraum and racial superiority?

Edit: Oh yeah, and Grossdeutschland and German military superiority.

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