Disclaimer: The following does not apply to all religions, or even all believers of a particular religion. I know this, and you don't need to remind me. I'm addressing a particular argument that SOME religious people use.
I just had a realization. We're forum users on the Internet, and many of us have been on the net long enough to know that when a popup comes up for a program you haven't installed saying "YOUR COMPUTER IS INFECTED! CLICK THIS LINK!", most of us know not to click the link and then to figure out if that was just an ad or if we really are infected.
However, the same people who won't fall for that make threads and posts here and on other sites amounting to "YOU ARE GOING TO HELL IF YOU DON'T ACCEPT JESUS!" and not only that, but they defend it by saying "Yeah, we don't have any proof except for this book. You'll just have to take our word for it that what we say is true and this book really is the word of God."
Now, if someone ever uses scare tactics on me and then the only way they can back it up is to tell me to just take their word for it, I know that if I do whatever they're suggesting, then I have committed an act of extreme stupidity. Many others on the net also know this, and yet they still believe the whole saved thing.
I don't know how many here believe that nonbelievers are going to hell, but I do know of one regular poster here who thinks they don't get into heaven, and though I rarely agree with him I have a lot of respect for his intelligence and would be very surprised if he fell for a scare scam, so there's at least one person here that is not part of the choir I'm preaching to.
What I want to know is how you reconcile being skeptical enough to not fall for scare scams with taking the claims of religions that use the same tactics at face value.
I simply remind them that Islam and Christendom has a similar belief and therefore they will go into the hell of the other religion and not the heaven of their faith. The possibility is always there, and if they refuse to acknowledge the god of the other faith, then they should bring up the arguments they use to dismiss the other faith against their own.
McMullen: Disclaimer: The following does not apply to all religions, or even all believers of a particular religion. I know this, and you don't need to remind me. I'm addressing a particular argument that SOME religious people use.
I just had a realization. We're forum users on the Internet, and many of us have been on the net long enough to know that when a popup comes up for a program you haven't installed saying "YOUR COMPUTER IS INFECTED! CLICK THIS LINK!", most of us know not to click the link and then to figure out if that was just an ad or if we really are infected.
However, the same people who won't fall for that make threads and posts here and on other sites amounting to "YOU ARE GOING TO HELL IF YOU DON'T ACCEPT JESUS!" and not only that, but they defend it by saying "Yeah, we don't have any proof except for this book. You'll just have to take our word for it that what we say is true and this book really is the word of God."
Now, if someone ever uses scare tactics on me and then the only way they can back it up is to tell me to just take their word for it, I know that if I do whatever they're suggesting, then I have committed an act of extreme stupidity. Many others on the net also know this, and yet they still believe the whole saved thing.
I don't know how many here believe that nonbelievers are going to hell, but I do know of one regular poster here who thinks they don't get into heaven, and though I rarely agree with him I have a lot of respect for his intelligence and would be very surprised if he fell for a scare scam, so there's at least one person here that is not part of the choir I'm preaching to.
What I want to know is how you reconcile being skeptical enough to not fall for scare scams with taking the claims of religions that use the same tactics at face value.
its not always scare tactics, sometimes they genuinely are worried for other people and want to try and help you. you may not believe it is true, but they are concerned for you and want to help.
Because people tend to apply different standards of evidence to the things they were taught since childhood in particular. Obviously not the only reason, but by far one of the most common ones. You could equally ask "why do these particular folks accept apologetics for their own religion but not when similarly weak arguments are made in favour of another religion?" because the principle is the same. This is not specific to religion, by the way, we can all fall victim to it if we don't critically question what we were taught and fail to evaluate it for its objective merits.
Presumably, they think that the threat of hell (or whatever) coming from their own religion is more real to non-believers than the threat of hell (or whatever) coming from another religion, mostly because they consider their own religion more believable of course. You will not see a fundamentalist Christian preacher consider the threats of, say, an Islamic interpretation of hell (and the conditions for going there) as nearly as convincing as their own threats of their particular interpretation of a Christian hell.
The really "fire and brimstone"-types are usually too steeped in their particular dogma anyway to consider such questions. They have their truth and other religions' claims and contradictions to their religion/their particular interpretation of their religion don't really come into it in the first place.
It's quite possible for people to treat one set of ideas entirely differently to another set.
That said, many believers genuinely don't react (or at least don't think they react) to the eternal-damnation threats in their religion. Certainly speaking from my time as a Christian that was a worry, but more often you're drawn to it because of a positive feeling, usually attributed to feeling the love of God or somesuch.
TheIronRuler: I simply remind them that Islam and Christendom has a similar belief and therefore they will go into the hell of the other religion and not the heaven of their faith. The possibility is always there, and if they refuse to acknowledge the god of the other faith, then they should bring up the arguments they use to dismiss the other faith against their own.
Untrue. Islam states that MUSLIMS who fail in their honest belief in Allah will end up in Jahannam. One branch believes they will be there only temporarily and then may be forgiven on their merits, the other I think is uncertain if they can ever be forgiven for turning their back on Allah.
For those who aren't muslim, each is judged on their own merit. In fact, Jews and Christians were specifically highlighted as those who would be treated as Muslim if they only followed their own law as given by Moses (and Jesus for Christians)
The Quran specifically states Allah can forgive anyone he wants and that no one can no who will go to Jahannam. These two lines seem to specifically indicate that you are wrong as then it would be easy to tell who was heading for punishment with certainty.
TheIronRuler: I simply remind them that Islam and Christendom has a similar belief and therefore they will go into the hell of the other religion and not the heaven of their faith. The possibility is always there, and if they refuse to acknowledge the god of the other faith, then they should bring up the arguments they use to dismiss the other faith against their own.
Untrue. Islam states that MUSLIMS who fail in their honest belief in Allah will end up in Jahannam. One branch believes they will be there only temporarily and then may be forgiven on their merits, the other I think is uncertain if they can ever be forgiven for turning their back on Allah.
For those who aren't muslim, each is judged on their own merit. In fact, Jews and Christians were specifically highlighted as those who would be treated as Muslim if they only followed their own law as given by Moses (and Jesus for Christians)
The Quran specifically states Allah can forgive anyone he wants and that no one can no who will go to Jahannam. These two lines seem to specifically indicate that you are wrong as then it would be easy to tell who was heading for punishment with certainty.
. What the hell is wrong with you, did you not understand my whole damn post? (Also, 'Kill all of the Infidels/Jews' sounds familiar? It does? Oh yeah, it does to me.) I said that if one does not believe in another faith but believes in his, then he must ask himself and confront his faith with the same reasons he dismisses the other faith. i.e. - Why are you a christian and not a Muslim? What makes your religion right and his wrong? Would you stop annoying me please and acting smug - "Oh, I know more about Muslims than you". What do you say to Hamas with killing Jews in their Charter? Is that because they want to put me in heaven? How kind of them.
TheIronRuler: I simply remind them that Islam and Christendom has a similar belief and therefore they will go into the hell of the other religion and not the heaven of their faith. The possibility is always there, and if they refuse to acknowledge the god of the other faith, then they should bring up the arguments they use to dismiss the other faith against their own.
Untrue. Islam states that MUSLIMS who fail in their honest belief in Allah will end up in Jahannam. One branch believes they will be there only temporarily and then may be forgiven on their merits, the other I think is uncertain if they can ever be forgiven for turning their back on Allah.
For those who aren't muslim, each is judged on their own merit. In fact, Jews and Christians were specifically highlighted as those who would be treated as Muslim if they only followed their own law as given by Moses (and Jesus for Christians)
The Quran specifically states Allah can forgive anyone he wants and that no one can no who will go to Jahannam. These two lines seem to specifically indicate that you are wrong as then it would be easy to tell who was heading for punishment with certainty.
. What the hell is wrong with you, did you not understand my whole damn post?
(Also, 'Kill all of the Infidels/Jews' sounds familiar? It does? Oh yeah, it does to me.) I said that if one does not believe in another faith but believes in his, then he must ask himself and confront his faith with the same reasons he dismisses the other faith. i.e. - Why are you a christian and not a Muslim? What makes your religion right and his wrong? Would you stop annoying me please and acting smug - "Oh, I know more about Muslims than you". What do you say to Hamas with killing Jews in their Charter? Is that because they want to put me in heaven? How kind of them.
Untrue. Islam states that MUSLIMS who fail in their honest belief in Allah will end up in Jahannam. One branch believes they will be there only temporarily and then may be forgiven on their merits, the other I think is uncertain if they can ever be forgiven for turning their back on Allah.
For those who aren't muslim, each is judged on their own merit. In fact, Jews and Christians were specifically highlighted as those who would be treated as Muslim if they only followed their own law as given by Moses (and Jesus for Christians)
The Quran specifically states Allah can forgive anyone he wants and that no one can no who will go to Jahannam. These two lines seem to specifically indicate that you are wrong as then it would be easy to tell who was heading for punishment with certainty.
. What the hell is wrong with you, did you not understand my whole damn post?
(Also, 'Kill all of the Infidels/Jews' sounds familiar? It does? Oh yeah, it does to me.) I said that if one does not believe in another faith but believes in his, then he must ask himself and confront his faith with the same reasons he dismisses the other faith. i.e. - Why are you a christian and not a Muslim? What makes your religion right and his wrong? Would you stop annoying me please and acting smug - "Oh, I know more about Muslims than you". What do you say to Hamas with killing Jews in their Charter? Is that because they want to put me in heaven? How kind of them.
TheIronRuler: I simply remind them that Islam and Christendom has a similar belief and therefore they will go into the hell of the other religion and not the heaven of their faith. The possibility is always there, and if they refuse to acknowledge the god of the other faith, then they should bring up the arguments they use to dismiss the other faith against their own.
Untrue. Islam states that MUSLIMS who fail in their honest belief in Allah will end up in Jahannam. One branch believes they will be there only temporarily and then may be forgiven on their merits, the other I think is uncertain if they can ever be forgiven for turning their back on Allah.
For those who aren't muslim, each is judged on their own merit. In fact, Jews and Christians were specifically highlighted as those who would be treated as Muslim if they only followed their own law as given by Moses (and Jesus for Christians)
The Quran specifically states Allah can forgive anyone he wants and that no one can no who will go to Jahannam. These two lines seem to specifically indicate that you are wrong as then it would be easy to tell who was heading for punishment with certainty.
. What the hell is wrong with you, did you not understand my whole damn post? (Also, 'Kill all of the Infidels/Jews' sounds familiar? It does? Oh yeah, it does to me.) I said that if one does not believe in another faith but believes in his, then he must ask himself and confront his faith with the same reasons he dismisses the other faith. i.e. - Why are you a christian and not a Muslim? What makes your religion right and his wrong? Would you stop annoying me please and acting smug - "Oh, I know more about Muslims than you". What do you say to Hamas with killing Jews in their Charter? Is that because they want to put me in heaven? How kind of them.
You don't understand the difference between an extremist terrorist group and what the religion teacher? That's sad.
It's also funny that you still don't seem to understand what you posted was wrong and would rather launch personal attacks on me instead of admitting you got it wrong.
. What the hell is wrong with you, did you not understand my whole damn post?
(Also, 'Kill all of the Infidels/Jews' sounds familiar? It does? Oh yeah, it does to me.) I said that if one does not believe in another faith but believes in his, then he must ask himself and confront his faith with the same reasons he dismisses the other faith. i.e. - Why are you a christian and not a Muslim? What makes your religion right and his wrong? Would you stop annoying me please and acting smug - "Oh, I know more about Muslims than you". What do you say to Hamas with killing Jews in their Charter? Is that because they want to put me in heaven? How kind of them.
Hamas does not speak for the Islamic faith.
. They disagree with that statement.
And I speak for all users who go by your name, thus because I said it its true and you don't speak for you, I do.
-snip- You don't understand the difference between an extremist terrorist group and what the religion teacher? That's sad.
It's also funny that you still don't seem to understand what you posted was wrong and would rather launch personal attacks on me instead of admitting you got it wrong.
. You look at my examples instead of looking at my arguments. I am angry at you because I feel like you are ignoring what I said. "The possibility is always there, and if they refuse to acknowledge the god of the other faith, then they should bring up the arguments they use to dismiss the other faith against their own." HERE it is. I never intended it to go down this road but you got my message wrong and I got angry at you.
tstorm823: Why do some people feel that religion is stupid and God is imaginary while they believe in ghosts and telepathy? Some people are just weird.
I'm atheist and I know someone like that lol. She's kind of a conspiracy theorist neo-pagan-whatever nut. Basically she spends a whole lunch period bad mouthing Christians for being irrational, then tells us that she's worried her issues with her boyfriend stem from them not being from aligned birthsigns or not having had their first kiss while her zodiac symbol wasn't aligned with Mars or what not, and that evolution is real for other animals but humans are actually aliens, and when I try to point out that those aliens would have had to have come from somewhere she says that she 'doesn't want a science lesson' and that all science is 'just a myth created by insecure geeks who feel a need to control and explain the universe'.
-snip- You don't understand the difference between an extremist terrorist group and what the religion teacher? That's sad.
It's also funny that you still don't seem to understand what you posted was wrong and would rather launch personal attacks on me instead of admitting you got it wrong.
. You look at my examples instead of looking at my arguments. I am angry at you because I feel like you are ignoring what I said. "The possibility is always there, and if they refuse to acknowledge the god of the other faith, then they should bring up the arguments they use to dismiss the other faith against their own." HERE it is. I never intended it to go down this road but you got my message wrong and I got angry at you.
Then you need to look into anger management.
And you STILL don't get it, only one of those parties said what you claimed. Your example is pretty much useless because of it.
-snip- You don't understand the difference between an extremist terrorist group and what the religion teacher? That's sad.
It's also funny that you still don't seem to understand what you posted was wrong and would rather launch personal attacks on me instead of admitting you got it wrong.
. You look at my examples instead of looking at my arguments. I am angry at you because I feel like you are ignoring what I said. "The possibility is always there, and if they refuse to acknowledge the god of the other faith, then they should bring up the arguments they use to dismiss the other faith against their own." HERE it is. I never intended it to go down this road but you got my message wrong and I got angry at you.
Then you need to look into anger management.
And you STILL don't get it, only one of those parties said what you claimed. Your example is pretty much useless because of it.
. Side A says his god is the one and only god and he follows his word and the word of his holy book. Side B says his god is the one and only god and he follows his word and the word of his holy book. Side A says that Side B is wrong using Arguments X,Y,Z. Can side A use the arguments X,Y and Z against his own faith and no dismiss it like he does dismiss the god of side B?
tstorm823: Why do some people feel that religion is stupid and God is imaginary while they believe in ghosts and telepathy? Some people are just weird.
I'm atheist and I know someone like that lol. She's kind of a conspiracy theorist neo-pagan-whatever nut. Basically she spends a whole lunch period bad mouthing Christians for being irrational, then tells us that she's worried her issues with her boyfriend stem from them not being from aligned birthsigns or not having had their first kiss while her zodiac symbol wasn't aligned with Mars or what not, and that evolution is real for other animals but humans are actually aliens, and when I try to point out that those aliens would have had to have come from somewhere she says that she 'doesn't want a science lesson' and that all science is 'just a myth created by insecure geeks who feel a need to control and explain the universe'.
That's funny. I could say the same about astrology. Only I would replace "insecure geeks" with "insecure superstitious people and paranoids".
tstorm823: Why do some people feel that religion is stupid and God is imaginary while they believe in ghosts and telepathy? Some people are just weird.
I'm atheist and I know someone like that lol. She's kind of a conspiracy theorist neo-pagan-whatever nut. Basically she spends a whole lunch period bad mouthing Christians for being irrational, then tells us that she's worried her issues with her boyfriend stem from them not being from aligned birthsigns or not having had their first kiss while her zodiac symbol wasn't aligned with Mars or what not, and that evolution is real for other animals but humans are actually aliens, and when I try to point out that those aliens would have had to have come from somewhere she says that she 'doesn't want a science lesson' and that all science is 'just a myth created by insecure geeks who feel a need to control and explain the universe'.
I'm starting to hate how Evangelical Protestantism seems to have hijacked the view of Christianity on this site. Honestly, the amount of times I here people say "Look what Christianity just did!" Then point to a single Protestant Preacher is simply astounding. It's moments like these that I'm glad Catholicism is organized in an Absolute Monarchy/Theocracy, at least then the Priests all have to adhere to a certain view that they all agree on.
I really have nothing to say about this because I've never had the "Scare Scam" crap pulled on me, most of the priests I've met have been rather nice and didn't show any interest in "Converting people to save them from hell!"
Kendarik: You don't understand the difference between an extremist terrorist group and what the religion teacher? That's sad.
Here's the thing, you see; there is no "what the religion teaches". There is no one single doctrine that is objectively correct and all others are wrong. It's all down to different interpretations.
That extremist terrorist group? It's just as likely that they are right as the most benign anglican church, or for that matter the catholic church, which isn't based on one single unified belief either.
There exists no "true christianity" as a standard to which one can hold any branch of christianity. There is nothing but a "No true scotsman"-fallacy to be had there. What you have is number of followers, and that is in no way whatsoever an indicator of one denomination being more "true" than any other.
Edit: And I am aware that the terrorist group in question is islamist, but that is of no consequence. You can just replace the appropriate words with islam equivalents if you like.
tstorm823: Why do some people feel that religion is stupid and God is imaginary while they believe in ghosts and telepathy? Some people are just weird.
It's a matter of dualist vs. monist views. A dualist believes there are at least two planes of existence, a physical and a non-physical though there may also be others. A monist(what I am) believes that there's just the one physical realm. Oddly enough, this belief can be completely separated from religion. Especially when you use the narrower definition of atheism meaning just doesn't believe in Gods.
On the OP: The reason they do it is because they know the stupid ad is a scam. Hell is a very real danger to them. It's a legitimate fear to them. Then there's also the matter that this scare scam, as you call it, was originally learned from people they trust. It's a lot harder to reject anything from someone you trust rather than an anonymous source on the internet.
. You look at my examples instead of looking at my arguments. I am angry at you because I feel like you are ignoring what I said. "The possibility is always there, and if they refuse to acknowledge the god of the other faith, then they should bring up the arguments they use to dismiss the other faith against their own." HERE it is. I never intended it to go down this road but you got my message wrong and I got angry at you.
Then you need to look into anger management.
And you STILL don't get it, only one of those parties said what you claimed. Your example is pretty much useless because of it.
. Side A says his god is the one and only god and he follows his word and the word of his holy book. Side B says his god is the one and only god and he follows his word and the word of his holy book. Side A says that Side B is wrong using Arguments X,Y,Z. Can side A use the arguments X,Y and Z against his own faith and no dismiss it like he does dismiss the god of side B?
Except that DOESN'T APPLY in your example.
Christianity says pretty much what you claim.
Islam does not conclude Christianity is following the wrong god nor following the wrong book. Islam ENDORSES Christianity and the founder of Islam said Christians only need to follow their own book to be equal in god's eyes to Muslims.
So there is no side B in your original example. Get it yet?
Kendarik: You don't understand the difference between an extremist terrorist group and what the religion teacher? That's sad.
Here's the thing, you see; there is no "what the religion teaches". There is no one single doctrine that is objectively correct and all others are wrong. It's all down to different interpretations.
That extremist terrorist group? It's just as likely that they are right as the most benign anglican church, or for that matter the catholic church, which isn't based on one single unified belief either.
There exists no "true christianity" as a standard to which one can hold any branch of christianity. There is nothing but a "No true scotsman"-fallacy to be had there. What you have is number of followers, and that is in no way whatsoever an indicator of one denomination being more "true" than any other.
Edit: And I am aware that the terrorist group in question is islamist, but that is of no consequence. You can just replace the appropriate words with islam equivalents if you like.
The problem with you cutting the quote was you removed context. We were arguing about the fact that the other poster about his claim that those nutballs were a fair representation of Islam, which they are not. It would be as silly as saying the black people in a high security prison represent black people fairly, or that the KKK represents white people.
You've gone off in a totally different direction. You are correct that there are multiple ways to understand a religion. It isn't however correct to say they are all of equal value. A little analysis often shows one to be clearly wrong on the face of it, while others it is true there is room for debate.
And you STILL don't get it, only one of those parties said what you claimed. Your example is pretty much useless because of it.
. Side A says his god is the one and only god and he follows his word and the word of his holy book. Side B says his god is the one and only god and he follows his word and the word of his holy book. Side A says that Side B is wrong using Arguments X,Y,Z. Can side A use the arguments X,Y and Z against his own faith and no dismiss it like he does dismiss the god of side B?
Except that DOESN'T APPLY in your example.
Christianity says pretty much what you claim.
Islam does not conclude Christianity is following the wrong god nor following the wrong book. Islam ENDORSES Christianity and the founder of Islam said Christians only need to follow their own book to be equal in god's eyes to Muslims.
So there is no side B in your original example. Get it yet?
. No. I did not specify what is either religion. The religion can be Mormonism, Scientology or some other religion that shares that belief that it is the one and only true belief with the one and only God and every other is incorrect. You seem to be so smug you can debunk my claims but they go right over your head because they are simple. A "My god is real, your god isn't real." B "My god is real, your god isn't real." Then I ask side A to use the same arguments it uses to dismiss the existence of B's God against his own God. You know what? I'm done with Islam. Stop clinging to this stupid notion, ok? You refuse to acknowledge those that murder infidels and try to say Islam accepts Christians while Coptic Christians are persecuted daily in Egypt their churches burnt to the group and themselves lynched by riled up mobs. THIS is why I consider your argument stupid and null and so god damn annoying because you don't even look at my argument and continue to cling into the same sentence you did earlier. The teachings mean nothing if they are butchering Christians for the name of Allah.
. Side A says his god is the one and only god and he follows his word and the word of his holy book. Side B says his god is the one and only god and he follows his word and the word of his holy book. Side A says that Side B is wrong using Arguments X,Y,Z. Can side A use the arguments X,Y and Z against his own faith and no dismiss it like he does dismiss the god of side B?
Except that DOESN'T APPLY in your example.
Christianity says pretty much what you claim.
Islam does not conclude Christianity is following the wrong god nor following the wrong book. Islam ENDORSES Christianity and the founder of Islam said Christians only need to follow their own book to be equal in god's eyes to Muslims.
So there is no side B in your original example. Get it yet?
. No. I did not specify what is either religion.
Actually you did in the original and that's what started this conversation when I pointed out that it didn't apply in Islam. If you now want to move the goalposts and make it about something totally fictional that's fine, I can make up lots of fictional stuff too, but at least you now seem to acknowledge your original example is wrong, which is all I was saying.
You know what? I'm done with Islam. Stop clinging to this stupid notion, ok? You refuse to acknowledge those that murder infidels and try to say Islam accepts Christians while Coptic Christians are persecuted daily in Egypt their churches burnt to the group and themselves lynched by riled up mobs. THIS is why I consider your argument stupid and null and so god damn annoying because you don't even look at my argument and continue to cling into the same sentence you did earlier. The teachings mean nothing if they are butchering Christians for the name of Allah.
Ah, bigoted hate, that's so nice. Yes, the actions of a minority should definitely be held against millions of other people.
. I used the two as examples because they are the two largest monotheistic religions. I care little for your excuses. Can you please look at the hypothetical situation and respond? EDIT: The persecution of Coptic Christians is not done by a small segment of the population. The military itself, the largest peacekeeping force in Egypt is ruthless in its reaction to Coptic protests. You cannot ignore this and say that these are extremists. This is the 'no true Scotsman' argument where you say that these people aren't real Muslims because real Muslims would never assault Christians and try to kill them. Because we like to Ignore Sudan and the religious ongoing war there, don't we? (+) Because we like to ignore the religious cleansing in Iraq where Assyrian Christians were persecuted away from their homes for being Christians. These refugees fled the larger cities and away from organized semi-militarized Islamist gangs. Two examples of Religious minorities in Arab nations being persecuted for being Christians, in Egypt and Iraq. You DO NOT want me to get started with Lebanon and the southern army, the interference of Syria and Israel and the whole mess there. Christian, Sunni and Shiite militias going at each other's throats with Syria and Israel supporting some party and enabling it to slaughter civilians. You cannot ignore this and say that Islam is a religion of peace and reveres Christians as equals, or as people that could reach heaven. STOP doing it, I am not bigoted. I am informed of the atrocities done in the region for the sake of religion.
People have been rather desensitized to the Bible scare tactics. I think the last time that stuff hit it big was in the '70s when Televangelists started making big waves on the airwaves. But now, as with anything repeated to the point of ridiculousness, people have gotten used to it and nobody cares.
On the contrary, email scams and whatnot are still a fairly new thing to a lot of people, so they haven't gotten used to them yet.
If you'd been taught from childhood that the suspicious links were totally respectable and legit, then such unfounded and illogical belief would be hard for many to shake.
That they are people who'll happily accept that others who don't believe in their god will be punished for eternity is the more relevant aspect though. They lack not only skepticism, but basic human decency altogether.
. I used the two as examples because they are the two largest monotheistic religions. I care little for your excuses. Can you please look at the hypothetical situation and respond?
Your hypothetical is true, which is why I think any religion that suggests they are the only way is problematic. Your original example however was useless, which, for the fourth of fifth time is all I was pointing out, is false as it doesn't represent Islam. As for excuses, you still refuse to admit you don't understand eh?
EDIT: The persecution of Coptic Christians is not done by a small segment of the population. The military itself, the largest peacekeeping force in Egypt is ruthless in its reaction to Coptic protests. You cannot ignore this and say that these are extremists. This is the 'no true Scotsman' argument where you say that these people aren't real Muslims because real Muslims would never assault Christians and try to kill them.
Cultural/tribal things do happen. However, you said, THE RELIGION, and the religion endorses no such thing, much the opposite in fact. You will note that Christians are not persecuted everywhere that there are muslim majorities. And the Egyptian military, surely you know they pick on whoever can't fight back right? It's not religious, they are thugs.
Because we like to Ignore Sudan and the religious ongoing war there, don't we?
I'd never ignore Sudan. However, suggest that the problem in Sudan are because of religious intolerance shows you don't understand much about the situation in Sudan. It's a tad more complicated than that.
(+) Because we like to ignore the religious cleansing in Iraq where Assyrian Christians were persecuted away from their homes for being Christians. These refugees fled the larger cities and away from organized semi-militarized Islamist gangs.
Iraq? Iraq has gone tribal. Anyone not in the right tribe is in trouble. It's not about religion per se. It's certainly not authorized by the Islamic religion.
You DO NOT want me to get started with Lebanon and the southern army, the interference of Syria and Israel and the whole mess there.
You would of course be foolish not to understand that Syria is being expansionist, it isn't about religion for the government.
Christian, Sunni and Shiite militias going at each other's throats with Syria and Israel supporting some party and enabling it to slaughter civilians.
Well that shows its not muslims persecuting people for not believing in Allah then doesn't it? And it puts Christians in the same camp. Good example to shoot yourself down with.
You cannot ignore this and say that Islam is a religion of peace
Strawman. I never said that, and it isn't the subject of this thread.
and reveres Christians as equals, or as people that could reach heaven.
I never said review, stop making stuff up. As for making it into heaven, well Mohamed said it and he knows more about their religion than you do.
so its part of the STOP doing it, I am not bigoted.
You are bigoted. You are the worst kind of bigot because you should know better. You are an embarrassment. You sound like middle age Christians who made up stories about Jews, like us grinding up little virgin christian babies to make matzah, something that we still reflect on during our Sedars. Jews are all rich bankers right? Or do we all sell diamonds and are ordered by our religion to lie to now Jews?
I have no idea why the mods allow your bigoted crap. You can not point at a couple situations and brand and entire religion, and hundreds of millions of followers, based on that.
I am informed of the atrocities done in the region for the sake of religion.
Yes, just like those Muslims are informed that people like you are out to get them and that you want to destroy their religion and all muslims and thus blowing shit up is an act of self defense, the only excuse to fight other nations in Islam. YOU are the problem as much as they are, YOU are hateful, YOU spread lies and hate, YOU incite violence.
You claim religion isn't the reason for those conflicts. You list: -Tribal/Cultural Conflict -Expansionist nations allowing citizens of another nation to slaughter each other for their own goals. -Christians, Sunni and Shiite militias attacked both each other and civilian population. It means that anyone can take up a sword and a banner of his faith and march into battle. . You said that in the eyes of Muslims, Jews and Christians will not suffer hell if they had followed the creeds of their own faith properly. . I am a teen Israeli, son of immigrants. I have Jewish ancestry, yet I denounce my faith. . I dislike religion. I dislike Islam and I dislike the Moazin. I don't know what they speak of inside of the mosque. I assume the imam reads from the Quaran and reads his interpretation of the verses and how they may be used in their lives. Even week in Friday, afternoon, almost all of the Muslim mem get together for a prayer. Once it is over, hell usually breaks loose. I have heard and seen gatherings of Muslims after the Friday afternoon prayer sometimes band together. They went out to lynch others. They went out to preform arson or throw rocks at passerby's. They would go out on a violent protest. I don;t know what they are being told there. But whenever I am at my grandmother's house and I hear the moazin, my heart skips a beat.
TheIronRuler: I am a teen Israeli, son of immigrants. I have Jewish ancestry, yet I denounce my faith.
I on the other hand am happy for you and your choice. There are plenty of secular Jews who are just fine and just because some consider "Jewish" to be necessarily both a cultural/ethnic and a religious identity, there's no reason why that particular opinion should dictate your life. If it worked like that with Christianity, I'd be a Catholic despite being an Atheist for crying out loud.
Assuming your going by Sunni Islam, unlike Catholicism there isn't one person who official does speak for Islam, so everybody's interpretation is subject to being the possible interpretation of Islam.
I am a teen Israeli, son of immigrants. I have Jewish ancestry, yet I denounce my faith.
Then I feel very sorry for you.
And its clear you can't see past your hatred so I'll let this conversation go.
. Yes, of course. A person that knows what he is talking about and sees hatred fueled by religious frenzy a few minutes way from his home. I don't really know what these people are because I don't know any.... right? But I do. You see before you a man that knows of your faith. The faith that had been used to kill thousands indiscriminately over the years. Why do you want to stop speaking with me? Can you not lie any longer because I see through your lies?
Disclaimer: The following does not apply to all religions, or even all believers of a particular religion. I know this, and you don't need to remind me. I'm addressing a particular argument that SOME religious people use.
I just had a realization. We're forum users on the Internet, and many of us have been on the net long enough to know that when a popup comes up for a program you haven't installed saying "YOUR COMPUTER IS INFECTED! CLICK THIS LINK!", most of us know not to click the link and then to figure out if that was just an ad or if we really are infected.
However, the same people who won't fall for that make threads and posts here and on other sites amounting to "YOU ARE GOING TO HELL IF YOU DON'T ACCEPT JESUS!" and not only that, but they defend it by saying "Yeah, we don't have any proof except for this book. You'll just have to take our word for it that what we say is true and this book really is the word of God."
Now, if someone ever uses scare tactics on me and then the only way they can back it up is to tell me to just take their word for it, I know that if I do whatever they're suggesting, then I have committed an act of extreme stupidity. Many others on the net also know this, and yet they still believe the whole saved thing.
I don't know how many here believe that nonbelievers are going to hell, but I do know of one regular poster here who thinks they don't get into heaven, and though I rarely agree with him I have a lot of respect for his intelligence and would be very surprised if he fell for a scare scam, so there's at least one person here that is not part of the choir I'm preaching to.
What I want to know is how you reconcile being skeptical enough to not fall for scare scams with taking the claims of religions that use the same tactics at face value.