Im probably going to misspeak on my main point but bear with me. So i make a habit of every blue moon perusing(read trolling) white nationalist websites just to keep my finger on the pulse of that particularly interesting group of people. Im black BTW in case you are wondering. In my time of doing this (ive been doing this for years now) Ive come to appreciate the basic purpose of white nationalism. It is basically about survival and improving the lot of their people. This is much more relevant than many think about. Although the media would tell you otherwise, the face of poverty in America is very much a pale one, yet the general pulse of the nation does not recognize that. This is because of many reasons that will likely come up later.
So despite the fact that I know that the typical white nationalist is half crazy/retarded, i cant help but feel pity for them. They remind me of the bad kid in class who is poorly socialized so they act out their social frustrations in class making them a pariah, leading to further problems.
The problem with white nationalism (unlike most other racial progress movements in America) is that the core defining element of their movement (and their biggest recruiting tool as far as i can tell) are hate and fear. Hatred for those they feel hurt them and those who are not like them. Fear of "losing" the country to minorities and foreigners. (the recent thread on Norway sparked this thought process.) This stems from their doctrine which believes in (either implicitly or blatantly) in natural racial superiority. To the point where they claim that blacks are naturally less intelligent and prone to crime, that Mexicans are sub human, Jews are all thieves... you know the routine.
Obviously this movement will never see mainstream traction as very few are far enough into the fringes of society to be associated with such a thing. The historical precedence of these groups pretty much tells us how this story ends. Many have compared the New Black Panther party to the KKK which is a fair comparison on some levels, however I doubt the NBPP has nearly as large of a body count in their time period.
However, the people who are most attracted to these groups (marginalized/disfranchised whites) are also REALLY the ones with the power to make sweeping change in this country. But they cant swallow the venom of their spleen long enough to make something positive happen and would rather fan flames than objectively look at what is really going on in society. Still with the state the country is in today, is there finally enough going on to separate organized and disenfranchised whites from burning crosses and pitch forks? Is there a way to motivate disenfranchised white Americans without using race baiting and hatred as the catalyst?
I'm pretty sure unions were historically the main base of power for working class whites. That and specific ethnic mafias (which may fall into the race baiting). Regardless, both are a lot less prevalent. Don't see why private sector unions can't make a come back, other than politics getting in the way.
I still don't get their problem with Jews. I mean I know that the U.S. and pretty much all Western countries have a rich history of Antisemitism, but Jews have generally been considered "white" for decades now.
Dags90: I still don't get their problem with Jews. I mean I know that the U.S. and pretty much all Western countries have a rich history of Antisemitism, but Jews have generally been considered "white" for decades now.
"White" is plenty vague, but I think it's iffy to use it to refer to people that come from the middle east and have a completely different history and culture from all European nations.
feeqmatic: Im probably going to misspeak on my main point but bear with me. So i make a habit of every blue moon perusing(read trolling) white nationalist websites just to keep my finger on the pulse of that particularly interesting group of people.
Why, honestly why would you antagonize them? Are you trying to feed their prejudice?
feeqmatic: Im black BTW in case you are wondering. In my time of doing this (ive been doing this for years now) Ive come to appreciate the basic purpose of white nationalism. It is basically about survival and improving the lot of their people. This is much more relevant than many think about. Although the media would tell you otherwise, the face of poverty in America is very much a pale one, yet the general pulse of the nation does not recognize that. This is because of many reasons that will likely come up later.
Yep, I guess I'll give them that, they are trying to help out their "own".
feeqmatic: So despite the fact that I know that the typical white nationalist is half crazy/retarded, i cant help but feel pity for them. They remind me of the bad kid in class who is poorly socialized so they act out their social frustrations in class making them a pariah, leading to further problems.
The problem with white nationalism (unlike most other racial progress movements in America) is that the core defining element of their movement (and their biggest recruiting tool as far as i can tell) are hate and fear. Hatred for those they feel hurt them and those who are not like them. Fear of "losing" the country to minorities and foreigners. (the recent thread on Norway sparked this thought process.) This stems from their doctrine which believes in (either implicitly or blatantly) in natural racial superiority. To the point where they claim that blacks are naturally less intelligent and prone to crime, that Mexicans are sub human, Jews are all thieves... you know the routine.
I think some people actually are driven to these kinds of groups because they feel that no other moderate group will help them out. Immigration being a case in point, I remember reading that the KKK had a serge in members because people felt fustrated with the rise of illegal immigrants and felt that the government wasn't doing enough to help. Same goes for the BNP, if you look at some of their videos on Youtube(I saw one debate where the head guy was there), you'll see that a great deal of comments go along the lines of "I hate everything the BNP stands for but they are the only politic group that seems to be willing to take on the issue of Border control and regulating immigration". I blame the UK government for making its citizens feel that the BNP is their only choice in looking for a political group that will touch on the immigration issue.
feeqmatic: Obviously this movement will never see mainstream traction as very few are far enough into the fringes of society to be associated with such a thing. The historical precedence of these groups pretty much tells us how this story ends. Many have compared the New Black Panther party to the KKK which is a fair comparison on some levels, however I doubt the NBPP has nearly as large of a body count in their time period.
Their numbers don't matter, both groups are a bunch of ignorant bigots. Also, if you really want to compare the KKK to somebody, you're better off comparing them to The Nation of Islam(A group that hates White people AND Jews!).
feeqmatic: However, the people who are most attracted to these groups (marginalized/disfranchised whites) are also REALLY the ones with the power to make sweeping change in this country. But they cant swallow the venom of their spleen long enough to make something positive happen and would rather fan flames than objectively look at what is really going on in society. Still with the state the country is in today, is there finally enough going on to separate organized and disenfranchised whites from burning crosses and pitch forks? Is there a way to motivate disenfranchised white Americans without using race baiting and hatred as the catalyst?
I think its hard for impoverished whites to have the government improve their situation, because one example that comes to mind is a college scholarship that was created a few years back that was only for low income whites, and the general reaction to such a thing was not met with kindness.
Dags90: I still don't get their problem with Jews. I mean I know that the U.S. and pretty much all Western countries have a rich history of Antisemitism, but Jews have generally been considered "white" for decades now.
"White" is plenty vague, but I think it's iffy to use it to refer to people that come from the middle east and have a completely different history and culture from all European nations.
Agreed, I don't think that European-Americans and Europeans have the same ideas/goals/ect.
Cakes: "White" is plenty vague, but I think it's iffy to use it to refer to people that come from the middle east and have a completely different history and culture from all European nations.
I don't know about Canada, but where I live (the New York Metro Area) the overwhelming preponderance of our Jews are Ashkenazi. They very much share history and culture with Europeans. Yiddish is a Germanic language. Their settling in Europe predates my ancestors' arrival to the U.S. by nearly a millennium.
Their rise in America from disenfranchised working class minority to part of middle class America has several parallels with that of Irish or Italian immigrants who faced similar discrimination in Industrial America.
Cakes: "White" is plenty vague, but I think it's iffy to use it to refer to people that come from the middle east and have a completely different history and culture from all European nations.
I don't know about Canada, but where I live (the New York Metro Area) the overwhelming preponderance of our Jews are Ashkenazi. They very much share history and culture with Europeans. Yiddish is a Germanic language. Their settling in Europe predates my ancestors' arrival to the U.S. by nearly a millennium.
Their rise in America from disenfranchised working class minority to part of middle class America has several parallels with that of Irish or Italian immigrants who faced similar discrimination in Industrial America.
Unless your telling me that Middle Eastern people are white, I really hope your not saying that Jews are white, because we're not, we are not part of the native ethnic groups in Europe. We are Semitic(or West Asian if you want to get technical). Hence the term when describing something as anti-Jewish as anti-Semitic.
Dags90: I don't know about Canada, but where I live (the New York Metro Area) the overwhelming preponderance of our Jews are Ashkenazi. They very much share history and culture with Europeans. Yiddish is a Germanic language. Their settling in Europe predates my ancestors' arrival to the U.S. by nearly a millennium.
Ashkenazim come from the same place as Sefardim, and I'm not sure they shared so much in the culture of the nations in which they were in galus (exile) so as to be considered near-identical to their Gentile counterparts. I mean, for one thing, they all considered themselves to be in galus, and they had nearly insular communities. I could certainly be wrong though, I'm not really any kind of expert on shtetl culture.
As far as Jews who've lost any cultural distinctiveness go...they might as well be called White I guess, but their ethnic background is still different.
Volf: Unless your telling me that Middle Eastern people are white, I really hope your not saying that Jews are white, because we're not, we are not part of the native ethnic groups in Europe. We are Semitic(or West Asian if you want to get technical). Hence the term when describing something as anti-Jewish as anti-Semitic.
Surely the actual ethnicity is irrelevant, is the perception by society?
Likewise, "white" in the US seems to be different from "white" where I live.
feeqmatic: Im probably going to misspeak on my main point but bear with me. So i make a habit of every blue moon perusing(read trolling) white nationalist websites just to keep my finger on the pulse of that particularly interesting group of people. Im black BTW in case you are wondering. In my time of doing this (ive been doing this for years now) Ive come to appreciate the basic purpose of white nationalism. It is basically about survival and improving the lot of their people. This is much more relevant than many think about. Although the media would tell you otherwise, the face of poverty in America is very much a pale one, yet the general pulse of the nation does not recognize that. This is because of many reasons that will likely come up later.
So despite the fact that I know that the typical white nationalist is half crazy/retarded, i cant help but feel pity for them. They remind me of the bad kid in class who is poorly socialized so they act out their social frustrations in class making them a pariah, leading to further problems.
The problem with white nationalism (unlike most other racial progress movements in America) is that the core defining element of their movement (and their biggest recruiting tool as far as i can tell) are hate and fear. Hatred for those they feel hurt them and those who are not like them. Fear of "losing" the country to minorities and foreigners. (the recent thread on Norway sparked this thought process.) This stems from their doctrine which believes in (either implicitly or blatantly) in natural racial superiority. To the point where they claim that blacks are naturally less intelligent and prone to crime, that Mexicans are sub human, Jews are all thieves... you know the routine.
Obviously this movement will never see mainstream traction as very few are far enough into the fringes of society to be associated with such a thing. The historical precedence of these groups pretty much tells us how this story ends. Many have compared the New Black Panther party to the KKK which is a fair comparison on some levels, however I doubt the NBPP has nearly as large of a body count in their time period.
However, the people who are most attracted to these groups (marginalized/disfranchised whites) are also REALLY the ones with the power to make sweeping change in this country. But they cant swallow the venom of their spleen long enough to make something positive happen and would rather fan flames than objectively look at what is really going on in society. Still with the state the country is in today, is there finally enough going on to separate organized and disenfranchised whites from burning crosses and pitch forks? Is there a way to motivate disenfranchised white Americans without using race baiting and hatred as the catalyst?
Isn't nationalism always about fear or hatred? Nazism was about hatred, North Korean nationalism was fueled by hatred, Chinese nationalism, well, initially fueled by hatred towards the intellectuals and rich (communist revolution),etc. And isn't it the same with other similar movements? Gay prides, isn't it about fear? Fear of being hated and rejected. Nationalism serves as a tool to make people more confident about themselves or feel better, this is either fueled by fear (need confidence) or hatred ( need confirmation of your "betterness")
In the case of hate it is obviously wrong but when it comes to fear as fuel it can sometimes help a lot. Just look at all these "look at me, i'm special" movements. In Europe right now nationalism is rising due to fear and hatred. This is dangerous and the problem is that fear usually evolves to hatred if not treated, hence why nationalism should rise up in Europe. This way we can solve our issues with moderation, because if the fear becomes fully hatred it won't be with moderation and the collateral damage will be enormous.
Volf: Unless your telling me that Middle Eastern people are white, I really hope your not saying that Jews are white, because we're not, we are not part of the native ethnic groups in Europe. We are Semitic(or West Asian if you want to get technical). Hence the term when describing something as anti-Jewish as anti-Semitic.
Surely the actual ethnicity is irrelevant, is the perception by society?
Likewise, "white" in the US seems to be different from "white" where I live.
No, its not. I don't appreciate other people[1] talking down to me about my ethnic identity. It gets really old really fast. Ethnic-Jews being Semitic isn't subject to a persons opinion anymore than the sky being blue is subject to opinion.
White in the US refers to ethnic Europeans, and another name for White Americans is European American(though that term is rarely used). What is your idea of White?
[1] I'm not referring to you, just people I have met in the past
Volf: No, its not. I don't appreciate other people[1] talking down to me about my ethnic identity. It gets really old really fast. Ethnic-Jews being Semitic isn't subject to a persons opinion anymore than the sky being blue is subject to opinion.
White in the US refers to ethnic Europeans, and another name for White Americans is European American(though that term is rarely used). What is your idea of White?
Well, it's hard to pin down. I'd generally say that Jews are considered white, likewise what would be considered Hispanic in the US.
A local news report of a crime might mention the ethnicity of the criminal if they were "of Middle Eastern appearance" or Indian or Asian, but that probably wouldn't be mentioned if they were Jewish, because the Jews aren't a group of "them".
On the other hand, "black" isn't such a thing, it's seperated into people with African ancestry and aborigines.
[1] I'm not referring to you, just people I have met in the past
Well, it's hard to pin down. I'd generally say that Jews are considered white, likewise what would be considered Hispanic in the US.
A local news report of a crime might mention the ethnicity of the criminal if they were "of Middle Eastern appearance" or Indian or Asian, but that probably wouldn't be mentioned if they were Jewish, because the Jews aren't a group of "them".
On the other hand, "black" isn't such a thing, it's seperated into people with African ancestry and aborigines.
Ah, this reminded me of that Morgan Freeman interview where he's being asked about black history month and the interviewer is getting heat. When Mr. Freeman "Why don't we have a white history month?" the interviewer says "I'm not white, I'm Jewish!"
Volf: No, its not. I don't appreciate other people[1] talking down to me about my ethnic identity. It gets really old really fast. Ethnic-Jews being Semitic isn't subject to a persons opinion anymore than the sky being blue is subject to opinion.
White in the US refers to ethnic Europeans, and another name for White Americans is European American(though that term is rarely used). What is your idea of White?
Well, it's hard to pin down. I'd generally say that Jews are considered white, likewise what would be considered Hispanic in the US.
A local news report of a crime might mention the ethnicity of the criminal if they were "of Middle Eastern appearance" or Indian or Asian, but that probably wouldn't be mentioned if they were Jewish, because the Jews aren't a group of "them".
On the other hand, "black" isn't such a thing, it's seperated into people with African ancestry and aborigines.
Jews are a form of Middle Eastern people(Semitic), I can't make that more clear. Just because they were in forced exile doesn't change were they originate from. Case in point, Israel is located in West Asia, not in Europe.
As for Hispanic, I know that there are people who have mixed heritage in places like central/south America, but when I think of Hispanic I think of the pre-Spanish/Portuguese indigenous people like the Mayans and Incas, certainly not a group of White people.
EDIT:Sorry if I'm coming off as harsh or like a jerk, its not my intent.
[1] I'm not referring to you, just people I have met in the past
Volf: Jews are a form of Middle Eastern people(Semitic), I can't make that more clear. Just because they were in forced exile doesn't change were they originate from. Case in point, Israel is located in West Asia, not in Europe.
I'm not disputing that, I'm just saying it's not relevant. I am not saying Jews are considered a European ethnicity, I'm saying they are (speaking generally and only in regards to where I live) considered part of the artificial construct that is the "white race".
Volf: As for Hispanic, I know that there are people who have mixed heritage in places like central/south America, but when I think of Hispanic I think of the pre-Spanish/Portuguese indigenous people like the Mayans and Incas, certainly not a group of White people.
I meant people from the Iberian peninsula, which are counted as Hispanic under some defintions, but there are various conflicting definitions, yeah.
Volf: It gets really old really fast. Ethnic-Jews being Semitic isn't subject to a persons opinion anymore than the sky being blue is subject to opinion.
The degree to which gene flow (both inward and outward) has affected Jewish populations in Europe is a matter which has yet to be resolved by science. The amount of gene flow may be substantial[1], particularly among Ashkenazi Jews.
Volf: Jews are a form of Middle Eastern people(Semitic), I can't make that more clear. Just because they were in forced exile doesn't change were they originate from. Case in point, Israel is located in West Asia, not in Europe.
I'm not disputing that, I'm just saying it's not relevant. I am not saying Jews are considered a European ethnicity, I'm saying they are (speaking generally and only in regards to where I live) considered part of the artificial construct that is the "white race".
Volf: As for Hispanic, I know that there are people who have mixed heritage in places like central/south America, but when I think of Hispanic I think of the pre-Spanish/Portuguese indigenous people like the Mayans and Incas, certainly not a group of White people.
I meant people from the Iberian peninsula, which are counted as Hispanic under some defintions, but there are various conflicting definitions, yeah.
and I'm telling you that Jews are not part of the White race anymore than Palestinians are.
Volf: It gets really old really fast. Ethnic-Jews being Semitic isn't subject to a persons opinion anymore than the sky being blue is subject to opinion.
The degree to which gene flow (both inward and outward) has affected Jewish populations in Europe is a matter which has yet to be resolved by science. The amount of gene flow may be substantial[1], particularly among Ashkenazi Jews.
OK so some people are like me(a mut), it doesn't change our origin. The African American community has some traces of European ancestry do to slavery, but nobody is about to claim that they are White.
Volf: and I'm telling you that Jews are not part of the White race anymore than Palestinians are.
That might be true of how the word is used where you live, but it doesn't seem to be the case wher eI live.
Again I know that some people consider the Middle East white, which is fine because then Jews are white. However, if you don't consider the Middle East white, then Jews are not white. I know when my grandparents were growing up in Poland, the polish people didn't think of them as white.
Volf: and I'm telling you that Jews are not part of the White race anymore than Palestinians are.
That might be true of how the word is used where you live, but it doesn't seem to be the case wher eI live.
Again I know that some people consider the Middle East white, which is fine because then Jews are white. However, if you don't consider the Middle East white, then Jews are not white. I know when my grandparents were growing up in Poland, the polish people didn't think of them as white.
Well, there's that, but mostly I think it's that race (as opposed to genetics) is something people like playing fast and loose with. It's not something that's likely to make too much sense.
That might be true of how the word is used where you live, but it doesn't seem to be the case wher eI live.
Again I know that some people consider the Middle East white, which is fine because then Jews are white. However, if you don't consider the Middle East white, then Jews are not white. I know when my grandparents were growing up in Poland, the polish people didn't think of them as white.
Well, there's that, but mostly I think it's that race (as opposed to genetics) is something people like playing fast and loose with. It's not something that's likely to make too much sense.
feeqmatic: Im probably going to misspeak on my main point but bear with me. So i make a habit of every blue moon perusing(read trolling) white nationalist websites just to keep my finger on the pulse of that particularly interesting group of people. Im black BTW in case you are wondering. In my time of doing this (ive been doing this for years now) Ive come to appreciate the basic purpose of white nationalism. It is basically about survival and improving the lot of their people. This is much more relevant than many think about. Although the media would tell you otherwise, the face of poverty in America is very much a pale one, yet the general pulse of the nation does not recognize that. This is because of many reasons that will likely come up later.
So despite the fact that I know that the typical white nationalist is half crazy/retarded, i cant help but feel pity for them. They remind me of the bad kid in class who is poorly socialized so they act out their social frustrations in class making them a pariah, leading to further problems.
The problem with white nationalism (unlike most other racial progress movements in America) is that the core defining element of their movement (and their biggest recruiting tool as far as i can tell) are hate and fear. Hatred for those they feel hurt them and those who are not like them. Fear of "losing" the country to minorities and foreigners. (the recent thread on Norway sparked this thought process.) This stems from their doctrine which believes in (either implicitly or blatantly) in natural racial superiority. To the point where they claim that blacks are naturally less intelligent and prone to crime, that Mexicans are sub human, Jews are all thieves... you know the routine.
Obviously this movement will never see mainstream traction as very few are far enough into the fringes of society to be associated with such a thing. The historical precedence of these groups pretty much tells us how this story ends. Many have compared the New Black Panther party to the KKK which is a fair comparison on some levels, however I doubt the NBPP has nearly as large of a body count in their time period.
However, the people who are most attracted to these groups (marginalized/disfranchised whites) are also REALLY the ones with the power to make sweeping change in this country. But they cant swallow the venom of their spleen long enough to make something positive happen and would rather fan flames than objectively look at what is really going on in society. Still with the state the country is in today, is there finally enough going on to separate organized and disenfranchised whites from burning crosses and pitch forks? Is there a way to motivate disenfranchised white Americans without using race baiting and hatred as the catalyst?
Isn't nationalism always about fear or hatred? Nazism was about hatred, North Korean nationalism was fueled by hatred, Chinese nationalism, well, initially fueled by hatred towards the intellectuals and rich (communist revolution),etc. And isn't it the same with other similar movements? Gay prides, isn't it about fear? Fear of being hated and rejected. Nationalism serves as a tool to make people more confident about themselves or feel better, this is either fueled by fear (need confidence) or hatred ( need confirmation of your "betterness")
In the case of hate it is obviously wrong but when it comes to fear as fuel it can sometimes help a lot. Just look at all these "look at me, i'm special" movements. In Europe right now nationalism is rising due to fear and hatred. This is dangerous and the problem is that fear usually evolves to hatred if not treated, hence why nationalism should rise up in Europe. This way we can solve our issues with moderation, because if the fear becomes fully hatred it won't be with moderation and the collateral damage will be enormous.
That is kind of my point. Maybe nationalism is the wrong word, but my question is can we find a way to motivate and move around 30% of white Americas without using scare tactics and race baiting familiar to White Nationalism. Why cant they just look around at their situation see that it is obviously bigger than black and white?
feeqmatic: Can White nationalism ever separate itself from White supremacy?
In a word: No. Because they have always been one and the same.
In my time of doing this (ive been doing this for years now) Ive come to appreciate the basic purpose of white nationalism. It is basically about survival and improving the lot of their people.
I hope when you wrote this you meant "appreciate" as in "understand", not as in "like or agree with".
Because I find the notion that whites are "a people" whose collective lot needs improvement to be utterly repugnant.
I've always been suspect of the notion that race leads to identity, though at least in the case of racial minorities in the US who have suffered discrimination there is at least a little shared experience to build an identity around. But to propose that a random black person from an upper-class family in Washington, DC, an impoverished Haitian and a rural Kenyan laborer all have a shared common experience simply on the basis of their skin color is a notion I reject. It's even more dubious when one tries to propose a white identity. When I've traveled abroad, I find I have less in common with the white Americans that I meet than I do with most other people. Who are "my people"? I'm the child of German/English lineage but almost completely divorced from either cultural heritage who grew up in the suburbs of a small bible-belt city. If I meet a white Italian American from the Bronx am I supposed to have had a shared experience with this person just because I'm white? Or do you think I'll have more in common with a random white person from Germany. Because in my experience neither is true.
This is why white nationalism is and has always been bullshit. I don't have anything in common with someone just because I'm white. And personally, I'm more than happy to breed an end of whiteness to my branch of the family tree.
The problem with white nationalism (unlike most other racial progress movements in America) is that the core defining element of their movement (and their biggest recruiting tool as far as i can tell) are hate and fear.
Volf: and I'm telling you that Jews are not part of the White race anymore than Palestinians are.
That might be true of how the word is used where you live, but it doesn't seem to be the case wher eI live.
Again I know that some people consider the Middle East white, which is fine because then Jews are white. However, if you don't consider the Middle East white, then Jews are not white. I know when my grandparents were growing up in Poland, the polish people didn't think of them as white.
"Middle Eastern" is not a single race.
Jewishness is a funny category that defies categorization. But to say Jews are not white is just absurd. Some Jews are white. Some Jews are Semitic. Some Jews are even Arabs. Some Jews are Hispanic. Some Jews are even Asian.
Jon Stewart is probably one of the most well-known "Jewish entertainer" (meaning he is an entertainer well-known for being Jewish, as opposed to a well-known entertainer who happens to be Jewish but whose Jewishness is not well-known) of our day. It's pretty clear he identifies himself as a Jew. The relevant exchange begins at about 3:07.
Larry: Well have fun lil'brother. Especially humoring all your white friends. Christ, that is exhausting! Jon: Wait... you... you... humor us? Larry: No, not you Jon (laughs), of course not. (looks at the camera) God, I'm tired.
(Underlining mine)
Now you might say that this is a matter of perception, and the fact that Jon Stewart apparently sees himself as white has no bearing on whether or not he is actually white. But this is a comedy bit, and comedy works only when the audience understands what's being communicated. This bit could not work unless not only Jon, but the overwhelming majority of his audience not only considered Jon as white (even while knowing he is a Jew), but accepted his whiteness without even needing to think about it.
Now not all Jews are white. The Jews are a diverse community. But clearly some of them can be.
No, I think your confused. I am not referring to the religion, I am referring to the ethnic group. As I said before, ethnic Jews are Semitic. However, in regards to religious Jews, Kendarik is proof that there are some white people who have converted to Judaism and are religious Jews. For me though, I'm an ethnic Jew.
No, I think your confused. I am not referring to the religion, I am referring to the ethnic group. As I said before, ethnic Jews are Semitic. However, in regards to religious Jews, Kendarik is proof that there are some white people who have converted to Judaism and are religious Jews. For me though, I'm an ethnic Jew.
I understand your point. I am saying your point is incorrect. Once, over 2000 years ago, the Jewish people were a single ethnicity. In the time since there has been much mixing, as has been the case of nearly all ethnicities. If the Jewish people were a single ethnic group, then words like Ashkenazi Jews, Sephardi Jews and Kaifeng Jews would have no meaning.
Volf: Unless your telling me that Middle Eastern people are white, I really hope your not saying that Jews are white, because we're not, we are not part of the native ethnic groups in Europe. We are Semitic(or West Asian if you want to get technical). Hence the term when describing something as anti-Jewish as anti-Semitic.
Not that I disagree with you, but I do want to point out that white Jews do exist, and i'm one of them. My mother was a convert and my father's ancestry has always been fairly murky. Judaism's existence as a religious and cultural identity (along with a higher degree of intermarriage in the U.S.) also muddies the waters a bit, i think, although i'm coming at this from a Reform perspective. Conservative and Orthodox Jews i imagine are quite a bit more ethnically distinct.
EDIT: Whoops you covered this already. Please disregard.
generals3: Isn't nationalism always about fear or hatred? Nazism was about hatred, North Korean nationalism was fueled by hatred, Chinese nationalism, well, initially fueled by hatred towards the intellectuals and rich (communist revolution),etc. And isn't it the same with other similar movements? Gay prides, isn't it about fear? Fear of being hated and rejected. Nationalism serves as a tool to make people more confident about themselves or feel better, this is either fueled by fear (need confidence) or hatred ( need confirmation of your "betterness")
In the case of hate it is obviously wrong but when it comes to fear as fuel it can sometimes help a lot. Just look at all these "look at me, i'm special" movements. In Europe right now nationalism is rising due to fear and hatred. This is dangerous and the problem is that fear usually evolves to hatred if not treated, hence why nationalism should rise up in Europe. This way we can solve our issues with moderation, because if the fear becomes fully hatred it won't be with moderation and the collateral damage will be enormous.
Nationalism typically results from a people's desire for self-determination, which i guess you could characterize as hatred for the status quo. But gay pride? I don't see how you can attribute that to hatred or fear. Homosexuals are an invisible minority, when they fear hate and rejection they have the option of trying to pass as hetero. i don't see why flamboyant public appearances would ever enter the picture if that were the case. Gay pride is more about the assertion that gay people exist and there's nothing particularly wrong with that.
I have to disagree with you on the idea of racial identity being completely invalid. Maybe on a world scale i can agree, but in America, race is much more prevalent as a factor of identity. I cant speak wholeheartedly for whites (and from what i have observed this is not nearly as true for them) but I definitely recognize a unique set of cultural norms, experiences, habits, etc that are common for many blacks. There is a reason why black people congregate amongst themselves as much as they can. It is not because we hate whites or others, it is because we find the comfort and familiarity of our own people... comforting and familiar. That is greatly based of a shared identity.
You are right in recognizing that African immigrants and African Americans lack this bond for the most part. However, by the second generation (in most cases) African (black) immigrants will usually find their place among "black" culture.
I think the same is true for some whites as well. I do not agree with white nationalism, but i semi understand the plight of a certain unheralded section of white America that is basically ignored on all fronts. I do believe that those individuals also recognize a sense of racial identity. The problem is that much of that identity seems to be closely related to problematic elements of other races.
No, I think your confused. I am not referring to the religion, I am referring to the ethnic group. As I said before, ethnic Jews are Semitic. However, in regards to religious Jews, Kendarik is proof that there are some white people who have converted to Judaism and are religious Jews. For me though, I'm an ethnic Jew.
I understand your point. I am saying your point is incorrect. Once, over 2000 years ago, the Jewish people were a single ethnicity. In the time since there has been much mixing, as has been the case of nearly all ethnicities. If the Jewish people were a single ethnic group, then words like Ashkenazi Jews, Sephardi Jews and Kaifeng Jews would have no meaning.
I go back to my comment about Black America, in regards to those who's family comes from slaves, a fair number of them have some European ancestry. However I don't think that most Americans are going to call Black Americans something other than Black or African American. The same goes for Jews, yes there has been some mixing, but we are an ethnic group. In fact if memory serves me right, the reason why Jews have a higher chance of tay sachs than most other group, is because in the past Jews choose to keep it in-house rather than be with other people.
Side note, last I checked, the case is still out on Kaifeng Jews. I don't know if they're anything other than a bunch of religious converts.
I have to disagree with you on the idea of racial identity being completely invalid. Maybe on a world scale i can agree, but in America, race is much more prevalent as a factor of identity. I cant speak wholeheartedly for whites (and from what i have observed this is not nearly as true for them) but I definitely recognize a unique set of cultural norms, experiences, habits, etc that are common for many blacks. There is a reason why black people congregate amongst themselves as much as they can. It is not because we hate whites or others, it is because we find the comfort and familiarity of our own people... comforting and familiar. That is greatly based of a shared identity.
But that's not because of RACE. That is because the experience of being black in America unites black people. The uniting factor is not that black people in America have black skin, it's that they have a common cultural experience of dealing with racial expectations and discrimination that comes from having black skin.
Look at England. The nature of being black in England seems quite different to being black in the US. Black English people don't exhibit the same behavior as black people in the US do. There isn't a distinct "black British English" that black Brits speak in the same way that black people in the US are associated with a unique dialect. I'm reminded of a story of a British pop group from IIRC the 80s- they were a generic pop group that just happened to have black and white members in the same group, and in England this was no big deal. They got big enough to make a go out of performing in the US, and had to completely change their roster because they were told in the US no one would accept blacks and whites in the same group (and growing up at that time, I can remember when this was kinda true.) Why is the experience of being black in the two countries so different? Well, England banned slavery way before we did. And while Brits are every bit as capable of racism as Americans are, most Brits in my experience don't have the time or energy to manage anything more than a sort of petty passive-aggressive dismissive sort of racism spoken in a whisper with a hand over the mouth over tea. Dressing up in white pajamas and lighting a cross on fire on someone's lawn, well, that's all just a bit much in'nit?
So what I'm saying is that the black experience in the US is only tangentially related to race- it has everything to do with a cultural environment that encourages the black community for form its own racial identity. There is no genome on the chromosome responsible for melanin production that makes people like Tyler Perry movies. That has to be learned.
I think the same is true for some whites as well. I do not agree with white nationalism, but i semi understand the plight of a certain unheralded section of white America that is basically ignored on all fronts. I do believe that those individuals also recognize a sense of racial identity. The problem is that much of that identity seems to be closely related to problematic elements of other races.
Well, speaking as someone who is white and who grew up in a lower-middle class home in the lower-middle class side of town and who went to nearly all-white schools with quite a lot of people who didn't make it up to the "middle" part of "lower-middle class", I disagree. Yes, there are many white Americans living in poverty. That does not create a common cultural experience. The claim that whites have a common identity is a falsehood constructed by angry racists who want to believe that we can be united in our whiteness as a part of their crusade against everyone else in the world. There is no common white experience. I remember being in elementary school and playing with white kids. I have distinct memories of a time when I was too young to even comprehend racial politics, too young to understand class issues, so young that I had up to that point only met a couple of people who were not of my race. And yet I remember distinctly being aware that for reasons I couldn't understand some of the white kids in my school did not act like me. We're talking first grade age here. I remember taking great pains to reduce my rural midwestern accent at that age so as not to speak like them.
Volf: I go back to my comment about Black America, in regards to those who's family comes from slaves, a fair number of them have some European ancestry. However I don't think that most Americans are going to call Black Americans something other than Black or African American.
That's because most African Americans still have features far more in common with black ethnicities than European ones, and because America has a rather unique and I would say very problematic relationship with American black identity that encourages isolation. To compare Jewish ethnic identity to American black identity is completely absurd.
Besides, you've completely ignored the evidence involving Jon Stewart. He's not a convert. His family name is freaking Leibowitz. If he thinks he's white, and we have evidence that shows the vast majority of his audience is white, he's white. I'm sorry if you don't like that. He's a white ethnic Jew. Get over it.
I have to disagree with you on the idea of racial identity being completely invalid. Maybe on a world scale i can agree, but in America, race is much more prevalent as a factor of identity. I cant speak wholeheartedly for whites (and from what i have observed this is not nearly as true for them) but I definitely recognize a unique set of cultural norms, experiences, habits, etc that are common for many blacks. There is a reason why black people congregate amongst themselves as much as they can. It is not because we hate whites or others, it is because we find the comfort and familiarity of our own people... comforting and familiar. That is greatly based of a shared identity.
But that's not because of RACE. That is because the experience of being black in America unites black people. The uniting factor is not that black people in America have black skin, it's that they have a common cultural experience of dealing with racial expectations and discrimination that comes from having black skin.
Look at England. The nature of being black in England seems quite different to being black in the US. Black English people don't exhibit the same behavior as black people in the US do. There isn't a distinct "black British English" that black Brits speak in the same way that black people in the US are associated with a unique dialect. I'm reminded of a story of a British pop group from IIRC the 80s- they were a generic pop group that just happened to have black and white members in the same group, and in England this was no big deal. They got big enough to make a go out of performing in the US, and had to completely change their roster because they were told in the US no one would accept blacks and whites in the same group (and growing up at that time, I can remember when this was kinda true.) Why is the experience of being black in the two countries so different? Well, England banned slavery way before we did. And while Brits are every bit as capable of racism as Americans are, most Brits in my experience don't have the time or energy to manage anything more than a sort of petty passive-aggressive dismissive sort of racism spoken in a whisper with a hand over the mouth over tea. Dressing up in white pajamas and lighting a cross on fire on someone's lawn, well, that's all just a bit much in'nit?
So what I'm saying is that the black experience in the US is only tangentially related to race- it has everything to do with a cultural environment that encourages the black community for form its own racial identity. There is no genome on the chromosome responsible for melanin production that makes people like Tyler Perry movies. That has to be learned.
I think the same is true for some whites as well. I do not agree with white nationalism, but i semi understand the plight of a certain unheralded section of white America that is basically ignored on all fronts. I do believe that those individuals also recognize a sense of racial identity. The problem is that much of that identity seems to be closely related to problematic elements of other races.
Well, speaking as someone who is white and who grew up in a lower-middle class home in the lower-middle class side of town and who went to nearly all-white schools with quite a lot of people who didn't make it up to the "middle" part of "lower-middle class", I disagree. Yes, there are many white Americans living in poverty. That does not create a common cultural experience. The claim that whites have a common identity is a falsehood constructed by angry racists who want to believe that we can be united in our whiteness as a part of their crusade against everyone else in the world. There is no common white experience. I remember being in elementary school and playing with white kids. I have distinct memories of a time when I was too young to even comprehend racial politics, too young to understand class issues, so young that I had up to that point only met a couple of people who were not of my race. And yet I remember distinctly being aware that for reasons I couldn't understand some of the white kids in my school did not act like me. We're talking first grade age here. I remember taking great pains to reduce my rural midwestern accent at that age so as not to speak like them.
Your assessment of Black American Identity is spot on, however i think were mostly talking semantics. It is not race, but the experience and cultural identity that is shared is directly connected to racial identity.
Your statement about your white experience and your critique on nationalism is profound...
Maybe the next step in social progress if for everyone to begin to recognize that their American racial experience is more unique than we often give credence to. I grew up in what at the time was a middle classed mixed suburb. My black single mother of 3 made more than some of my white neighbors parents put together. My schooling was well mixed until i went to an HBCU for college. Oddly though, my classes were always advanced, so even though my schools were well mixed, my classes were always mostly white. This experience is fundamentally different from my Wife who grew up in New Orleans, and will likely be extremely from my own future children who will likely live in All black upper class neighborhoods in Atlanta. To recognize those as being fundamentally different regardless of race would be a distinct mark of progress. However, the problem is that I, with advanced degrees and good credit and no kids out of wedlock, face some of the same social problems and stigmas as my cousin who is fresh out of his 2nd stint in Jail. The MAIN reason we share so many experiences is because we are both black. So even though i would love to have my accomplishments and experiences be recognized as unique to me and apart from my race, this is hardly an option and in the end mostly works against me on a grand social scale.
I wish i could figure out how to pull all of that back on topic but...ummm
Look at England. The nature of being black in England seems quite different to being black in the US. Black English people don't exhibit the same behavior as black people in the US do. There isn't a distinct "black British English" that black Brits speak in the same way that black people in the US are associated with a unique dialect. I'm reminded of a story of a British pop group from IIRC the 80s- they were a generic pop group that just happened to have black and white members in the same group, and in England this was no big deal. They got big enough to make a go out of performing in the US, and had to completely change their roster because they were told in the US no one would accept blacks and whites in the same group (and growing up at that time, I can remember when this was kinda true.) Why is the experience of being black in the two countries so different? Well, England banned slavery way before we did. And while Brits are every bit as capable of racism as Americans are, most Brits in my experience don't have the time or energy to manage anything more than a sort of petty passive-aggressive dismissive sort of racism spoken in a whisper with a hand over the mouth over tea. Dressing up in white pajamas and lighting a cross on fire on someone's lawn, well, that's all just a bit much in'nit?
*Nods*
That anecdote reminds me of reports I heard with regard to the first and second world wars, when the British public were shocked to see the treatment of black American soldiers. I recall reading anecdotes about pub signs which read: "For British people and coloured Americans only" and stories of people sticking up for blacks when white American soldiers tried to pull the "give up your seat/back of the bus" routine but I'm afraid I can't find an authoritative source for them at the mo.
There was (arguably still is), generally, a rather heavy undercurrent of racism in Britain. A good example might be a 1964 Tory slogan "If you want a nigger for a neighbour, vote Labour" and, of course, "would you let your daughter marry one" and suchlike. But I'm inclined to agree that the British tend(ed) to be more passive-aggressive about it.
Im probably going to misspeak on my main point but bear with me. So i make a habit of every blue moon perusing(read trolling) white nationalist websites just to keep my finger on the pulse of that particularly interesting group of people. Im black BTW in case you are wondering. In my time of doing this (ive been doing this for years now) Ive come to appreciate the basic purpose of white nationalism. It is basically about survival and improving the lot of their people. This is much more relevant than many think about. Although the media would tell you otherwise, the face of poverty in America is very much a pale one, yet the general pulse of the nation does not recognize that. This is because of many reasons that will likely come up later.
So despite the fact that I know that the typical white nationalist is half crazy/retarded, i cant help but feel pity for them. They remind me of the bad kid in class who is poorly socialized so they act out their social frustrations in class making them a pariah, leading to further problems.
The problem with white nationalism (unlike most other racial progress movements in America) is that the core defining element of their movement (and their biggest recruiting tool as far as i can tell) are hate and fear. Hatred for those they feel hurt them and those who are not like them. Fear of "losing" the country to minorities and foreigners. (the recent thread on Norway sparked this thought process.) This stems from their doctrine which believes in (either implicitly or blatantly) in natural racial superiority. To the point where they claim that blacks are naturally less intelligent and prone to crime, that Mexicans are sub human, Jews are all thieves... you know the routine.
Obviously this movement will never see mainstream traction as very few are far enough into the fringes of society to be associated with such a thing. The historical precedence of these groups pretty much tells us how this story ends. Many have compared the New Black Panther party to the KKK which is a fair comparison on some levels, however I doubt the NBPP has nearly as large of a body count in their time period.
However, the people who are most attracted to these groups (marginalized/disfranchised whites) are also REALLY the ones with the power to make sweeping change in this country. But they cant swallow the venom of their spleen long enough to make something positive happen and would rather fan flames than objectively look at what is really going on in society. Still with the state the country is in today, is there finally enough going on to separate organized and disenfranchised whites from burning crosses and pitch forks? Is there a way to motivate disenfranchised white Americans without using race baiting and hatred as the catalyst?