Why multiculturalism is a failure

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Katatori-kun:

Honestly if this early in the guy can't make an honest argument, I'm not seeing much point in listening to the rest.

Oooooh, watch the last 30 seconds. He argues that moral relativism is wrong because it is crazy. And because Shakespeare.

Dajosch:

Also its worth pointing out, that this issue seems to exist in many European countries with varying intensity. Germany for example didn't have destructive riots like the ones in London last year or those near Paris in 2005.

Just pointing out, the riots last year in England wern't anything to do with multiculturalism, it was all to do with the problems of living in a consumer society. It would have certainly given Marx food for thought. But of course, there are a lot of Brit's who are hostile towards the idea of multiculturalism, typical of any European country.

DrVornoff:
Railing against multiculturalism in America is a laugh and a half because American culture is built on the melting pot. Where I live, we got a lot of the Slavic immigrants from the early 20th century. I cannot imagine a Pittsburgh that doesn't have pierogis and poczkis, nor do I want to.

People used to hate the Chinese for coming to our country. But in the 1970's, we made an Asian man one of our biggest celebrities and the greatest cinematic action hero who ever lived. We used to hate the Italians. These days, is there anything more American than Frank Sinatra? We used to hate the Irish. But John F Kennedy is still remembered fondly.

So go ahead, bitch about Mexicans. In a generation, Latinos are going to be just as American as you and me.

Same for Europe i believe. Europeans used to hate blacks but now they're largely accepted. In the UK some of our best-loved comedians are black, and we could have had a black Labour leader in opposition. In England the Irish used to be hated as well, and were viewed as criminals, but now that's all been forgotten about and Brit's love the Irish. The Jews used to be hated and sadly it took a holocaust for them to be respected as a group.

I think the road may be rocky but the same will eventually happen to Muslims. The way people imagine their country will change to accommodate Muslims alongside blacks, Jews, and everyone else who isn't white. That's not to say Muslims in general won't have to adapt to living Western lifestyles and share similar values. I think for any society to work you need a broad set of shared and basic values. And i'm sure, give or take a few generations, the children and grandchildren of today's 1st generation Muslim's will be Westernised Muslims.

I don't subscribe wholly to multiculturalism, i just think that different groups should be respected so long as they adhere to a set of shared values. This doesn't mean them abandoning their faith or their dress or their culture, it just means them adapting to live in the West- which many Muslims i feel do.

Multiculturalism is one of those things that can either be quite a positive influence, or a rather negative one depending on how its done. For example, in the US our brand of multiculturalism has worked rather well for us. Thats because we tried to make a melting pot in our country. When people came in they were encouraged to embrace our language, culture, customs, ect. The Irish and the Germans did this extensively and they integrated very quickly. On the other hand many immigrants from places like Eastern Europe, Asia, Medditeranian countries did this to a far lesser degree. This is because they tended to stay in ethnic ghettos and "stick to their own". However over time these peoples also spread over the country and accepted American customs and ways. In both cases the newcomers were opposed by those already here to some extent or another, however this opposition often ended as quick as the group in question started to pick up the native culture.

What seems to be happening in Europe is that nearly all immigrants are going the route of the second wave of immigrants to America and are not integrating well. I believe over time these issues will fade and the cultures of these places where people are immigrating from will blend a little with that of their new found homes. However this may not go as smoothly as it did in the United States. This is because there seems to be less push from the governments for these new immigrants to assimilate with the nation at large. Though I am hopeful, to say that no problems have arisen from the newcomers is foolish, but I think it will get better.

EDIT: Added quote

MasterOfHisOwnDomain:

Dajosch:
Germany for example didn't have destructive riots like the ones in London last year or those near Paris in 2005.

That had nothing to do with multiculturalism or its supposed failure. That was mindless white youth engaging in mindless vandalism, and the failure of the police force to stop it.

Nickolai77:

Dajosch:

Also its worth pointing out, that this issue seems to exist in many European countries with varying intensity. Germany for example didn't have destructive riots like the ones in London last year or those near Paris in 2005.

Just pointing out, the riots last year in England wern't anything to do with multiculturalism, it was all to do with the problems of living in a consumer society. It would have certainly given Marx food for thought. But of course, there are a lot of Brit's who are hostile towards the idea of multiculturalism, typical of any European country.

Huh? Correct me if I'am wrong, but I was under the impression that these riots were also done largely by people with migration background which would make these riots, at least in part, relate to the whole multiculturalism stuff - or did I misread/misinterpreted somewhere?

EDIT 2: Okay if two people say it, I must have misread that somewhere - I'll remove that right away....
...and read up of course :)

Shock and Awe:
Multiculturalism is one of those things that can either be quite a positive influence, or a rather negative one depending on how its done. For example, in the US our brand of multiculturalism has worked rather well for us.

In between people getting away with a random murder because their victim is black, concentration camps for an ethnic groups in the past, concentration camps with torture for innocent people now, assaults over religious differences in broad daylight and judges ruling that's actually legal, religious hatred being a crucial determining factor in politics and race being quite relevant both politically and for one's chances in society, and a culture that is so horribly conformistic only Japan could be compared to it.... I'd say the US is about as fucked up in regards to multiculturalism as is humanly possible.

Dajosch:
Germany for example didn't have destructive riots like the ones in London last year or those near Paris in 2005.

Dajosch:
Correct me if I'am wrong, but I was under the impression that these riots were also done largely by people with migration background which would make these riots, at least in part, relate to the whole multiculturalism stuff - or did I misread/misinterpreted somewhere?

They had nothing to do with multiculturalism or its supposed failure. The rioters were of several different ethnic backgrounds (but that is the composition of London ...), and included many mindless white youth engaging in vandalism and theft.

Olie Warr:

[...] oh where its failed, Rome, Constantinople, London, Egypt, South Africa and Zimbabwe.

How are any of those an example of where multiculturalism has failed? London is a vibrant, global city, one of the greatest in the world. Constantinople was the capital and most prosperous city in Europe for about a thousand years - as Istanbul it is still a world city. Rome, well ... where do I begin - are you blaming the Fall of the Roman Empire on this now? Because that's called armed invasion, not multiculturalism.

Stagnant:
@OneCatch: The immigration one is even dumber.

You know, Hardcore Gamer, if I wasn't already firmly on the side of "assimilate (gradually) into our culture or leave" - style immigration, this video would have made me think, "Wow, and this guy is the best opponents of multiculturalism can do?" The video is riddled with pathetic logic, straw man arguments, and fails on almost every conceivable level (even the jokes fall flat). I wish I wasn't on this guy's side, because even if he's principally right, he's an asshat. As it currently stands, my current living environment (along with almost everywhere else in Germany where there's a considerable population of Turks) is a testament to what happens when multiculturalism fails. Doesn't make this video any less pretentious, stupid, or poorly informed, however.

Captcha: "Pipe down". Yes, please do, Andrew.

Oh goody!
As for the legitimate* argument between multiculturalism and assimilationism, I'm kind of in the middle.
I think demanding that everyone totally assimilate is unrealistic, and not necessarily desirable. There is often benefit to having a variety of cultures and beliefs, and it's difficult to determine what criteria to use to define the 'national culture' so to speak.

But equally, I think that there are certain things that people should do if they're going to immigrate. Those include learning the language, following the law (even when it conflicts with cultural values), and perhaps most importantly, making an effort to generally associate with people whether socially, in employment or elsewhere in order to avoid people forming culturally segregated enclaves.

I don't think that multiculturalism in itself is a bad aim - but there does have to be a degree of assimilation in order to prevent conflict and realise that aim.

- - - - -

* i.e. sensible, well thought out, and well evidenced

Nickolai77:

Dajosch:

Also its worth pointing out, that this issue seems to exist in many European countries with varying intensity. Germany for example didn't have destructive riots like the ones in London last year or those near Paris in 2005.

Just pointing out, the riots last year in England wern't anything to do with multiculturalism, it was all to do with the problems of living in a consumer society. It would have certainly given Marx food for thought. But of course, there are a lot of Brit's who are hostile towards the idea of multiculturalism, typical of any European country.

DrVornoff:
Railing against multiculturalism in America is a laugh and a half because American culture is built on the melting pot. Where I live, we got a lot of the Slavic immigrants from the early 20th century. I cannot imagine a Pittsburgh that doesn't have pierogis and poczkis, nor do I want to.

People used to hate the Chinese for coming to our country. But in the 1970's, we made an Asian man one of our biggest celebrities and the greatest cinematic action hero who ever lived. We used to hate the Italians. These days, is there anything more American than Frank Sinatra? We used to hate the Irish. But John F Kennedy is still remembered fondly.

So go ahead, bitch about Mexicans. In a generation, Latinos are going to be just as American as you and me.

Same for Europe i believe. Europeans used to hate blacks but now they're largely accepted. In the UK some of our best-loved comedians are black, and we could have had a black Labour leader in opposition. In England the Irish used to be hated as well, and were viewed as criminals, but now that's all been forgotten about and Brit's love the Irish. The Jews used to be hated and sadly it took a holocaust for them to be respected as a group.

I think the road may be rocky but the same will eventually happen to Muslims. The way people imagine their country will change to accommodate Muslims alongside blacks, Jews, and everyone else who isn't white. That's not to say Muslims in general won't have to adapt to living Western lifestyles and share similar values. I think for any society to work you need a broad set of shared and basic values. And i'm sure, give or take a few generations, the children and grandchildren of today's 1st generation Muslim's will be Westernised Muslims.

I don't subscribe wholly to multiculturalism, i just think that different groups should be respected so long as they adhere to a set of shared values. This doesn't mean them abandoning their faith or their dress or their culture, it just means them adapting to live in the West- which many Muslims i feel do.

I wish i could share your sentiments but every report/documentary i see about the Islam in my country shows its radicalizing and not westernizing. For instance, Hallal food was a non issues years ago, now public schools are starting to serve it in muslim neighborhoods. A moderate muslim sociologist decided to "infiltrate" Muslim communities and concluded it was radicalizing. Mulsims from older generations have already referred to the new generation as a "lost generation". And than you have islamic countries trying to radicilize our muslim communities by funding Islamic litterature spreading sexism and anti-semitism/christianism. Yes i look at you Saudi Arabia!

Or look at Quick trying Hallal only restaurants in France. My mother rightfully pointed out that when she was yound muslims didn't give a rats ass about what was hallal and what not. Why is it suddenly becoming an important selling point? Because they are westernizing? I doubt so.

And as long as our governments and companies are going to accomodate them more and more the more they will feel their religion is actually more important than our values.

Hardcore_gamer:
Multiculturalism is based on this horrible notion that people don't need to adapt or care about what their new mother nation is like and should be allowed to basically live in whatever way they please.

Hahahaha, no.

Multiculturalism is there to prevent cultures, who have no favorable predisposition towards crime and/or disruptive practices, from being persecuted. Its to set a precedent that it will never happen because you wouldn't want to be persecuted for your culture, now would you?

That's the problem, people never think of what would happen if they were to be discriminated against, when they would need multiculturalism to protect them from being passed a job because of the way they sound and look.

Now, what is it exactly in "their" culture that makes their country a shithole? What cultural aspects are there that go against the law AND that we do not enforce rules upon? Last time I checked we have laws and last time I checked there was no religion or culture that promotes illegality more than the other. So what is the problem?

Dajosch:
Huh? Correct me if I'am wrong, but I was under the impression that these riots were also done largely by people with migration background which would make these riots, at least in part, relate to the whole multiculturalism stuff - or did I misread/misinterpreted somewhere?

Then you got that wrong.

Not just you though, to be fair. A huge number of people, including otherwise respectable media figures and news outlets, leapt to that assumption before they had reliable figures and then had to backtrack like mad. For example, watch David Starkey quoting Enoch Powell on Newsnight as he tries to blame "black culture" for making white people behave in an unruly manner, because it actually turns out that the vast majority of rioters weren't black or asian at all and the people who claimed they all were were just going on racial stereotypes. Whoops!

As a London resident, I could have told you that without even thinking. Young working-class kids in inner city London do not have racially segregated friendship groups. They hang out with kids of different races. They have a shared dialect (multicultural london english) and to a large extent a shared culture. This is why I earlier held London up as a candidate for being one of the few multicultural societies on Earth. It would never be the case in London that all black kids and all the asian kids would get together along racial lines to go and loot stuff. They would go with their friendship groups, and their friendship groups are often ethnically mixed.

General consensus is that the riots were not caused by any grandiose social problem, but by simple opportunism in the face of the perceived impotence of the police in response to a few localized incidents. As the Met stepped up and became more visible in its response, rioting stopped.

So yeah, multiculturalism didn't fail in that case, the Met did, but that's hardly a new thing. The Met is far from a perfect institution.

EDIT: I don't mean to sound rude or dismissive. Like I said, a lot of news outlets did report it like that, so I can totally understand why people, especially overseas, got that idea.

Heck, even David Cameron managed to put his foot in his mouth by talking about ethnic minority fathers needing to take more responsibility before it emerged that the vast majority of rioters were white.

Dajosch:

Huh? Correct me if I'am wrong, but I was under the impression that these riots were also done largely by people with migration background which would make these riots, at least in part, relate to the whole multiculturalism stuff - or did I misread/misinterpreted somewhere?

EDIT 2: Okay if two people say it, I must have misread that somewhere - I'll remove that right away....
...and read up of course :)

Not your fault at all.
A lot of the media, people in positions of authority, and people who already had an axe to grind against multiculturalism jumped straight on the "It's the Asians and Muslims!!!" bandwagon. They either wanted to deflect blame, or wouldn't accept that this was actually a problem produced by native cultural problems!

It was complete crap though. The majority of convicted rioters have been disaffected white youths, many with long prior criminal records. In reality, it was pure opportunism: 'theft en masse' so to speak.

DrVornoff:

First, Christian is a religion, not a nationality or a race.

I know but you might get the wrong impression that my dad converted, so I just wanted to clear that up.

DrVornoff:
Now, that said Germans didn't always have an easy time of it in the States. Though they managed to get in on the colonial rush thanks to a political marriage arranged between the governments of England and Germany, they tended to be rather conservative and kept land and wealth tightly within their families. That struck some people as suspicious. A number of them were Loyalists during the Revolution, which didn't win them a lot of friends. And then of course there were the two World Wars that fostered strong anti-German sentiment.

Funny you bring that up because my father grew up in a town that was almost 100% ethnic Italian-American, and he had to deal with ethnic violence directed at him by other people where he lived because he was German-American.

DrVornoff:
Your mother is Jewish, meaning her side of the family has had an even harder time historically than the Germans ever did. One hundred years ago, ethnic quotas kept a lot of Jews out of America and racism against them continued for decades after that. You probably know that the term ghetto originally referred to the poor ethnic districts Jews had to live in in any places.

As I pointed out before, my mothers parents are not American, they grew up in old school Poland, so yeah, my family is more than familiar with the term "ghetto".

DrVornoff:
So do you think it would have been right to tell your ancestors to either go back from where they came or sacrifice all sense of cultural identity to adopt another?

My Jewish family basically did just that, while I won't reveal their names, I can tell you that they changed their first and last names. That because of their horrifying experience in WWII(they were in concentration camps), they would be the last people to draw attention to themselves over such small manners.

DrVornoff:
If the German-Americans in the 18th and 19th centuries hadn't been allowed to have their own culture, there would be a lot that we'd be missing out on today. A lot of the distinctiveness has faded away over time, in part thanks to the above-mentioned wars. But German-American culture did a lot for education and the arts (especially music) Stateside. Wouldn't have happened if we hadn't let them do their thing.

That is an interesting idea, but the thing is places like Japan already have a long history and long preserved culture, where as the US is unique in that it didn't really have that as much. Keeping on focusing on Japan, part of the work lifestyle for native Japanese is that you are expected to go out and get black-drunk with your coworkers. I don't think I need to tell you that if Muslim immigrants migrated to Japan, how this might be a problem. Better yet, if Muslim immigrants wanted to wear the burqa there, it would make them stand out which is an idea that goes directly against Japanese ideas that people should be part of the group. Tell me, what really can Japan or South Korea for that matter, gain by allowing people to where a burqa?[1]

DrVornoff:
I'm 4th generation myself, so I'm pretty far-removed from the ethnic districts my ancestors lived in. However, I did make it a point to do research on 20th century European immigrants and I do believe the country ended up better off for having taken people in and allowed them to bring their culture with them.

Again I go back to my point, what do countries like Japan and South Korea have to gain over accepting the idea that women should dress like this?

[1] Before you say I'm using a strawman, I'm not accusing you of advocating Japan or South Korea to allow burqas, just going off your idea that Japan/South Korea should be more open to other cultures

Blablahb:

Shock and Awe:
Multiculturalism is one of those things that can either be quite a positive influence, or a rather negative one depending on how its done. For example, in the US our brand of multiculturalism has worked rather well for us.

In between people getting away with a random murder because their victim is black, concentration camps for an ethnic groups in the past, concentration camps with torture for innocent people now, assaults over religious differences in broad daylight and judges ruling that's actually legal, religious hatred being a crucial determining factor in politics and race being quite relevant both politically and for one's chances in society, and a culture that is so horribly conformistic only Japan could be compared to it.... I'd say the US is about as fucked up in regards to multiculturalism as is humanly possible.

I beg to differ. First off, anyone can point to individual instances of insanity, especially in a big country like the US. Secondly the proof that the US melting pot has worked as well as one could hope is in the fact that a lot of Americans can't really point to their exact back ground and even those who do don't often see that as an important part of their identity. Also, from a personal standpoint I see a lot of ethnic stores and restaurants where I live and the people who own and run these places are both keeping in touch with their native culture and at the same time just as "American" as my Irish/German self. Thats really the ideal for America as I see it, every group making a contribution to the whole while also becoming part of it.

Shock and Awe:

Blablahb:

Shock and Awe:
Multiculturalism is one of those things that can either be quite a positive influence, or a rather negative one depending on how its done. For example, in the US our brand of multiculturalism has worked rather well for us.

In between people getting away with a random murder because their victim is black, concentration camps for an ethnic groups in the past, concentration camps with torture for innocent people now, assaults over religious differences in broad daylight and judges ruling that's actually legal, religious hatred being a crucial determining factor in politics and race being quite relevant both politically and for one's chances in society, and a culture that is so horribly conformistic only Japan could be compared to it.... I'd say the US is about as fucked up in regards to multiculturalism as is humanly possible.

I beg to differ. First off, anyone can point to individual instances of insanity, especially in a big country like the US. Secondly the proof that the US melting pot has worked as well as one could hope is in the fact that a lot of Americans can't really point to their exact back ground and even those who do don't often see that as an important part of their identity. Also, from a personal standpoint I see a lot of ethnic stores and restaurants where I live and the people who own and run these places are both keeping in touch with their native culture and at the same time just as "American" as my Irish/German self. Thats really the ideal for America as I see it, every group making a contribution to the whole while also becoming part of it.

Yet the US is notorious across the globe for despising anything that is "unamerican". And from personal experience i know no western country less open to other cultures than the US. Off course it usually is the work of a close minded minority but this minority seems to be overrepresented in the US. Things such as "This is only for Americans" are things i have only heard in the US(very rare mind you but in my opinion not a sign of tolerance and openness). And i've travelled through many western countries. If you want an example of open minded multiculturalism you better go look at your northern neighbors. Because the US is even worse than Europe.

generals3:

Shock and Awe:

Blablahb:
In between people getting away with a random murder because their victim is black, concentration camps for an ethnic groups in the past, concentration camps with torture for innocent people now, assaults over religious differences in broad daylight and judges ruling that's actually legal, religious hatred being a crucial determining factor in politics and race being quite relevant both politically and for one's chances in society, and a culture that is so horribly conformistic only Japan could be compared to it.... I'd say the US is about as fucked up in regards to multiculturalism as is humanly possible.

I beg to differ. First off, anyone can point to individual instances of insanity, especially in a big country like the US. Secondly the proof that the US melting pot has worked as well as one could hope is in the fact that a lot of Americans can't really point to their exact back ground and even those who do don't often see that as an important part of their identity. Also, from a personal standpoint I see a lot of ethnic stores and restaurants where I live and the people who own and run these places are both keeping in touch with their native culture and at the same time just as "American" as my Irish/German self. Thats really the ideal for America as I see it, every group making a contribution to the whole while also becoming part of it.

Yet the US is notorious across the globe for despising anything that is "unamerican". And from personal experience i know no western country less open to other cultures than the US. Off course it usually is the work of a close minded minority but this minority seems to be overrepresented in the US. Things such as "This is only for Americans" are things i have only heard in the US(very rare mind you but in my opinion not a sign of tolerance and openness). And i've travelled through many western countries. If you want an example of open minded multiculturalism you better go look at your northern neighbors. Because the US is even worse than Europe.

While I will be the first to admit that many if not most American's subscribe to the idea of American Exceptionalism(hell I'm one of them to a point) but I think that a vast majority of the dialog to the flavor of decrying all that is not American comes from a very small amount of people. From my experience(in Georgia mind you; where this is supposedly the worst) most Americans are open to hearing about how other countries do things and are usually reasonable when comparing them to how the United States does things. What I think makes many Americans come off as so....abrasive to others is the idea of American Exceptionalism that many subscribe to, though most do not hate or dislike other countries or cultures, they simply think ours is the better. In some cases I think they're right, in others not so much.

multiculturalism only fails when it is done wrong. sure it can have a negative impact, especially in the short term but if you do well to control it the long term benefits are great.

australia is a massively multicultural place. australia only works because of immigrants. last time i checked about 1 in 4 australians are born overseas. some people dont like it, but they dont understand that these people make australia run.

anyway, you cannot just let immigrants in and expect it to instantly be rainbows, most of the first generation are not instantly going blend with the adopted culture. what you can do though is make sure their kids get every chance to do so. the kids just by naturally growing up in a different country and going to be more culturally acclimatized then their parents. if you make sure they are not stuck at home with their parents, helping make ends meet with a crappy job at 12 years old instead of going to school then they are going to pick up both sides of the culture. that is how you get the mixed cultures that work. the important generation is the 2nd one, not the first.

tldr: to make multiculturalism work you do not judge it on the first generation, you make it work for the next generation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiculturalism

"In a political context the term is used for a wide variety of meanings, ranging from the advocacy of equal respect to the various cultures in a society, to a policy of promoting the maintenance of cultural diversity, to policies in which people of various ethnic and religious groups are addressed by the authorities as defined by the group they belong to.[1][2] A common aspect of many such policies is that they avoid presenting any specific ethnic, religious, or cultural community values as central.[3]

Multiculturalism is often contrasted with the concepts of assimilationism and has been described as a "salad bowl" or "cultural mosaic" rather than a "melting pot."[4]"

because several people in this forum REALLY don't understand what it means

PercyBoleyn:

Katatori-kun:
Funny, I keep seeing people claim multiculturalism to be a failure

You know what's even funnier? The US, the supposed leader of the free world, is extremely multicultural. But hey, if the right wing says it's a failure it's a failure alright!

Lots of this.
The US was once (and still may be) the most multicultural country in the world. Care to show me how the US is not successful?

This is something that has to be done on a case-by-case basis. It'll work for some, but not for other for a multitude of reasons. Some countries will do great with it, others will struggle. Neither scenario is a case for applying multiculturalism indiscriminately or call for its abandonment.

I_am_acting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiculturalism

"In a political context the term is used for a wide variety of meanings, ranging from the advocacy of equal respect to the various cultures in a society, to a policy of promoting the maintenance of cultural diversity, to policies in which people of various ethnic and religious groups are addressed by the authorities as defined by the group they belong to.[1][2] A common aspect of many such policies is that they avoid presenting any specific ethnic, religious, or cultural community values as central.[3]

Multiculturalism is often contrasted with the concepts of assimilationism and has been described as a "salad bowl" or "cultural mosaic" rather than a "melting pot."[4]"

because several people in this forum REALLY don't understand what it means

The problem with the definition of multiculturalism as a 'salad bowl' is that it is inevitable that the cultures are going to mix. To me the entire idea of multiculturalism is the acceptance of other cultures and the integration of that culture into society. Integration is the key, not assimilation.

In Australia for example we have a coffee culture. In Australia, Starbucks failed because their coffee is shit. The reason is post-WW2 we had a large influx of Greek and Italian immigrants. With them they brought a culture of cafes and good coffee. By the time these coffee corporations came around we already had been drinking coffee at the local cafe for decades and the corporations could not offer the same experience, so they failed.

Greek and Italian culture is very much integrated into Australian life. They adopted aspects of our culture, we adopted aspects of theirs and in the end we are better off for it.

I really forget sometimes how good we have it here in Australia. To me the idea of rejecting foreign cultures is...foreign. Why would we reject something just because it is different? We can learn from others and improve as a society.

Just for comparison so people that are unaware of how multicultural Australia is, 13% of Americans are foreign born. For Australia that number is 25%.

Olie Warr:
No but we do have to respect their ideas that are backward, oh where its failed, Rome, Constantinople, London, Egypt, South Africa and Zimbabwe.

Wait, what?
The first two on your list were superpowers for about a thousand years between them, Egypt was a regional power for several thousand, London is doing just fine[1], and there's very little in the way of multiculturalism in South Africa or Zimbabwe. The violence there is tribal and racial violence, the remnants of colonialism, poverty, and foreign intervention, all mixed up together. It's nothing to do with multiculturalism.

So I'm not sure you can regard it as a failure really. If anything, those examples are indicative of multiculturalism bringing success!

[1] Also historically the capital of the largest empire in history btw - go us (not)

Multiculturalism isn't a failure. However, it does have trouble accommodating certain things, such as irreconcilable political differences. Imagine for a moment that about a quarter of a population felt as strongly about animal killing as most people might feel about the murder or assault of humans. Now imagine that there is another quarter of the population that feels just as strongly that they will never, and should never be asked to give up eating meat or hunting. It's reasonable for these people to live under the same laws and government why? Now what if the numbers instead were 80% and 5%, but it was a place with a very small population and there was the likelihood of strong immigration which would tend to add overwhelmingly to the side of the issue which previously had 5%? Does curbing immigration, perhaps even in a targeted way, not start to look like a way to avoid problems, and maybe even civil war? One state with one set of laws decided by representatives of the people, or by the people themselves, is ill-suited to deal with such differences except by the elimination, by whatever means (hopefully nonviolent), of one or the other side of the conflict. Where people are willing to compromise, however, multiculturalism works just fine.

pyrate:

I_am_acting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiculturalism

"In a political context the term is used for a wide variety of meanings, ranging from the advocacy of equal respect to the various cultures in a society, to a policy of promoting the maintenance of cultural diversity, to policies in which people of various ethnic and religious groups are addressed by the authorities as defined by the group they belong to.[1][2] A common aspect of many such policies is that they avoid presenting any specific ethnic, religious, or cultural community values as central.[3]

Multiculturalism is often contrasted with the concepts of assimilationism and has been described as a "salad bowl" or "cultural mosaic" rather than a "melting pot."[4]"

because several people in this forum REALLY don't understand what it means

The problem with the definition of multiculturalism as a 'salad bowl' is that it is inevitable that the cultures are going to mix. To me the entire idea of multiculturalism is the acceptance of other cultures and the integration of that culture into society. Integration is the key, not assimilation.

In Australia for example we have a coffee culture. In Australia, Starbucks failed because their coffee is shit. The reason is post-WW2 we had a large influx of Greek and Italian immigrants. With them they brought a culture of cafes and good coffee. By the time these coffee corporations came around we already had been drinking coffee at the local cafe for decades and the corporations could not offer the same experience, so they failed.

Greek and Italian culture is very much integrated into Australian life. They adopted aspects of our culture, we adopted aspects of theirs and in the end we are better off for it.

I really forget sometimes how good we have it here in Australia. To me the idea of rejecting foreign cultures is...foreign. Why would we reject something just because it is different? We can learn from others and improve as a society.

Just for comparison so people that are unaware of how multicultural Australia is, 13% of Americans are foreign born. For Australia that number is 25%.

well, certain cultures are easier to integrate because they are more similar. Most tensions in the EU for instance don't arise from, let's say, the French rejecting the Belgian or Swiss culture. They are so similar and usually even have common key values, however the tensions arise when trying to integrate muslim values which can be extremely different. It's easier for a culture to say: oh these guys have good coffee let's integrate that than oh these guys think women should cover their faces let's go with that. If anything cuisine is one of those things that often is the easiest to integrate (though i doubt many would agree with importing the cat/dog eating habits of certain cultures).

So yeah the problem mainly arises when certain cultural values that a culture is trying to import makes people frown. And true multiculturalism is being "above" that, which i ain't and many others aren't either. Hence why some politicians claim "multiculturalism" failed.

reonhato:
multiculturalism only fails when it is done wrong. sure it can have a negative impact, especially in the short term but if you do well to control it the long term benefits are great.

australia is a massively multicultural place. australia only works because of immigrants. last time i checked about 1 in 4 australians are born overseas. some people dont like it, but they dont understand that these people make australia run.

anyway, you cannot just let immigrants in and expect it to instantly be rainbows, most of the first generation are not instantly going blend with the adopted culture. what you can do though is make sure their kids get every chance to do so. the kids just by naturally growing up in a different country and going to be more culturally acclimatized then their parents. if you make sure they are not stuck at home with their parents, helping make ends meet with a crappy job at 12 years old instead of going to school then they are going to pick up both sides of the culture. that is how you get the mixed cultures that work. the important generation is the 2nd one, not the first.

tldr: to make multiculturalism work you do not judge it on the first generation, you make it work for the next generation.

But what if the next generation performs even worse?

Helmholtz Watson:
I know but you might get the wrong impression that my dad converted, so I just wanted to clear that up.

I don't actually care how someone came to a certain religion. It's a non-issue for me.

My Jewish family basically did just that, while I won't reveal their names, I can tell you that they changed their first and last names. That because of their horrifying experience in WWII(they were in concentration camps), they would be the last people to draw attention to themselves over such small manners.

Understandable. But assimilation isn't always so quick.

That is an interesting idea, but the thing is places like Japan already have a long history and long preserved culture, where as the US is unique in that it didn't really have that as much. Keeping on focusing on Japan, part of the work lifestyle for native Japanese is that you are expected to go out and get black-drunk with your coworkers. I don't think I need to tell you that if Muslim immigrants migrated to Japan, how this might be a problem. Better yet, if Muslim immigrants wanted to wear the burqa there, it would make them stand out which is an idea that goes directly against Japanese ideas that people should be part of the group. Tell me, what really can Japan or South Korea for that matter, gain by allowing people to where a burqa?

Given what I've seen of Japanese fashions over the last 10-20 years, a burqa might actually be the least ridiculous thing you see someone wearing that day. So I don't think being visually recognizable is against Japanese cultural values.

If we want to talk about what this means for the treatment of women, it's still not much since Japan isn't much better.

Oh thank G-d I live in Canada. Btw, we have not exploded yet. We aren't perfect, but at least we try because the alternatives are much worse. I don't give a flying rat's ass about my country if it doesn't want to try to be multicultural. I have little to no connection to some magical concept of nation or country; living around multiple cultures and not shitting on everyone but my white self is absolutely more important.

And the legacy of assimilation is still screwing people over.

DrVornoff:

Helmholtz Watson:
I know but you might get the wrong impression that my dad converted, so I just wanted to clear that up.

I don't actually care how someone came to a certain religion. It's a non-issue for me.

My Jewish family basically did just that, while I won't reveal their names, I can tell you that they changed their first and last names. That because of their horrifying experience in WWII(they were in concentration camps), they would be the last people to draw attention to themselves over such small manners.

Understandable. But assimilation isn't always so quick.

That is an interesting idea, but the thing is places like Japan already have a long history and long preserved culture, where as the US is unique in that it didn't really have that as much. Keeping on focusing on Japan, part of the work lifestyle for native Japanese is that you are expected to go out and get black-drunk with your coworkers. I don't think I need to tell you that if Muslim immigrants migrated to Japan, how this might be a problem. Better yet, if Muslim immigrants wanted to wear the burqa there, it would make them stand out which is an idea that goes directly against Japanese ideas that people should be part of the group. Tell me, what really can Japan or South Korea for that matter, gain by allowing people to where a burqa?

Given what I've seen of Japanese fashions over the last 10-20 years, a burqa might actually be the least ridiculous thing you see someone wearing that day. So I don't think being visually recognizable is against Japanese cultural values.

If we want to talk about what this means for the treatment of women, it's still not much since Japan isn't much better.

lol, Japanese fashion is odd, but in day-to-day life nobody wears anything like a burqa, especially at work.

But back to my point, what does Japan gain by adopting Muslim customs like women being forced to wear a burqa?

generals3:

reonhato:
multiculturalism only fails when it is done wrong. sure it can have a negative impact, especially in the short term but if you do well to control it the long term benefits are great.

australia is a massively multicultural place. australia only works because of immigrants. last time i checked about 1 in 4 australians are born overseas. some people dont like it, but they dont understand that these people make australia run.

anyway, you cannot just let immigrants in and expect it to instantly be rainbows, most of the first generation are not instantly going blend with the adopted culture. what you can do though is make sure their kids get every chance to do so. the kids just by naturally growing up in a different country and going to be more culturally acclimatized then their parents. if you make sure they are not stuck at home with their parents, helping make ends meet with a crappy job at 12 years old instead of going to school then they are going to pick up both sides of the culture. that is how you get the mixed cultures that work. the important generation is the 2nd one, not the first.

tldr: to make multiculturalism work you do not judge it on the first generation, you make it work for the next generation.

But what if the next generation performs even worse?

that is what the government is for. help them with jobs and money so they are not working 20 hours a day, help them send their kids to school and keep them in school and so on. i know in america it is called socialism, in australia it is called investing in the future

generals3:

reonhato:
multiculturalism only fails when it is done wrong. sure it can have a negative impact, especially in the short term but if you do well to control it the long term benefits are great.

australia is a massively multicultural place. australia only works because of immigrants. last time i checked about 1 in 4 australians are born overseas. some people dont like it, but they dont understand that these people make australia run.

anyway, you cannot just let immigrants in and expect it to instantly be rainbows, most of the first generation are not instantly going blend with the adopted culture. what you can do though is make sure their kids get every chance to do so. the kids just by naturally growing up in a different country and going to be more culturally acclimatized then their parents. if you make sure they are not stuck at home with their parents, helping make ends meet with a crappy job at 12 years old instead of going to school then they are going to pick up both sides of the culture. that is how you get the mixed cultures that work. the important generation is the 2nd one, not the first.

tldr: to make multiculturalism work you do not judge it on the first generation, you make it work for the next generation.

But what if the next generation performs even worse?

Then it is possibly the fault of the government and the people for not doing their part in integrating them into society. You cannot just dump a whole bunch of immigrants on the ground and say "well, here you go, good luck", you need to provide them support, particularly at a local level.

For example, I live near an area with quite a large Muslim population, since there is quite a large Muslim population there was a Community Centre and Islamic School built in the area, specializing in giving assistance to Muslims.

reonhato:

generals3:

reonhato:
multiculturalism only fails when it is done wrong. sure it can have a negative impact, especially in the short term but if you do well to control it the long term benefits are great.

australia is a massively multicultural place. australia only works because of immigrants. last time i checked about 1 in 4 australians are born overseas. some people dont like it, but they dont understand that these people make australia run.

anyway, you cannot just let immigrants in and expect it to instantly be rainbows, most of the first generation are not instantly going blend with the adopted culture. what you can do though is make sure their kids get every chance to do so. the kids just by naturally growing up in a different country and going to be more culturally acclimatized then their parents. if you make sure they are not stuck at home with their parents, helping make ends meet with a crappy job at 12 years old instead of going to school then they are going to pick up both sides of the culture. that is how you get the mixed cultures that work. the important generation is the 2nd one, not the first.

tldr: to make multiculturalism work you do not judge it on the first generation, you make it work for the next generation.

But what if the next generation performs even worse?

that is what the government is for. help them with jobs and money so they are not working 20 hours a day, help them send their kids to school and keep them in school and so on. i know in america it is called socialism, in australia it is called investing in the future

And what if they don't want to work or there simply aren't enough jobs around? What if they constantly skip school? But than again, that last one just stems from a lack of will of the government to actually enforce the law. "let them do whatever they want and they'll vote for us" seems to be the motto over here.

Just because it's a pet peeve.

image

This is the burqa. It's a garment unique to Afghanistan, where women were forced to wear it by law under the taliban.

There are probably less than a hundred people in all of Europe who routinely wear the burqa.

image

This is the niqab. It's a traditional Arab dress which actually predates Islam, and which some muslims consider to be a more modest form of Islamic dress for women.

As to whether these things should be banned. Many Islamic countries actually ban women from wearing headscarfs (of any kind) in government buildings, for example. There's plenty of precedent for a ban on pragmatic grounds even in the Islamic world.

That said, my personal opinion is that there is really no negative effect to allowing an exception on religious grounds. There has never been a significant public outcry in the UK about sikh men receiving similar exemptions, I suspect because they're men and thus can be magically assumed to have more autonomy. I don't suspect I need to make my feelings on that terribly clear.

generals3:

reonhato:

generals3:

But what if the next generation performs even worse?

that is what the government is for. help them with jobs and money so they are not working 20 hours a day, help them send their kids to school and keep them in school and so on. i know in america it is called socialism, in australia it is called investing in the future

And what if they don't want to work or there simply aren't enough jobs around? What if they constantly skip school? But than again, that last one just stems from a lack of will of the government to actually enforce the law. "let them do whatever they want and they'll vote for us" seems to be the motto over here.

how is that any difference from the general population? despite what some people seem to think, a large majority of people do not want to laze around and do nothing. australia has services for people struggling to find a job, we have a centrelink to help them with the costs and so on and some of them are directed at immigrants.

the weird thing is australia is seen as fairly bad when it comes to immigrants. obviously it is because of our treatment of the boat people, but as soon as you look past that australia does a fair amount of work for immigrants, at least those who go through the proper channels.

Hardcore_gamer:
I was going to create a thread where I would try to explain why multiculturalism doesn't work, but then I saw this youtube video that explains it better then I ever could:

Well if this explains things better than you ever could, should I not read any further from you?

Because that video explains it horribly. It's condescending, while having absolutely no idea what it is talking about. It's embarrassing that somebody would even say that with their face attached to it. There's so many logical fallacies that I have a headache, and feel as if it's time to invoke the word "troll".

reonhato:

generals3:

reonhato:

that is what the government is for. help them with jobs and money so they are not working 20 hours a day, help them send their kids to school and keep them in school and so on. i know in america it is called socialism, in australia it is called investing in the future

And what if they don't want to work or there simply aren't enough jobs around? What if they constantly skip school? But than again, that last one just stems from a lack of will of the government to actually enforce the law. "let them do whatever they want and they'll vote for us" seems to be the motto over here.

how is that any difference from the general population? despite what some people seem to think, a large majority of people do not want to laze around and do nothing. australia has services for people struggling to find a job, we have a centrelink to help them with the costs and so on and some of them are directed at immigrants.

the weird thing is australia is seen as fairly bad when it comes to immigrants. obviously it is because of our treatment of the boat people, but as soon as you look past that australia does a fair amount of work for immigrants, at least those who go through the proper channels.

It's no different and that's the whole thing (though i would say it's worse in immigrant communities). We aren't able to fully solve those things for ourselves so how are we supposed to do it for others?

Helmholtz Watson:
But back to my point, what does Japan gain by adopting Muslim customs like women being forced to wear a burqa?

I don't think they'd care. And it's not as if the Japanese people would be doing it themselves. Just the Muslims.

*sigh* I should create a new thread about this, but how come that people who are against multiculturalism are usually also often.

Pro-guns.
Pro-life.
Pro-Organized religion.
Conservative.
Militaristic.
Pro-Capital Punishment.
Anti-Social Security.
Anti-Union.

((And 7/8 of those are eviiil)

It just seems soooooo hard to understand how people adopting certain viewpoints often adopt theese others that has little to do with them. Ofcourse this is very off-topic, its just a casual observation.

OT: Jews can be racist too, you realize.. Being discriminated against doesnt prevent oneself from discriminating against others. Thats gotta be the stupidest defense of someone I've heard as of yet.

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