Why multiculturalism is a failure

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Gerishnakov:
snip

But would Saudi Arabia expect your daughter to dress a certain way, or would they let you drink alcohol in public? Better yet, would you(I assume a non-Muslim) be allowed to enter Mecca or Medina?

Helmholtz Watson:
snip

So you're trying to weasel your way out of this. Well, it's not like it's the first time you've done this so whatever. Your question is absurd and you know very well it is, in fact it's the same reason you won't answer mine. Well, keep on spouting your idiotic version of multiculturalism. I'm sure some crazed right winger will be more than happy to return the favor.

Guy from the 80's:

Gerishnakov:

Because people don't just drop their own culture when they leave their place of origin? If I moved to Saudi Arabia tomorrow I wouldn't suddenly start dressing like this:

image

I find it strange they all dress the same. Not much room for individuality I guess?

That's their culture, deal.

Guy from the 80's:
You didn't address any of my points.

None of your points have anything to do with multiculturalism. They all came about as the result of conquests, totalitarian governments, or bullshit peace deals at the end of WW1.

Helmholtz Watson:

Gerishnakov:
snip

But would Saudi Arabia expect your daughter to dress a certain way, or would they let you drink alcohol in public? Better yet, would you(I assume a non-Muslim) be allowed to enter Mecca or Medina?

1. I realise SA would expect my daughter to dress a certain way, and that's why I would never live there.

2. Alcohol, see '1'.

3. WTF would I as a non-muslim, even want to go to Mecca or Medina? I'm fine with not being allowed there.

Gerishnakov:

That's their culture, deal.

You have an utterly post-colonial view of the middle east. Are you saying People in SA should not be free to expres themselves through fashion? Or maybe you just think no one would want to do it?

Guy from the 80's:

None of your points have anything to do with multiculturalism. They all came about as the result of conquests, totalitarian governments, or bullshit peace deals at the end of WW1.

Wrong. It was all conflicts based on ethnicity and religion. How blind can you get?

PercyBoleyn:

Helmholtz Watson:
snip

So you're trying to weasel your way out of this. Well, it's not like it's the first time you've done this so whatever. Your question is absurd and you know very well it is, in fact it's the same reason you won't answer mine. Well, keep on spouting your idiotic version of multiculturalism. I'm sure some crazed right winger will be more than happy to return the favor.

My comment about Japan and Islam came from a previous person who said that the US benefited from German immigrants bringing their culture to America, so that prompted me to ask what would Japan gain by Muslim immigrants bringing their culture to Japan or South Korea. It was a legitimate question, based on the example of German cultural contribution to the US. As for your comment about my character, you derailed my question with some of your own, which I answered, yet when I ask you to return the favor, you refuse. Ok, I'm not going to harass you until you answer it, but I'm also not going to waste my time indulging your derailment of my question.

Gerishnakov:

Guy from the 80's:

Gerishnakov:

Because people don't just drop their own culture when they leave their place of origin? If I moved to Saudi Arabia tomorrow I wouldn't suddenly start dressing like this:

image

I find it strange they all dress the same. Not much room for individuality I guess?

That's their culture, deal.

Guy from the 80's:
You didn't address any of my points.

None of your points have anything to do with multiculturalism. They all came about as the result of conquests, totalitarian governments, or bullshit peace deals at the end of WW1.

Helmholtz Watson:

Gerishnakov:
snip

But would Saudi Arabia expect your daughter to dress a certain way, or would they let you drink alcohol in public? Better yet, would you(I assume a non-Muslim) be allowed to enter Mecca or Medina?

1. I realise SA would expect my daughter to dress a certain way, and that's why I would never live there.

2. Alcohol, see '1'.

3. WTF would I as a non-muslim, even want to go to Mecca or Medina? I'm fine with not being allowed there.

I never said you would live there, I said that if you did move there, they would expect your family to follow their customs(see:don't drink and wear certain clothes).

Living in Canada, we seem to have that cultural mosaic shit covered fairly well (except for the natives, who seem to get screwed over a lot). Heck, I'm British, and I still practice the cornerstones of my culture here (spelling 'colour' with a u, pronouncing the 'h' sound in 'herb,' and bitching about the weather).

On a more serious note, it's not really a binary thing, where you either assimilate entirely or not at all. It's more of a scale. All cultures should be given a reasonable degree of respect and freedom, unless they begin to harm others, or are unable to reciprocate said respect. You don't have to assimilate entirely to your host's culture, and you can adopt some ideas and customs while keeping some native ideas too, just so long as you don't take the piss.

Blablahb:

Nibbles:
And the legacy of assimilation is still screwing people over.

Just in different way than you'd expect. You and I for instance are banned from entering large chunks of Canada because of our race.

What are you talking about? Why would you be banned from large chunks of Canada?

Nielas:

Blablahb:
Just in different way than you'd expect. You and I for instance are banned from entering large chunks of Canada because of our race.

What are you talking about? Why would you be banned from large chunks of Canada?

It means that it's very easy to talk bollocks about places you have not experienced nor know anything much about.

Helmholtz Watson:
But back to my point, what does Japan gain by adopting Muslim customs like women being forced to wear a burqa?

Wait... where the hell did this come from?

Helmholtz Watson:
Then what about Niqhab or the Hijab? Those are not exclusively worn in the Middle-East.

So?

Orthodox Jewish women often cover their heads as part of their religious tradition, which also comes from the Middle East.

Catholic and Orthodox nuns also cover their heads as part of their religious traditions, which 'originally' come from Italy and Greece, respectively.

A full member of the Sikh tradition must never cut their hair and must thus wear a turban or headscarf as part of their religious tradition, which originates in northern India.

Some Christian traditions still encourage wearing plain dress, which includes a headscarf for women. These traditions generally originate in Northern Europe or the US.

These are not really "cultural" practices, they're religious observances, and in a society which takes basic measures to accommodate them, they have never posed a problem. Moreover, they have not mysteriously spread through the population like some kind of perverse fashion statement. Why would hajib or niqab, which is ultimately just another form of clothing worn as a religious observance, be any different?

There are only about three countries in the Islamic world which legally require women to wear Islamic dress (four if you count Afghanistan, the others I think being Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Iran). In fact, there are about 10 countries in the Islamic world where it's illegal for women to wear Islamic dress in government buildings and/or education, so no. I don't see this inevitable trend towards mandatory veiling as a particularly likely consequence of Muslim immigration.

You know, go back about a hundred years, and you can find plenty of Very Serious Editorials, on why those filthy, drunken, Pope-worshipping Irish can NEVER become productive members of American Society.

Maybe they were right. Just look at Bill O'Reilly.

Helmholtz Watson:
My comment about Japan and Islam came from a previous person who said that the US benefited from German immigrants bringing their culture to America

I don't know the context so I'm not going to comment on that.

Helmholtz Watson:
It was a legitimate question, based on the example of German cultural contribution to the US.

Except that's now how multiculturalism works.

Helmholtz Watson:
As for your comment about my character, you derailed my question with some of your own, which I answered, yet when I ask you to return the favor, you refuse.

I must've blinked and missed your answer.

Helmholtz Watson:
But back to my point, what does Japan gain by adopting Muslim customs like women being forced to wear a burqa?

Wait... where the hell did this come from? I can assure you there is absolutely no chance whatsoever of Japan forcing women to wear a burqa ever. It's such an absurd proposition it makes my brain hurt just thinking about it.

Blablahb:

Nibbles:
And the legacy of assimilation is still screwing people over.

Just in different way than you'd expect. You and I for instance are banned from entering large chunks of Canada because of our race.

Just a note of contention here, but how and why would you be banned from large chunks of Canada, exactly? Canada is one of the most successive cultural mosaic nations on the planet, despite the fact we tend to mess up with our remaining native population *hems*.

I'm asking this as a Canadian myself, btw, because that statement really confuses me.

Katatori-kun:

Helmholtz Watson:
But back to my point, what does Japan gain by adopting Muslim customs like women being forced to wear a burqa?

Wait... where the hell did this come from? I can assure you there is absolutely no chance whatsoever of Japan forcing women to wear a burqa ever. It's such an absurd proposition it makes my brain hurt just thinking about it.

Look at my conversation with DrVornoff, I originally said that the immigrants should attempt to adopt their new country's culture, which he responded with asking me about my ethnicity(I said half German) so he came back and said that German culture as contributed to American culture. So I responded, how would places like Japan(a place that puts emphasis on being Japanese) benefit from adopting certain aspects of Muslim immigrants culture, like women wearing the Burqa? I asked the question because he makes the claim that the immigrants culture can contribute to the host country's culture.

ShadowsofHope:

Blablahb:

Nibbles:
And the legacy of assimilation is still screwing people over.

Just in different way than you'd expect. You and I for instance are banned from entering large chunks of Canada because of our race.

Just a note of contention here, but how and why would you be banned from large chunks of Canada, exactly? Canada is one of the most successive cultural mosaic nations on the planet, despite the fact we tend to mess up with our remaining native population *hems*.

I'm asking this as a Canadian myself, btw, because that statement really confuses me.

he's spreading Bullshit so i wouldn't take any of it seriously, i doubt Canada has any problems with white dutch males. I guess he's trying to make it seem like Europe is the multicultural capital of the world.

Helmholtz Watson:

Katatori-kun:

Helmholtz Watson:
But back to my point, what does Japan gain by adopting Muslim customs like women being forced to wear a burqa?

Wait... where the hell did this come from? I can assure you there is absolutely no chance whatsoever of Japan forcing women to wear a burqa ever. It's such an absurd proposition it makes my brain hurt just thinking about it.

Look at my conversation with DrVornoff, I originally said that the immigrants should attempt to adopt their new country's culture, which he responded with asking me about my ethnicity(I said half German) so he came back and said that German culture as contributed to American culture. So I responded, how would places like Japan(a place that puts emphasis on being Japanese) benefit from adopting certain aspects of Muslim immigrants culture, like women wearing the Burqa? I asked the question because he makes the claim that the immigrants culture can contribute to the host country's culture.

Have you never had a curry? They are amazing. And the principle of giving 10% of your income to charity is a nice one. I think any society could benefit from those two things. mmm curry. Dammit, now I'm hungry.

ClockworkPenguin:

Helmholtz Watson:

Katatori-kun:

Wait... where the hell did this come from? I can assure you there is absolutely no chance whatsoever of Japan forcing women to wear a burqa ever. It's such an absurd proposition it makes my brain hurt just thinking about it.

Look at my conversation with DrVornoff, I originally said that the immigrants should attempt to adopt their new country's culture, which he responded with asking me about my ethnicity(I said half German) so he came back and said that German culture as contributed to American culture. So I responded, how would places like Japan(a place that puts emphasis on being Japanese) benefit from adopting certain aspects of Muslim immigrants culture, like women wearing the Burqa? I asked the question because he makes the claim that the immigrants culture can contribute to the host country's culture.

Have you never had a curry? They are amazing. And the principle of giving 10% of your income to charity is a nice one. I think any society could benefit from those two things. mmm curry. Dammit, now I'm hungry.

Except Japan already has its own curry.

Helmholtz Watson:

ClockworkPenguin:

Helmholtz Watson:
Look at my conversation with DrVornoff, I originally said that the immigrants should attempt to adopt their new country's culture, which he responded with asking me about my ethnicity(I said half German) so he came back and said that German culture as contributed to American culture. So I responded, how would places like Japan(a place that puts emphasis on being Japanese) benefit from adopting certain aspects of Muslim immigrants culture, like women wearing the Burqa? I asked the question because he makes the claim that the immigrants culture can contribute to the host country's culture.

Have you never had a curry? They are amazing. And the principle of giving 10% of your income to charity is a nice one. I think any society could benefit from those two things. mmm curry. Dammit, now I'm hungry.

Except Japan already has its own curry.

I was impressed, until I read this, from the wiki page you sent me to:

As curry rice was introduced to Japan via English cuisine,

..erm, guess where us Brits got it from. India and Pakistan. (I know India is predominantly Hindu but shhhh.)

Helmholtz Watson:
Except Japan already has its own curry.

I had eel sushi (cooked) a few weeks ago. Very tasty.

...Dammit, now I'm hungry.

arbane:

Helmholtz Watson:
Except Japan already has its own curry.

I had eel sushi (cooked) a few weeks ago. Very tasty.

...Dammit, now I'm hungry.

Its the best isn't it?! Who would have thought that such ugly/scary looking animals tasted so good! Damn now I'm hungry.

ClockworkPenguin:
snip

Point is, Japan has done what it always does, take something foreign(like curry) and make it Japanese.

Helmholtz Watson:
I think they would care if the Muslims wanted to be part of "the group", but thats not the question I asked you. I asked you, what does Japan or South Korea have to gain by making Japanese women wear a burqa?

It's a bullshit question. Why on earth would taking in some Middle Eastern immigrants mean that native-born Japanese women would have to start wearing head scarves? Where are you getting such a bizarre idea from? They're Middle Easterners, not the Borg collective. Might as well ask what any country has to gain by allowing Sikhs into their borders, because of course if you let Sikhs wear swords as part of their religion, soon fucking everyone will be doing it, and then we'll be really screwed!

Helmholtz Watson:
Look at my conversation with DrVornoff, I originally said that the immigrants should attempt to adopt their new country's culture, which he responded with asking me about my ethnicity(I said half German) so he came back and said that German culture as contributed to American culture. So I responded, how would places like Japan(a place that puts emphasis on being Japanese) benefit from adopting certain aspects of Muslim immigrants culture, like women wearing the Burqa? I asked the question because he makes the claim that the immigrants culture can contribute to the host country's culture.

And in the process you completely missed the damn point. When immigrants integrate, the blending of culture is not haphazard. There is absolutely no reason why the Japanese government would pass a law ordering women to wear head scarves. None. Not a a single goddamn one. You're just making up a fake issue and it's getting really tiresome. If you look at Middle Eastern cultures and the head scarf is the first thing you think of, you need to broaden your horizons.

I've been trying to be polite to you, and all you're doing is making an ignorant, xenophobic argument with absolutely no basis in reality. Can you see how this is trying my patience? Give me one bloody reason why Japan would take in a bunch of foreigners and then pass a law telling everyone to dress like them.

Helmholtz Watson:

Hold on a second. Tybring-Gjedde does in no way represent Norway. When you quote France's (soon former) president Sarkozy, Germany's chancellor Merkel, and Britain's prime minister Cameron, you're quoting the de-facto leaders and representatives of their nations. Tybring-Gjedde is just leader of FRP's Oslo division. If you're gonna quote "Norway" on this, at least do it from the prime minister of Norway, Stoltenberg, and not some nutjob from the far right division that is highly against any immigration and foreign culture.

ShadowsofHope:

Blablahb:

Nibbles:
And the legacy of assimilation is still screwing people over.

Just in different way than you'd expect. You and I for instance are banned from entering large chunks of Canada because of our race.

Just a note of contention here, but how and why would you be banned from large chunks of Canada, exactly? Canada is one of the most successive cultural mosaic nations on the planet, despite the fact we tend to mess up with our remaining native population *hems*.

I'm asking this as a Canadian myself, btw, because that statement really confuses me.

I'm actually quite certain he just pulled that one out of his ass.

NLS:

Helmholtz Watson:

Hold on a second. Tybring-Gjedde does in no way represent Norway. When you quote France's (soon former) president Sarkozy, Germany's chancellor Merkel, and Britain's prime minister Cameron, you're quoting the de-facto leaders and representatives of their nations. Tybring-Gjedde is just leader of FRP's Oslo division. If you're gonna quote "Norway" on this, at least do it from the prime minister of Norway, Stoltenberg, and not some nutjob from the far right division that is highly against any immigration and foreign culture.

Apologies, I'm not familiar with Norwegian politics.

DrVornoff:
snip

ok I'll rephrase, what do places like South Korea have to gain from adopting cultural aspects from West-Asian Muslim immigrants?

Helmholtz Watson:

Katatori-kun:

Helmholtz Watson:
But back to my point, what does Japan gain by adopting Muslim customs like women being forced to wear a burqa?

Wait... where the hell did this come from? I can assure you there is absolutely no chance whatsoever of Japan forcing women to wear a burqa ever. It's such an absurd proposition it makes my brain hurt just thinking about it.

Look at my conversation with DrVornoff, I originally said that the immigrants should attempt to adopt their new country's culture, which he responded with asking me about my ethnicity(I said half German) so he came back and said that German culture as contributed to American culture. So I responded, how would places like Japan(a place that puts emphasis on being Japanese) benefit from adopting certain aspects of Muslim immigrants culture, like women wearing the Burqa? I asked the question because he makes the claim that the immigrants culture can contribute to the host country's culture.

That's a completely absurd analogy though. Germans brought Americans good beer (though we do tend to ignore that contribution in favor of the swill that passes for most American beers). There did not suddenly come into being a law that forced Americans to drink only German beer. Likewise, Arab/Muslim immigration to countries where they are allowed to retain elements of their home culture can positively influence the host culture without forcing the host culture to adopt a restrictive version of that home culture.

And frankly, this characterization of Arab/Muslim culture as though the niqab was the only thing they have to contribute to the world is rather bigoted and insulting. There are tons of things Arab/Muslim immigration could bring to Japan that would be of benefit to Japanese people. Off the top of my head: a rich variety of cuisine, a model of womanhood where women are able to be beautiful and feminine without having to be obsessed with cutesy character goods or pretend they are pre-adolescent[1], an approach to foreign-language learning that values communication and fluency over rote-memorization for tests, and of course an awareness that not everyone who is foreign comes from New York City or Los Angeles.

[1] Because just in case some people on this board forget, not all Arab Muslim women wear the niqab in public.

Helmholtz Watson:
ok I'll rephrase, what do places like South Korea have to gain from adopting cultural aspects from West-Asian Muslim immigrants?

Good food and music, perhaps? Ever eaten Middle Eastern food or listened to the folk music of the region? It's great!

Railing against multiculturalism is basically just a coded way of being racist really.

You're not allowed to come out against certain cultures, or be in favour of a specific culture, so instead you just say that you're in favour of certain "good" cultures (totally not naming any names *cough cough* my culture *cough cough*) not being corrupted by certain "bad" cultures (again, not naming any *cough cough* Islamic/Hispanic/Asian/Whatever cultures *cough cough* names).

I mean, it's totally obvious that certain cultures are totally superior and clearly the moral and just way of living your life right? Right? And we all know that those dirty immigrants are all just trying to destroy our enlightened way of life and replace it with their debased and twisted culture, right? Right?

All right, exaggerated strawman, it's a fair cop. But still, that's the subtext behind arguments against multiculturalism, the idea that our culture is superior and we mustn't let it be tarnished.

All this talk in this thread about food has made me fucking hungry. And in correspondence with the topic I got myself a nice Döner Kebab from my local vendor a few streets off. Despite the store being filled with hungry Germans I succeeded and got myself a nice vegetarian one dipped with garlic sauce. *Bites off* Hmmmmmmmmmm......

"Islamic Culture" is just sooooooooooooo tasty!

Helmholtz Watson:

evilthecat:

Helmholtz Watson:
Strawman, I never made the claim that all Muslim women wear burqas, just that burqas are a part of Islamic culture.

They're not though.

They're a part of Afghani culture and even then only came into fashion when the taliban made them compulsory. They're unique to Afghanistan, and virtually noone outside of Afghanistan wears one.

Then what about Niqhab or the Hijab? Those are not exclusively worn in the Middle-East.

Hijabs are also famously worn in Orthodox Russia, Eastern Europe, and used to be quite popular everywhere else as well.

They just weren't called Hijabs. Just headscarves or whatever.

DrVornoff:

Helmholtz Watson:
ok I'll rephrase, what do places like South Korea have to gain from adopting cultural aspects from West-Asian Muslim immigrants?

Good food and music, perhaps? Ever eaten Middle Eastern food or listened to the folk music of the region? It's great!

It's true. The difference in dialects is also a great source of Comedy like is in the UK. These Jordanian guys were pissing themselves laughing going, "YemenyYemenyYemenyYemenyYemenyYemeny" in a Yemen accent.

DrVornoff:

Helmholtz Watson:
ok I'll rephrase, what do places like South Korea have to gain from adopting cultural aspects from West-Asian Muslim immigrants?

Good food and music, perhaps? Ever eaten Middle Eastern food or listened to the folk music of the region? It's great!

But Japan already has those things, why adopt West Asian food when they have their own?

Katatori-kun:

And frankly, this characterization of Arab/Muslim culture as though the niqab was the only thing they have to contribute to the world is rather bigoted and insulting.

Which is why I reworred my question to include all aspects of Middle Eastern culture.

Katatori-kun:
There are tons of things Arab/Muslim immigration could bring to Japan that would be of benefit to Japanese people. Off the top of my head: a rich variety of cuisine, a model of womanhood where women are able to be beautiful and feminine without having to be obsessed with cutesy character goods or pretend they are pre-adolescent

Really? The Middle East idea of women in society is what Japan should adopt? I would hardly urge Japan or South Korea to treat women like they do in places like Iran or Saudi Arabia. Don't get me wrong, Japan isn't the pinnacle of women's rights in East-Asia, but I wouldn't suggest that they become like the middle-east in that regard.

Katatori-kun:
an approach to foreign-language learning that values communication and fluency over rote-memorization for tests, and of course an awareness that not everyone who is foreign comes from New York City or Los Angeles.

That could be done by studying abroad, that doesn't require immigration to do.

Danny Ocean:

Helmholtz Watson:

evilthecat:

They're not though.

They're a part of Afghani culture and even then only came into fashion when the taliban made them compulsory. They're unique to Afghanistan, and virtually noone outside of Afghanistan wears one.

Then what about Niqhab or the Hijab? Those are not exclusively worn in the Middle-East.

Hijabs are also famously worn in Orthodox Russia, Eastern Europe, and used to be quite popular everywhere else as well.

They just weren't called Hijabs. Just headscarves or whatever.

And does the government require that they wear them? Also are they done because people might get cold, or is it to appear modest and not sexually appealing to men?

Helmholtz Watson:
And does the government require that they wear them? Also are they done because people might get cold, or is it to appear modest and not sexually appealing to men?

I forgot to mention India.

I presume in hot countries it's to prevent burning and in cold countries to keep you warm, and in both cases pretty unrelated to looking attractive, because those hijabs can look pretty damn good when they want them to. At their most complex they can be very ornate, and at their simplest they're just the same as a hood. Not really a big deal.

Not like the Niqabs and Burqas. Those things are a pain-in-the-ass. I suspect that's why it's settled on the Hijab being the standard across most of the region.

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