The reason that I ask this is because I see a lot of debate about this on yahoo answers in the Religion and Spirituality section. So what do you guys think? I also think he gave us free will.

For God to have created the Universe before there was time, he would have to exist outside of the Universe. The laws of reality, time, logic, and causality do not apply outside the universe. So if he did create the Universe, he is both real and not real, has always existed and never existed, etc.

I like to think so. This is partially due to the fact the universe seems tailor made not just for carbon based life, but for really anything other then dust to exist in the first place. That and honestly I like the idea, but that's just a personal preference not an argument. Is it possible there isn't? I suppose so. But again; I like to think differently. I also personally dislike arguing about it. I've heard every argument in the book for both sides and I don't care for the hostility it often brings.

Yeah. There's not really a logical argument I can make for it. Sorry, Internet, I know you like that sort of thing. I just feel like the universe makes a bit more sense if there's a higher power that got it all going.

I don't think he's a judgmental dick like the Bible likes to portray him. But I think there's something out there.

If the Universe required a creator, then who created the creator and so on, and if you want to say that the creator always existed, why not take the far simpler step of saying that the universe always existed?

reonhato:

Shock and Awe:
I like to think so. This is partially due to the fact the universe seems tailor made not just for carbon based life, but for really anything other then dust to exist in the first place. That and honestly I like the idea, but that's just a personal preference not an argument. Is it possible there isn't? I suppose so. But again; I like to think differently. I also personally dislike arguing about it. I've heard every argument in the book for both sides and I don't care for the hostility it often brings.

yep tailor made, that is why a super large majority of space is about as close to a vacuum as one can get, that is it contains nothing but a couple of hydrogen atoms per m3. to say the universe is tailor made is simply ridiculous

I would disagree, when one considers the universal constants that are really in the sweet spot for creating things such as planets, stars, and eventually the carbon bonds that make up all life that we know of it really becomes quite remarkable that anything besides dust exists in the first place. Though there are other ways to look at it such as the multiverse hypothesis, which I may add has about as much physical backing as god or any other super natural phenomenon, unless I am mistaken about not being able to observe outside our physical universe.

But people don't go around slaughtering in the name on Multiverse Hypothesis do they?

There is no observable reason to believe in a god or gods, and no that we've covered that, we must ask a more important question...

If there is no way of knowing about, or observing the effects of a god or gods, then why does it even matter?

And another thing... Universal constants? Surely you know that matter is made of sub-atomic particles yes? and they are made of quarks? and everything is made of strings? and because of the way strings behave, things act harmoniously etc.

"God did it" is a terrible explanation of the universe.

If we have free will, then God is not all-knowing. If he is all-knowing, then our actions should NOT be judged, as we lose will. I also can't buy that God is timeless. Everything has a beginning and an end. God requires a creator by this rule.

Here's my issue with religion as a whole. It highlights us as "too" special. God made the heavens and the earth for us, and we're the center of the universe. Problem with that is that speaking scientifically, we're just the highest step so far in evolution. So then why, of all levels of evolution, is THIS current one so special? When man evolves beyond just this, who will God favor? This level? The next?

Here's my issue with the notion of God -- He's bipolar. Constantly changing. God lays down laws such as "thou shalt not kill", yet wipes out whole cities for what he perceives as sin. God is called merciful, yet around every corner, fucks people up for basically no reason. Take Abraham. Take Moses. Take Job. God isn't good, and he isn't merciful. He is, as a creature, insecure and jealous. He requires you to kneel, worship; he entices you with promises of an eternity of goods, supposedly because he loves us all, yet makes an eternity of pain one of two options as an outcome. If he were ever loving, why would he create this world at all? Why would we have to endure trial after trial? Why can't we just have paradise? Here's another problem I have with God -- there is no sense of discipline with the power he has. He is like a child. He leads Moses around for 40 years on a fruitless journey, then denies him the promised land. If God is merciful and loving, why do this?

Here's what I believe: There is no God. It's a mass delusion we created for the sake of not feeling lonely. If you go by the law of occam's razor, then God doesn't exist. Ask yourself, which is most probable: An all-knowing, powerful, being with no beginning and no end, on a complete whim, created everything we have, the entire universe, requited our undying worship while simultaneously leaving no proof of his existence. Or that he doesn't exist, and that there is no creator, just biological accidents, and our creativity at work. Which is most probable?

I understand the appeal of God, but stepping back and facing reality, he's too colorful. He makes us all so different, yet demands us all to be the same. He's good and merciful, yet allows of immense pain to carry on. The idea of an eternal paradise after this is infinitely appealing purely because we as a species have a fear of the unknown.

tl;dr
God doesn't exist by occam's razor, there is no free will if there is an all-knowing God, and we are just biological accidents who created God to escape our loneliness.

sephyboy:
He is, as a creature, insecure and jealous. He requires you to kneel

So he's all...

Kneel Before God!

Sorry... had to go there.

LoFr3Eq:

sephyboy:
He is, as a creature, insecure and jealous. He requires you to kneel

So he's all...

Kneel Before God!

Sorry... had to go there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9bmFDddpio
The Hulk don't approve of God's conduct!

That's just the thing though.
It's only logical that God is above logic, else he would not be God. Therefore human logic does not apply to him. Therefore it is valid to argue:
God exists.

Therefore God exists.

supersaiyen312:
That's just the thing though.
Think about it guys.
It's only logical that God is above logic, else he would not be God. Therefore human logic does not apply to him. Therefore it is valid to argue:
God exists.

Therefore God exists.

And because you just used human logic to prove god's existance, you also disproved god's existance (as now it would not be above logic...)

LoFr3Eq:
But people don't go around slaughtering in the name on Multiverse Hypothesis do they?

There is no observable reason to believe in a god or gods, and no that we've covered that, we must ask a more important question...

If there is no way of knowing about, or observing the effects of a god or gods, then why does it even matter?

And another thing... Universal constants? Surely you know that matter is made of sub-atomic particles yes? and they are made of quarks? and everything is made of strings? and because of the way strings behave, things act harmoniously etc.

"God did it" is a terrible explanation of the universe.

Listen, I don't care for arguing on this subject. I did it way to much when I was younger and I've heard them all. But on a final note by universal constants I am referring to these things which are all within a very small gap to allow basically anything to form besides random bits. On that note I am making my exit on this thread. Sorry but this is one argument that never goes anywhere productive and just pisses people off for no reason.

Shock and Awe:
Listen, I don't care for arguing on this subject. I did it way to much when I was younger and I've heard them all. But on a final note by universal constants I am referring to these things which are all within a very small gap to allow basically anything to form besides random bits. On that note I am making my exit on this thread. Sorry but this is one argument that never goes anywhere productive and just pisses people off for no reason.

OK, well I don't disagree that those are universal constants for our universe.

However, have you ever considered that (since you are so keen on bringing up multiverse theory) ours is the only universe with those constants, and that there could be infinitely more universes with different constants, and we happen to be in one with desirable constants, which means life can exist?

Is God real? As classically defined by mainstream Christianity, no. There are far too many logical inconsistencies, not least between the description of God and the nature of the universe.

Is there a deity out there close enough in nature to the Christian god to be identified as being at least roughly the same being? Perhaps, perhaps not. While I think the odds are quite low, for the time being at least no one can know for certain either way.

My issue is not with the possibility of a supernatural element to this universe, or even with the possibility of a distinct divine being that incredibly subtly, guides our lives. My issue (ranging in order from mildly irritating to making me want to form a lynch mob) is with:
-Individuals that claim to know for certain just because. (that goes for strong Atheists who lack solid arguments as well by the way)
-Individuals that claim to know the mind or intent of such a being
-Individuals that take advantage of others who believe.

As a negative atheist, I must say "Maybe not". But my actual stance would be more along the lines of "99.9% sure that a deity(s) are completely improbable of existing".

reonhato:

Shock and Awe:
I like to think so. This is partially due to the fact the universe seems tailor made not just for carbon based life, but for really anything other then dust to exist in the first place. That and honestly I like the idea, but that's just a personal preference not an argument. Is it possible there isn't? I suppose so. But again; I like to think differently. I also personally dislike arguing about it. I've heard every argument in the book for both sides and I don't care for the hostility it often brings.

yep tailor made, that is why a super large majority of space is about as close to a vacuum as one can get, that is it contains nothing but a couple of hydrogen atoms per m3. to say the universe is tailor made is simply ridiculous

Average density of the universe is about .2 H atoms per meter cubed.

To the guy above: observer phenomenon. Of course the universe allows for easy life in some places. If it didn't you wouldn't be standing around remarking on the fact would you?

Probably not. And if a god existed, then I'm pretty sure it would be a Deistic one, not a Theistic one. The world just doesn't provide any evidence for an interventionistic god and the cosmological argument, even if you were to accept it, only gets you as far as Deism.

Is god real? Which god did you mean, now?

Polarity27:
Is god real? Which god did you mean, now?

The one, the true God, of course.
Not just one of those fictional, man-made gods.
_{Sorry, I just had to. *smirks*}

This one is just as real as the one I presume you're talking about, OP.

Only cuter.

And rather than believing in her, she has to believe in you. Otherwise, it is you that doesn't exist.

Come to think of it she's way more scary than Yahweh...

Highly, highly unlikely.

And if God did exist, it's even more unlikely we had contact with it.

Most likely scenario would be that this universe runs on a computer, and "God" is the programmer and overseer. That possibility is at least remotely likely.

The Abrahamic god, the Christianity and Islam and ect. version? Pretty much impossible. The odds are against it by a number bigger than Graham.

supersaiyen312:
That's just the thing though.
It's only logical that God is above logic, else he would not be God. Therefore human logic does not apply to him. Therefore it is valid to argue:
God exists.

Therefore God exists.

You trying to use some pre-suppositional apologetics here? If so, you're doing it wrong, and also... pre-supp is possibly the worst thing apologetics has come up with ever.

Stagnant:
In one case, IIRC, they completely got rid of gravity!

While I can easily imagine life existing and evolving in a non-gravity environment just fine, I'd like to know where the heavier chemical elements are supposed to come from in this model. As Sagan said, we are star stuff, and many of the chemicals we're made up of stem from 1st and 2nd generation stars, in the cores of which the heavier elements were forged. How do we go from a universe filled with only hydrogen to heavier elements needed for metabolisms to exist without stars to make them? Mind, I'm not arguing against that notion as an argument from ignorance, I'm genuinely interested to know what mechanism they envisioned a star-less universe to have for forming heavier elements.

evilneko:

This one is just as real as the one I presume you're talking about, OP.

Only cuter.

And rather than believing in her, she has to believe in you. Otherwise, it is you that doesn't exist.

Come to think of it she's way more scary than Yahweh...

so if your god has sex does that mean she is mind-fucking herself? terrible joke i know but i had to get that out there.

No.

Glad we got that out of the way. You want to buy a Unicorn foal though? It's really cute and shits gold all over the place, total mess to clean up, but lil' Corny here is still a good investment.

Imperator_DK:
No.

Glad we got that out of the way. You want to buy a Unicorn foal though? It's really cute and shits gold all over the place, total mess to clean up, but lil' Corny here is still a good investment.

That's bullshit, unicorns don't shit gold, away with you snakeoil salesman.

LoFr3Eq:
But people don't go around slaughtering in the name on Multiverse Hypothesis do they?

I do.

OT: I think it's pretty unlikely, but sure, a god could be real.

Shock and Awe:
I like to think so. This is partially due to the fact the universe seems tailor made not just for carbon based life, but for really anything other then dust to exist in the first place. That and honestly I like the idea, but that's just a personal preference not an argument. Is it possible there isn't? I suppose so. But again; I like to think differently. I also personally dislike arguing about it. I've heard every argument in the book for both sides and I don't care for the hostility it often brings.

Anything outside our atmosphere will kill you instantly if unprotected. A untold number of things there are no protection from. A lot of things inside it will do it to. Not to mention meteorites and comets that has been causing havoc to our planet. We drift to close to a supernova, and it is goodby. Black holes, gamma ray bursts, Ultra powerful magnetic neutron stars that play hide and seek with astronomers and a lot more. The universe is violent and brutal. How can you say it is tailor made?