The Pentagon was found to have been running a course that ran counter to the assurances by several US officials that the US was at war with Muslim extremists, and not the religion itself.
One of the teachers, Lieutenant Colonel Matthew Dooley, even spoke of scenarios in which the holy cities of Mecca and Medina could be targeted, with mention made to the nuclear strikes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
"They hate everything you stand for and will never coexist with you, unless you submit," the instructor, Lieutenant Colonel Matthew Dooley, said in a presentation last July for the course at Joint Forces Staff College in Norfolk, Virginia. The college, for professional military members, teaches mid-level officers and government civilians on subjects related to planning and executing war.
Dooley also presumed, for the purposes of his theoretical war plan, that the Geneva conventions that set standards of armed conflict, are "no longer relevant".
He adds: "This would leave open the option once again of taking war to a civilian population wherever necessary (the historical precedents of Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki being applicable to the Mecca and Medina destruction decision point)."
His war plan suggests possible outcomes such as "Saudi Arabia threatened with starvation ... Islam reduced to cult status".
This isn't a way of understanding and combating extremism, it is simple racism. The military is teaching its soldiers to hate Islam as a whole, something that will only cause increased friction when these men and women deploy to Afghanistan.
Dooley is suggesting that an ideal situation is one in which Islam is eradicated as a religion. Now i may be wrong but isn't defence of the faith one of Islam's main tenets? Being seen to be at war with Islam as a whole is likely to cause more people to see the US, and the rest of the Western world, as an enemy - something our soldiers do not need.
Now that this is out, how long before the shit-storm from the Muslim world begins?
What? Edit: Authority figures in the USA ignoring established international law whenever it suits them and making gross generalisations about very large and diverse groups of people, as well as getting completely the wrong end of the stick and seeing extremists as the rule rather than the exception? This has never happened before.
Except it has, because people are dumb. This is why the rest of the world sees Americans as militaristic racists. Perhaps if you got rid of the vocal minority of bigots and morons then maybe your armed forces would be seen as an actual force for good, not just Cold War fantasists who don't understand the difference between a very small group of people and an entire religion.
Your thread title is wrong. The US military didn't teach it, one idiot teacher did. A teacher who found his course cancelled immediately after a complaint was filed and who is now suspended from teaching.
From the Guardian link:
The joint staff suspended the course after it had received a student complaint, and within days Dempsey ordered all service branches to review their training to ensure other courses do not use anti-Islamic material.
On Thursday, Dempsey said the material in the Norfolk course was counter to American "appreciation for religious freedom and cultural awareness".
"It was just totally objectionable, against our values, and it wasn't academically sound," Dempsey said. "This wasn't about ... pushing back on liberal thought; this was objectionable, academically irresponsible."
Doesn't sound like the military was on side at all with this teacher.
DJjaffacake: What? US authorities ignoring established international law whenever it suits them and making gross generalisations about very large and diverse groups of people, as well as getting completely the wrong end of the stick and seeing extremists as the rule rather than the exception? This has never happened before.
Could be, or that instructor could a Christian fruitcake who hates other religions and can't set that aside on the job.
The fact that the course was suspended when a student complained suggests that to be the case.
Also, the problem is, he's not entirely wrong. What he described is indeed the way Islam speaks of spreading itself. Now that should be interpreted a bit like the bible's old testament; it's there, but a majority no longer take it seriously, but when it suits, it may be used. And that's where the guy went way off course. And much like you already said the weak action taken against him does little to bolster the image of the US armed forces.
DJjaffacake: Perhaps if you got rid of the vocal minority of bigots and morons then maybe your armed forces would be seen as an actual force for good, not just Cold War fantasists who don't understand the difference between a very small group of people and an entire religion.
What did I just read? I don't...
The US armed forces as a whole should be seen as Cold War fantasists because of a vocal minority... BECAUSE they can't tell the difference between a group and a minority within that group?
Yeah, this is such a sensationalist thread. I hate to even say it, but I agree with Blablahb.
Blablahb: Could be, or that instructor could a Christian fruitcake who hates other religions and can't set that aside on the job.
The fact that the course was suspended when a student complained suggests that to be the case.
Also, the problem is, he's not entirely wrong. What he described is indeed the way Islam speaks of spreading itself. Now that should be interpreted a bit like the bible's old testament; it's there, but a majority no longer take it seriously, but when it suits, it may be used. And that's where the guy went way off course. And much like you already said the weak action taken against him does little to bolster the image of the US armed forces.
This is why the rest of the world sees Americans as militaristic racists. Perhaps if you got rid of the vocal minority of bigots and morons then maybe your armed forces would be seen as an actual force for good, not just Cold War fantasists who don't understand the difference between a very small group of people and an entire religion.
DJjaffacake: Perhaps if you got rid of the vocal minority of bigots and morons then maybe your armed forces would be seen as an actual force for good, not just Cold War fantasists who don't understand the difference between a very small group of people and an entire religion.
What did I just read? I don't...
The US armed forces as a whole should be seen as Cold War fantasists because of a vocal minority... BECAUSE they can't tell the difference between a group and a minority within that group?
Is there something I'm missing here?
My point is that the vocal minority seem to need an ideological enemy to replace communism, and want to fight a big first half of the 20th century style war rather than actually develop their methods to keep up with modern insurgency warfare. The first part of that sentence and the second part are only loosely connected. And I didn't say they should be seen as Cold War fantasists, I said they are.
Najos: Yeah, this is such a sensationalist thread. I hate to even say it, but I agree with Blablahb.
Blablahb: Could be, or that instructor could a Christian fruitcake who hates other religions and can't set that aside on the job.
The fact that the course was suspended when a student complained suggests that to be the case.
Also, the problem is, he's not entirely wrong. What he described is indeed the way Islam speaks of spreading itself. Now that should be interpreted a bit like the bible's old testament; it's there, but a majority no longer take it seriously, but when it suits, it may be used. And that's where the guy went way off course. And much like you already said the weak action taken against him does little to bolster the image of the US armed forces.
This is why the rest of the world sees Americans as militaristic racists. Perhaps if you got rid of the vocal minority of bigots and morons then maybe your armed forces would be seen as an actual force for good, not just Cold War fantasists who don't understand the difference between a very small group of people and an entire religion.
I suspect this is a bad idea but I'll bite. Why is that hilarious?
I love bashing the US military as much as the next person, but they shut it down at the first complaint and ordered complete reviews to make sure it wasn't happening elsewhere. Seems like they did exactly what is expected of them in such instances.
DJjaffacake: I suspect this is a bad idea but I'll bite. Why is that hilarious?
It pretty much got covered above. You're pointing out that Americans are seen in a poor light because of a vocal minority that hates on a whole group because of a vocal minority. You're sort of criticizing and justifying the behavior at the same time, implying that it is understandable that people hate on Americans because of their vocal minority, but unreasonable for Americans to hate on Islam for their vocal minority.
I dig, you probably weren't trying to present it that way, but that's how I read it. I just find it funny.
Amnestic: I love bashing the US military as much as the next person, but they shut it down at the first complaint and ordered complete reviews to make sure it wasn't happening elsewhere. Seems like they did exactly what is expected of them in such instances.
Very much this. Good on them for acting quickly and decisively.
DJjaffacake: I suspect this is a bad idea but I'll bite. Why is that hilarious?
It pretty much got covered above. You're pointing out that Americans are seen in a poor light because of a vocal minority that hates on a whole group because of a vocal minority. You're sort of criticizing and justifying the behavior at the same time, implying that it is understandable that people hate on Americans because of their vocal minority, but unreasonable for Americans to hate on Islam for their vocal minority.
I dig, you probably weren't trying to present it that way, but that's how I read it. I just find it funny.
BUT! I wasn't saying people should see it that way, I was saying they do. I see your point though, I just can't think of another way to phrase it.
Hopefully he gets kicked out. When its a young private spreading discriminatory shit like this I want him reprimanded, but I can understand why he's doing it. This is a Lieutenant Colonel and he's an instructor. He should fucking know better.
DJjaffacake: I suspect this is a bad idea but I'll bite. Why is that hilarious?
It pretty much got covered above. You're pointing out that Americans are seen in a poor light because of a vocal minority that hates on a whole group because of a vocal minority. You're sort of criticizing and justifying the behavior at the same time, implying that it is understandable that people hate on Americans because of their vocal minority, but unreasonable for Americans to hate on Islam for their vocal minority.
I dig, you probably weren't trying to present it that way, but that's how I read it. I just find it funny.
BUT! I wasn't saying people should see it that way, I was saying they do. I see your point though, I just can't think of another way to phrase it.
Kendarik: Your thread title is wrong. The US military didn't teach it, one idiot teacher did.
I'm going to disagree here on what may be a bit of pedantry but I think it's important to keep in mind. Militaries are designed to institutions where individuals don't express individuality- everyone follows orders in order to get the job done in the way it was meant to be done. You don't assault the enemy position the way you want to, you assault it the way you are ordered to.
So for this class to have been ended because a student complained is very problematic. It means there is insufficient oversight in what is being taught in our military classrooms. I have to file multiple copies of my syllabus for approval every session- and the worst my students will ever do with what I teach them is use words. Why isn't at least this level of oversight being provided for military academies?
So I don't buy that this one guy can be thrown under the bus. There was a systemic failure for him to be allowed to teach his bigotry, even if the military did the right thing once the complaint was raised.
I say this actually not to bash the military. I know that this bigoted teacher does not represent the norm or even a significant portion of the the military instructors in the US. However, I have also heard about undercurrents of anti-Islam "crusade mentality" in some parts of our military, particularly as some militant Christian groups attempt to recruit soldiers. I don't know how significant this problem is, but anti-Muslim bigotry is pretty rife in the US population as it is, so it strains credibility to just assume it is entirely absent from the military. Leadership needs to be more proactive to make sure that our military is taking actions that reflect the real needs of Americans. The stakes are too high to wait for complaints.
Shock and Awe: 1. This was one very stupid officer. He was not executing military policy.
Remains to be seen. US soldiers are known to act in a way that seems in accordance with his classes. Something must've caused that.
(although myself I'm more likely to go for lack of training than any training as the cause of that)
Shock and Awe: 2. He was canned when it was complained about. So whats the problem?
I wouldn't call re-assigning him to another project 'being canned'. Being canned is dishonourable discharge for conduct unbecoming of an officer.
And that's kind of what you'd expect as the first move if someone's caught spreading 'clash of cultures' type of hatespeech from a position of authority. He was basically teaching people to hate. And with an alarming rate of succes too, considering the article speaks of 'complaint' in a singular, and not 'a rain of complaints' that you'd expect.
Let me tell you something, if you went teaching 'so, y'know soldiers of the cross, all Muslims are your enemy" at the military officer academy I attended, you'd be lucky if even one person in the class didn't take it up with your commander.
Same thing in the US, and it's continued for who knows how long before one person complained? What on earth?
There will always be incompetent morons in positions of authority, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the entire organisation behaves like them. I also wonder how long it took for this to be identified as an issue; I'm guessing not that long.
This is just the latest in a long disturbing line of blatant bigotry towards Muslims popping up in the U.S armed forces. Honestly, i'm surprised we're JUST NOW hearing about it and it seems to be a smaller problem than what i envisioned. Still, this mentality is rampant and needs to be addressed.
[snip] This isn't a way of understanding and combating extremism, it is simple racism[.
Do you even understand what the term racism means? By definition even wanting to wipe the followers of any idea off the Earth is not racism. Ideas are not genetic. You are not born with unalterable characteristics as a result of an idea. If the documents had said Arabs/Asians/Europeans etc it would be racist. If it mentions christians/buddhists/communists/KKK etc it would not be racist. See the difference?? Please learn to understand the words that you use, otherwise you may appear foolish.
[snip] This isn't a way of understanding and combating extremism, it is simple racism[.
Do you even understand what the term racism means? By definition even wanting to wipe the followers of any idea off the Earth is not racism. Ideas are not genetic. You are not born with unalterable characteristics as a result of an idea. If the documents had said Arabs/Asians/Europeans etc it would be racist. If it mentions christians/buddhists/communists/KKK etc it would not be racist. See the difference?? Please learn to understand the words that you use, otherwise you may appear foolish.
While you are technically correct, attacking Islam is often a backhanded way of attacking Arabs (or Persians, but most people don't make that distinction).
And then there are people who flat out seem to think "arab" and "muslim" are interchangeable words.
[snip] This isn't a way of understanding and combating extremism, it is simple racism[.
Do you even understand what the term racism means? By definition even wanting to wipe the followers of any idea off the Earth is not racism. Ideas are not genetic. You are not born with unalterable characteristics as a result of an idea. If the documents had said Arabs/Asians/Europeans etc it would be racist. If it mentions christians/buddhists/communists/KKK etc it would not be racist. See the difference?? Please learn to understand the words that you use, otherwise you may appear foolish.
While you are technically correct, attacking Islam is often a backhanded way of attacking Arabs (or Persians, but most people don't make that distinction).
And then there are people who flat out seem to think "arab" and "muslim" are interchangeable words.
In context it could very well be racism.
In support of what Thaluikain has said; given the somewhat provocative imagery used, it almost certainly is racist.
It's not quite as simple as dividing anti-religious sentiment and conventional racism. A good example is Judaism. Anti-semitism is often considered to be racism as a result of the particular breed of genetic and heritage based anti-semitism practised by the Nazis. Equally, you'd regard the EDL or the BNP as racist because in addition to wanting Islam banished from Britain (which under the strict definition isn't racist) they also mix in a load of anti-ethnic vitriol as well. The two so often overlap that it's difficult in practice to separate ethnic and religious discrimination, so sneering at Karma isn't really fair.
[snip] This isn't a way of understanding and combating extremism, it is simple racism[.
Do you even understand what the term racism means? By definition even wanting to wipe the followers of any idea off the Earth is not racism. Ideas are not genetic. You are not born with unalterable characteristics as a result of an idea. If the documents had said Arabs/Asians/Europeans etc it would be racist. If it mentions christians/buddhists/communists/KKK etc it would not be racist. See the difference?? Please learn to understand the words that you use, otherwise you may appear foolish.
While most definitions of racism don't cover religion most people who would read what he said would define it as racism. Yes it's probably closer to religious discrimination but the definition of words change over time, so racism is a reasonable description.
Besides I would argue that when this man spoke of Muslims he was not referring to black Muslims from countries like Niger or white Muslims from Serbia; he was most likely talking about about the 'typical' Muslim - i.e. an Arab. In which case I would say that racism was a an accurate description.
Kendarik: Your thread title is wrong. The US military didn't teach it, one idiot teacher did. A teacher who found his course cancelled immediately after a complaint was filed and who is now suspended from teaching.
Well it's part of a larger problem with the military, so many new stories arise each month about some "Isolated" incident where US soldiers break international law and/or do something incredibly racist. First Don't Ask, Don't Tell, then Guantanamo Bay, then the reports of the high rate of rape in the military then all cases of killing civilians which don't get investigated, all of which implicate a much larger portion of the military. It isn't far fetched to suspect this isn't necessarily an isolated incident, but a bit far off to outright assume so.
Kendarik: Your thread title is wrong. The US military didn't teach it, one idiot teacher did.
I'm going to disagree here on what may be a bit of pedantry but I think it's important to keep in mind. Militaries are designed to institutions where individuals don't express individuality- everyone follows orders in order to get the job done in the way it was meant to be done. You don't assault the enemy position the way you want to, you assault it the way you are ordered to.
So for this class to have been ended because a student complained is very problematic. It means there is insufficient oversight in what is being taught in our military classrooms. I have to file multiple copies of my syllabus for approval every session- and the worst my students will ever do with what I teach them is use words. Why isn't at least this level of oversight being provided for military academies?
So I don't buy that this one guy can be thrown under the bus. There was a systemic failure for him to be allowed to teach his bigotry, even if the military did the right thing once the complaint was raised.
I say this actually not to bash the military. I know that this bigoted teacher does not represent the norm or even a significant portion of the the military instructors in the US. However, I have also heard about undercurrents of anti-Islam "crusade mentality" in some parts of our military, particularly as some militant Christian groups attempt to recruit soldiers. I don't know how significant this problem is, but anti-Muslim bigotry is pretty rife in the US population as it is, so it strains credibility to just assume it is entirely absent from the military. Leadership needs to be more proactive to make sure that our military is taking actions that reflect the real needs of Americans. The stakes are too high to wait for complaints.
I agree there was a total failure of oversight (and/or problems with his direct report). However, that I would consider a separate (although serious) problem than "the military was teaching hate". We also don't even know if he was teaching to the syllabubs or if he went totally off, or how long he was teaching that agenda. In the absence of facts, its only reasonable to assume one bigot + army procedural incompetence (and not even that if it was the first time I taught this)
Cakes: Man, I'm just trying to imagine the unbelievable shit storm that would come down if someone were to actually bomb Mecca.
You know, at that point the bigots would be right, they really would have all of Islam against them. Heck, I suspect most of the world would be against them. No one with a brain wants to deliberately destroy historic and/or high religious sites. Even when the arabs used the Hakotel as a garbage dump they weren't so stupid as rip it down.
Kendarik: Your thread title is wrong. The US military didn't teach it, one idiot teacher did. A teacher who found his course cancelled immediately after a complaint was filed and who is now suspended from teaching.
Well it's part of a larger problem with the military, so many new stories arise each month about some "Isolated" incident where US soldiers break international law and/or do something incredibly racist. First Don't Ask, Don't Tell, then Guantanamo Bay, then the reports of the high rate of rape in the military then all cases of killing civilians which don't get investigated, all of which implicate a much larger portion of the military. It isn't far fetched to suspect this isn't necessarily an isolated incident, but a bit far off to outright assume so.
The US military, at last count, has about 2 million active duty regular army and reserves. They also employ mercs (although they give them prettier names like "civilian contractor".
So tell me, in a population of 2 million people, many of which have recently been in combat, wouldn't it be more shocking if bad things didn't show up? How many racists do you think there are in a group of 2 million random civilians? How many rapists in 2 million random civilians? Bullies?
Heck, a serious crime a week in a population of that size would be unbelievably low.
Kendarik: I agree there was a total failure of oversight (and/or problems with his direct report). However, that I would consider a separate (although serious) problem than "the military was teaching hate".
But this is the thing- the military is supposed to be a singular organization. You don't have individuals who do things wrong (or if you do, your give them a dishonorable discharge for disobeying orders). Thus, yes, in one class, the military was teaching hate. Just like how if a bomber accidentally drops a bomb on the wrong target, the military bombed the wrong target. This principle that we must always respect the military as a collective whole- that simply wearing the uniform makes you deserve kudos from everyone around- but then when anyone screws up it's always an individual and never collective responsibility is rubbish.
We also don't even know if he was teaching to the syllabubs or if he went totally off, or how long he was teaching that agenda.
That's true. But there are already signs that this isn't a localized problem.
And once again, I remind you I'm not holding this position to bash the military. I'm holding this position because I'm very worried about the US military. I'm worried about how little care goes to our soldiers compared to the difficult jobs that they do. They deserve top-notch training, training that makes them experts in achieving the mission set out for them. The only way to get them the training they deserve is to not reflexively defend the military and help them cover their ass. The only way to solve this problem is to vigorously root out these hate-mongers wherever they hide. And if that means members of our armed forces have to take a tough look in the mirror, so be it.
So tell me, in a population of 2 million people, many of which have recently been in combat, wouldn't it be more shocking if bad things didn't show up? How many racists do you think there are in a group of 2 million random civilians? How many rapists in 2 million random civilians? Bullies?
Heck, a serious crime a week in a population of that size would be unbelievably low.
Except here's the problem, it happens alot more than it does in the civilian population and the crimes go unpunished the majority of the time.
The fact that it occurs much more frequently in terms of rapes per female soldier in the military is enough to raise at least a thought that perhaps some reform is needed. Then there's Guantanamo Bay and those massacres of civilians that seem to keep coming into the national spotlight every other month but are ignored as "isolated incidents" and that those people were just being "kids".
So tell me, in a population of 2 million people, many of which have recently been in combat, wouldn't it be more shocking if bad things didn't show up? How many racists do you think there are in a group of 2 million random civilians? How many rapists in 2 million random civilians? Bullies?
Heck, a serious crime a week in a population of that size would be unbelievably low.
Except here's the problem, it happens alot more than it does in the civilian population and the crimes go unpunished the majority of the time.
I'm definitely not against crime reduction in the military, but that last part is the rule, not the exception, considering percentage of crimes that actually end up receiving a punishment among the civilian population is in the single digits.
Kendarik: I agree there was a total failure of oversight (and/or problems with his direct report). However, that I would consider a separate (although serious) problem than "the military was teaching hate".
But this is the thing- the military is supposed to be a singular organization. You don't have individuals who do things wrong (or if you do, your give them a dishonorable discharge for disobeying orders).
That's a HUGE oversimplification. They don't just kick people out if they do wrong, it depends on the offense and the response is proportional, just like in civilian justice and civilian jobs. To expect individuals don't do wrong and stay within the organization are foolish, there would be no one left in the army if that was the standard - humans do things wrong.
Thus, yes, in one class, the military was teaching hate. Just like how if a bomber accidentally drops a bomb on the wrong target, the military bombed the wrong target.
I suppose that's technically correct, but a deceptive statement. The bomber crew made a mistake. By saying the military did you are making it seem deliberate.
This principle that we must always respect the military as a collective whole- that simply wearing the uniform makes you deserve kudos from everyone around- but then when anyone screws up it's always an individual and never collective responsibility is rubbish.
No, we respect those in the military not for the group but for the individual. That individual on their made a choice to serve to protect us, even though it puts their life on the line. They get respect for the same reason I respect police officer, and even more so, firemen.
[quote]And once again, I remind you I'm not holding this position to bash the military. I'm holding this position because I'm very worried about the US military. I'm worried about how little care goes to our soldiers compared to the difficult jobs that they do. They deserve top-notch training, training that makes them experts in achieving the mission set out for them. The only way to get them the training they deserve is to not reflexively defend the military and help them cover their ass. The only way to solve this problem is to vigorously root out these hate-mongers wherever they hide. And if that means members of our armed forces have to take a tough look in the mirror, so be it.
I agree with this totally.
Maybe we are on the same page and the difference is just semantics. :)
The Pentagon was found to have been running a course that ran counter to the assurances by several US officials that the US was at war with Muslim extremists, and not the religion itself.
One of the teachers, Lieutenant Colonel Matthew Dooley, even spoke of scenarios in which the holy cities of Mecca and Medina could be targeted, with mention made to the nuclear strikes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
This isn't a way of understanding and combating extremism, it is simple racism. The military is teaching its soldiers to hate Islam as a whole, something that will only cause increased friction when these men and women deploy to Afghanistan.
Dooley is suggesting that an ideal situation is one in which Islam is eradicated as a religion. Now i may be wrong but isn't defence of the faith one of Islam's main tenets? Being seen to be at war with Islam as a whole is likely to cause more people to see the US, and the rest of the Western world, as an enemy - something our soldiers do not need.
Now that this is out, how long before the shit-storm from the Muslim world begins?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/11/us-military-course-islam-enemy?INTCMP=SRCH
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/05/total-war-islam/