I support, but cannot seem to fathom transsexuality. Pages 1 2 3 NEXT | |
I can see your viewpoint on this, and your take on the matter is very well thought out. Gender roles shouldn't be important in society, and striving to break down the barriers is a worthy goal. Doubtless, men are better at some things than women, and vice-versa, but it's equally true that some women are better at things at which men are 'traditionally' supposed to be superior. In the end of the day it doesn't matter whether you're male or female, you're good at what you're good at and gender shouldn't figure into it. I'm bisexual myself, leaning toward pansexual, I don't put much thought into the idea of gender. I don't feel particularly masculine, or particularly feminine either. I've been regularly told I'm quite effeminate for a man, but I don't really put too much thought into it. It's who I am and that's fine by me. My thoughts on how the world should be are pretty much in line with your own. But I put emphasis on the word 'should.' The truth is that gender stereotypes are, for the time being, far too ingrained in human culture to be (easily) ignored for most people. Yes, non-physical gender characteristics are a social construct, but the society that constructed them is very much in the majority and will remain so for the foreseeable future. Therefore, it's only natural that some men or women feel trapped by the role that society has forced them into and feel that, in order to escape from that role, they need to change their gender entirely. Seen from that viewpoint, and not from the ideal that you or I would dearly love to be the reality, the option for becoming transgender is understandable and, in my opinion, necessary for some people to transcend the boundaries. In fact, the further the boundaries are blurred, the closer we can get to a world where gender doesn't actually matter and where people can be completely at ease with who they are (and who they like). | |
Price question: Why do you think that? Your OP goes on and on about how you disagree with societal gender roles and the definitions therein. Personally I'd agree, but as far as I understand Transexuality is something a bit more intricate than people just absorbing these gender roles and subconsciously assigning these roles to themselves, endorsing them so far that they even want to become its "personification" (for lack for a better word). While I don't have any hard data on the subject, the severity of the desire of these people suggests a biological component in there, too. I mean, these people don't get through all the trouble of surgery and stuff just on a whim now, do they? In this sense, your assertion above might very well be false: people who do not have such a disposition might have difficulties relating to this kind of feeling as they just don't have it in this case or magnitude. You already brought into play: I cannot fathom some rule 34 porn, so why should I be able to fathom this? Essentially its just another case of fascinating diversity among us humans I'd say. | |
Seems fair enough! There are things I can't relate to, whether it be certain sexual practices, the supremely selfish actions of certain powerful people, the idea of committing suicide or whatever. I'm sure there's things that I think that other people would find utterly alien. You personally aren't that bothered about gender, some people are. Personally, I find the idea of being female weird (not worse, I hasten to add, but weird nonetheless) I would enquire what you mean when you say "But I can't help but feel in conflict with their agenda as a feminist with an extremely non-essentialist, social constructionist, nurture leaning interpretation of behavior.' | |
Really getting sick of all these terms. Yeah you like to screw men and women, but don't want to be labeled and blah blah. Kind of get the feeling that you want a parade like gay people have. Alright so if that is the case, I will buy the balloons and streamers. Really have no problem baking a penis and vagina cake for all of us to enjoy. Don't want a petting zoo because you feel that labels the animals as being un free, then we can go on a trip and watch them in their natural habitat. | |
Yeah, transexuality is a bit of a harder issue to explain than homosexuality. I have a decent grasp on how it works, not because i'm one myself but because i'm familiar with unique mental differences misinterpreted as problems, but basically how it works is that a person is mentally what they aren't physically. That might seem like a benign issue and while traditional gender roles are something that should share the same fate as disco and my dignity, a constant feeling of feeling like something is wrong with you physically isn't something easily shaken. Mind you now that we can more or less fix the problem with hormone treatment and surgery, the big problem is society's reaction to transexuals. And... yeah. I also know a thing or two about bullshit labels. Society has a lot of growing up to do since acknowledging people as individuals instead of as a broad group based on an arbitrary label is still something we desperately need to get rid of. | |
I would agree with that. And I wouldn't disagree with a transsexual who feels the need to become a woman or man. Or the feeling they were "born that way". I feel a bit of conflict of interest, though, sometimes. As even within the transgender(ist?) and supportive community, there seems to be a little bit of conflict of interest between transsexuals and the rest of, or at least many other transgender people and feminists as well. You hear of controversy between feminists and transsexuals, and not just the ones saying stupid things and giving it a bad name. But mainstream feminism and transsexual forward groups seem to have conflictions. People who support transsexuality as the reality supporting just about every claim of nature, biological differences in gender. And people who could care less, using transsexuals as proof of the majority biological influence on gendered behavior. Feminism almost purely being of the social constructionist line of thinking. I can't count how many times I've gotten into an argument with someone about gender roles and how men and women and boys and girls shouldn't be expected to do such things. Only to hear people support their arguments with claims about "how can you disagree with this if transsexuals feel they were born this way? Clearly we are all very much born with our interests and desires that fit a gender role!" All the way down to claiming that Autism is an "extreme male brain" and that women's brains are not geared toward mathematics and the like. I agree that there must be a biological component to some gender things. But if the majority of people feel so strongly man or woman, boy or girl, independent of society. I am certainly not a part of that majority. I would like to think that feeling so strongly male or female biologically and the gender roles they were assigned, does not represent the vast majority of people. Who can change behaviors based upon upbringing. I want to support transsexuals in everything that they are, but I feel conflicted, I don't want to support the mentality that everyone is born as male and female as they are. Including other transgender people who do not particularly feel in a transsexual fashion, like genderfucks, genderqueers and drag kings and the like. I don't like feeling that supporting transsexuals in who they are is trying to pull me into a nature side of interpretation of humans that I do not feel or understand to be true. And I feel like some things that transsexuals support in order to justify to governments for their aid in treatment with hormones and the like, could actually be detrimental to gender equality in general. Some transsexuals co-opt the whole gay argument that "I was born homosexual and have no choice in the matter. Just like you feel like it's natural for you to be attracted to the opposite sex and you were born that way, right?" argument about men and women. I feel like I was born with a vagina and circumstances of having one, nothing more. And I don't want it to be considered an uncontestable fact that I and %99 of my kind are bad at math, but good at social interaction and speech, and prefer macho guys on my period because of it. Just for starters, I think this mentality is greatly harming the great amount of undiagnosed girls with Autism out there. Because it is seen as being an "extreme male brain" thing. | |
What exactly does this have to do with either politics or religion? | |
Have you changed your avatar recently? You seem like an established forumite and yet your "face" is incongruously unfamiliar. | |
Perhaps. OP:....sssoooo, what does this topic have to do with Politics or Religion? | |
Hmmm...without gender there'd be no transgender, and we should be working to get rid of gender? Ok, I'd (and various feminists, Dworkin for example) agree with that. In a perfectly egalitarian world, gender difference wouldn't matter. But I don't see how this is relevant to the world we actually live in. The gender binary isn't going away any time soon, it's going to be something that greatly affects people for quite some time. I don't see how transgendered people are different from cisgendered people in that. | |
Well, read the OP's response to my point - what she speaks about broaches the topic of movements which try to politicize issues: in this case, the attempt of the LBGT movement in defining the descriptor "gender" to allow the Transsexuals to have some representation in the public discourse while feminist movements try to do the exact opposite and dismantle the idea that sex should play a role in public discourse (e.g. jobs women can take and something like that) i.e. trying to de-label women so to speak.. So....while its not easy to see, I think, the thread has its place here.... | |
I'd say it is somewhat political in nature consider transgender rights in general are an issue. We also have a thread here quoting an article saying that being white, male, and heterosexual is irl easy mode. Both of these things are political, in a way. Even if they don't seem as directly as talking about a decision by a congress about taxes or the like. I would feel just as comfortable with this having been made in the off-topic section. But I somehow felt it less appropriate. If you feel strongly enough, I'm sure you can mention this thread to a moderator and have them move it to the appropriate section. I'd rather discuss the subject matter of this thread than whether it is on-topic enough or not. Edit: Ninja'd! | |
No worries, just curious. Hmm I never thought that feminist and transsexuals would have conflicting ideas. | |
Why not? Those groups split into factions and fight amongst themselves all the time, why not each other? | |
I guess I was naive about feminist and just assumed that they would naturally help others. Looking at it now, I guess it was silly of me to assume that they wouldn't fall prey to human nature(see:petty arguments and fighting) as well. | |
Okay thats a big one. You are broaching a LOT of different complicated issues here. I clearly see the conflict you are trying to highlight here, though. Instead of going into detail here now [1] I'll be brief[2]: What your question comes down to is, Give difference where difference is due. Differences or the lack thereof have to be decided pragmatically. You cannot make a human out of a dog no matter what some Otherkin might want you to believe. As stupid christian fundamentalist fuckheads always remind us, you also cannot get a homosexual person to suddenly get straight. You can't make a black person white and you cannot treat a severly handicapped person as if they were completely healthy (and I mean this on a fundamental level). On a basic level, these are differences we have to acknowledge no matter what political intricacies might be associated with them. On the other hand, we must ask HOW important these differences are, and where we should try to do away with them as thoroughly as possible: in terms of homosexuality for example there is no reason whatsoever to acknowledge this difference in a political dimension as its essentially a completely private matter which does not affect anyone in a harmful way. That it was done regardless was essentially to counteract the existing perception of this difference as harmful and unnatural. In terms of feminism this is also pretty clear cut as the difference associated with sex was used to put women in certain drawers and discriminate them thoroughly - its clear that they wanted to eliminate the negative perception of this difference by politicizing against the existence of sex as a discriminatory mechanism. For the most part this is mandated: binding women to the kitchen not only violates their human rights and right to self-determination but also rids societies of possible benefits provided by working women. However, to completely deny the existence of differences between sexes in the process is short-sighted: think of two overlapping bell-curves - they don't have a clear cut difference but their maxima are clearly distinct. That is how I personally view differences between sexes: They are there, most of the time: a majority of women, for example, have less muscular tissue than their male counterparts, making them, say , less qualified for work including heavy lifting for instance. I'll bet I could find some points regarding males, too. As such, one needs to acknowledge these differences where they are due and not where they aren't. Case in point: I'd advocate a womens quota in cooperate boards, programs to get more women into trying to get one of the MINT degrees but, as well, programs mediating males into traditional women's jobs. What about the gender question, then? Well as I said, equality between sexes can only go so far until we cross the natural line where these differences become important. This is the case with Transsexuals which define themselves over said difference. It does not conflict with the feminist movement as it treats another domain so to speak where the differences need to be ignored. Its also an extremely important question what exact problem we consider. For example nobody in the right mind would advocate males being needed to be treated by gynecologists due to gender equality.
Tehee :D | |
I knew a few transgendered people in LA (shitload of them in the goth/fetish scene) and they all seemed like good people so I don't see the problem. | |
I'm perfectly fine with transsexuality, and that if someone wants to 'correct' their body to be more in tune with their biological feelings, let them. I've come to think that (in a belief point of view) God created the human soul and nature, but creations(No matter who made it) being inherently flawed, one's person soul can be male or female, but nature made the mistake by creating the body opposite to what the soul is. | |
I'm on the same boat as you Miss Lilith, I don't particularly understand it but if people want to do it, well it's they're problem not mine, but speaking of labels, is it me or is their only purpose to divide people based on completely arbitrary thing? They also cause incorrect assumptions given by whatever label you may have been categorized under, and I get that they are needed to make descriptions easier, but I'm not sure they just seem to cause trouble. | |
I have no idea what causes transgenderism. I am not really sure what causes a person to "feel truly" anything either. Our brains are wired to seek answers by find patterns and categorizing. I can only guess that a person "feels truly" any particular way because they have decided to based on what ever feelings and experiences they possess regarding the characteristic. I am not sure how true this is but from what I understand many transgendered people do not feel "fully" "truly" to have resolved their gender issues after their surgeries. That they apparently still don't feel completely comfortable in their bodies. From my limited experience with transgendered people they often seem to try very hard to be the gender they feel. Most females I know don't seem very concerned about how "female" they look while the few transgendered males(to females) that I have met seemed awfully concerned about looking as "female" as possible. It leaves me with the impression of someone wanting to attain some ideal of femininity rather than simply "being" "female". I don't mean to insinuate that they simply have psychological problems. I mean if hypothetically a person really were to "be" "female" "on the inside" and be "stuck in a male body" (what ever these things mean exactly) along with living in a generally homophobic society that would certainly be likely to give the person psychological problems. Except for occasionally considering the possible causes and such it is not really anything I concern myself with in a meaningful way. I have no problem with transgendered people being who they are even if I don't "get it". I can see where you, as a more thoughtful and perhaps "active" feminist, would be more concerned with what it all means for you. I just don't take life that seriously. From what I have read going through with "gender reassignment" helps transgendered people psychologically and even if it does not completely resolve their identity issues it apparently leaves them far better off then not going through with it. For me that is enough, I don't feel the need to question the ethics of it any further. | |
as someone who has been through the whole process its not about conforming to societies views on gender, its more a case personally of correcting a birth defect. that said there are a heck of a lot of people that never go all the way with reassignment surgery and stop part of the way along the transition path where they are most comfortable | |
Trans-sexuality confuses me a little as well. I never seen gender roles as nothing more than social stereotypes. To say your a woman because you like to play with dolls and sow doesn't seem to be a good enough reason to say you should of been born a woman. Yes, its unfair that society looks down upon a boy who plays with dolls, but still. Taking it a step further a guy who prefers to have sex with guys is gay. Why push yourself into the role of a woman to have sex with a guy when you can just as easily be gay? Now possibly there are more scientific reasoning behind this. Based on brain patterns and the bridge between the left and right hemispheres. (Women have it more pronounced) In that way I suppose you could tell that you were "Born a man, but are a woman". | |
I have very similar issues to you. But talking to my trans friends, I don't think it's generally as simple as "feeling male/female". I think this was a common argument in the past when most people in society didn't have any kind of gender-based vocabulary (heck, the word "transexual" itself is a throwback to that era), but I think trans people are often very aware of specifically why they want to transition in ways which don't revolve around "being a real woman inside" or any such incomprehensible weirdness. The actual medical diagnosis which you still need in order to medically transition (at least in the UK, I can't speak for other countries) is called 'gender identity disorder'. The defining symptom, and the thing which makes it a "disorder", is not any particular form of self-knowledge about your true male/female nature, but the fact that your gender identity causes you marked distress or impedes your social functioning. Simply wanting to be of the opposite sex doesn't count, what we're still talking about are people who are not comfortable with the body they are born with to the point that it causes significant distress. Yeah, we might think that feeling that is unnecessary, but in the real world that doesn't make it easier. I do know one or two people who went into the process with some kind of image in their head that they would one day be a little housewife baking cookies or a big alpha male in a suit making business deals, but they dropped that pretty quickly. I think the days when doctors were anxious to make you "good enough" to fit in with your "proper" sex as quickly as possible are now safely over, I think the emphasis now is on reaching the point where you (personally) can exist without suffering this internal trauma, and the concerns of society are only relevant to the extent that they impact on your quality of life. Yes, this drives a lot of people to want to "fit in" as much as possible, but the same is true of a lot of gay men, lesbians, bisexuals and even feminists. It doesn't mean we're all dirty sellouts, it just means we want to live happy lives and while we won't compromise the things which are important, there are a lot of statements which might abstractly need to be made but which aren't really worth making at this point. One interesting person I met a while back was a lesbian whose (female) partner transitioned. She found it incredibly hard for a while because he seemed determined to basically live up to his really stereotypical image of "being a man" which was all about aggression and impulsivity and dominance, but as he became more secure in his masculinity he calmed down, developed a more sustainable identity and actually became more "feminine" than he'd felt able to be as a woman. The thing is though, he still felt happier physically as a man even though "being a man" wasn't what he thought it was at all, and I think that's the key thing. It's about being happy with your social persona and how society sees you, not necessarily about living up to a fixed ideal. Practically noone, trans or no, ever lives up to the ideal image of their gender. It's deliberately impossible. While as bisexuals it might be slightly easier for us to proclaim gender neutrality than for other people, there's no denying that gender remains hugely important, and actually I think it can be a very queer, very socially constructivist project to promote a world in which people are free to choose their own gender identity. Yes, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if I wear a red shirt or a blue shirt (or some shade of purple, or fuck it all and wear green), and yet if that's the choice in the wardrobe it's still one or the other and it might as well be the one I think is nicer. The kind of people who view sex as essential and who do believe in "real men" or "real women" tend to be as anti-trans as they are anti-feminist. In this regard, I think it's safe to say we're all on the same side. Sure, we'll never understand the people who talk about being "nature's mistake" or being "wired wrong", but I think a lot of trans people probably don't understand those people either. They're part of a different vocabulary. | |
it's really about feeling "right" in your skin. I am late for something, or i could go on and on, but i may be back if this convo is still going. Also, Homosexuality is a sexual preference, Transexuality is a expression of gender, not of sexuality. | |
Well, from what a friend who used to be a man and is now a woman told me, it's more like you're waking up and you're in a body with the wrong gender. It's connected to you obviously, but it's like somebody secretly switched your gender in the night and it's all wrong. She's also likened it to crossdressing, except you're the only one who thinks you are, and everybody else finds it normal. With that line of thinking it gets a bit easier to imagine, at least for me. More importantly, ever since he became she, she's much happier, in the place she wants to be, and to be honest, if I'd introduce you to her without telling you, you'd never ever know. The way I see it, imaginable or not, if it works like that in cases like hers, it must be true about the whole wrong body stuff, people can't change like that in behaviour if they didn't mean it with everything they are. | |
Well said! When I was younger I often had the feeling that I would have been a better fit as a woman than a man, and yet I am quite straight. I agree sexual orientation and sexual identity are not the same thing. When I was younger I didn't fit well with masculine gender roles. Until very recently I found it quite difficult even to relate to males who strongly fit the male gender role. I generally felt more at home at a table full of women talking about breastfeeding and periods than at a table full of men talking about football and their latest sexual conquests. I also found it quite difficult to date in a traditional male role but I did fine when I was with women who weren't so tradition-minded. Looking back it's kind of funny that I remember having crushes on then in-the-closet lesbian celebrities like Ellen Degeneres, a huge crush I had for literally years was on a woman who also turned out to be a lesbian, and the first girl I ever kissed is now a lesbian. Several other women I have strongly fallen for have hinted that they are lesbian or at least bi or bi-curious. I apparently have a pretty accurate gaydar for women as long as I'm not the one taking the reading. My feeling of being uncomfortable in my own skin though went beyond just gender, so I've never thought of myself as a woman trapped in a man's body or anything like that. As I got older I was able to have experiences and achievements I am proud of so to some extent I am more comfortable with who I am. And I've found that getting out of my birth culture relieves enough frustration for me to be quite happy so a lifetime of being an expatriate wanderer makes more sense to me than changing my body surgically. Besides, I'm passably attractive as a man[1] but I imagine I'd make an absolutely revolting woman. So I don't think becoming transgendered would really solve my problem fitting a gender role. It would just replace it with a different gender role I can't fit- namely the gender role that women should be pretty. [1] Even a little demigod-like under the right light | |
I was the same way. My best friends were all girls/women. I was forced into sports in highschool (my brother could have been a collegiate basketball player, and my father WAS), i hated every second of it. At parties, i always migrated to the girls, talking about girly stuff. You might be surprised what that lovely little substance called Estrogen can do to someone. I was a good looking man (Had LOTS of compliments, and got hit on a ton), but now, some people say i am pretty, i have a horrible self esteem issue. I think because i let myself go as i got older (depression), and started my transition really late. Hormones have done some nice things though; softened my features a bit, but i still have good cheek bones, and gave me lovely boobs (I wish they were bigger, but eh). Anyway, ya... transitioning may not and will not work for everyone. for me, it was a matter of life and death. I never cared about myself for 30 some odd years, smoked, drank, had lots of sex... it didn't matter with who. Now although losing weight is a battle, i care about my appearance more, i never leave the house without be dressed (as my wife would say)"To the nines", and a little makeup. Transitioning saved my life, but is not always right for everyone. [1] Even a little demigod-like under the right light | |
As I think others have probably said, transeexuality and being gay are completely different. | |
Ya i think i did, as well as someone else... Being gay is a sexual preference... being trans is an expression of gender (usually undeniable at some point). | |
You remind me of someone very close to my heart. My sister. Seems that you are a few short steps away from just referring to yourself as utterly genderless. In short, Queer. It confuses me that you find it hard to understand transgendered people when, in some regards, you share some traits. (Oh god, I am going to get flayed alive for that statement, Aint I? *sigh*) This is a huuuuge debate. And I do not know what I could add to it. Just... Props on the feminism I guess? Gender roles are a bunch of horseshit in general. That is why I like the Swedes, one of the only industrialised nations that is taking steps to annihilate gender roles from a young age. And it always seems that the parents who decide to refer to their children with neither male nor female pronouns and hide the biological gender of their children are Swedish. Gotta love Sweden. I should move. | |
as others have mentioned that even though sexual orientation and gender orientation get lumped together they are really seperate and in many cases unrelated issues. feel free to ask if you have any questions. i cant say i will have the answer but its a confusing thing for many people who are transgender let alone people who arent | |
I figure though it is somewhat similar to that. It's human nature to be confused by and sometimes afraid of things that we don't have to deal with personally. I'm not bashing you, per say because of that, you're claiming you want to understand and support so it's fine that you don't have all the answers right upfront.
There are some transpeople that don't really identify as male or female. They might for convenience sake to others, as their 'beard' so to speak. I'm one of them. It's a complicated issue, and not black and white, same as sexual orientation isn't just Gay Vs. Straight. But the fact you accept the label so easily because it's how your body presents itself, that's how most people work, so you're stating "I have a similar view to most people". Most people don't wrestle with their gender identity for the same reason most straight people don't constantly wrestle with the idea of being straight.
I'm glad that you don't care so much about gender roles. I don't think transsexuals do either, per say. They just believe they're the wrong gender than their DNA or genitals suggest otherwise. That doesn't mean they want to be payed less than a cisgendered man, or do housework, or be the 'gatherer' or something, either. Gender roles and gender identity are 2 separate things.
Again, gender roles and gender identity aren't the same thing. You can still identify as 'female' and do mathematics. You can identify as 'male' and still like to play with dolls (or 'action figures' or whatever). Transpeople don't necessarily care about gender roles either, they just identify as the other gender. That might sound like nonsense or stupid, but it is harder to understand if you're equating gender roles to gender or equating gender to sex. You said you can relate to a cisgendered person's ability to feel 'male' or 'female', even without accepting gender roles. For transpeople it's the same thing, except they don't feel they're the gender their genitals suggest. That's all.
Again, no doubt, I can see you being in conflict here. There's no conflict though. Some transpeople will accept the gender roles of their identity gender, but if they do so, it's to better fit in with that identity, not because they necessarily believe those roles are valid. Though some might, I have to admit, because nothing stops you from being a transperson and still being misogynistic or something either, I guess. But nothing in the generic 'agenda' for transsexual rights implies that you, as a female, have to go back to antiquated gender roles.
As a bisexual, you've probably seen or at least heard of instances of gay people being just as against you as straight might, because they might see you as either 'faking straight to be cool', or see you as just like, an infiltration into the lifestyle without being committed to it. And being told that you can't possibly be entirely 'for' a gay equal agenda because you can take off and vanish into a heterosexual lifestyle without a trace. But you'd know that there's no real conflict to be had; that gay rights and straight rights are in no way in conflict, and there's no zero sum game between the two, that gay marriage doesn't take away you right to marry a man. I would say that, honestly, sexuality labels themselves are just as stupid as gender roles. If people want to have sex or marry the same sex, whatever. I'd be rather better off without 'gay' 'straight' 'bisexual' people and better with just 'people who love, marry and have sex with whomever consenting adults they want to' without the label. That said, people identifying as gay and working for 'gay rights' in no way is directly against my goal of equality. I hope that clears that up a bit? (Slightly off topic, but I've always found transpeople easier to identify with than monosexual people. Transgender is an identity, so it's easy for me to imagine somebody with an identity than me; I have to deal with that all the time, considering that everybody else in the planet isn't 'me'. On the other hand, I can't think of a situation where I could 'love' somebody and it wouldn't work out because of their genitals in any configuration, including intersexed, was different than what I 'wanted'. Huh. Maybe being bisexual has turned me into a blind shipper or something.)
There's a very slight possibility that you're bigender or agendered too, like me. Again, I hate calling somebody out on that sort of thing like "I once fancied a man!" "You must be bisexual!" because that's bullshit. A single instance or misspoken word a trend does not make. But it might be something to consider?
Hah, I came to the same possible solution, though I hate saying so because I hate labeling somebody with only a glance at them. I hope she can forgive me assessing that with only 300 words. It's impossible to know somebody with that few words, but what I did see would suggest genderqueer. | |
Well, how many people can't fathom why anybody but five year old girls like My Little Pony? Now gender itself isn't as cut and dry as people think. Many, MANY people actually both genders on different biological levels. The Olympics have had a were colorful history of many athletes having all the outward characteristics of one gender, but had DNA or chemical functions of the other, say a woman the produces testostrone. Several of these people had their medals taken away after the fact, and one of them was driven to suicide after losing her gold after being declared a guy. Now (don't quote me on this, I am far from sure on this), I think some transsexual people actually have the brain of one gender but the body of the other. Having the other gender feels wrong because as far as your brain is concerned, it IS wrong. Your brain is very good at changing perceptions to fit reality or drive a person to do things to relive discomfort. | |
But that is a label.
That's pretty much what being transsexual is, though.
Neither can a lot of transsexuals, really.
I can't see why it's a conflict, except for your concept of nurture, which is as outdated as the notion that females are scientifically inferior.
And there are people trying to prove that gender identity is a social construct, the earth is flat, and the world isn't suffering from climate change. Not only does this seem hypocritical, but there are always dissenters. The difference in terms of males having visuo-spacial tendencies is that you can actually find peer-reviewed evidence on this, with verifiable data. You can easily replicate the results.
Oddly enough, I don't.
Almost 100% of the time, that's not really true. It's specious logic from people who have never experienced the other side of the coin. People who undergo HRT can tell you otherwise. The amount of stress just the hormonal difference makes is AMAZING. Maybe you're really agendered; most people are not, and simply use this sort of specious logic in the same way males believe females are treated equally in our society, or whites think blacks are equal, or straights think gays (and bisexuals) aren't really discriminated against. There's a pretty solid reason most people will reacto poorly to the loss of any part of their genitals, be it a testicle, a breast, a uterus, etc. There really is a core identification, and maybe you don't have it. You probably do, though. Most people don't miss the water until the well runs dry. Gender is a social construct. Gender identity is not. You seem to be confused because "gender" has two different meanings in modern society. Hi. I'm "Zachary Amaranth." I was born male, but identify as female. I was not "nurtured" to be feminine; quite the opposite. I suffer pretty much every single day of my life because there is a very real, medically acknowledged disconnect between my brain and my body. And if you try and tell me otherwise just because you don't understand it, how are you different from any homophobe out there who dismisses your sexuality? Or your value to society because of your genitals, for that matter? I am female and desire physical female traits but I am not feminine. I enjoy pro wrestling, action games and grew up playing with GI Joes and He-Man figures. I even balked at my little brother playing with Rainbow Brite and She-Ra. I also enjoy the occasional chick flick, skirts, painted nails and literature written in the female voice. I probably fit a lot of other stupid stereotypes on both sides, and guess what? None of those things have anything to do with my gender identity. I am and always will be who I am in terms of my likes and dislikes, no matter how gender boundaries are set up. It's completely irrelevant. And if you want to tear down those boundaries, be my guest. Just don't conflate them with personal gender identity and the condition of gender dysphoria. | |
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I know this is going to come with a resounding "duh". And maybe a "of course, just like I'm a heterosexual who can't fathom attraction to (my same sex)". But you'd be mistaken. It's not quite that.
It's just, however I was born, apparently, I can't possibly relate the idea of gender. I have never identified as one other than what I am seen. As in, I accept the label I have been given and don't feel like I have any desire to challenge it. It'd be a bunch of pointless work, really. Especially considering I don't care what gender people view me as.
And that's the thing. I don't identify as anything. I just accept the label I've been given and shrug it off. What I am, is a feminist staunchly against labels. I find gender roles incredibly painful and alienating, especially because they don't feel innate at all. I'm seen as female and I was born with a vagina, but I could seriously care less what gender I am, what genitalia I have, and what gender I am seen as. I just see myself as a person, and my body as nothing more than a container for my mind.
At least someone with a penis or vagina that clearly feels male or female, whether transsexual or not, can relate to and fathom their position of feeling male or female. I cannot possibly relate to this social construct. And, as a feminist, or something like a feminist, it is in my agenda to do away with gender roles as much as possible. And expose gender roles as extremely not biological. And not only that, but harmful.
I think they deserve all the rights in the world. Whether rights to surgery or hormone treatment or whatever. But I can't help but feel in conflict with their agenda as a feminist with an extremely non-essentialist, social constructionist, nurture leaning interpretation of behavior. A chill goes up my spine when I'm so much as reminded of Autism as the "extremely male brain" as if it were post-traumatic. And hearing statements like "men are visuo-spatial" is the same to me as someone saying that "Asians are smart"(by the way, there are many people in science trying to prove that Asian people are more visuo-spatial than other races).
As a bisexual, I can at least somewhat understand and relate to the idea of monosexuality. I don't share it, but I understand it. But with transsexuality, .... yeah, no. To me gender seems like it should be nothing more than an inconsequential label. And I cannot possibly or even remotely relate to the idea of "truly feeling female" or "truly feeling male" on the inside. I perfectly respect their right to be seen as a female or male or whatever sex. And take whatever hormones they like.
If I woke up tomorrow, and was a dude, I honestly just wouldn't care. Although I might try to make the news for some money. How do you all feel? Do you feel you are very clearly male or female on the inside? How do you relate to transsexuals and their experience of being "truly male" or "truly female" on the inside?