Illonois defeats "pro gay" bill

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Ultratwinkie:

1. Not from what I am hearing. I am seeing American Jews proclaiming anyone living with a Jew becomes a Jew. Mostly to try to "puff up" the population.

No. I don't know of ANY sect of Judiasm that says that. Oh, and I'm a convert, I researched it for several years before I converted so I have a clue about what I'm talking about. Conversion must be voluntary, and takes anywhere from 1 year to 10 years of study BEFORE your rabbi will refer you to the beit din (religious court) - and they don't refer everyone. Once there you have to convince the Rabbis/Ravs sitting on the court that you are a genuine convert of free will, who is well informed, and is committed to following the law. During the conversion process, and again at the beit din, you are REPEATEDLY discouraged from converting. This practice even applies in the most "forgiving" of branches, the Reform.

You are spreading misinformation.

Others try to argue that any non-whites can't be Jews.

No. And that's a bigotted statement on your part. Stop calling us racists, its a load of crap. NOTHING in the religion would suggest you can't be black and Jewish.

Maybe you missed it, but world wide Jewery rallied a couple decades ago to save the remanents of BLACK AFRICAN JEWS in a war zone and bring them back to Israel WHERE THEY BECAME CITIZENS UNDER THE LAW OF RETURN THAT ONLY APPLIES TO JEWS. There is no where stricter than Israel under that law when it comes to determining who is considered a Jew.

A whole lot of argument over something that shouldn't matter. Not even Deists argue this much, and they actually have something to argue about (over the definiton and function of Deism).

Who is a Jew matters very much. I know you will never understand why, I won't even try. But since you aren't Jewish, why don't you butt out of something you clearly don't understand and know nothing about. Most certainly don't spread around BS you read somewhere on the internet, because we know that turns people into fools.

2. I didn't specify where. I assumed you were in either America or Europe. The only news I heard from Israel is over religious rights over a sect that doesn't want to work and only read the Torah, but still receive welfare.

Wow, you have selective hearing about Israel.

Kendarik:
I agree completely. You both have the right to speak your mind, I've said that repeatedly.

Yes. And if that same hypothetical prick says something that is demonstrably wrong, I will say so. And if he says something that will hurt people, his bitch ass is mine. I've been on the receiving end of too much abuse to have even a shred of sympathy for anyone who would incite more of it. If they want to bring their faith into it, that's just one more point for me to go after.

DrVornoff:

And that's the problem with trying to institute a neutrality policy instead of keeping a flexible system of case-by-case determinations. By making a clear, a line has to be drawn somewhere. But you admit to how bloody difficult that is to do. So why making things harder unnecessarily when you can instead trust the professional education experts to, durr-hey, educate?

Look at the video I posted at the beginning of this thread before you tell me how great teachers are at their job. The screw up like everybody else, so no I won't just blindly trust them. As for the difficulty, its because the feelings of both sides are worth considering.

DrVornoff:

They instituted the policy for the same reason you want.

The they executed it poorly, because it was clearly only favoring one side, the religious.

DrVornoff:
People claimed that they see homosexuality as a sin. And for a teacher to come out in defense of homosexuality was interpreted as a violation of the religious freedom of the students who believed otherwise.

Then there should be a clarification made to the teachers and parents. The teachers are not there to lecture on how students should think about homosexuality, they are there to stop bullying. Children are entitled to consider it a sin, but they are not permitted to bully other children because they consider it a sin.

DrVornoff:
Things got really heated when the abuses and suicides started happening. The school moved to change the policy, but it was really just a lateral move. The LGBT activists said that the language was just as murky and didn't address the root cause of the bullying, and the religious whackjobs railed against the school board for capitulating to the sinful queers. In the end, nothing fucking got done.

Well it seems like the LGBT whackjobs and the religious activists(<--see, I can be biased in how I describe people too) need to sit down and work things out because their current plan(scream until my voice is the loudest) isn't working to well. Perhaps treat it the same way they treat peace treaty between waring countries. Have a mediator to work out a solution for both groups.

DrVornoff:

If you're wrong, I'm going to say as much.

There is nothing for me to be wrong about, I simply asked you a question. Given your comment that they are as you called them homophobic, "Can you prove to me that these people would have these views if it wasn't for the religion?". The answer seems to be that you can't and you just want to call them names. How childish of you.

DrVornoff:

But why is being gay so taboo? Why do gay students have to closet themselves?

Nobody says they can't be gay, I just said that they can't voice their oppinion on homosexuality any more than religious people can. Both sides have to closet themselves because high school isn't the place for such debates.

DrVornoff:

I say teach the facts. If a teacher sees a gay student getting bullied, punish the little predators and don't be afraid to tell the gay kid that it's okay to be gay.

You can drop the name calling any time. Sure the teacher can do that as long as the teacher doesn't tell the class they are wrong to consider it a sin.

DrVornoff:
That there's nothing wrong with him and his antagonist is full of shit.

Obviously the second part would be inappropriate for a teacher to say.

DrVornoff:

No. When I say homosexuality is not a mental illness, I am stating a fact.

correct

DrVornoff:
And I can say that because that is the consensus among the scientific community who found no empirical data that indicates that homosexuality is an illness, nor have they found any proof that it is a choice.

Again I don't want to get into this discussion, so I'll leave it at that.

DrVornoff:

As I said above, homosexuality is not a choice. So the odds of your apocalyptic scenario coming to pass are somewhere between zero and double-zero. So what's the argument again?

That if we're splitting hairs, then it is bad.

DrVornoff:

If you think that homosexuality is a choice and you need to use therapy to cure these kids of being gay or that homosexuality is a threat to American society, I can call you whatever the fuck I want.

And you would still be wrong.

DrVornoff:

Then why are you against teachers doing what would curtail the practice? You can't just treat the symptom, you have to go after the cause.

The cause is expressing an opinion through discrimination and violence. Something I would want to stop.

DrVornoff:
If you do not provide a counterargument to the bully's assertions and justifications for his actions, then he will continue to act like a fucking predator because he hasn't been shown why his actions are wrong.

Your naive if you think telling him he is wrong will do anything more than provoke his parents.

DrVornoff:

But I'm not allowed to argue against their opinions?

Sure you can, you get on your soapbox and lecture the internet all you want about how you think its wrong to consider it a sin, but how about focusing on a more important issue first....like how to prevent bullying and suicide. Keep in mind that we don't need your soapbox speech in order to prevent bullying and suicide.

DrVornoff:

Again, what about addressing why bullying is wrong?

Tell the kids people can die from it, tell the kids "because its the schools rules", or tell them because bullying now may not get them in trouble but latter on they may get arrested for it. Those three option seem good enough and they don't attack religion despite your eagerness to do so.

DrVornoff:

Kendarik:
I agree completely. You both have the right to speak your mind, I've said that repeatedly.

Yes. And if that same hypothetical prick says something that is demonstrably wrong, I will say so. And if he says something that will hurt people, his bitch ass is mine. I've been on the receiving end of too much abuse to have even a shred of sympathy for anyone who would incite more of it. If they want to bring their faith into it, that's just one more point for me to go after.

Are you just arguing to hear yourself talk now?

DrVornoff:

Yes. And if that same hypothetical prick says something that is demonstrably wrong, I will say so. And if he says something that will hurt people, his bitch ass is mine.

image I go back to my previous comment, what are you going to do? I mean besides make hallow threats against people you see in newspapers and on tv.

DrVornoff:
I've been on the receiving end of too much abuse to have even a shred of sympathy for anyone who would incite more of it. If they want to bring their faith into it, that's just one more point for me to go after.

*Yawn* more hollow threats against people you will probably never meet.

Helmholtz Watson:
Look at the video I posted at the beginning of this thread before you tell me how great teachers are at their job. The screw up like everybody else, so no I won't just blindly trust them. As for the difficulty, its because the feelings of both sides are worth considering.

So because some teachers suck at their jobs, we can't trust any of them?

The they executed it poorly, because it was clearly only favoring one side, the religious.

Which is part and parcel with policies like this.

Then there should be a clarification made to the teachers and parents. The teachers are not there to lecture on how students should think about homosexuality, they are there to stop bullying. Children are entitled to consider it a sin, but they are not permitted to bully other children because they consider it a sin.

Good. Now let's do that without kowtowing to fundamentalists who think defending gay students is, "promoting the gay lifestyle."

Well it seems like the LGBT whackjobs and the religious activists(<--see, I can be biased in how I describe people too) need to sit down and work things out because their current plan(scream until my voice is the loudest) isn't working to well. Perhaps treat it the same way they treat peace treaty between waring countries. Have a mediator to work out a solution for both groups.

Do you think the bigots want to negotiate?

There is nothing for me to be wrong about, I simply asked you a question. Given your comment that they are as you called them homophobic, "Can you prove to me that these people would have these views if it wasn't for the religion?". The answer seems to be that you can't and you just want to call them names. How childish of you.

I call 'em like I see 'em. If someone says something bigoted, I call them a fucking bigot. It's really not that complicated.

Nobody says they can't be gay, I just said that they can't voice their oppinion on homosexuality any more than religious people can. Both sides have to closet themselves because high school isn't the place for such debates.

No. I don't believe that. I don't believe it's right to send someone to school and force them into a closet, like the way they were born is something to be ashamed of.

You can drop the name calling any time.

Again, I call 'em like I see 'em. I'm drawing on personal experience. Half the guys who ritualistically bullied me throughout my school career are now in prison.

Sure the teacher can do that as long as the teacher doesn't tell the class they are wrong to consider it a sin.

Knowing for now that's about as good as it's going to get, I'll have to take that, won't I?

Obviously the second part would be inappropriate for a teacher to say.

Again, same thing as racism as far as I'm concerned.

That if we're splitting hairs, then it is bad.

But we're not.

And you would still be wrong.

About what? That homosexuality isn't an illness? That "pray away the gay" therapy is goatshit?

The cause is expressing an opinion through discrimination and violence. Something I would want to stop.

That's the symptom. The cause behind that behavior is the belief that gays are a separate other who can be harassed and mistreated because they're a societal threat. That they're not one of us, so their pain doesn't matter. That their being apart from us means they must be destroyed.

Your naive if you think telling him he is wrong will do anything more than provoke his parents.

What does that mean to me?

Sure you can, you get on your soapbox and lecture the internet all you want about how you think its wrong to consider it a sin, but how about focusing on a more important issue first....like how to prevent bullying and suicide. Keep in mind that we don't need your soapbox speech in order to prevent bullying and suicide.

I figured as long as I'm here, in for a penny, in for a pound. I'm sick, unable to leave the house, and I've got a ton of aggression to work out. Why not take it out on an issue that pisses me off to begin with?

Tell the kids people can die from it, tell the kids "because its the schools rules", or tell them because bullying now may not get them in trouble but latter on they may get arrested for it. Those three option seem good enough and they don't attach religion despite your eagerness to do so.

And what if they don't care if a gay kid dies? What if they don't care about school rules because they don't see how those rules could possibly benefit them? And what if they have that typical teenage arrogance and think they're immortal, so future threats of arrest are just laughed off?

At some point, you need to strip it down and explain to them the difference between right and wrong. Sadly, not all parents teach that lesson themselves. And as Anoko-Hennepin has shown, some of those parents never did learn the lesson.

Kendarik:
Are you just arguing to hear yourself talk now?

No, just getting it out of my system. I feel better now. I'm less sick today than I was yesterday and while I've still got a massive burr under my saddle over the state of how gay rights are this big controversy in the US, I'm feeling less hostile.

Helmholtz Watson:
I go back to my previous comment, what are you going to do? I mean besides make hallow threats against people you see in newspapers and on tv.

Stand up to people on a local level. I can volunteer my time to campaigns, join mentor programs, volunteer for charities... lots of stuff I can and do plan to do this year. I may not get to personally draft legislation, but I still have the ability to do something on a small level. I can work my way up as I go.

I do find it ironic though that you claim to be an idealist, and yet the above sentiment is one you previously scoffed at.

Kendarik:

Ultratwinkie:

1. Not from what I am hearing. I am seeing American Jews proclaiming anyone living with a Jew becomes a Jew. Mostly to try to "puff up" the population.

No. I don't know of ANY sect of Judiasm that says that. Oh, and I'm a convert, I researched it for several years before I converted so I have a clue about what I'm talking about. Conversion must be voluntary, and takes anywhere from 1 year to 10 years of study BEFORE your rabbi will refer you to the beit din (religious court) - and they don't refer everyone. Once there you have to convince the Rabbis/Ravs sitting on the court that you are a genuine convert of free will, who is well informed, and is committed to following the law. During the conversion process, and again at the beit din, you are REPEATEDLY discouraged from converting. This practice even applies in the most "forgiving" of branches, the Reform.

You are spreading misinformation.

Others try to argue that any non-whites can't be Jews.

No. And that's a bigotted statement on your part. Stop calling us racists, its a load of crap. NOTHING in the religion would suggest you can't be black and Jewish.

Maybe you missed it, but world wide Jewery rallied a couple decades ago to save the remanents of BLACK AFRICAN JEWS in a war zone and bring them back to Israel WHERE THEY BECAME CITIZENS UNDER THE LAW OF RETURN THAT ONLY APPLIES TO JEWS. There is no where stricter than Israel under that law when it comes to determining who is considered a Jew.

A whole lot of argument over something that shouldn't matter. Not even Deists argue this much, and they actually have something to argue about (over the definiton and function of Deism).

Who is a Jew matters very much. I know you will never understand why, I won't even try. But since you aren't Jewish, why don't you butt out of something you clearly don't understand and know nothing about. Most certainly don't spread around BS you read somewhere on the internet, because we know that turns people into fools.

2. I didn't specify where. I assumed you were in either America or Europe. The only news I heard from Israel is over religious rights over a sect that doesn't want to work and only read the Torah, but still receive welfare.

Wow, you have selective hearing about Israel.

1. Did I say blacks/ other minorities cant be Jews? No, that was the statement I heard. Mostly they would doubt you are a "real Jew" despite them being a converted Jew. Mostly heard this from Jewish adoptive mothers whos children isn't from the same race. You seem to be angry at what you think I said, rather than what I said.

2. The "non Jews became Jews" portion was a report (from a Jewish man I think) that said Judaism was growing. However they couldn't get accurate numbers, so they just tossed in non Jews who lived with Jews into the number of the Jewish population. That did not go over well with the American Jewish population, who quickly found the inconsistency.

3. Yes, most likely I won't "understand" the identity portion of it. Since I hold no reverence for any religious function, or anything that is more arcane or esoteric than it should be. It comes with being a Deist, its one of the major "laws" if you want to call them that. The point is all the religious laws and emphasis over who is a "real Jew" doesn't make sense to an outsider who no longer has any concept of religion or rites. It would come to be expected, though.

4. I don't look at Israeli news very much. That was the only news piece that caught my eye since it spread into news sites I go to. After the debacle over welfare, I didn't hear very much that I didn't already expect or know.

DrVornoff:

So because some teachers suck at their jobs, we can't trust any of them?

No it just means I'm not going to blindly trust teachers like you previously suggested. I realize that they make mistakes, so it isn't a big deal to help them out.

DrVornoff:

Which is part and parcel with policies like this.

Again the policy was never properly executed, so your drawing false conclusions.

DrVornoff:

Good. Now let's do that without kowtowing to fundamentalists who think defending gay students is, "promoting the gay lifestyle."

I think it can be done without intentionally trying to antagonize religious students and their families, something you seem to want to go head-on into.

DrVornoff:

Do you think the religious groups want to negotiate?

Fixed that for you. I don't think they do anymore than the gay students and their family do, but like I said, treat the situation like two waring nations coming together to sign a peace treaty, because as I said before the current policy of screaming until your the loudest isn't working.

DrVornoff:

I call 'em like I see 'em. If someone says something bigoted, I call them a fucking bigot. It's really not that complicated.

Again calling names and making claims that you can't back up. Prove to me that they are homophobes and they are not just saying these things because of their religious convictions. Prove to me that it is because of hate and/or fear and not out of religious conviction. Otherwise your making baseless claims and just calling people names.

DrVornoff:

No. I don't believe that.

Ok I do. School isn't the place to voice feelings on sexuality or religion.

DrVornoff:
I don't believe it's right to send someone to school and force them into a closet, like the way they were born is something to be ashamed of.

You know if I just read that one part that is made bold, I would be forgiven for being confused about which children your referring to, the gay student who you feel shouldn't be ashamed of something he didn't choose, or the religious student who you feel should be ashamed of something he didn't choose(inb4 you make a comment about religious choice, no those kids don't have a choice on how their parents raised them). Funny how you don't mind shaming children that you don't like, but your outraged that gay students should feel ashamed. smh.

DrVornoff:

Again, I call 'em like I see 'em.

Then you have a very prejudice view.

DrVornoff:
I'm drawing on personal experience. Half the guys who ritualistically bullied me throughout my school career are now in prison.

Cool story bro, except the guy in school that bullied you are not the people in the article, but I guess it explains a lot and your so hateful of religious children.

DrVornoff:

Knowing for now that's about as good as it's going to get, I'll have to take that, won't I?

You can take whatever you like.

DrVornoff:

Again, same thing as racism as far as I'm concerned.

How is a teacher cursing about one student to another student have anything to do with racism?

DrVornoff:

But we're not.

You asked a question, I'm simply answering it.

DrVornoff:

About what? That homosexuality isn't an illness? That "pray away the gay" therapy is goatshit?

That you can call people names without being called out on it.

DrVornoff:

That's the symptom. The cause behind that behavior is the belief that gays are a separate other who can be harassed and mistreated because they're a societal threat. That they're not one of us, so their pain doesn't matter. That their being apart from us means they must be destroyed.

Did you get Tyler Perry to start reading minds now? How do you know what their opinion is? Last I checked the reason was that because they were sinners.

DrVornoff:

What does that mean to me?

That your naive.

DrVornoff:

I figured as long as I'm here, in for a penny, in for a pound. I'm sick, unable to leave the house, and I've got a ton of aggression to work out. Why not take it out on an issue that pisses me off to begin with?

I guess, but it seems to run counter to your claim to want to help gay students and it shows that your just using the topic of their suffering as a way to kill time. Seems pretty sadistic on your part, using their plight as a way to kill time.

DrVornoff:

And what if they don't care if a gay kid dies? What if they don't care about school rules because they don't see how those rules could possibly benefit them?

Then they don't care. I don't care what their motivation is, just as long as they don't break the rules.

DrVornoff:
And what if they have that typical teenage arrogance and think they're immortal, so future threats of arrest are just laughed off?

Well like all things, there are always going to be people who don't want to follow the rules, doesn't make the rules wrong. There are people who don't want to turn homework in on time, but that doesn't mean the concept of turning homework in on time is wrong.

DrVornoff:
At some point, you need to strip it down and explain to them the difference between right and wrong. Sadly, not all parents teach that lesson themselves. And as Anoko-Hennepin has shown, some of those parents never did learn the lesson.

Again, school isn't the place to teach values, values are subjective, unique to each person. As you said, the school only teaches facts, and morals and values are opinions.

DrVornoff:

Stand up to people on a local level. I can volunteer my time to campaigns, join mentor programs, volunteer for charities... lots of stuff I can and do plan to do this year. I may not get to personally draft legislation, but I still have the ability to do something on a small level. I can work my way up as I go.

So again you really are not going to be doing something that will make "his bitch ass mine". Your just making hollow threats to people you will never meet.

DrVornoff:
I do find it ironic though that you claim to be an idealist, and yet the above sentiment is one you previously scoffed at.

I scoffed at your attempt, a random stranger with no power. I don't scoff at someone in powers attempt, like a teacher, principal, superintendent, ect.

cobra_ky:

cthulhuspawn82:

Or they could just say that bullying anyone is against the rules, and avoid pointing out specific groups of people. Its only a "gay" issue because they made it one by singling out gays and other groups mentioned above. These people wonder why there is so much division in our country when they are the ones that go out of their way to divide us all up into groups.

Edit: So is it OK for me to bully people for reasons not listed in the bill? Derp!

it's not really "singling out" when it's in a list of twenty other things and one of them is "any other distinguishing characteristic". I guess if you want to bully someone for breathing oxygen, you're welcome to.

The way this bill is worded, its like teaching gun safety by giving a list of people you shouldn't murder. "Please don't murder whites, blacks, jews, homosexuals..."

Wouldn't it be less idiotic to just say "Don't murder anyone"

Helmholtz Watson:
No it just means I'm not going to blindly trust teachers like you previously suggested. I realize that they make mistakes, so it isn't a big deal to help them out.

The way you said it, it sounds as if you have no trust for teachers at all.

Again the policy was never properly executed, so your drawing false conclusions.

I saw what happened when they tried. Didn't work. So let's try something else. How does that not make sense?

I think it can be done without intentionally trying to antagonize religious students and their families, something you seem to want to go head-on into.

I'm not out to antagonize religious people in general. Just the ones who think their faith in Jesus gives them the right to tread on others' civil liberties.

Fixed that for you. I don't think they do anymore than the gay students and their family do, but like I said, treat the situation like two waring nations coming together to sign a peace treaty, because as I said before the current policy of screaming until your the loudest isn't working.

And here we go into that, "The other side does it too," bullshit. Standing up for people who are being ritualistically abused is not the same thing as wanting to legislate that abuse because you don't live in reality.

Again calling names and making claims that you can't back up. Prove to me that they are homophobes and they are not just saying these things because of their religious convictions. Prove to me that it is because of hate and/or fear and not out of religious conviction. Otherwise your making baseless claims and just calling people names.

And you're just creating a red herring. Religious or secular, if you believe that gays are a threat to society and that makes it okay to bully them, then you're an asshole. You want to argue otherwise?

Ok I do. School isn't the place to voice feelings on sexuality or religion.

Then why are religious people allowed to say homosexuality is a sin, but no one is allowed to say, "I disagree?"

You know if I just read that one part that is made bold, I would be forgiven for being confused about which children your referring to, the gay student who you feel shouldn't be ashamed of something he didn't choose, or the religious student who you feel should be ashamed of something he didn't choose(inb4 you make a comment about religious choice, no those kids don't have a choice on how their parents raised them). Funny how you don't mind shaming children that you don't like, but your outraged that gay students should feel ashamed. smh.

Don't tell me what my opinions are. If religious people can avoid using their faith as an excuse to hurt another human being, then they're free to do whatever it is church people do when I'm not around. But if they're allowed to go to school wearing a, "Jesus loves me!" T-shirt, then the gay kid should be allowed to wear the rainbow wristband. Fair is fair, right?

Then you have a very prejudice view.

Implying that you don't?

Cool story bro, except the guy in school that bullied you are not the people in the article, but I guess it explains a lot and your so hateful of religious children.

I was never actually bullied by religious people. I actually admire people who genuinely Christlike or who otherwise follow the best parts of their faith while disregarding the parts that no longer apply to modern society.

I just don't like assholes. Some of whom happen to be religious and they use that as an excuse.

How is a teacher cursing about one student to another student have anything to do with racism?

All empirical data shows that there is no valid reason to hate and discriminate against gay people. Not a one. Which means it belongs in the same category as racism. We don't give equal time in the schools to the racists. Oh sure, a kid can sit there at his desk and think that his black classmate sitting next to him is a stupid nigger. But the instant he says that or puts his hands on the kid, he's shit out of luck. The school is under no obligation to pretend that he has a valid belief or that it justifies what he did.

That you can call people names without being called out on it.

It's only an ad hominem if I offer no argument to buttress it. But I have offered my reasoning. You are the one continuing to insist that my use of 4-letter words is the only part of my argument.

Did you get Tyler Perry to start reading minds now? How do you know what their opinion is? Last I checked the reason was that because they were sinners.

This is basic psychology. It's that little devil that sits on your shoulder and gives you your bad ideas. It's a phenomenon that none of us are immune to, but if you're aware of it, you have the ability to choose to second guess it.

Again, it's not religious people in general I'm against, contrary to what you seem to think. It's the people who use their faith as a way to justify hurting other people. Who hide behind scripture when someone says, "Whoa, dick move!"

I guess, but it seems to run counter to your claim to want to help gay students and it shows that your just using the topic of their suffering as a way to kill time. Seems pretty sadistic on your part, using their plight as a way to kill time.

Implying of course that I don't actually care about this topic. Care to prove that?

Then they don't care. I don't care what their motivation is, just as long as they don't break the rules.

Again, it amazes me how defeatist you can be.

Well like all things, there are always going to be people who don't want to follow the rules, doesn't make the rules wrong. There are people who don't want to turn homework in on time, but that doesn't mean the concept of turning homework in on time is wrong.

I at no point said the rules were wrong. Where you picked that up is beyond me. I'm saying that there has to be a better way of enforcing them.

Again, school isn't the place to teach values, values are subjective, unique to each person. As you said, the school only teaches facts, and morals and values are opinions.

Yes and no. Like it or not, part of the function of a public school, and one it sadly fails to fulfill these days, is to prepare students gradually for life in the real world. And that means getting people used to the realities of the values and cultural mores of the society they live in.

One of the reasons I'm such an advocate for education reform is because our schools don't do that enough. I once had a social studies teacher who opened every class by reading an article from the front page of a major newspaper and getting all of us to discuss it for the first 15 minutes of class. That was what taught me to pay attention to current events and shook my teenage world view by showing me that, holy shit, I really don't know everything! I want students to have more of that.

Part of the reason the prejudices like what we say at Anoka-Hennepin happened (I'm asking you as two adults with a modicum of respect, please set aside the time and read the whole article) is because opinions and beliefs formed in isolation with little to no exposure to dissent or disagreement. If you go in believing that gays are evil sinners and you never get a chance to interact with one as a person or hear any stories that portray them as normal people, then that belief is only going to get worse.

If you haven't, look into the book, "Meeting the Shadow." It's a compilation of psychological/psychiatric articles about the Jungian shadow self, the dark side of the human mind. It might help you understand a little better where I'm coming from on this.

So again you really are not going to be doing something that will make "his bitch ass mine". Your just making hollow threats to people you will never meet.

If someone declares in public that all gays are a threat to society, then I will publicly and vocally call him out and rip his arguments to shreds. I've done my homework and I have the facts on my side. What more do you expect me to do? What more would you ask of me?

I scoffed at your attempt, a random stranger with no power. I don't scoff at someone in powers attempt, like a teacher, principal, superintendent, ect.

Again, just because you believe yourself to be powerless doesn't mean that you actually are. And neither am I.

DrVornoff:

The way you said it, it sounds as if you have no trust for teachers at all.

They're human so they will make mistakes. I'm not saying we should hold their hand, just help them out.

DrVornoff:

I saw what happened when they tried. Didn't work. So let's try something else. How does that not make sense?

What you saw was something where the school clearly caved into one side. It wasn't a application of neutrality. Your drawing false conclusions.

DrVornoff:

I'm not out to antagonize religious people in general.

Your general attitude says otherwise.

DrVornoff:
Just the ones who think their faith in Jesus gives them the right to tread on others' civil liberties.

So you want to antagonize other antagonizers? Childish and non-productive...congrats.

DrVornoff:

And here we go into that, "The other side does it too," bullshit.

-_-

DrVornoff:

And you're just creating a red herring.

No, you made a claim that they are homophobic and I called bullshit and said that believing that homosexuality is a sin, isn't homophobic. This didn't stop you from continuing to call them homophobic, so I ask you....prove to me that it isn't not because of religion and because of some fear and hatred grounded from some personal, non-religious belief.

DrVornoff:

Then why are religious people allowed to say homosexuality is a sin,

I never said that the religious should be able to voice their opinion, in fact I have said just the opposite. They can have that belief but they can't voice their view that homosexuality is a sin.

DrVornoff:
but no one is allowed to say, "I disagree?"

You can disagree that it is a sin, but you would be wrong. It is a sin. Go ask a Orthodox rabbi if your confused about what the Torah says about male homosexuality.

You know if I just read that one part that is made bold, I would be forgiven for being confused about which children your referring to, the gay student who you feel shouldn't be ashamed of something he didn't choose, or the religious student who you feel should be ashamed of something he didn't choose(inb4 you make a comment about religious choice, no those kids don't have a choice on how their parents raised them). Funny how you don't mind shaming children that you don't like, but your outraged that gay students should feel ashamed. smh.

DrVornoff:
Don't tell me what my opinions are.

Or what? You seem to be fine making some children feel ashamed for something they have no control over(see:their families religious views and their childhood)

DrVornoff:
If religious people can avoid using their faith as an excuse to hurt another human being, then they're free to do whatever it is church people do when I'm not around. But if they're allowed to go to school wearing a, "Jesus loves me!" T-shirt, then the gay kid should be allowed to wear the rainbow wristband. Fair is fair, right?

First off "Jesus loves me" isn't an open attack on gay students, so no. Wearing a "Jesus loves me" shirt wouldn't justify wearing a rainbow wristband. However if there was a shirt that said "Christian and proud" then that would justify wearing a rainbow wristband. However, seeing as how this could easily be escalated into one side where shirts like this, while the other side wearing these shirts, it would have to be closely watched.

DrVornoff:

Implying that you don't?

Prejudice? No. I think both sides mean well and think they are doing what they believe is right. I don't think either side is hiding in the shadows with their piercing and glowing red eyes, twirling their mustaches, and laughing maniacally.

DrVornoff:

I actually admire people who genuinely Christlike or who otherwise follow the best parts of their faith while disregarding the parts that no longer apply to modern society.

Well that's good to hear. :)

DrVornoff:

All empirical data shows that there is no valid reason to hate and discriminate against gay people. Not a one. Which means it belongs in the same category as racism. We don't give equal time in the schools to the racists. Oh sure, a kid can sit there at his desk and think that his black classmate sitting next to him is a stupid nigger. But the instant he says that or puts his hands on the kid, he's shit out of luck. The school is under no obligation to pretend that he has a valid belief or that it justifies what he did.

That still doesn't have anything to do with your idea that a teacher would say to one student "the guys who is bully you, his ideas are shit". My comment was that a teacher shouldn't use that kind of language.

DrVornoff:

It's only an ad hominem if I offer no argument to buttress it. But I have offered my reasoning. You are the one continuing to insist that my use of 4-letter words is the only part of my argument.

Just that it is unnecessary.

DrVornoff:

This is basic psychology. It's that little devil that sits on your shoulder and gives you your bad ideas. It's a phenomenon that none of us are immune to, but if you're aware of it, you have the ability to choose to second guess it.

So...is that a yes? You have been using mind reading powers to know exactly what other people are thinking and why they think it? People who you have never met.

DrVornoff:
Again, it's not religious people in general I'm against, contrary to what you seem to think. It's the people who use their faith as a way to justify hurting other people. Who hide behind scripture when someone says, "Whoa, dick move!"

People have a right to view homosexuality as a sin. Simple as that. Where they voice this view is another story.

DrVornoff:

Implying of course that I don't actually care about this topic. Care to prove that?

Nope, just making an observation.

DrVornoff:

Again, it amazes me how defeatist you can be.

image

How is it defeatist for me to refuse to allow students to break the rules?

DrVornoff:

I at no point said the rules were wrong. Where you picked that up is beyond me. I'm saying that there has to be a better way of enforcing them.

How would you do that, while considering both sides?

DrVornoff:

One of the reasons I'm such an advocate for education reform is because our schools don't do that enough. I once had a social studies teacher who opened every class by reading an article from the front page of a major newspaper and getting all of us to discuss it for the first 15 minutes of class. That was what taught me to pay attention to current events and shook my teenage world view by showing me that, holy shit, I really don't know everything! I want students to have more of that.

Great....but that has nothing to do with this topic.

DrVornoff:

If you haven't, look into the book, "Meeting the Shadow." It's a compilation of psychological/psychiatric articles about the Jungian shadow self, the dark side of the human mind. It might help you understand a little better where I'm coming from on this.

Are you kidding me?! I didn't read your article, why would I read an entire book just for one thread.

DrVornoff:

If someone declares in public that all gays are a threat to society, then I will publicly and vocally call him out and rip his arguments to shreds.

...on the internet. You will do this on the internet...on a gaming forum. lmao. Why not just go scream into the wind? You will get the same result.

DrVornoff:
I've done my homework and I have the facts on my side. What more do you expect me to do? What more would you ask of me?

Go into a career in politics and actually do something other than debating people on the internet. Seems pretty obvious to me.

DrVornoff:

Again, just because you believe yourself to be powerless doesn't mean that you actually are.

*rolls eyes* your right! I could be arguing with people on the internet and making hollow threats at people I'll never meet.

DrVornoff:
And neither am I.

On a small scale? Your right, your not powerless. Now more importantly, on a large scale? Yeah, your not really doing much.

Helmholtz Watson:
What you saw was something where the school clearly caved in to one side. It wasn't a application of neutrality. Your drawing false conclusions.

How do you know what they did? You didn't do the homework.

Your general attitude says otherwise.

Text on a computer screen. That's all you've got to go on. So please do not profess to tell me what my beliefs actually are. When I make that mistake, people rightfully call me on it. You're not immune.

So you want to antagonize other antagonizers? Childish and non-productive...congrats.

Standing up in defense of others is not a childish thing to do. And I'm sorry that you don't see it that way.

Oh, don't try to be cute. You use this argument all the time. It's bullshit, everybody calls you out on it, you never come out on top, so just quit it. Okay? Stop pretending the sins of one group excuse the sins of another.

No, you made a claim that they are homophobic and I called bullshit and said that believing that homosexuality is a sin, isn't homophobic. This didn't stop you from continuing to call them homophobic, so I ask you....prove to me that it isn't not because of religion and because of some fear and hatred grounded from some personal, non-religious belief.

You're splitting hairs. These anti-gay activists keep asserting that gays are mentally unstable and a threat to American society. What am I supposed to think when I hear that shit? If you're taking this personally as you seem to be, then that says more about you than it does about me.

I never said that the religious should be able to voice their opinion, in fact I have said just the opposite. They can have that belief but they can't voice their view that homosexuality is a sin.

But in exchange, all the gays have to stay in the closet?

You can disagree that it is a sin, but you would be wrong. It is a sin. Go ask a Orthodox rabbi if your confused about what the Torah says about male homosexuality.

What if someone's belief system is not Abrahamic and doesn't say that gays are sinners? I suppose that makes them wrong too because they had the poor taste to follow the wrong religion?

Or what? You seem to be fine making some children feel ashamed for something they have no control over(see:their families religious views and their childhood)

Again, what you do in church is your own damn business. But if you use your faith as a reason to harass one of my children or say something to belittle them, then I'm not going to be nice to you.

First off "Jesus loves me" isn't an open attack on gay students, so no. Wearing a "Jesus loves me" shirt wouldn't justify wearing a rainbow wristband. However if there was a shirt that said "Christian and proud" then that would justify wearing a rainbow wristband. However, seeing as how this could easily be escalated into one side where shirts like this, while the other side wearing these shirts, it would have to be closely watched.

Amazing. I did not think you could find anything disagreeable with that, and you did anyway. Sweet chocolate Buddha. I'm trying to dial back the hostility and aggression now that I'm feeling better, but you're making it difficult by being this goddamn anal.

Prejudice? No. I think both sides mean well and think they are doing what they believe is right. I don't think either side is hiding in the shadows with their piercing and glowing red eyes, twirling their mustaches, and laughing maniacally.

This requires no great wisdom or insight on your part. My own belief is that the anti-gay crowd who want to "pray the gay away" and all the other nonsense either don't understand the consequences of their actions or they're unwilling to accept responsibility for them. Fairly typical human response. Oh there are a few out there with malicious intent. There will always be aberrations. But for the most part, the anti-gay propaganda is the result of superstition, ignorance and tribal mentality.

That still doesn't have anything to do with your idea that a teacher would say to one student "the guys who is bully you, his ideas are shit". My comment was that a teacher shouldn't use that kind of language.

Honestly, if someone professes to be a Christian and then says, "God hates fags," then they didn't actually read the Bible. So yeah, they are full of shit.

Just that it is unnecessary.

Again, profanity is how I express outrage. If I just called, let's say for example, Michele Bachmann an asshole, that would be ad hominem. If I explained why I believe her platform and policies are detrimental and wrong, and then called her an asshole, it's not an ad hominem.

So...is that a yes? You have been using mind reading powers to know exactly what other people are thinking and why they think it? People who you have never met.

Let me answer that with another question: Do you believe psychology to be a valid science?

People have a right to view homosexuality as a sin. Simple as that. Where they voice this view is another story.

Like I said, nothing I can do to stop you from thinking it. But if you act on it, the consequences are your responsibility.

Nope, just making an observation.

Then don't imply what you can't prove.

How is it defeatist for me to refuse to allow students to break the rules?

You seem to give up way too easily.

How would you do that, while considering both sides?

That's a discussion I would love to have.

Great....but that has nothing to do with this topic.

Uh, did you read the part where I explained why? Or did you just sort of skip that part in your rush to make that comment?

Are you kidding me?! I didn't read your article, why would I read an entire book just for one thread.

Because I was holding up some hope that you were an adult and could exercise a little intellectual curiosity.

...on the internet. You will do this on the internet...on a gaming forum. lmao. Why not just go scream into the wind? You will get the same result.

Go into a career in politics and actually do something other than debating people on the internet. Seems pretty obvious to me.

Again, just because you believe yourself to be powerless doesn't mean that you actually are.

*rolls eyes* your right! I could be arguing with people on the internet and making hollow threats at people I'll never meet.

What, you think I wouldn't argue with someone in public? You obviously don't know me that well.

On a small scale? Your right, your not powerless. Now more importantly, on a large scale? Yeah, your not really doing much.

Everybody's gotta start somewhere. The question is whether or not you're willing to actually make that start.

Helmholtz, I really want to hear what your perception of a "true neutrality" system put in place is. In what way did the Anoka Hennepin school system "cave into one side," and how would you prevent that from happening in a "true neutral" system?

What happens in hypothetical situations like these?

Jed tells Timmy that homosexuality is a sin, repeatedly, and that Timmy is going to burn in hell for eternity. This antagonizing upsets Timmy to the point where he does not want to go to school. Timmy brings this situation to the principal. What does the principal say to Timmy? To Jed?

Jed does not stop. Does the principal suspend Jed? What if Jed's family threatens a lawsuit against the school for "violation of religious freedom." The school can't afford to lose, budgets are strained as is. If Lambda Legal were to come to aid the school, and the Alliance Defense Fund helps out Jed's family, wouldn't the situation be just another battleground and is no longer neutral?

I guess I got carried away, but I simply cannot fathom how this completely neutral system could function, without taking a stance one way or another.

I feel school systems should prioritize, by any means necessary, the lives of their students, and I can't see how neutrality could do that at all.

DrVornoff:

How do you know what they did? You didn't do the homework.

Your right, I asked you for cliff notes and you provided them. So I guess I go back to my previous question, did you leave something out that proves that they were being neutral?

DrVornoff:

Text on a computer screen. That's all you've got to go on. So please do not profess to tell me what my beliefs actually are.

I didn't tell you what your beliefs are, I said your text convey a certain attitude.

DrVornoff:

Standing up in defense of others is not a childish thing to do.

Antagonizing people is childish and non-productive.

DrVornoff:
And I'm sorry that you don't see it that way.

You should be sorry for thinking that antagonizing others is going to do anything productive.

DrVornoff:

Oh, don't try to be cute. You use this argument all the time. It's bullshit, everybody calls you out on it, you never come out on top, so just quit it. Okay?

Tyler Perry has brought it up, nobody else. As for this topic, like I said, I both sides think their doing whats right. They are not the monsters some people wish to paint them as.

DrVornoff:
Stop pretending the sins of one group excuse the sins of another.

I don't recall ever accusing the side for the gay students being anti-Christian or bigots against Christians/Christianity. The closest I have ever came to that is stating that if both sides wore shirts that supported their views, anti-Christian shirts might be worn.

DrVornoff:

You're splitting hairs.

Not really, just asking you to back up your claim.

DrVornoff:
If you're taking this personally as you seem to be, then that says more about you than it does about me.

lol, personal attack, eh? No, while I might defend their right to speak, I don't think kissing guys is a threat to America. If that was the case, than our country would be in serious trouble. I mean if kissing guys can destroy you, how can you be expected to go to war? How could you be expected to compete with other countries financially? So no, I don't think that it is a "serious threat".

DrVornoff:

But in exchange, all the gays have to stay in the closet?

Yep, and all the Christians have to stay in the closet about their belief. Neither group gets a chance to express their views.

DrVornoff:

What if someone's belief system is not Abrahamic and doesn't say that gays are sinners?

I was referring to this in the situation with Gay students not saying it is a sin. However then I guess Chrsitain students would have to be more specific and say that it is a sin in their religion, but this wouldn't be a issue at school because nobody should go around saying whether or not homosexuality is a sin

DrVornoff:
I suppose that makes them wrong too because they had the poor taste to follow the wrong religion?

Nope.

DrVornoff:
[

Again, what you do in church is your own damn business. But if you use your faith as a reason to harass one of my children or say something to belittle them, then I'm not going to be nice to you children.

To children, your not going to be nice to children.

How mature of you, I'm sure screaming at them how wrong they are will force them to agree with you....because you know, you'll have left such a great impression. /sarcasm

DrVornoff:

Amazing. I did not think you could find anything disagreeable with that, and you did anyway. Sweet chocolate Buddha. I'm trying to dial back the hostility and aggression now that I'm feeling better, but you're making it difficult by being this goddamn anal.

You made a good point that I didn't think about. What about wearing clothes that promote your views? Don't sell yourself short, you pointed out something that raises a good question, can both sides wear clothes that support their views? To which I said only if it is not intended to provoke the other side with shirts that might say things like "Fuck Christians" or "Fuck Homosexuals".

DrVornoff:

for the most part, the anti-gay propaganda is the result of superstition, ignorance and tribal mentality.

Prove it, prove that it isn't religion and is ignorance, superstition and tribal mentality.

DrVornoff:

Honestly, if someone professes to be a Christian and then says, "God hates fags," then they didn't actually read the Bible. So yeah, they are full of shit.

Whether or not their right doesn't permit teachers the right to use swear words in describing the ideas of one student to another student.

DrVornoff:

Again, profanity is how I express outrage.

Then you express it in a childish and crude way.

DrVornoff:

Let me answer that with another question: Do you believe psychology to be a valid science?

Some of it. I hear some people give it shit, but that is mostly "hard science" people that I talk to, that seem to have some odd dislike for it. So yes, it is valid, though it has it's flaws.

DrVornoff:

Like I said, nothing I can do to stop you from thinking it. But if you act on it, the consequences are your responsibility.

Agreed.

DrVornoff:

You seem to give up way too easily.

I didn't give up on anything, I said I don't care why students don't break the rules, just as long as they don't break the rules.

DrVornoff:
Because I was holding up some hope that you were an adult and could exercise a little intellectual curiosity.

It has noting to do with being an adult and everything to do with how I find it stupid that you would suggest that I should read a entire book before I reply to you. Tell you what, I'll go read the book when you go read both the old and new testament from cover to cover.

DrVornoff:

What, you think I wouldn't argue with someone in public?

I don't know nor do I care. If you randomly argue with people out on the street, you still won't be doing anything significant in the long run.

DrVornoff:

Everybody's gotta start somewhere. The question is whether or not you're willing to actually make that start.

Yep and that start would be going to college and majoring in something that would put you in politics and have actual power to change things. Not joining some charity in your free time.

Helmholtz Watson:
Your right, I asked you for cliff notes and you provided them. So I guess I go back to my previous question, did you leave something out that proves that they were being neutral?

No, but that's the wrong question to ask. The mistake you're making is that you assume reading a paragraph attempting to condense five pages of material so satisfy your bizarrely finicky reading schedule is the same thing as actually reading all five pages.

If I claimed to understand the Bible based only on one person's summary of it, you'd call me an ignoramus.

I didn't tell you what your beliefs are, I said your text convey a certain attitude.

Same difference.

Antagonizing people is childish and non-productive.

And yet, here you are.

You should be sorry for thinking that antagonizing others is going to do anything productive.

And yet I'm not. Deal.

Tyler Perry has brought it up, nobody else. As for this topic, like I said, I both sides think their doing whats right. They are not the monsters some people wish to paint them as.

Just in this thread, Katatori brought it up as well. You do this a lot.

I don't recall ever accusing the side for the gay students being anti-Christian or bigots against Christians/Christianity. The closest I have ever came to that is stating that if both sides wore shirts that supported their views, anti-Christian shirts might be worn.

No, you said that the gay rights groups are guilty of screaming for attention without making actual arguments among other things. It's more of the same, "The other side does it too," argument that makes you look like a spineless apologist.

Not really, just asking you to back up your claim.

And you didn't know what my claim was.

lol, personal attack, eh? No, while I might defend their right to speak, I don't think kissing guys is a threat to America. If that was the case, than our country would be in serious trouble. I mean if kissing guys can destroy you, how can you be expected to go to war? How could you be expected to compete with other countries financially? So no, I don't think that it is a "serious threat".

Then why are you being an apologist for these people?

Yep, and all the Christians have to stay in the closet about their belief. Neither group gets a chance to express their views.

And you think that system would have no drawbacks or negative consequences? That it wouldn't end badly?

I was referring to this in the situation with Gay students not saying it is a sin. However then I guess Chrsitain students would have to be more specific and say that it is a sin in their religion, but this wouldn't be a issue at school because nobody should go around saying whether or not homosexuality is a sin

So we all just sit around and pretend to agree on everything, disguising our contempt for one another?

To children, your not going to be nice to children.

How mature of you, I'm sure screaming at them how wrong they are will force them to agree with you....because you know, you'll have left such a great impression. /sarcasm

Don't try to be glib with me. If you're a bully, you get fucking punished for the actions you take. And I have no sympathy for bullies.

You made a good point that I didn't think about. What about wearing clothes that promote your views? Don't sell yourself short, you pointed out something that raises a good question, can both sides wear clothes that support their views? To which I said only if it is not intended to provoke the other side with shirts that might say things like "Fuck Christians" or "Fuck Homosexuals".

You said that a kid wearing a Jesus T-shirt is okay, but not a gay kid wearing something with a rainbow on it, because hey! That gay pride symbol might be construed as antagonistic somehow.

Prove it, prove that it isn't religion and is ignorance, superstition and tribal mentality.

If you follow an Abrahamic religion, which tells you to love your enemy as your neighbor, and spout hatred, bigotry, intolerance and lies against a group of people, then you're just using religion as a cover for what is a personal vendetta.

Now explain to me how loving thy neighbor and letting your god be the one to judge every man when his time comes is compatible with the desire to judge someone in the here and now and treat them as an inferior?

Whether or not their right doesn't permit teachers the right to use swear words in describing the ideas of one student to another student.

"Bushwa" then. "Full of humbug." Or whatever other anachronistic language or baby talk that avoids offending your delicate sensibilities. Point stands. If you claim to be a Christian and openly preach hatred, then you're not a Christian. You're an asshole with a book you didn't read.

Then you express it in a childish and crude way.

Yawn. Adults use profanity everyday. Just because a bunch of ninnies got together and decided you can't say "fuck" on TV does not make you childish for saying "fuck."

Some of it. I hear some people give it shit, but that is mostly "hard science" people that I talk to, that seem to have some odd dislike for it. So yes, it is valid, though it has it's flaws.

Then why do you not accept this viewpoint that a lot of hatred comes from the "us vs them" mechanism in the brain, which is a carry over from our tribal hunter-gatherer days?

I didn't give up on anything, I said I don't care why students don't break the rules, just as long as they don't break the rules.

In that case, I stand corrected on that point. You're not defeatist, you just don't understand how causality works.

It has noting to do with being an adult and everything to do with how I find it stupid that you would suggest that I should read a entire book before I reply to you.

No, I just said it might help you understand better.

Tell you what, I'll go read the book when you go read both the old and new testament from cover to cover.

Deal. I believe the entire Bible can be accessed online. I'll break it into chunks and start work on it tomorrow.

I don't know nor do I care. If you randomly argue with people out on the street, you still won't be doing anything significant in the long run.

Who said it would be random?

Yep and that start would be going to college and majoring in something that would put you in politics and have actual power to change things. Not joining some charity in your free time.

Sad that you think that little of people.

Zaleznikel:
Helmholtz, I really want to hear what your perception of a "true neutrality" system put in place is. In what way did the Anoka Hennepin school system "cave into one side," and how would you prevent that from happening in a "true neutral" system?

They didn't stop bullying from happening because some of the religious parents accused that as an act of promoting homosexuality. I would set the parent of the religious students down with the parent of the gay students and tell them both that no bullying would be allowed to go on at the school. Also that neither group is allowed to be vocal about their beliefs at school and punishment will be handed out if the students do otherwise.

Zaleznikel:
What happens in hypothetical situations like these?

Jed tells Timmy that homosexuality is a sin, repeatedly, and that Timmy is going to burn in hell for eternity. This antagonizing upsets Timmy to the point where he does not want to go to school. Timmy brings this situation to the principal. What does the principal say to Timmy? To Jed?

The principle is to punish Jed for expressing his religious opinion to Timmy and for bullying Timmy. Timmy is to be sent to a school counselor to make him feel safe at school.

Zaleznikel:
Jed does not stop. Does the principal suspend Jed?

If this is reutine behavior, then yes.

Zaleznikel:
What if Jed's family threatens a lawsuit against the school for "violation of religious freedom." The school can't afford to lose, budgets are strained as is.

Then the school can have Timmy's family counter sue for vicious bullying, harrassment. Better yet, the school can get the government involved.

Zaleznikel:
If Lambda Legal were to come to aid the school, and the Alliance Defense Fund helps out Jed's family, wouldn't the situation be just another battleground and is no longer neutral?

Why wouldn't the situation be neutral? The school doesn't say that Jed can't have those views, but that he can't go tell Timmy those views.

DrVornoff:

No, but that's the wrong question to ask. The mistake you're making is that you assume reading a paragraph attempting to condense five pages of material so satisfy your bizarrely finicky reading schedule is the same thing as actually reading all five pages.

Again, your not showing me how the school was neutral.

DrVornoff:

Same difference.

Your contradicting yourself.

DrVornoff:

And yet, here you are.

lol, the difference between you and I is that I'm not proclaiming how I'm going to change the world, I'm debating on a thread. You are proclaiming how your going to change the world, and your proposed method is not productive nor is it mature.

DrVornoff:

No, you said that the gay rights groups are guilty of screaming for attention without making actual arguments among other things. It's more of the same, "The other side does it too," argument that makes you look like a spineless apologist.

Again with personal attacks, classy.

DrVornoff:

And you didn't know what my claim was.

So you can't back up your homophobe accusations, ok.

DrVornoff:

Then why are you being an apologist for these people?

I'm not, I don't agree with them about how to behave, I just agree that they have a right to have their opinion and feelings heard because their children go to these schools. If you had shown me an example of religious people getting pissed at a school for gay children and how they said it was promoting homosexuality, I would be right there with you telling them to deal with it. However that isn't the case, instead we find ourselves in a situation where both religious and gay students attend the same schools. :/

DrVornoff:

And you think that system would have no drawbacks or negative consequences? That it wouldn't end badly?

Hard to tell until its properly applied. Should some problems occur, I see no reason why they can't be worked out.

DrVornoff:

So we all just sit around and pretend to agree on everything, disguising our contempt for one another?

No, you stop talking to each other in class when you should be focusing on how to use the Pythagorean theorem or what year Christopher Columbus came to the Americas.

DrVornoff:

Don't try to be glib with me. If you're a bully, you get fucking punished for the actions you take. And I have no sympathy for bullies.

Bullies are children too. Your Rorschach style "justice" will do little besides light a fire under the religious families. Personal feelings(like your past being bullied in school) shouldn't get in the way when trying to fairly punish someone.

DrVornoff:

You said that a kid wearing a Jesus T-shirt is okay, but not a gay kid wearing something with a rainbow on it, because hey! That gay pride symbol might be construed as antagonistic somehow.

I said that "Jesus loves me" isn't antagonistic but that "Christian and Proud" could be. However if you think that Jesus loves me might cause conflict, then I'd side with you and say that it shouldn't be worn at school.

DrVornoff:

then you're just using religion as a cover for what is a personal vendetta.

Again you use your mind reading powers.

DrVornoff:

"Bushwa" then. "Full of humbug." Or whatever other anachronistic language or baby talk that avoids offending your delicate sensibilities.

Ok, as long as there is no swearing.

DrVornoff:
If you claim to be a Christian and openly preach hatred, then you're not a Christian. You're an asshole with a book you didn't read.

Your really making good use of your mind powers, huh?

DrVornoff:

Yawn. Adults use profanity everyday. Just because a bunch of ninnies got together and decided you can't say "fuck" on TV does not make you childish for saying "fuck."

It still makes you sound crude.

DrVornoff:

In that case, I stand corrected on that point. You're not defeatist,

Glad you admitted your wrong.

DrVornoff:
Deal. I believe the entire Bible can be accessed online. I'll break it into chunks and start work on it tomorrow.

Good, don't reply to me until you have read the entire thing.

DrVornoff:

Who said it would be random?

Then go shout at people protesting, have fun.

DrVornoff:

Sad that you think that little of people.

People as a whole? No. I only find humor in a random stranger on the internet proclaiming how all the small work he'll do will have some great impact. I encourage you to get a college major, go into state or federal politics and prove me wrong though. Make a serious change.

cthulhuspawn82:

cobra_ky:

cthulhuspawn82:

Or they could just say that bullying anyone is against the rules, and avoid pointing out specific groups of people. Its only a "gay" issue because they made it one by singling out gays and other groups mentioned above. These people wonder why there is so much division in our country when they are the ones that go out of their way to divide us all up into groups.

Edit: So is it OK for me to bully people for reasons not listed in the bill? Derp!

it's not really "singling out" when it's in a list of twenty other things and one of them is "any other distinguishing characteristic". I guess if you want to bully someone for breathing oxygen, you're welcome to.

The way this bill is worded, its like teaching gun safety by giving a list of people you shouldn't murder. "Please don't murder whites, blacks, jews, homosexuals..."

Wouldn't it be less idiotic to just say "Don't murder anyone"

Not if there was a significant proportion of the population who thought murdering homosexuals was acceptable.

The purpose of that wording is to explicitly state what kinds of behavior will not be tolerated, rather than leaving it up to interpretation whether harassing LGBT students is "an expression of religious belief".

Helmholtz Watson:
Again, your not showing me how the school was neutral.

And again, you're looking at it from the wrong angle. The tried to do what you want to do. It didn't work. Teachers had no idea what "promoting homosexuality" would look like. The neutrality policy made it impossible to adjudicate, especially when a teacher's job was on the line.

In trying to make everyone happy, no one was happy.

You are proclaiming how your going to change the world,

No, I'm calling bullshit and saying what I would like to see done.

Again with personal attacks, classy.

And again, you deflect criticism by playing the victim card. Very mature.

So you can't back up your homophobe accusations, ok.

I keep providing my explanations and rationale and logic, and you just keep whining that it's not enough. You want a signed, written confession.

If you had shown me an example of religious people getting pissed at a school for gay children and how they said it was promoting homosexuality, I would be right there with you telling them to deal with it.

It was in the goddamn article. The one I keep telling you to read.

Hard to tell until its properly applied. Should some problems occur, I see no reason why they can't be worked out.

Then you don't pay very good attention. We tried this shit. It didn't work.

No, you stop talking to each other in class when you should be focusing on how to use the Pythagorean theorem or what year Christopher Columbus came to the Americas.

So remove the social element from the schools? Prevent people from learning how to interact with people who are different from or disagree with them philosophically? Brilliant. Can't see that having any negative consequences.

Bullies are children too. Your Rorschach style "justice" will do little besides light a fire under the religious families. Personal feelings(like your past being bullied in school) shouldn't get in the way when trying to fairly punish someone.

When all else fails, resort to hyperbole.

I said that "Jesus loves me" isn't antagonistic but that "Christian and Proud" could be. However if you think that Jesus loves me might cause conflict, then I'd side with you and say that it shouldn't be worn at school.

No, I don't. Again, what church you go to is your business, not mine. And if you're allowed to wear a Jesus T-shirt or a star of David pendant or a turban and comb (Sikhs, in case you were wondering), then the gay kid should get to wear the damn rainbow. And if just one person takes offense to that, too bad.

Again you use your mind reading powers.

So you believe that Christians who hate and desire violence are Christlike and understand that teachings of the man they profess to be their savior?

Also, how many people do you really believe actually read their Bible?

Ok, as long as there is no swearing.

So let's not change the sentiment or emotion or intent behind our words. Let's not actually be nicer to each other. Let's just dress it all up in different words that don't make a bunch of sensitive ninnies cry. Really?

Your really making good use of your mind powers, huh?

See above. Compared to you, I apparently am a mind reader. At least I have a rudimentary grasp over human nature.

It still makes you sound crude.

Being angry in general isn't a pretty sight. So what's the difference?

Glad you admitted your wrong.

And you avoid addressing the other point. Seriously, do you have any concept of how morality and ethics are formed in a developing mind? If you'll pardon me using someone else's joke, you can't create a moral person just by bludgeoning them upside the head with a big sign that says, "DON'T!"

Good, don't reply to me until you have read the entire thing.

No.

Then go shout at people protesting, have fun.

Who said it would be shouting? Who said it would only be at protests? Do you that little imagination or do you just think that little of my intelligence? Or are you deliberately trying to mischaracterize me this way?

People as a whole? No. I only find humor in a random stranger on the internet proclaiming how all the small work he'll do will have some great impact.

Or what you imagine is someone so. I never actually made these claims. You either didn't read what I said or you are deliberately mischaracterizing me in order to make the appeal to ridicule fallacy. Which is it?

I encourage you to get a college major, go into state or federal politics and prove me wrong though. Make a serious change.

No you don't.

DrVornoff:

Helmholtz Watson:
Again, your not showing me how the school was neutral.

And again, you're looking at it from the wrong angle. The tried to do what you want to do. It didn't work. Teachers had no idea what "promoting homosexuality" would look like. The neutrality policy made it impossible to adjudicate, especially when a teacher's job was on the line.

In trying to make everyone happy, no one was happy.

You are proclaiming how your going to change the world,

No, I'm calling bullshit and saying what I would like to see done.

Again with personal attacks, classy.

And again, you deflect criticism by playing the victim card. Very mature.

So you can't back up your homophobe accusations, ok.

I keep providing my explanations and rationale and logic, and you just keep whining that it's not enough. You want a signed, written confession.

If you had shown me an example of religious people getting pissed at a school for gay children and how they said it was promoting homosexuality, I would be right there with you telling them to deal with it.

It was in the goddamn article. The one I keep telling you to read.

Hard to tell until its properly applied. Should some problems occur, I see no reason why they can't be worked out.

Then you don't pay very good attention. We tried this shit. It didn't work.

No, you stop talking to each other in class when you should be focusing on how to use the Pythagorean theorem or what year Christopher Columbus came to the Americas.

So remove the social element from the schools? Prevent people from learning how to interact with people who are different from or disagree with them philosophically? Brilliant. Can't see that having any negative consequences.

Bullies are children too. Your Rorschach style "justice" will do little besides light a fire under the religious families. Personal feelings(like your past being bullied in school) shouldn't get in the way when trying to fairly punish someone.

When all else fails, resort to hyperbole.

I said that "Jesus loves me" isn't antagonistic but that "Christian and Proud" could be. However if you think that Jesus loves me might cause conflict, then I'd side with you and say that it shouldn't be worn at school.

No, I don't. Again, what church you go to is your business, not mine. And if you're allowed to wear a Jesus T-shirt or a star of David pendant or a turban and comb (Sikhs, in case you were wondering), then the gay kid should get to wear the damn rainbow. And if just one person takes offense to that, too bad.

Again you use your mind reading powers.

So you believe that Christians who hate and desire violence are Christlike and understand that teachings of the man they profess to be their savior?

Also, how many people do you really believe actually read their Bible?

Ok, as long as there is no swearing.

So let's not change the sentiment or emotion or intent behind our words. Let's not actually be nicer to each other. Let's just dress it all up in different words that don't make a bunch of sensitive ninnies cry. Really?

Your really making good use of your mind powers, huh?

See above. Compared to you, I apparently am a mind reader. At least I have a rudimentary grasp over human nature.

It still makes you sound crude.

Being angry in general isn't a pretty sight. So what's the difference?

Glad you admitted your wrong.

And you avoid addressing the other point. Seriously, do you have any concept of how morality and ethics are formed in a developing mind? If you'll pardon me using someone else's joke, you can't create a moral person just by bludgeoning them upside the head with a big sign that says, "DON'T!"

Good, don't reply to me until you have read the entire thing.

No.

Then go shout at people protesting, have fun.

Who said it would be shouting? Who said it would only be at protests? Do you that little imagination or do you just think that little of my intelligence? Or are you deliberately trying to mischaracterize me this way?

People as a whole? No. I only find humor in a random stranger on the internet proclaiming how all the small work he'll do will have some great impact.

Or what you imagine is someone so. I never actually made these claims. You either didn't read what I said or you are deliberately mischaracterizing me in order to make the appeal to ridicule fallacy. Which is it?

I encourage you to get a college major, go into state or federal politics and prove me wrong though. Make a serious change.

No you don't.

He isn't going to get it.

He really believes Logic and Reason are just "opinions" and science is just more "opinions."

When he is fighting science using the responses of a 5 year old, he ain't gonna learn shit. He's probably going to use religion as a shield. Never mind the fact that religion never stands up even the lightest of scrutiny, because he dismisses any sort of scientific thought as "opinions." Never mind the fact religion always fails when it tries to contest science on an educational ground anyway.

Anyone as anti-science as him would never learn anything.

Ultratwinkie:
He isn't going to get it.

He really believes Logic and Reason are just "opinions" and science is just more "opinions."

At the very least he seems to think that opinions are something to hide behind. What frustrates me more is his insistence on making the argument more about what an asshole I am than how to deal with bigots.

I just can't believe there are still people taking this attitude of, "We can't give gays a voice, so let's not give anybody a voice! I would rather give up my own rights than share them with a queer." And it's only exacerbated by the fact that she's shown himself to be utterly incurious about the world around him and refuses to do even a nanosecond of research before shooting his mouth off and firing off one logical fallacy or false equivalency after another. I just can't imagine living like that.

DrVornoff:

Ultratwinkie:
He isn't going to get it.

He really believes Logic and Reason are just "opinions" and science is just more "opinions."

At the very least he seems to think that opinions are something to hide behind. What frustrates me more is his insistence on making the argument more about what an asshole I am than how to deal with bigots.

I just can't believe there are still people taking this attitude of, "We can't give gays a voice, so let's not give anybody a voice! I would rather give up my own rights than share them with a queer." And it's only exacerbated by the fact that she's shown himself to be utterly incurious about the world around him and refuses to do even a nanosecond of research before shooting his mouth off and firing off one logical fallacy or false equivalency after another. I just can't imagine living like that.

I even brought up evolution with him. Didn't work.

Religion has failed time and time again to get its dogma is schools. Many classes are against religious claims in the first place. School has been teaching religion was wrong in many instances for a while now.

Its not exactly "new" to tell religion they are explicitly wrong in an educational setting.

Ultratwinkie:

DrVornoff:

Ultratwinkie:
He isn't going to get it.

He really believes Logic and Reason are just "opinions" and science is just more "opinions."

At the very least he seems to think that opinions are something to hide behind. What frustrates me more is his insistence on making the argument more about what an asshole I am than how to deal with bigots.

I just can't believe there are still people taking this attitude of, "We can't give gays a voice, so let's not give anybody a voice! I would rather give up my own rights than share them with a queer." And it's only exacerbated by the fact that she's shown himself to be utterly incurious about the world around him and refuses to do even a nanosecond of research before shooting his mouth off and firing off one logical fallacy or false equivalency after another. I just can't imagine living like that.

I even brought up evolution with him. Didn't work.

Religion has failed time and time again to get its dogma is schools. Many classes are against religious claims in the first place. School has been teaching religion was wrong in many instances for a while now.

Its not exactly "new" to tell religion they are explicitly wrong in an educational setting.

When did you bring up evolution?

DrVornoff:

I just can't believe there are still people taking this attitude of, "We can't give gays a voice, so let's not give anybody a voice!

Nobody said that gay students can voice their opinions outside of school. I just said that school isn't the place for it.

DrVornoff:
And it's only exacerbated by the fact that she's shown himself to be ...

...what? I'm not a girl.

DrVornoff:

The tried to do what you want to do.

No they didn't they caved in and didn't stop bullying from happening.

DrVornoff:

No, I'm calling bullshit and saying what I would like to see done.

You specifically told me how you were going to start small and join mentoring programs. Like I said, your trying to declare how your going to change society.

DrVornoff:

I keep providing my explanations and rationale and logic, and you just keep whining that it's not enough.

You haven't provide any evidence that religion wasn't the cause of their feelings towards homosexuality, instead you rather just call them names.

DrVornoff:

It was in the goddamn article. The one I keep telling you to read.

So there was an exclusively gay school? Why didn't you mention that before?

DrVornoff:

Then you don't pay very good attention. We tried this shit. It didn't work.

No you showed me a school that kowtowed to the religious and ignored bullying. Nothing but false conclusions.

DrVornoff:

So remove the social element from the schools? Prevent people from learning how to interact with people who are different from or disagree with them philosophically? Brilliant. Can't see that having any negative consequences.

I didn't say that, just that in the classroom you should focus on the lesson that is being taught. At recess, you can converse with the entire school for all I care.

DrVornoff:

When all else fails, resort to hyperbole.

Disappointed to see that your not disagreeing on how to treat children that misbehave.

DrVornoff:

No, I don't. Again, what church you go to is your business, not mine. And if you're allowed to wear a Jesus T-shirt or a star of David pendant or a turban and comb (Sikhs, in case you were wondering), then the gay kid should get to wear the damn rainbow. And if just one person takes offense to that, too bad.

Which is why I reexamined my point and said that your right that it would be unfair to allow the Jesus shirt but not the rainbow, so my stance is don't allow either.

DrVornoff:

So you believe that Christians who hate and desire violence are Christlike and understand that teachings of the man they profess to be their savior?

I don't know what they are like, but I know that their behavior doesn't tell me whether or not they have read a book.

DrVornoff:

So let's not change the sentiment or emotion or intent behind our words. Let's not actually be nicer to each other. Let's just dress it all up in different words that don't make a bunch of sensitive ninnies cry. Really?

Again teachers shouldn't be swearing, regardless who they are talking to.

DrVornoff:

No.

Perhaps this is the part where I am to complain about how your really missing out because you have not read it yet.

DrVornoff:

Who said it would be shouting? Who said it would only be at protests? Do you that little imagination or do you just think that little of my intelligence? Or are you deliberately trying to mischaracterize me this way?

Honestly, I don't really care how you debate people in your free time.

DrVornoff:

Or what you imagine is someone so. I never actually made these claims. You either didn't read what I said or you are deliberately mischaracterizing me in order to make the appeal to ridicule fallacy. Which is it?

Neither.

DrVornoff:

No you don't.

...yes, yes I do.

Ultratwinkie:

He really believes Logic and Reason are just "opinions" and science is just more "opinions."

I never said that, nor do I agree with that stance.

Ultratwinkie:
Never mind the fact that religion never stands up even the lightest of scrutiny, because he dismisses any sort of scientific thought as "opinions."

What are you talking about? You wanted to prove a claim that can't be proven and base an stance on that. You can't prove or disprove the presence of the divine, so your comments about sins don't hold up.

Ultratwinkie:

Anyone as anti-science as him would never learn anything.

lol, you really don't know what your talking about.

Helmholtz Watson:

Ultratwinkie:

He really believes Logic and Reason are just "opinions" and science is just more "opinions."

I never said that, nor do I agree with that stance.

Ultratwinkie:
Never mind the fact that religion never stands up even the lightest of scrutiny, because he dismisses any sort of scientific thought as "opinions."

What are you talking about? You wanted to prove a claim that can't be proven and base an stance on that. You can't prove or disprove the presence of the divine, so your comments about sins don't hold up.

Ultratwinkie:

Anyone as anti-science as him would never learn anything.

lol, you really don't know what your talking about.

Actually yes you did.

1. I said that claims need evidence. A claim that God exists need evidence. You didn't provide any evidence to suggest we should follow dogmatic rules. That sins are "real" instead of made up doctrine. Any attempt to say that you need evidence to back up claims with "oh that's just a shiny opinion." To call requiring evidence an opinion is to call all of science an opinion.

There being no Abrahamic God isn't a claim, its a result of the religious failing to back that claim up.

For sin to actually exist. You need a proven god. Without a proven god, you only have books that are more contradictory than Mitt Romney. The only argument that has actual merit would be a Deistic god, and a Deistic god would not issue a list of sins.

2. I am very sure I brought up evolution as an example of how religion failed to control schools. If we teach evolution as right, why must we tip toe around the gays?

We practically shattered creationism, why not shatter the homophobia as well?

Ultratwinkie:
There being no Abrahamic God isn't a claim, its a result of the religious failing to back that claim up,

But providing an alternative to the divine does require backing up.

Ultratwinkie:
For sin to actually exist. You need a proven god. Without a proven god, you only have books that are more contradictory than Mitt Romney.

And seeing as nobody can prove that the Divine is made up, we are in a stand still. It can't currently be known whether or not the Divine exist, so it is up for people to decide biased on their own opinion.

Helmholtz Watson:

Ultratwinkie:
There being no Abrahamic God isn't a claim, its a result of the religious failing to back that claim up,

But providing an alternative to the divine does require backing up.

Ultratwinkie:
For sin to actually exist. You need a proven god. Without a proven god, you only have books that are more contradictory than Mitt Romney.

And seeing as nobody can prove that the Divine is made up, we are in a stand still. It can't currently be known whether or not the Divine exist, so it is up for people to decide biased on their own opinion.

You are suggesting a NEED for the divine. There is no real need for a Abrahamic God. The alternative to a divine God is right here. Its the universe we in habit. That's it. Its one of the best arguments there is.

A god does not necessarily mean divine nor a need to create religious laws. Hell, there is M-Theory for that.

I don't see Helmholtz as "anti-science," I just see him as a relentless apologist for any and all and someone who simply cannot admit that, in some debates, one side is right and one side is wrong. In this and other discussions, he is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS, 100 percent of the time, seeking to draw often-false equivalencies.

DrVornoff:

In practical terms, same thing.

In reality, no its not.

DrVornoff:

They didn't stop it from happening because the teachers were worried that would come across as promoting homosexuality and the religious parents would sue.

Now your just flat out admitting that they were not neutral.

DrVornoff:
Neutrality policies do not tell you where the line is drawn on what is and is not promotion, and even if they do, I guarantee there will be a group who will argue loudly that you're crossing the line by doing pretty much anything.

Of that I have no doubt.

DrVornoff:

Do you always ask people to prove a negative?

So it can't be proven, then you should move on from the baseless name calling.

DrVornoff:

No! Fucking pay attention. Get off your lazy ass and do your own damn research instead of demanding to be spoonfed every single scrap of information.

Or you can not leave out information.

DrVornoff:

You didn't do the homework.

You did it for me, remember ;)

DrVornoff:
Don't tell me what I saw in my research that you didn't read.

Unless you left something out, your drawing false conclusions.

DrVornoff:

Just don't talk about your personal life because someone might find that offensive.

If it starts fights, then yeah.

DrVornoff:

Get used to disappointment. When you compare to me a cartoon vigilante over what you think I said, you don't have an argument and I'm going to waste time indulging your fantasies.

Your the one coming off as if, when the misbehaving children do act out they should be treated in a very harsh manner with no consideration for their age.

DrVornoff:

Which is bullshit.

That's your opinion I guess.

DrVornoff:

Bullshit.

Why yes! Your claim to know if they have read a book is bullshit.

DrVornoff:

No. The response was to you insisting that you should get the last word.

I'm just copying you and insisting that you should read an entire book to better understand my side.

DrVornoff:

Wrong answer.

Nope.

DrVornoff:

Prove it.

Ok, in your free time please research a the best college you can get into with your GPA and apply there. When they ask you about your major, please pick political science. From there, you should set up an appointment with a counselor on what classes would be the best to choose for someone that wants to go into politics. For more information, please go here.

Ultratwinkie:

Its the universe we in habit. That's it. Its one of the best arguments there is.

What created the universe?

Tyler Perry:
I don't see Helmholtz as "anti-science,"

:D

Tyler Perry:
I just see him as a relentless apologist for any and all

aawww dang, dog! I thought that you liked me for a second. Also....

I have to ask... you know when I asked to use your mind reading powers? And you read the minds of the creators of the Skyrim DLC? Is there anything you learned that wasn't featured in the trailer for the new DLC?

Helmholtz Watson:

Tyler Perry:
I don't see Helmholtz as "anti-science,"

:D

Tyler Perry:
I just see him as a relentless apologist for any and all

aawww dang, dog! I thought that you liked me for a second. Also....

I have to ask... you know when I asked to use your mind reading powers? And you read the minds of the creators of the Skyrim DLC? Is there anything you learned that wasn't featured in the trailer for the new DLC?

Remember when I ignored your utterly pointless comment, because apparently to you, drawing a reasonable conclusion regarding your mindset based entirely on my interactions with you = "mind-reading abilities"? I certainly do.

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