Helmholtz Watson: Great, then instead of continuing to argue and lecture me on what I can and can not say, why not go back to the OP and discuss the topic of teaching kids about bullying? You really are making a mountain out of a molehill.
It would be a mountain out of a molehill if this was the only time you've done this. You do it all the time in nearly every single thread I see you post in, it needed to be addressed. Now that I've done that you can continue to post "EVERY1 DOES IT XDDDDDDDDD" for every issue and pretend it's always relevant.
Also, I'm not telling you what you can and cannot say, I'm telling you how fucking stupid it is to say "both sides do it hue hue hue" completely ignoring the OP in your quest to ensure the forum doesn't just bitch out the shitty decision made by conservatives in the OP article.
I dislike the conservative party/group that blocked this bill. If any other party had blocked it for the reasons of "i'm scared of something but I don't know what", I'd be saying the exact same thing.
Even after reading the OP article again, I'm still not sure why they blocked it. Maybe you could help offer any insights to why they blocked this bill at all?
Slander is slander. If I got up on a soapbox in front of the White House and shouted "Obama is a murderer, rapist, thieving monkey," I could be tried and convicted of slander because all of those things are demonstrably untrue.
It is unlikely, however. That'd be political suicide.
Well, except the monkey thing, considering we are all monkeys.
Slander isn't actually illegal on the federal level or in Washington D.C., so you'd be perfectly fine. Other than people passing by thinking you're a total lunatic. You could technically be sued to high hell though. :p
/buzzkillington
OT: When politicians start using anti-homosexuality propaganda against laws that don't actually focus on homosexuality, is that when we can start punching them in the mouth? Yeah, yeah, violence is not the answer, but you can only reason with dicks so much.
It would be a mountain out of a molehill if this was the only time you've done this. You do it all the time in nearly every single thread I see you post in, it needed to be addressed.
lol, I apologize that I don't take a game websites forum on politics with the same seriousness that you do.
Zekksta: Now that I've done that you can continue to post "EVERY1 DOES IT XDDDDDDDDD" for every issue and pretend it's always relevant.
And you can continue to single out my comments on threads and make strawmen remarks about what I say.
Zekksta: Also, I'm not telling you what you can and cannot say, I'm telling you how fucking stupid it is to say "both sides do it hue hue hue" completely ignoring the OP in your quest to ensure the forum doesn't just bitch out the shitty decision made by conservatives in the OP article.
Except my comment was relevant to the person I responded to, no matter how much you hate it. As for my intent, it was to show that conservative fears can be true at times. But if you think that I'm trying to stop the OP's subject from being discussed, let me be the first to say I don't care what you(not you personally) think about homosexuality.
School is not the place for that. Whether or not you hate or love gay people has nothing to do with teaching kids algebra, world history, how to paint/draw and science on gravity. Keep your opinions on the subject of homosexuality(or any form of sexuality for that matter) to yourself. Students should be there to learn the subjects I mentioned, not engage in petty shit like bulling people for who they kiss in their free time.
Zekksta: I dislike the conservative party/group that blocked this bill. If any other party had blocked it for the reasons of "i'm scared of something but I don't know what", I'd be saying the exact same thing.
Helmholtz Watson: lol, I apologize that I don't take a game websites forum on politics with the same seriousness that you do.
I think you might, considering you nearly have more posts than I have despite being here for a much shorter period. Seems like an odd insult to toss out in that situation.
Snipes aside, I don't take a forum seriously, but you as a person exist, so if you say something on a public forum, I'll respond to you as if you're a person, not a figment of my imagination. If you had said this in real life, I would have responded in the same way, it has nothing to do with the forum.
Helmholtz Watson: Except my comment was relevant to the person I responded to
No it wasn't.
Helmholtz Watson: As for my intent, it was to show that conservative fears can be true at times. But if you think that I'm trying to stop the OP's subject from being discussed, let me be the first to say I don't care what you(not you personally) think about homosexuality.
Ah look, discussion finally.
Yes, the fears of conservatives can be true, and are rarely baseless.
Helmholtz Watson: School is not the place for that. Whether or not you hate or love gay people has nothing to do with teaching kids algebra, world history, how to paint/draw and science on gravity.
100% agree.
Helmholtz Watson: Keep your opinions on the subject of homosexuality(or any form of sexuality for that matter) to yourself. Students should be there to learn the subjects I mentioned, not engage in petty shit like bulling people for who they kiss in their free time.
Yes, and here is the problem.
It is also a goal of schools to prevent bullying. Bullying against gay students is a pretty big problem.
This bill is to help combat issues of gay bullying in school and and giving them opportunity to make their allegations privately and anonymously (not sure how much I like the anonymously thing but whatever, since it's been blocked for completely different reasons I guess the point is moot).
The conservative party in this case has chosen to ban it because "it could be used as cover to indoctrinate kids? I dunno?"
My question is, for what?
For what could this be indoctrination for?
Are they afraid that after a gay kid is bullied, someone will console them by saying "it's okay to be gay, you're still human, you have the same rights, it doesn't make you defective".
I mean what are they so worried about in this situation?
From my point of view in this situation, there is nothing to warrant being concerned about indoctrination coming from this program. That's why I started on you posting that link and saying "both sides do it", because a separate issue is not relevant, and definitely shouldn't impact, the decision to ban this bill.
Snipes aside, I don't take a forum seriously, but you as a person exist. If you had said this in real life, I would have responded in the same way, it has nothing to do with the forum.
Great, your still making a mountain out of a molehill.
Helmholtz Watson: Keep your opinions on the subject of homosexuality(or any form of sexuality for that matter) to yourself. Students should be there to learn the subjects I mentioned, not engage in petty shit like bulling people for who they kiss in their free time.
Yes, and here is the problem.
It is also a goal of schools to prevent bullying.
True.
Zekksta: This bill is to combat issues of gay bullying in school and and giving them opportunity to make their allegations privately and anonymously (not sure how much I like the anonymously thing but whatever, since it's been blocked for completely different reasons I guess the point is moot).
The conservative party in this case has chosen to ban it because "it could be used as cover to indoctrinate kids? I dunno?"
My question is, for what?
For what could this be indoctrination for?
You would have to ask the people who came up with the indoctrinate idea.
Zekksta: Are they afraid that after a gay kid is bullied, someone will console them by saying "it's okay to be gay, you're still human, you have the same rights, it doesn't make you defective".
I mean what are they so worried about in this situation?
From my point of view in this situation, there is nothing to warrant being concerned about indoctrination coming from this program. That's why I started on you posting that link and saying "both sides do it", because a separate issue is not relevant, and definitely shouldn't impact, the decision to ban this bill.
Again I wasn't debating the bill, just the idea that conservatives don't have any base to their fears.
Check again, you have more post than me by about 300.
I said nearly. You've already smashed my posts per day average.
Helmholtz Watson: You would have to ask the people who came up with the indoctrinate idea.
Again I wasn't debating the bill, just the idea that conservatives don't have any base to their fears.
If you want to be relevant, maybe explain how the conservatives in this case that we're currently discussing in this thread have a basis to their fears in this instance.
Where is the basis for this fear of indoctrination in this instance?
Helmholtz Watson: You would have to ask the people who came up with the indoctrinate idea.
Again I wasn't debating the bill, just the idea that conservatives don't have any base to their fears.
If you want to be relevant, maybe explain how the conservatives in this case that we're currently discussing in this thread have a basis to their fears in this instance.
Where is the basis for this fear of indoctrination in this instance?
Again I don't know what their fear is, that school will encourage straight students to experiment I guess? I really don't know.
Helmholtz Watson: Maybe, again I don't know what the cause of the fear is, so I'm the wrong person to ask.
So you don't know if their fears are baseless or not in this instance, but you're here to defend conservatives because "their fears aren't always baseless as some would imply".
Helmholtz Watson: Maybe, again I don't know what the cause of the fear is, so I'm the wrong person to ask.
So you don't know if their fears are baseless or not in this instance, but you're here to defend conservatives because "their fears aren't always baseless as some would imply".
Thanks man, that was really helpful.
You are asking me if a different person based their view on real experiences or not. People who I have never met. How can I honestly tell you if a person I never met based their claim on any real life experiences?
Helmholtz Watson: You are asking me if a different person based their view on real experiences or not. People who I have never met. How can I honestly tell you if a person I never met based their claim on any real life experiences?
Dude.
I am asking you if the conservative party in question has any logical reason to suspect/fear that letting an anti-bullying bill go through would lead to gay indoctrination. I'm not asking you why each and every member who hates gay people personally hate gay people.
Helmholtz Watson: You are asking me if a different person based their view on real experiences or not. People who I have never met. How can I honestly tell you if a person I never met based their claim on any real life experiences?
Dude.
I am asking you if the conservative party in question has any logical reason to suspect/fear that letting an anti-bullying bill go through would lead to gay indoctrination. I'm not asking you why each and every member who hates gay people personally hate gay people.
Ok. I haven't looked into the subject but if I had to guess, no. There is no reason to fear indoctrination, it sounds silly and paranoid.
The only way to get the bullies to stop is with a show of force. At least with male bullies. The realm of passive-aggressive female bullying confuses me. All this anti-bullying counseling does abso-fucking-lutely nothing as by the time the kids are caught bullying others they are already socialized to bully others.
Helmholtz Watson: Except my comment was relevant to the person I responded to, no matter how much you hate it. As for my intent, it was to show that conservative fears can be true at times. But if you think that I'm trying to stop the OP's subject from being discussed, let me be the first to say I don't care what you(not you personally) think about homosexuality.
School is not the place for that. Whether or not you hate or love gay people has nothing to do with teaching kids algebra, world history, how to paint/draw and science on gravity. Keep your opinions on the subject of homosexuality(or any form of sexuality for that matter) to yourself. Students should be there to learn the subjects I mentioned, not engage in petty shit like bulling people for who they kiss in their free time.
*sigh*
You know, school represents a fairly unique situation in a person's life. They're stuck in an environment which they cannot leave with hundreds or thousands of people their own age; an age where the pecking order seems incredibly important and the easiest way to climb the social ladder is to look down and pick on others. A school is, however, supposed to be a learning environment. As such, it is the school's responsibility to ensure that its students feel safe.
This is not happening for the gay and lesbian youth. They more often than not do not feel safe in their school. And to quote Dan Savage: "The dehumanizing bigotries that fall from the lips of "faithful Christians," and the lies about us that vomit out from the pulpits of churches that "faithful Christians" drag their kids to on Sundays, give your children license to verbally abuse, humiliate, and condemn the gay children they encounter at school. And many of your children-having listened to Mom and Dad talk about how gay marriage is a threat to family and how gay sex makes their magic sky friend Jesus cry-feel justified in physically abusing the LGBT children they encounter in their schools."
Schools have not just every right, but complete responsibility to deal with this issue. It is the responsibility of schools to ensure that students have a safe learning environment, and part of that includes counteracting what the Pastor said about "those god-hating fags" last Sunday. Part of it includes informing the students that it is okay to be homosexual, and that it is not okay to hate them for it. This is a basic job every school needs to handle.
Oh, and, by the way, your claim that "the democrats do it too" would make a lot more sense if entire arms of the democratic party consisted of homophobes.
As mindblowingly retarded as his rationale is for stopping the bill, it's not like the bill would've done anything besides making schools set aside even more of their tight budgets to tell kids what they already know: "Bullying's bad, m'kay?" Bullying is caused by deeper social and economic issues that people like to ignore. Law makers need to realize that they can't draft up some more school regulations and expect it to kill the problem.
Let me guess that you are refering to a certain person which names starts with S?
No he's referring to Volf, who every time it's shown that his "side" does retarded shit, he immediately trots off to find a liberal doing something questionable (regardless of whether it's comparable or not) to pull out ye olde faithful "everyone does it lol" card.
It's really getting annoying because it completely detracts from what the topic of the thread is actually meant to be about, instead, it focuses the debate on some shitty red herring that has zero relevance.
OT: I think it's pretty disgusting, I don't think there's much more to be said on the issue.
First off my "side" isn't always conservative, and second, both sides do push their own agendas on children.
First off, bollocks, link me to a post of yours where you adopt a position that's even a hair's breadth left-of-centre, because I've never read such a post before.
Secondly, this "both sides do it" shite with regards to school is really, really disingenuous, because it's simply not comparable. Occasionally, you or Seeks or one of the other "I aint a right-winger, honest guv!" posters will dig up a solitary example of a single teacher saying or doing something objectionable, the story for which allows it to be cast as a somewhat partisan issue that leans left. You then pretend that these handful of incidents are somehow equivalent to the massive, organised, and GOP-supported right-wing movements to tear down science education, to alter your history books with right-wing propaganda("Slavery? Oh no no no, 'Atlantic triangle trade'"), and to fight any legislation or school policy designed to prevent religious extremists and bigoted little shitstains from bullying other kids to the point of suicide.
What's with the recent crackdown on any advancement for gay rights in the US? The states tends to be a bit slow in this department, but recently I'm seeing so many news stories about states actively opposing any advancement relating to gay rights.
Promethax: As mindblowingly retarded as his rationale is for stopping the bill, it's not like the bill would've done anything besides making schools set aside even more of their tight budgets to tell kids what they already know: "Bullying's bad, m'kay?"
How about expanding your education funding then?
Bullying is caused by deeper social and economic issues that people like to ignore. Law makers need to realize that they can't draft up some more school regulations and expect it to kill the problem.
Indeed, you should be going even further. The fact that Christian fundamentalists can have such infleuence in so many aspects your society despite it all being in violation of your constsiution is frightening.
(This isn't directed at you personally, more of a general point).
First off, bollocks, link me to a post of yours where you adopt a position that's even a hair's breadth left-of-centre, because I've never read such a post before.
Magichead: Secondly, this "both sides do it" shite with regards to school is really, really disingenuous, because it's simply not comparable. Occasionally, you or Seeks or one of the other "I aint a right-winger, honest guv!" posters will dig up a solitary example of a single teacher saying or doing something objectionable, the story for which allows it to be cast as a somewhat partisan issue that leans left. You then pretend that these handful of incidents are somehow equivalent to the massive, organised, and GOP-supported right-wing movements to tear down science education, to alter your history books with right-wing propaganda("Slavery? Oh no no no, 'Atlantic triangle trade'"), and to fight any legislation or school policy designed to prevent religious extremists and bigoted little shitstains from bullying other kids to the point of suicide.
^ This.
This false-equivalence bullshit is getting aggravating.
Even if someone were to make a being-gay-is-ok case rather than merely sticking to the "just don't bully them" line it's nowhere near as bad as the alternative, which is letting these little fuckwipes bully people to the point of suicide with impunity.
You know, school represents a fairly unique situation in a person's life. They're stuck in an environment which they cannot leave with hundreds or thousands of people their own age; an age where the pecking order seems incredibly important and the easiest way to climb the social ladder is to look down and pick on others. A school is, however, supposed to be a learning environment. As such, it is the school's responsibility to ensure that its students feel safe.
Yep I agree.
Stagnant: unnecessary side comment about how much you hate religion
Uh huh.
Stagnant: Schools have not just every right, but complete responsibility to deal with this issue. It is the responsibility of schools to ensure that students have a safe learning environment, and part of that includes counteracting what the Pastor said about "those god-hating fags" last Sunday. Part of it includes informing the students that it is okay to be homosexual, and that it is not okay to hate them for it. This is a basic job every school needs to handle.
I'm not against schools stopping bulling from happening, I'm against schools going farther than that and telling kids what to think about homosexuality. It doesn't matter if your religion is against homosexuality, bulling should not be tolerated.
Stagnant: Oh, and, by the way, your claim that "the democrats do it too" would make a lot more sense if entire arms of the democratic party consisted of homophobes.
Good thing my comment was just about teachers pushing their ideas on student and had nothing to do with whether or not Democrats are homophobic.
Helmholtz Watson: and second, both sides do push their own agendas on children.
And this comment right here displays everything that is wrong with political discourse in the US.
Because you're trying to make the sides in this into a Democrat/left vs. Republican/right match-up.
True but I think that the conservatives need to be defended too. I've seen too many comments on here where people make comments like the one I originally responded to. Yes there are stupid conservatives. However, not every conservative fear is based off nothing. There are some conserns that are legitimate.
So I'll put it to you straight: Do you think the conservative fears that this anti-bullying bill will lead to indoctrination are legitimate? Is it better to have no chance that a child might hear that it's okay to be gay than to make sure bullies aren't pushing gay or allegedly gay children to suicide just for being different?
Katatori-kun: When the real sides are: "people who think children shouldn't be bullied just because they are alleged to be homosexual" vs. "people who think that if the schools do anything whatsoever to protect children from homophobic bullying then that must lead to a pro-gay agenda indoctrination". And the second group won.
My comment isn't about that argument, it is about the idea of whether or not there are teachers which push liberal views on students. [/quote]
Which is a very odd thing to bring up if it's not relevant to the argument in the OP. So how is your comment relevant?
Stagnant: Schools have not just every right, but complete responsibility to deal with this issue. It is the responsibility of schools to ensure that students have a safe learning environment, and part of that includes counteracting what the Pastor said about "those god-hating fags" last Sunday. Part of it includes informing the students that it is okay to be homosexual, and that it is not okay to hate them for it. This is a basic job every school needs to handle.
I'm not against schools stopping bulling from happening, I'm against schools going farther than that and telling kids what to think about homosexuality. It doesn't matter if your religion is against homosexuality, bulling should not be tolerated.
So you do support the pro-bully parent position that this bill must lead to indoctrination then?
Is it better to have no chance that a child might hear that it's okay to be gay than to make sure bullies aren't pushing gay or allegedly gay children to suicide just for being different?
So I'll put it to you straight: Do you think the conservative fears that this anti-bullying bill will lead to indoctrination are legitimate?
No, it sounds like paranoia.
It is a response to a comment that fears conservatives have are without any base.
But you just said the entire basis for their opposition was paranoia. Which is it? Are the opponents of this bill paranoid and without base, or is there some merit to them?
So I'll put it to you straight: Do you think the conservative fears that this anti-bullying bill will lead to indoctrination are legitimate?
No, it sounds like paranoia.
It is a response to a comment that fears conservatives have are without any base.
But you just said the entire basis for their opposition was paranoia. Which is it? Are the opponents of this bill paranoid and without base, or is there some merit to them?
No, the comment I responded to made a sweeping generalization about all conservative fears to which I responded that not every single conservative fear is without a base.
But you just said the entire basis for their opposition was paranoia. Which is it? Are the opponents of this bill paranoid and without base, or is there some merit to them?
No, the comment I responded to made a sweeping generalization about all conservative fears to which I responded that not every single conservative fear is without a base.
The comment you were responding to was very obviously about this situation. There was absolutely no content in the post that could lead someone to conclude it was intended to be about conservatives in general. Only if one was a knee-jerk defender of all conservatives all the time no matter what they say could evilneko's comment be deemed in need of a rebuttal.
Helmholtz Watson: I'm not against schools stopping bulling from happening, I'm against schools going farther than that and telling kids what to think about homosexuality.
We tell them racism is bullshit. What's the fucking difference? You want to curtail bullying? Then you need to use education to crush this anachronistic superstition like the useless, miserable detriment to society that it is. In school, you teach facts. And the fact is that no matter what someone psycho-Christian anti-intellectual moron has to say, it's okay to be gay. Anyone who says differently is wrong and must be stood up to.
Helmholtz Watson: I'm not against schools stopping bulling from happening, I'm against schools going farther than that and telling kids what to think about homosexuality.
We tell them racism is bullshit. What's the fucking difference? You want to curtail bullying? Then you need to use education to crush this anachronistic superstition like the useless, miserable detriment to society that it is. In school, you teach facts. And the fact is that no matter what someone psycho-Christian anti-intellectual moron has to say, it's okay to be gay. Anyone who says differently is wrong and must be stood up to.
Precisely.
The anti-gay lobby have had long enough to concoct a decent argument, and they've failed.
Stagnant: unnecessary side comment about how much you hate religion
Uh huh.
No, that's neither unnecessary nor beside the point. It's directly on-point. Many religious people are getting told at home, in church, and by their friends and family that being gay is not okay. That homosexuality is morally reprehensible and disgusting. What do you do about that? I'd say that even just for the kids who themselves are gay, teaching that it's okay to be gay is the right thing to do.
I'm not against schools stopping bulling from happening, I'm against schools going farther than that and telling kids what to think about homosexuality. It doesn't matter if your religion is against homosexuality, bulling should not be tolerated.
Okay. Now what if the best way to stop the bullying was to reinforce a cultural attitude that being gay is okay?
What if that was the ONLY way?
And also, you know what? You say we shouldn't advocate homosexuality being okay. I disagree. I think we should, and I welcome you to either say the same thing about being black, or retract your statement.
Obviously.
It would be a mountain out of a molehill if this was the only time you've done this. You do it all the time in nearly every single thread I see you post in, it needed to be addressed. Now that I've done that you can continue to post "EVERY1 DOES IT XDDDDDDDDD" for every issue and pretend it's always relevant.
Also, I'm not telling you what you can and cannot say, I'm telling you how fucking stupid it is to say "both sides do it hue hue hue" completely ignoring the OP in your quest to ensure the forum doesn't just bitch out the shitty decision made by conservatives in the OP article.
I dislike the conservative party/group that blocked this bill. If any other party had blocked it for the reasons of "i'm scared of something but I don't know what", I'd be saying the exact same thing.
Even after reading the OP article again, I'm still not sure why they blocked it. Maybe you could help offer any insights to why they blocked this bill at all?