Barrier of Entry: My main criticism of Free Market Capitalism and its effect on Social Mobility.

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NOTE: This isn't a thread where I bash Fiscal Conservatives, I'm just voicing my main issue with the Free Market and looking for a solution to my issue that's consistent with Capitalism.

Well I've noticed a lot of threads recently that have contained arguements between two sides of the economic spectrum. The recent topic I've seen is Stagnant's counter points to the concept of the "self-made man", and I've thought of an issue that is seldom discussed by itself (Its usualy part of the centre/right US debate we see every 16 seconds around here).

See, my main problem with fiscal conservatism/Capitalism/Objectivism is that it rarely deals with the issue of Barrier of Entry, how a person from the lower class is supposed to be able to gain the capital needed to form a business while paying bills and taxes at the same time.

I find it also extends to education as well: How is someone supposed to be able to pay for their education on top of cost of living without racking up a massive amount of debt?


This is my main problem with Libertarianism, without minimal support for education, or providing options for the lower classes to aquire capital for businesses, how is someone supposed to fund their own business, craft, or practice? If everything is privatised and de-regulated to such an extent, how is someone supposed to improve themselves without the needed capital?

I'm not looking to attack anyone, just asking for an answer to my problem.

Apologies if this OP is rambling/disjointed.

Ninjamedic:
See, my main problem with fiscal conservatism/Capitalism/Objectivism is that it rarely deals with the issue of Barrier of Entry, how a person from the lower class is supposed to be able to gain the capital needed to form a business while paying bills and taxes at the same time.

You can lend money for small amounts of capital, for example a house and some 'machinery' to run a restaurant or something like that.

We can't give everyone access to a huge factory with millions of dollars of equipment, and the free market is probably better at dividing what we have than 'the government'.
I do think that the use of for example ground should be taxed heavily.

Ninjamedic:
I find it also extends to education as well: How is someone supposed to be able to pay for their education on top of cost of living without racking up a massive amount of debt?

Most of the time you earn a lot of money when you've had a proper education, or at least enough money to pay for you're education. If nobody is willing to invest in the education of your choice, well, bad luck.
I personally think that there should be 'social government lending'. (don't know how to translate 'sociaal leenstelsel') Basically, you can lend from the government with good conditions.

Danyal:

You can lend money for small amounts of capital, for example a house and some 'machinery' to run a restaurant or something like that.

What if the loans are unreasonable, given lack of regulation on the lenders? (Hypothetically)

We can't give everyone access to a huge factory with millions of dollars of equipment, and the free market is probably better at dividing what we have than 'the government'.
I do think that the use of for example ground should be taxed heavily.

Of course I don't think that large businesses should be that easy to set up, I'm just looking at the inital barrier of entry for small scale businesses.

Most of the time you earn a lot of money when you've had a proper education, or at least enough money to pay for you're education. If nobody is willing to invest in the education of your choice, well, bad luck.

It's these situations that concern me.

I personally think that there should be 'social government lending'. (don't know how to translate 'sociaal leenstelsel') Basically, you can lend from the government with good conditions.

Agreed, maybe something akin to the GI Bill after the second world war (but on a far smaller scale).

Ninjamedic:
NOTE: This isn't a thread where I bash Fiscal Conservatives, I'm just voicing my main issue with the Free Market and looking for a solution to my issue that's consistent with Capitalism.

Well I've noticed a lot of threads recently that have contained arguements between two sides of the economic spectrum. The recent topic I've seen is Stagnant's counter points to the concept of the "self-made man", and I've thought of an issue that is seldom discussed by itself (Its usualy part of the centre/right US debate we see every 16 seconds around here).

See, my main problem with fiscal conservatism/Capitalism/Objectivism is that it rarely deals with the issue of Barrier of Entry, how a person from the lower class is supposed to be able to gain the capital needed to form a business while paying bills and taxes at the same time.

I find it also extends to education as well: How is someone supposed to be able to pay for their education on top of cost of living without racking up a massive amount of debt?


This is my main problem with Libertarianism, without minimal support for education, or providing options for the lower classes to aquire capital for businesses, how is someone supposed to fund their own business, craft, or practice? If everything is privatised and de-regulated to such an extent, how is someone supposed to improve themselves without the needed capital?

I'm not looking to attack anyone, just asking for an answer to my problem.

Apologies if this OP is rambling/disjointed.

Kickstarter.

It really is a game-changer.

adamtm:

Kickstarter.

It really is a game-changer.

Hopefully, I can see it being a boon for AA games.

As a new busness owner myself I can tell you one of the BIGGEST barriers is rent. In our area there is a phenomenon where we have 40-50% vacancies, but the landlords don't want to lower the rent because "i would devalue their property". I once asked by landlord if he'd rather have $2000 a month from 20 people or $3000 a month from 10...sounds like easy math right? But he would rather keep 10 vacancies and make $10,000 less per month. I pointed out that by his business model and the 10 vacancies he's had for more than 3 years he's already lost $360,000 (he's turned away plenty of potential businesses and in turn hurt the entire shopping center with less businesses to help pool customers). But the landlords keep thinking that if hey jsut keep their prices at "market value" businesses will eventually drop into their lap and they'll make top dollar. Frankly, if your data on what "market value" is results in 40-50% vacancies you are reading the chart WORNG.

Danyal:
Most of the time you earn a lot of money when you've had a proper education, or at least enough money to pay for you're education. If nobody is willing to invest in the education of your choice, well, bad luck.

Okay, there are two ways I could interpret this.

The first way I see it is that you have to have a job skill that the market is willing to pay tons of money for, or you're fucked. But society requires thousands of different kinds of jobs to function. What are we supposed to do if you don't pay the people at least enough to live off of? Well, we're seeing it right now with massive debts and poverty having a negative effect on the economy.

The second way is the suggestion that you should find someone willing to privately invest in your education so that they can hire you later and reap the benefits of your work. To which my question is, who's going to pay for someone to get a music degree? How about an economics degree? Philosophy, Classics, poli-sci, archaeology, English lit? I believe Thomas Sowell suggested this system, but it doesn't work in reality.

Ever heard of loans? Ever heard of savings? Ever heard of investments? And that and more is possible under a free market system.

As for education, you do realize that there are multiple libertarian ideologies including socialist libertarians who would provide public education within the commune (or similar). As for the rest, education systems can exist no problem but what we need are GOOD education systems. That is where the free market comes into play because if your school sucks then you cannot get students and you go under but if your school is good then you get students.

farson135:
Ever heard of loans? Ever heard of savings? Ever heard of investments? And that and more is possible under a free market system.

I was talking of a situation wherin most (if not all)of the persons money was going out to pay bills. As for Loans, don't you have to have built up a credit rating?

Not to mention with private education there is also the problem of paying the costs on top of cost of living.

Dragonclaw:
As a new busness owner myself I can tell you one of the BIGGEST barriers is rent. In our area there is a phenomenon where we have 40-50% vacancies, but the landlords don't want to lower the rent because "i would devalue their property". I once asked by landlord if he'd rather have $2000 a month from 20 people or $3000 a month from 10...sounds like easy math right? But he would rather keep 10 vacancies and make $10,000 less per month. I pointed out that by his business model and the 10 vacancies he's had for more than 3 years he's already lost $360,000 (he's turned away plenty of potential businesses and in turn hurt the entire shopping center with less businesses to help pool customers). But the landlords keep thinking that if hey jsut keep their prices at "market value" businesses will eventually drop into their lap and they'll make top dollar. Frankly, if your data on what "market value" is results in 40-50% vacancies you are reading the chart WORNG.

This phenomina, where companies refuse to change their policies despite it clearly resulting in both short term and long term losses, was particularly devistating in the US housing market. Instead of demanding the full payment immediately, thru could have alternatively offered to modify all of the housing loans to better match the actual price of the houses and at least recoup the majority of the loan (and possibly all of it) instead of foreclosing and loosing the majority of it. It's the result of effectively automating the financial system where decisions are made by algorithm rather than by judgment.

Ninjamedic:
I was talking of a situation wherin most (if not all)of the persons money was going out to pay bills.

Then they should get themselves out from under that before they start trying to get rich. Look, I am a college student, I have many, many side jobs and the money I earn pays for much of my tuition as well as food, rent, and utilities. Most people who cannot find work are not looking hard enough or they do not want to do dirty jobs. Far too many of my fellow college students have a sense of entitlement and cannot understand why I am willing to clean out someone's gutter despite my level of education (my answer is that I only do it to the tune of Der Freischütz :) ). If people would just fucking work they could get out much easier. Unfortunately we teach people to be helpless. Hell, I have to turn away lots of jobs, not because I do not have the expertise or the equipment to do the job, but instead because I do not have the time to do them all. If there are that many jobs available in the middle of a recession then how the fuck are so many people out of work? Or, more to your point, how can they have trouble paying bills when there is so much extra work out there that pays so much? I have almost no competition. I am not just working in Austin but also in my home town (you want work, there are lots of ranch hand and assistant farmer positions open) and where my mother lives. I take up work where ever I go and I never have had trouble finding it.

As for Loans, don't you have to have built up a credit rating?

Not that hard to do.

Not to mention with private education there is also the problem of paying the costs on top of cost of living.

You do realize that public education can also have a free market element too, right? See, Japan.

Ninjamedic:

farson135:
Ever heard of loans? Ever heard of savings? Ever heard of investments? And that and more is possible under a free market system.

I was talking of a situation wherin most (if not all)of the persons money was going out to pay bills. As for Loans, don't you have to have built up a credit rating?

Not to mention with private education there is also the problem of paying the costs on top of cost of living.

There are other ways at getting money as well.

Your idea good enough, or your business most likely profitable enough? Their is this thing called "Angel Investors," old businessmen who are always looking for smart ideas to fund, to be run by a younger generation that understands the modern world. If your idea not good enough to get around people who have been in business for decades, you may want to reconsider your idea.

farson135:
Ever heard of loans? Ever heard of savings? Ever heard of investments? And that and more is possible under a free market system.

Possible, but not necessarily accessible.

That is where the free market comes into play because if your school sucks then you cannot get students and you go under but if your school is good then you get students.

The problem I always had is that sounds good on paper, but what about when a virtual monopoly in a region is created? When the debate about net neutrality came up, I had a few dumbasses tell me to switch to another ISP if I didn't like it, but there aren't any in my region. I have Verizon. That's it. And they didn't rise to the top of the heap by providing better service than everyone else. They used every shady tactic they could think of to lock out competition.

farson135:
Most people who cannot find work are not looking hard enough or they do not want to do dirty jobs.

What about during a recession when there aren't enough jobs to go around? What then?

If people would just fucking work they could get out much easier.

Assuming of course they could make a livable wage. The guys still at my previous day job are now getting saddled with 60-hour work weeks for shit money because management decided to fire half the department to cut costs.

If there are that many jobs available in the middle of a recession then how the fuck are so many people out of work?

You believe that your personal experience is indicative of the entire economic situation everywhere in the country? Seriously? That's like saying that the weather is the same thing as the climate.

(you want work, there are lots of ranch hand and assistant farmer positions open)

Great for you, but what does a guy do in Pittsburgh where jobs like that don't exist?

You found a way to get work. Good for you. But why do you think that works everywhere all the time for every single person? Also, I'm really getting sick of the logic, "I only make 100x more than you because I work 100x harder than you." It's such bullshit I have to question how many of the people who say it actually believe it.

farson135:
Most people who cannot find work are not looking hard enough or they do not want to do dirty jobs. Far too many of my fellow college students have a sense of entitlement and cannot understand why I am willing to clean out someone's gutter despite my level of education (my answer is that I only do it to the tune of Der Freischütz :) ). If people would just fucking work they could get out much easier. Unfortunately we teach people to be helpless. Hell, I have to turn away lots of jobs, not because I do not have the expertise or the equipment to do the job, but instead because I do not have the time to do them all. If there are that many jobs available in the middle of a recession then how the fuck are so many people out of work? Or, more to your point, how can they have trouble paying bills when there is so much extra work out there that pays so much? I have almost no competition. I am not just working in Austin but also in my home town (you want work, there are lots of ranch hand and assistant farmer positions open) and where my mother lives. I take up work where ever I go and I never have had trouble finding it.

Now, this may shock you, but not everybody lives in your neck of the woods, pardner. I live in something called a city. It's a place with no horses, we're you're not allowed to wear your six-shooter or lasso people. The sheriff doesn't know you personally, and neither do his deputies. There's no fighting allowed in the saloons, either. Weird, eh? Now, I'd have to leave my home, and I'd have to say goodbye to my buddy ole' palls, and I'd have to give up school, and I'd have to move if I wanted to get a job as a ranch hand. That, or I can drive for four hours to and from work, which would mean I'm actually losing money on fuel. Plus, that's four hours I can't spend studying. And then there's the issue of accommodation! Now, don't say I could sleep in a tent, because if a dugite didn't slither in and bite me on the pecker (causing death and mild to severe pecker irritation), exposure would probably kill me after a while. So ranch handing isn't a viable option. Especially since none of those places are hiring 'round here. It's working for you, though, so maybe I just need to ranch handle harder.

DrVornoff:
Possible, but not necessarily accessible.

Actually they are quite accessible.

The problem I always had is that sounds good on paper, but what about when a virtual monopoly in a region is created? When the debate about net neutrality came up, I had a few dumbasses tell me to switch to another ISP if I didn't like it, but there aren't any in my region. I have Verizon. That's it. And they didn't rise to the top of the heap by providing better service than everyone else. They used every shady tactic they could think of to lock out competition.

And yet the Japanese are kicking America's ass when it comes to education. Apparently allowing schools to compete with each other has not lead to a monopoly with them.

What about during a recession when there aren't enough jobs to go around? What then?

Actually there are. That is my point. There are more jobs than I can handle here in Austin and in my family's home town and in the area that my mom lives. Hell, I have not had to clean a septic tank in years because there is so much work that I can pick my jobs.

Many jobs are even more plentiful during a recession. How many people are driving crappy cars right now because they do not have the money to buy a new one? Do you know how many cars I have "repaired" in the past 3 months? 19. A grand total of $3,000 in my account and most of it for very little labor. That is a little more than 4 months of rent for a grand total of about 24 hours of work (more if you factor in the time I spent trying to find cheap parts but that is not real work).

Assuming of course they could make a livable wage. The guys still at my previous day job are now getting saddled with 60-hour work weeks for shit money because management decided to fire half the department to cut costs.

I am doing just fine. If I did not have to pay for college I would have lots of money left over (and a hell of a lot more time to myself).

You believe that your personal experience is indicative of the entire economic situation everywhere in the country? Seriously? That's like saying that the weather is the same thing as the climate.

Actually there are always odd jobs around. Since the beginning of time jack-of-all-trades have found work plentiful even in the most desperate of times. Why? Because there is always something that needs to be done IF you look for it.

Great for you, but what does a guy do in Pittsburgh where jobs like that don't exist?

How about you move down the central Texas and get the work? What exactly is tying you to that area? If you have no job then why take yourself elsewhere before you lose too much money to even move?

There is a reason I tell people not to buy a house until you retire (unless extenuating circumstances allow it). Mobility is one of the key assets of the young.

But why do you think that works everywhere all the time for every single person?

Because everybody needs odd jobs done now and again. Are you telling me that no one near you has ever had plumbing problems? What about an old couple that needs the grass mowed? A recent widow who needs help moving her husband's things to the attic (I actually didn't take anything for that one)? Or how about a guy who wants his great-great grandfathers desk restored? Or how about a kid who just bought a used car and needs to have basic maintenance done on it? What about a person who is moving out/in? What about a tutoring job?

Every single one of those things I have done and every single one of those things is a common job to be found just about anywhere in the US.

Also, I'm really getting sick of the logic, "I only make 100x more than you because I work 100x harder than you." It's such bullshit I have to question how many of the people who say it actually believe it.

Ok, I make a 100x more than you because I work more than you AND I am smart enough to find work. If you cannot find the kind of jobs I just listed then you are either a hermit or you are just not looking. These jobs I listed are fucking common. That is not even close to encapsulating the shear variety of jobs I have done. THEY EXIST and in large numbers. JUST LOOK FOR THEM.

Reginald:
Now, this may shock you, but not everybody lives in your neck of the woods, pardner. I live in something called a city. It's a place with no horses, we're you're not allowed to wear your six-shooter or lasso people. The sheriff doesn't know you personally, and neither do his deputies. There's no fighting allowed in the saloons, either. Weird, eh? Now, I'd have to leave my home, and I'd have to say goodbye to my buddy ole' palls, and I'd have to give up school, and I'd have to move if I wanted to get a job as a ranch hand. That, or I can drive for four hours to and from work, which would mean I'm actually losing money on fuel. Plus, that's four hours I can't spend studying. And then there's the issue of accommodation! Now, don't say I could sleep in a tent, because if a dugite didn't slither in and bite me on the pecker (causing death and mild to severe pecker irritation), exposure would probably kill me after a while. So ranch handing isn't a viable option. Especially since none of those places are hiring 'round here. It's working for you, though, so maybe I just need to ranch handle harder.

Way to miss the point.

First of all, I live in a city (I go to UT Austin). My family's home town is in the country and my mom lives to the east of Houston.

Second of all, read my above post about the shear variety of jobs that exist in this world.

Third of all, I may still have a bit of my East Texas Twang but I would appreciate it if you cut the shit.

Lastly, if you want work we got plenty down here. There is also plenty around you but, since y'all are too fucking blind to see it, I suppose I will have to extend an invitation.

Some areas have been hit MUCH harder than others. I have people coming in to my store every week hoping I'm hiring and offering to leave a resume...I own a COMIC BOOK STORE...you don't normally need a resume (or the advanced degrees I've seen on them) to work here...you need to know enough to talk about Batman and Spider-Man, and hopefully how to file back issues alpha-numerically. When people with a Masters are hoping to get a minimum wage (or less since the couple guys who DO work for me just want a few comics for their efforts...it's like High Fidelity, they just started showing up every day and started working...I've never hired anybody...)

farson135:

Reginald:
Now, this may shock you, but not everybody lives in your neck of the woods, pardner. I live in something called a city. It's a place with no horses, we're you're not allowed to wear your six-shooter or lasso people. The sheriff doesn't know you personally, and neither do his deputies. There's no fighting allowed in the saloons, either. Weird, eh? Now, I'd have to leave my home, and I'd have to say goodbye to my buddy ole' palls, and I'd have to give up school, and I'd have to move if I wanted to get a job as a ranch hand. That, or I can drive for four hours to and from work, which would mean I'm actually losing money on fuel. Plus, that's four hours I can't spend studying. And then there's the issue of accommodation! Now, don't say I could sleep in a tent, because if a dugite didn't slither in and bite me on the pecker (causing death and mild to severe pecker irritation), exposure would probably kill me after a while. So ranch handing isn't a viable option. Especially since none of those places are hiring 'round here. It's working for you, though, so maybe I just need to ranch handle harder.

Way to miss the point.

First of all, I live in a city (I go to UT Austin). My family's home town is in the country and my mom lives to the east of Houston.

Second of all, read my above post about the shear variety of jobs that exist in this world.

Third of all, I may still have a bit of my East Texas Twang but I would appreciate it if you cut the shit.

Lastly, if you want work we got plenty down here. There is also plenty around you but, since y'all are too fucking blind to see it, I suppose I will have to extend an invitation.

Ever lived in Western Australia? No? Well, shoot, son, I guess ya'll just talkin' out yer ass. If yer not, well, shucks, I better go an' tell them good ole' boys bak'n Ireland and New Zealand ain't no reason for 'em to go leaving their dang ole' country to seek out work, hey? Plenty of jobs everywhere. I'll te'll my pardners what hopped over the them Eastern states, too. All them fellers I knew with them engineering degrees who can't get jobs in the mines on the count of them not knowin' the right folks.

Reginald:
Snip

Boy, I am a very patient person and I feel that since you posted I should answer but if you do not cut the shit I am not going to answer again. I have had a long ass day (fuck, a long ass week) and I am not in the mood for your bullshit.

Ever lived in Western Australia? No? Well, shoot, son, I guess ya'll just talkin' out yer ass. If yer not, well, shucks, I better go an' tell them good ole' boys bak'n Ireland and New Zealand ain't no reason for 'em to go leaving their dang ole' country to seek out work, hey? Plenty of jobs everywhere. I'll te'll my pardners what hopped over the them Eastern states, too. All them fellers I knew with them engineering degrees who can't get jobs in the mines on the count of them not knowin' the right folks.

Actually there are more than enough jobs. You may not be able to work in your career of choice but in hard times you do what you have to do. If you cannot find anyone in your area that needs odd jobs done then you are not looking. If there is no one in your area then perhaps you should move since you won't find much work out in the middle of nowhere.

farson135:

Reginald:
Now, this may shock you, but not everybody lives in your neck of the woods, pardner. I live in something called a city. It's a place with no horses, we're you're not allowed to wear your six-shooter or lasso people. The sheriff doesn't know you personally, and neither do his deputies. There's no fighting allowed in the saloons, either. Weird, eh? Now, I'd have to leave my home, and I'd have to say goodbye to my buddy ole' palls, and I'd have to give up school, and I'd have to move if I wanted to get a job as a ranch hand. That, or I can drive for four hours to and from work, which would mean I'm actually losing money on fuel. Plus, that's four hours I can't spend studying. And then there's the issue of accommodation! Now, don't say I could sleep in a tent, because if a dugite didn't slither in and bite me on the pecker (causing death and mild to severe pecker irritation), exposure would probably kill me after a while. So ranch handing isn't a viable option. Especially since none of those places are hiring 'round here. It's working for you, though, so maybe I just need to ranch handle harder.

Way to miss the point.

First of all, I live in a city (I go to UT Austin). My family's home town is in the country and my mom lives to the east of Houston.

Second of all, read my above post about the shear variety of jobs that exist in this world.

Third of all, I may still have a bit of my East Texas Twang but I would appreciate it if you cut the shit.

Lastly, if you want work we got plenty down here. There is also plenty around you but, since y'all are too fucking blind to see it, I suppose I will have to extend an invitation.

That's an odd tale you tell. Texas has the highest poverty rate in the U.S. If there were so many great jobs down there, then why is there so much poverty?

Dragonclaw:
Some areas have been hit MUCH harder than others. I have people coming in to my store every week hoping I'm hiring and offering to leave a resume...I own a COMIC BOOK STORE...you don't normally need a resume (or the advanced degrees I've seen on them) to work here...you need to know enough to talk about Batman and Spider-Man, and hopefully how to file back issues alpha-numerically. When people with a Masters are hoping to get a minimum wage (or less since the couple guys who DO work for me just want a few comics for their efforts...it's like High Fidelity, they just started showing up every day and started working...I've never hired anybody...)

You know I am a small business owner too. Right now I have my masters and am working on my doctorate in History but I am a gunsmith on the side (along with being a general odd jobs man). I know how hard the recession hit, I know it better than most. The thing is though there are lots of opportunities out there. A couple of weeks ago a friend's apartments AC unit went out and he asked me to fix it. Why? A repair man cost a hell of a lot more than I do and if the problem is simple why pay so much? I have fixed more cars since the recession hit than ever before. People cannot afford to buy new cars so they either get old ones or use their old cars. Lots of repair work there. Then you have all the repair work these bikes need.

For those with less mechanical aptitude, there is simple grunt work. A friend of a friend owns a bar and he needed a few extra bouncers for a night. Then of course the university always needs people to set up for some event or another. Landscapers are always in short supply (for a decent price at least). Then you have just general scrounging. Lots of trips to the junk yard. And of course kids need tutors the world over. And on.

Having a formal job is overrated. It is nice but you take what you can get in this world. If you are out of work then there are lots of things you can do. Take your skills and apply them to whatever work you can get. If for whatever reason you cannot find work in one place, go somewhere else. However, given the amount I have had to travel over the past few years I find it hard to believe that most of the same jobs I do here do not exist somewhere else. I mean it is not like Pennsylvania has perfected cars to the point that they do not need maintenance.

Leadfinger:
That's an odd tale you tell. Texas has the highest poverty rate in the U.S. If there were so many great jobs down there, then why is there so much poverty?

No it doesn't. Several states have far higher poverty rates than Texas- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_poverty_rate

You want to know why? Partially it has to do with the economic make-up of the state. Lots of small hold farmers.

Partially it has to do with immigration and naturalization. A person come into the state and doesn't know the language. You can't get a decent job that way. Plus they come here poor to begin with and that does not change much. Ever heard of colonias? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonia_(United_States)

Partially it has to do with education, you can declare all you want but the fact is that there are lots of people who never have and never will care about education and that will never improve anything.

Partially it has to do with hundreds of other factors. None of which has anything to do with a lack of work within the state.

Basically, the state is dragged down by very bad areas. Those areas are not poor due to lack of jobs they are poor for more reasons than I can even get to.

BTW you want to know how wide the difference is between the colonia and the rest of the state? Here you go, top 10 fastest growing citing in the US-

#1 Austin
#2 Dallas
#4 Houston
#9 San Antonio

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mlj45hfdf/americas-fastest-growing-cities/#gallerycontent

In 2011 there were 21 applicants for every job opening. In 2010 it was 46. There are nearly 13 million unemployed. It is simple math, not everyone can get work.

You say you are doing fine finding odd jobs to do and that anyone can do it. Lets take the 6% unemployment in Austin, with a population of 790,000, with a work force participation of around 60-65% you have 500,000 workers in Austin. 6% unemployed means 30,000 without work.

For every odd job that you do, to give everyone else work, there would need to be 30,000 other odd jobs. It just is not mathematically possible for everyone to have work. It is not even economically desirable.

You also claim that people can simply move to find work. There is a major flaw with this plan though. Moving from Austin to Philly will not create job openings. If there were jobs to do in City B don't you think that people from City B would be doing those jobs.

farson135:
Actually they are quite accessible.

Then explain to me why I can't get a loan, Adam Smith. Explain to me what I'm supposed to save when all of my money is going toward paying off my student loan debts. Do tell me what money I am supposed to make investments with.

And yet the Japanese are kicking America's ass when it comes to education. Apparently allowing schools to compete with each other has not lead to a monopoly with them.

You're sidestepping my point and refusing to answer the question. Also, I seriously doubt that "competition" is the sole reason that Japan is ahead of us in education. Maybe you should ask Katatori what his thoughts on the matter are? After all, he did teach there.

Actually there are. That is my point.

No, you provided me with an anecdote. That is not a stable argument.

Many jobs are even more plentiful during a recession. How many people are driving crappy cars right now because they do not have the money to buy a new one? Do you know how many cars I have "repaired" in the past 3 months? 19. A grand total of $3,000 in my account and most of it for very little labor. That is a little more than 4 months of rent for a grand total of about 24 hours of work (more if you factor in the time I spent trying to find cheap parts but that is not real work).

Most of those require skills or resources that I do not possess like a car and the knowledge to fix one.

I am doing just fine. If I did not have to pay for college I would have lots of money left over (and a hell of a lot more time to myself).

Good for you. How does this help me?

Actually there are always odd jobs around. Since the beginning of time jack-of-all-trades have found work plentiful even in the most desperate of times. Why? Because there is always something that needs to be done IF you look for it.

How does fixing cars help a guy who doesn't know how to do that? To learn that skill would require more time and money. That's effort that I could spend busking or developing my business.

How about you move down the central Texas and get the work? What exactly is tying you to that area? If you have no job then why take yourself elsewhere before you lose too much money to even move?

There is a reason I tell people not to buy a house until you retire (unless extenuating circumstances allow it). Mobility is one of the key assets of the young.

... Because I don't have a car, nor could I afford to move and I don't know anyone in the area. Jesus cross-dressing Christ! How fucking short-sighted do you have to be not to think of something so goddamn obvious? How fucking arrogant does a person have to be to completely ignore the fact that not everyone has the same resources at their disposal?

You think it's easy to move halfway across the country? Prove it. Move here to Pittsburgh so I can see your dynamism in action. No, I'm not going to put you up. Nor will I pay for your transportation. Nor will I put in a good word for you with anyone, because I don't fucking know you.

Because everybody needs odd jobs done now and again. Are you telling me that no one near you has ever had plumbing problems? What about an old couple that needs the grass mowed? A recent widow who needs help moving her husband's things to the attic (I actually didn't take anything for that one)? Or how about a guy who wants his great-great grandfathers desk restored? Or how about a kid who just bought a used car and needs to have basic maintenance done on it? What about a person who is moving out/in? What about a tutoring job?

Again, requiring skills or resources that I don't have and all of my neighbors hate my guts. I'm stuck in this awful fucking neighborhood living with family because I couldn't afford rent. Whoever said the entertainment industry is recession-proof needs a kick in the throat.

On that note, I'd like to see you try busking under a hot July sun wearing solid black five days a week. Try it and then tell me I don't work hard for my money. Try booking gigs and let me know how that works out for you. Oh, even try getting a movie made on a no-string budget.

Ok, I make a 100x more than you because I work more than you AND I am smart enough to find work. If you cannot find the kind of jobs I just listed then you are either a hermit or you are just not looking. These jobs I listed are fucking common. That is not even close to encapsulating the shear variety of jobs I have done. THEY EXIST and in large numbers. JUST LOOK FOR THEM.

Same difference. You are deliberately conflating, "Anyone can be successful," with "Everyone can be successful." Do you actually believe that?

pyrate:
For every odd job that you do, to give everyone else work, there would need to be 30,000 other odd jobs. It just is not mathematically possible for everyone to have work.

Yes it is. If every house has plumbing and every house has to have maintenance from time to time that is a shit ton of work right there. Clubs needs bouncers, and bouncers take off from time to time and do not leave notice. Many school children need tutors and I am a hell of a lot cheaper than a professional tutor.

It is not even economically desirable.

A bunch of people taking odd jobs when times are tough and getting a long term job when they can. You are mistaking long term work with basic survival.

You also claim that people can simply move to find work. There is a major flaw with this plan though. Moving from Austin to Philly will not create job openings. If there were jobs to do in City B don't you think that people from City B would be doing those jobs.

If they are not looking for the jobs or not willing to do them, then no. There are lots of people in my family's home town but few of them are actually willing to bust their ass at their family's farm/ranch and at someone else's farm/ranch. That is where outside hired hands come into play (if there were any).

DrVornoff:
Then explain to me why I can't get them, Adam Smith.

I do not know you. Maybe you took out a $10,000 loan and went bankrupt. Maybe you defaulted on a lot of payments. Maybe you have a god-awful credit score. Etc.

Why don't you explain to me why cannot get a loan, Aergia?

You're sidestepping my point and refusing to answer the question. Also, I seriously doubt that "competition" is the sole reason that Japan is ahead of us in education.

You said something may happen in location 1 if we did A. I said it did not happen in location 2 when they did A therefore (barring extenuating circumstances) there is no reason A would have a significantly different effect in 1. That is a complete answer to your question (inconvenient perhaps but still an answer).

BTW when did I say sole reason? Try not to make up what I say.

Most of those require skills or resources that I do not possess like a car and the knowledge to fix one.

That is an example. People spend less during a recession therefore they look to cheaper ways to do things. My friend hires me to fix his AC unit instead of hiring a repair guy. He saves and I get money. If you cannot fix an AC then help some people when they are moving or any one of a billion other jobs.

How does fixing cars help a guy who doesn't know how to do that? To learn that skill would require more time and money. That's effort that I could spend busking.

One single example and you cannot figure anything else out. Wow.

... Because I don't have a car, nor could I afford to move. Jesus cross-dressing Christ! How fucking short-sighted do you have to be not to think of something so goddamn obvious? How fucking arrogant does a person have to be to completely that not everyone has the same resources at their disposal?

Wow, if only there were other transportation means other than a car. Like maybe a transportation system like a car, but larger and able to fit more people. Then what if that transportation system was cheap enough that you could travel from Philadelphia to Austin for only about $200. Too bad such a thing does not exist (/sarcasm). This is not that fucking hard to figure out. If you cannot figure out a way to get $200 in this society then there really is no hope for you. There are any number of easy odd jobs you can find that would pay you that in a few days and since you are living off family you will not have to spend much to maintain yourself. Hell, a few days of grunt work would probably do you good.

Look, if you have no skills, are a fucking moron, and do not have use of any of your limbs then yeah, you are a useless member of society and you will never get a job as anything but a paper weight. Barring that there are jobs aplenty out there IF you look for them.

Again, requiring skills or resources that I don't have and all of my neighbors hate my guts. I'm stuck in this awful fucking neighborhood living with family because I couldn't afford rent.

So you are fucked over because people do not like you. Guess what, the fact that people do not like you might be the reason you cannot find work. People here like me. I do good work and people like to talk to me. If you are an ass then sorry there is work available but you barred yourself from getting it. If they don't like you for no reason that still does not mean that jobs are unavailable it just means that you are barred from them.

It does not require many resources or skills to do many jobs (you have a distinct lack of imagination). Here is one of my later posts-

"For those with less mechanical aptitude, there is simple grunt work. A friend of a friend owns a bar and he needed a few extra bouncers for a night. Then of course the university always needs people to set up for some event or another. Landscapers are always in short supply (for a decent price at least). Then you have just general scrounging. Lots of trips to the junk yard. And of course kids need tutors the world over. And on."

Same difference. You are deliberately conflating, "Anyone can be successful," with "Everyone can be successful." Do you actually believe that?

Considering I have never said "everyone can be successful" obviously not. YOU are simply too narrow minded to see the resources around you. You have everything you need to make a decent living without having a full time job. You just have to look for it. Problem is that too many people expect to be handed work. If you cannot find work then you are not looking hard enough.

farson135:
Yes it is. If every house has plumbing and every house has to have maintenance from time to time that is a shit ton of work right there. Clubs needs bouncers, and bouncers take off from time to time and do not leave notice. Many school children need tutors and I am a hell of a lot cheaper than a professional tutor.

So basically the world is a giant PC RPG, filled with people who exist for the sole purpose of providing non-professionals like yourself with cheap side quests. If I were stoned that would be a lot more believable, but sadly I have sworn off both pot and hooch until the latest roster of goals is completed.

farson135:
I do not know you. Maybe you took out a $10,000 loan and went bankrupt. Maybe you defaulted on a lot of payments. Maybe you have a god-awful credit score. Etc.

Why don't you explain to me why cannot get a loan, Aergia?

This kind of goes back to my point. You do not know me or my situation, but you seem to believe that you have one-size-fits-all solution for it.

You said something may happen in location 1 if we did A. I said it did not happen in location 2 when they did A therefore (barring extenuating circumstances) there is no reason A would have a significantly different effect in 1. That is a complete answer to your question (inconvenient perhaps but still an answer).

Barring extenuating circumstances. Sadly, we do have those. They're called people.

BTW when did I say sole reason? Try not to make up what I say.

Implied. Again, why don't you ask the dude who actually taught in Japan why education in Japan is so good? I mean, you have access to this dude who can tell you things. You don't have to assume. Are you too lazy to talk to someone now?

That is an example. People spend less during a recession therefore they look to cheaper ways to do things. My friend hires me to fix his AC unit instead of hiring a repair guy. He saves and I get money. If you cannot fix an AC then help some people when they are moving or any one of a billion other jobs.

I couldn't afford to hire you, dude. If my AC breaks, I learn to go without. You seem to be assuming that my case is unique and solitary. That this happens to no one but me.

One single example and you cannot figure anything else out. Wow.

Again, you list skills I don't have. I have a very specialized set of skills. I'm not mechanical. You're basically shitting on me for being born with talents different from yours.

Wow, if only there were other transportation means other than a car. Like maybe a transportation system like a car, but larger and able to fit more people. Then what if that transportation system was cheap enough that you could travel from Philadelphia to Austin for only about $200. Too bad such a thing does not exist (/sarcasm). This is not that fucking hard to figure out. If you cannot figure out a way to get $200 in this society then there really is no hope for you. There are any number of easy odd jobs you can find that would pay you that in a few days and since you are living off family you will not have to spend much to maintain yourself. Hell, a few days of grunt work would probably do you good.

Again, you're assuming that I have that kind of money. You're assuming that I would survive in a city where I don't know a living soul and have nowhere to stay.

And don't get me smart with me, kid. I bust my fucking balls as a busker and trying to start up a business. Do not tell me that I don't work for what I have.

Look, if you have no skills, are a fucking moron, and do not have use of any of your limbs then yeah, you are a useless member of society and you will never get a job as anything but a paper weight. Barring that there are jobs aplenty out there IF you look for them.

That assumes a lot. Once again, you assume that your solution is one-size-fits-all.

So you are fucked over because people do not like you. Guess what, the fact that people do not like you might be the reason you cannot find work. People here like me. I do good work and people like to talk to me. If you are an ass then sorry there is work available but you barred yourself from getting it. If they don't like you for no reason that still does not mean that jobs are unavailable it just means that you are barred from them.

No, smartass, my neighbors hate me. I'm actually getting requests for voice over work now because I made the effort to give away some stuff to friends and they would talk to people who needed what I'm offering. Surprise, surprise, it's actual businesses that want to hire me for this. Not a neighbor who needs me to change his oil.

It does not require many resources or skills to do many jobs (you have a distinct lack of imagination).

You're going to sit there and accuse an artist of not having enough imagination? It's not a lack of imagination on my part. It's a lack of understanding on your part.

Here is one of my later posts-

"For those with less mechanical aptitude, there is simple grunt work. A friend of a friend owns a bar and he needed a few extra bouncers for a night. Then of course the university always needs people to set up for some event or another. Landscapers are always in short supply (for a decent price at least). Then you have just general scrounging. Lots of trips to the junk yard. And of course kids need tutors the world over. And on."

That assumes a lot. Most of it unreliable.

Considering I have never said "everyone can be successful" obviously not.

Then stop using bullshit arguments.

YOU are simply too narrow minded to see the resources around you. You have everything you need to make a decent living without having a full time job. You just have to look for it. Problem is that too many people expect to be handed work. If you cannot find work then you are not looking hard enough.

Now let me lay a healthy dose of reality on you. I developed a very specialized skill set because I learned in college what I wanted to do with my life. As Joseph Campbell says, I'm following my bliss. Trouble was, I got out of college the same year that Commander Cuckoo Bananas cratered the economy and his Wall Street buddies made it worse shortly after that, so I had to hop to day jobs when the weather made busking impractical.

I also discovered that although Pittsburgh has a strong artistic community, a lot of business owners in traditional venues for an entertainer are not amenable to having entertainers that are not a live band. The business climate here, in other words, is very Good Ol' Boy. This meant that I wasted a lot of time pursuing common wisdom only to discover that it was neither.

Still with a vision for a business plan, I've knuckled down and tried new avenues of revenue. But I have come to accept the reality that the "power of positive thinking" is nothing more than a feel-good flavor of snake oil. One you seem to have bought, incidentally. Believing in myself and trusting on oddjobs to fund my start-up is madness. Instead, I have committed to several streams of revenue, one of which is beginning to bear fruit and am outlining a plan with my fellows to create several no-string projects that we can give away for free in order to build an audience.

This means that I need to really focus on using the skills that I have rather than learning new ones that serve only the purpose of fulfilling the odd jobs that you describe. That's a waste of time, and right now, time is the only resource that I have. Apparently, this means that I understand the difference between money and time better than you do.

Among other things I'm busking, working on securing commissions as a Farrow Memory Speaking (huge thanks to my Dad for getting me in on that), and voice work. All the while, I come online, play games, and watch movies in between all the calls I'm making and the writing I'm doing for my business. I'm busting my balls here because I know what I want to do with my life. I've fought tooth and nail for every meager resource that I have, and I'm grateful to my family for the support they've provided financially and emotionally. I find no shame in taking a hand-out when it's offered.

Of course, once the money starts coming in, I'm not going to suddenly turn to everyone else and say, "See? If you were a great speaker, or were born with a distinctive voice like mine, you could be financially independent like me, you lazy freeloader." I'm going through my starving artist period, but I accept the fact that I have to sweat it out to build an audience and make a living doing this. That means I don't have the time or inclination to learn a bunch of extemporaneous skills just to appease your myopic worldview.

Naturally, I still think it's bullshit that wages have not kept up with inflation. And that people like you have think that all local economies work exactly the same as your own. Though I have given up getting pissed off at the philistines who think all artists are a bunch of lazy moochers, because those same people still buy music and go to the movies. And I endeavor to make myself a success so that I can eventually give back. I was inspired in part by Dave Mustaine of Megadeth who converted one of his properties in San Diego into a music school where he and the band personally teach underprivileged inner city kids music. He said the greatest thing in the world would not be another gold album, but to find a kid who had the talent but not the means and give him a career in music.

You know who one of my personal heroes is? Roger Corman. Google him if you're not familiar with him. I have modeled my approach to building my business after him. So if you still want to claim I don't work hard enough or that I'm lazy or that I don't appreciate hard work... then you're just a barking dog. You don't know who I am or why I'm here, but you feel the need to bark at me because I'm not part of your pack.

farson135:

DrVornoff:
Then explain to me why I can't get them, Adam Smith.

I do not know you. Maybe you took out a $10,000 loan and went bankrupt. Maybe you defaulted on a lot of payments. Maybe you have a god-awful credit score. Etc.

Why don't you explain to me why cannot get a loan, Aergia?

You're sidestepping my point and refusing to answer the question. Also, I seriously doubt that "competition" is the sole reason that Japan is ahead of us in education.

You said something may happen in location 1 if we did A. I said it did not happen in location 2 when they did A therefore (barring extenuating circumstances) there is no reason A would have a significantly different effect in 1. That is a complete answer to your question (inconvenient perhaps but still an answer).

BTW when did I say sole reason? Try not to make up what I say.

Most of those require skills or resources that I do not possess like a car and the knowledge to fix one.

That is an example. People spend less during a recession therefore they look to cheaper ways to do things. My friend hires me to fix his AC unit instead of hiring a repair guy. He saves and I get money. If you cannot fix an AC then help some people when they are moving or any one of a billion other jobs.

How does fixing cars help a guy who doesn't know how to do that? To learn that skill would require more time and money. That's effort that I could spend busking.

One single example and you cannot figure anything else out. Wow.

... Because I don't have a car, nor could I afford to move. Jesus cross-dressing Christ! How fucking short-sighted do you have to be not to think of something so goddamn obvious? How fucking arrogant does a person have to be to completely that not everyone has the same resources at their disposal?

Wow, if only there were other transportation means other than a car. Like maybe a transportation system like a car, but larger and able to fit more people. Then what if that transportation system was cheap enough that you could travel from Philadelphia to Austin for only about $200. Too bad such a thing does not exist (/sarcasm). This is not that fucking hard to figure out. If you cannot figure out a way to get $200 in this society then there really is no hope for you. There are any number of easy odd jobs you can find that would pay you that in a few days and since you are living off family you will not have to spend much to maintain yourself. Hell, a few days of grunt work would probably do you good.

Look, if you have no skills, are a fucking moron, and do not have use of any of your limbs then yeah, you are a useless member of society and you will never get a job as anything but a paper weight. Barring that there are jobs aplenty out there IF you look for them.

Again, requiring skills or resources that I don't have and all of my neighbors hate my guts. I'm stuck in this awful fucking neighborhood living with family because I couldn't afford rent.

So you are fucked over because people do not like you. Guess what, the fact that people do not like you might be the reason you cannot find work. People here like me. I do good work and people like to talk to me. If you are an ass then sorry there is work available but you barred yourself from getting it. If they don't like you for no reason that still does not mean that jobs are unavailable it just means that you are barred from them.

It does not require many resources or skills to do many jobs (you have a distinct lack of imagination). Here is one of my later posts-

"For those with less mechanical aptitude, there is simple grunt work. A friend of a friend owns a bar and he needed a few extra bouncers for a night. Then of course the university always needs people to set up for some event or another. Landscapers are always in short supply (for a decent price at least). Then you have just general scrounging. Lots of trips to the junk yard. And of course kids need tutors the world over. And on."

Same difference. You are deliberately conflating, "Anyone can be successful," with "Everyone can be successful." Do you actually believe that?

Considering I have never said "everyone can be successful" obviously not. YOU are simply too narrow minded to see the resources around you. You have everything you need to make a decent living without having a full time job. You just have to look for it. Problem is that too many people expect to be handed work. If you cannot find work then you are not looking hard enough.

every single response you have made screams right-wing propaganda machine. all it takes is hard work and anyone can get a job and make a decent living.

its complete bullshit. most people are not in the situation you are in. how do you want the person living in the poorest of neighbourhoods doing what you do? nobody in his area is looking for someone to repair an AC or car, if the AC breaks they simply dont use it because they do not have the money to fix it.

you just like most right wingers have only see what is around you but nothing else. you cannot put yourself in the shoes of others. you think that because you did something it means everyone else can.... life does not work like that.

farson135:
Actually there are more than enough jobs. You may not be able to work in your career of choice but in hard times you do what you have to do. If you cannot find anyone in your area that needs odd jobs done then you are not looking. If there is no one in your area then perhaps you should move since you won't find much work out in the middle of nowhere.

With all due respect, you do not in fact know what my meagre patch of dirt is like. You're making uninformed and frankly ignorant comments with no experience on the matter whatsoever. I, for example, could say that Vancouver has four jobs for every man, woman, and child, but I'd not know know. I've never visited, let alone lived there. Therefore, I cannot offer valid facts or observations, due to my lack of knowledge on the area. I can talk about my area, having seen employment agencies filled to the brim, and having witnessed eighty men clambering over the same low wage job time and time again.

Now, where I live, not everyone has the money to simply relocate. Young adults living with their low-income earning parents, families who rent, and the disabled all have a hard time relocating. A significant reason for this difficulty is a lack of capital, required to keep oneself from the streets and shelters. Accommodation is not at all what I'd call inexpensive. The gamble is highly unlikely to yield positive results unless he who is relocating already has money, in which case he'd have little need to seek out work so desperately.

I know that where I live, no man can earn a living solely from odd jobs. There simply aren't enough Sandgropers who would hire an unlicensed, unqualified mechanic or tradesman when they could have a experienced Irish expatriate company man do a better job for around the same price. Or, if it's something like a heater or air conditioning, they'll often not bother to have it fixed, a lot of people, pensioners in particular, can't afford to run such appliances due to utility costs. The costs of living necessitate a proper income, from one member of the household, at the least. I'd like if it was different, I'd like a place in which casual tinkering was commonplace and a living could be made from it. As it is, though, one cannot live comfortable doing a little bit of this and a little bit of that three times a fortnight.

farson135:
Ever heard of loans? Ever heard of savings? Ever heard of investments? And that and more is possible under a free market system.

Money is necessary for both investments and savings. You can get money from a loan, true, but if you invest that, and the investment turns sour, you're in a sorry position. Even if it goes well,it may not go well enough to catch up with the interest on the loan. I'd also like to add that a free market system enables detrimental and exploitative monopolies.

farson135:

Leadfinger:
That's an odd tale you tell. Texas has the highest poverty rate in the U.S. If there were so many great jobs down there, then why is there so much poverty?

No it doesn't. Several states have far higher poverty rates than Texas- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_poverty_rate

You want to know why? Partially it has to do with the economic make-up of the state. Lots of small hold farmers.

Partially it has to do with immigration and naturalization. A person come into the state and doesn't know the language. You can't get a decent job that way. Plus they come here poor to begin with and that does not change much. Ever heard of colonias? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonia_(United_States)

Partially it has to do with education, you can declare all you want but the fact is that there are lots of people who never have and never will care about education and that will never improve anything.

Partially it has to do with hundreds of other factors. None of which has anything to do with a lack of work within the state.

Basically, the state is dragged down by very bad areas. Those areas are not poor due to lack of jobs they are poor for more reasons than I can even get to.

BTW you want to know how wide the difference is between the colonia and the rest of the state? Here you go, top 10 fastest growing citing in the US-

#1 Austin
#2 Dallas
#4 Houston
#9 San Antonio

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mlj45hfdf/americas-fastest-growing-cities/#gallerycontent

According to your figures, Texas is still right in the cellar at #46 for poverty, and Texas has the highest number of impoverished people in absolute terms.Also, Texas has slipped from 45th to last among states citizens who have a high school diploma or GED. Obviously, both education and jobs are a huge issue in Texas. Facts don't lie. I don't see how you can tout these abysmal numbers as a success of the free market system.

And yet capitalism has delivered more social mobility than any other system. It is a deeply flawed system for sure and it needs to be regulated, but it is (so far) the best we have. China, for example, has lifted more people out of poverty than at any other time in human history because it embraced capitalistic reforms.

And I'll tell you what, I like people like Farson135. They have a can-do attitude. People like that always make a bad situation better, because they always look for solutions rather than looking at obstacles.

Now for what follows I am speaking for young single people here; families are a different kettle of herring.

So, you acknowledge opportunities are slim for sure. You accept the raw hand you might have been given, yes. However, you flip them all the bird, you grow a pair of balls and you ask yourself: "Is there anything that I can do to improve myself and my situation?"

Because life is too short to be whiny wee negatrons always putting up obstacles to excuse your own complacency. Really, there is always something you can do to improve your lot.

And btw, I am talking about the modern USA, Britain and so on and not Somalia. We still have plenty of opportunities.

Sick of the crybabies making excuses.

I like the lyrics to the Henry Rollins song Change it up:

"You say your job is a pain
It`s pulling you down the drain
I think you`d rather complain
Than quit it

He knocks you to the floor
But you go back for more when you could walk out the door
He`s a loser honey, leave him

Win lose or draw
I want it all
Life`s so short
No safety net

You get what you get
What you settle for?

You say your town is too small, you live your life at the mall
You can`t have it all until you leave it behind you
And you wait for the day when luck will come home to stay
You never get your way
You go out --you make it

Win lose or draw
I want it all
Life`s so short
No safety net

You get what you get
What you settle for?"

Yeh, what have YOU settled for?

I grew up shit-poor in the Scottish ghetto and I got out, yes because I was lucky enough be born in the UK which helped subsidise my education, but also through embracing that education, through self-will and sheer hard work. I say this not to blow my own trumpet, but because I know other people like my younger self can do the same. Society provides the opportunities and, slim as they may or may not be, YOU alone have to take them and embrace them. All you have to do is fight back against the odds and believe in yourself. Success might come later rather than sooner, but it is far more likely to come if you have a can-do attitude and start making yourself more employable right now.

Of course, this doesn't necessarily make you rich or successful or land you a decent job. We are in the worst economic crisis since the 1930s. But you can improve yourself, your social mobility and take advantage of opportunities that were simply not available to people in places like the USA and the UK in the 1930s.

Now, here is Ernest Shackleton's advert in 1913 for an expedition to cross the atlantic via the North Pole:

"Men wanted for hazardous journey. Small wages, bitter cold, long months of complete darkness, constant danger, safe return doubtful. Honour and recognition in case of success."

5,000 young British men applied for that job. How many applications do you think we would get these days from a generation of wimps and crybabies? I'd bet two barrels of homebrew that you'd be hard-pressed to get 50 and that is approximate to how unmanly, decadent and wimpish we have become.

Regards

Nightspore

Nightspore:
And yet capitalism has delivered more social mobility than any other system. It is a deeply flawed system for sure and it needs to be regulated, but it is (so far) the best we have. China, for example, has lifted more people out of poverty than at any other time in human history because it embraced capitalistic reforms.

Proving that capitalism and actual LIBERTY are two entirely different things...

Nightspore:
And yet capitalism has delivered more social mobility than any other system. It is a deeply flawed system for sure and it needs to be regulated, but it is (so far) the best we have. China, for example, has lifted more people out of poverty than at any other time in human history because it embraced capitalistic reforms.

You're confusing "Capitalism has delivered social mobility" with "Social mobility increased while Capitalism was widespread".

While Capitalism might improve social mobility compared to, say, fuedalism; in the current economic paradigm Capitalism acts as an unequalising force that actually inhibits social mobilility. It is a government, usually democratically elected, that ensures the wealth is evenly distributed that increases social mobility.

Because life is too short to be whiny wee negatrons always putting up obstacles to excuse your own complacency. Really, there is always something you can do to improve your lot.

Yes there are, though they won't necessarily have any effect. However, that doesn't stop you from either highlighting problems with the current system and trying to better it for everyone.

I grew up shit-poor in the Scottish ghetto and I got out, yes because I was lucky enough be born in the UK which helped subsidise my education, but also through embracing that education, through self-will and sheer hard work. I say this not to blow my own trumpet, but because I know other people like my younger self can do the same. Society provides the opportunities and, slim as they may or may not be, YOU alone have to take them and embrace them. All you have to do is fight back against the odds and believe in yourself. Success might come later rather than sooner, but it is far more likely to come if you have a can-do attitude and start making yourself more employable right now.

Other people like your younger self can try to do exactly the same thing and fail. That is the point that everyone is making. No-one is saying that social mobility doesn't exist or that the thing to do is sit back with your thumb up your but, but if you can't see that the system as a whole is failing millions of people who are trying, you're a fool.

In fact the UK is the WORST western country when it comes to social mobility.

Now, here is Ernest Shackleton's advert in 1913 for an expedition to cross the atlantic via the North Pole:

"Men wanted for hazardous journey. Small wages, bitter cold, long months of complete darkness, constant danger, safe return doubtful. Honour and recognition in case of success."

5,000 young British men applied for that job. How many applications do you think we would get these days from a generation of wimps and crybabies? I'd bet two barrels of homebrew that you'd be hard-pressed to get 50 and that is approximate to how unmanly, decadent and wimpish we have become.

Please you're just denigrating an entire nation full of your countrymen based off nothing but your own prejudice. There is nothing more sickening than someone who's struck lucky and doesn't recognise it.

Nightspore:
And yet capitalism has delivered more social mobility than any other system.

That's a post hoc ergo propter hoc. You can't claim causation simply because one thing happened after the other.

So, you acknowledge opportunities are slim for sure. You accept the raw hand you might have been given, yes. However, you flip them all the bird, you grow a pair of balls and you ask yourself: "Is there anything that I can do to improve myself and my situation?"

If one wants to "improve oneself", one can always try being less of a smug, self-absorbed git. There's always a step one can make to be less obnoxious and therefore better.

And yes. As said before. Nobody's denying that one's own actions make a difference. Nobody's a hard determinist here. What we do take issue with, and what we will continue to take issue with is this "It worked for me, so it works for everyone, therefore everyone who's not as awesome as I am only has themselves to blame."

As for the rest, Overhead pretty much got things down so I won't repeat them.

5,000 young British men applied for that job. How many applications do you think we would get these days from a generation of wimps and crybabies? I'd bet two barrels of homebrew that you'd be hard-pressed to get 50 and that is approximate to how unmanly, decadent and wimpish we have become.

There's still a lot of room for you to "improve yourself", it would appear.

DrVornoff:

This

farson135:
[quote="Ninjamedic" post="528.378694.14816831"]I was talking of a situation wherin most (if not all)of the persons money was going out to pay bills.

Then they should get themselves out from under that before they start trying to get rich. Look, I am a college student, I have many, many side jobs and the money I earn pays for much of my tuition as well as food, rent, and utilities. Most people who cannot find work are not looking hard enough or they do not want to do dirty jobs. Far too many of my fellow college students have a sense of entitlement and cannot understand why I am willing to clean out someone's gutter despite my level of education (my answer is that I only do it to the tune of Der Freischütz :) ). If people would just fucking work they could get out much easier. Unfortunately we teach people to be helpless. Hell, I have to turn away lots of jobs, not because I do not have the expertise or the equipment to do the job, but instead because I do not have the time to do them all. If there are that many jobs available in the middle of a recession then how the fuck are so many people out of work? Or, more to your point, how can they have trouble paying bills when there is so much extra work out there that pays so much? I have almost no competition. I am not just working in Austin but also in my home town (you want work, there are lots of ranch hand and assistant farmer positions open) and where my mother lives. I take up work where ever I go and I never have had trouble finding it. .

Then you are actually quite lucky. Where I live (a small-ish town in the UK) there is nothing, the best part of our local economy is the tourism/service trade (which is only really on the go from April to September and depends heavily on the weather) or Geriatric care (which 50% of the population are effectively excluded from doing[1])

There is also a cultural thing; I'm assuming since you said you clean gutters a lot of your work is stuff like gardening, pool cleaning, etc. In the UK that just doesn't happen; if your grass needs cut you go do it, if the gutters need cleared you go up a ladder. The only time you hire someone to do that kind of thing is when you want a professional look (e.g getting a patio built) and even then general upkeep is generally just done by the owner.

So saying "I get loads of work, so why can't everyone else?" doesn't take into account how different the work environment is elsewhere. Yes there are people that don't like the idea of scrubbing toilets but when you can barely afford a decent meal you soon apply for anything going.

[1] Basically no care company will hire men as they cant care for female clients and male clients don't want another guy helping them.

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