Barrier of Entry: My main criticism of Free Market Capitalism and its effect on Social Mobility.

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Oh, to the responses above.

Not being smug. I think education and self-improvement are the best things we can do to improve our lot. Especially for the poor. I am actually on the side of the poor and the downtrodden because one thing I know is that the real poverty trap for young people these days is less based on money or income and more about education and attitude.

That so many of you cannot see this is down to something else, but everytime a thread like this comes out and I promote a more can-do attitude I am called selfish, smug, a git, a cunt, etc and so on. But no-one ever asks me concrete questions like "Do you support the things that make it possible for people to improve themselves? Things like free education to age 18? Things like heavily subsidised further education for people from low incomes?" If you had asked me those questions rather than calling me names then you may find we have more in common than you think.

I support all those socialistic and liberal British reforms that made education and social mobility more accessible than they were in say 1850 or 1930. Even with some of the recent reforms to the UK education system I still think we are incredibly privileged and have loads of opportunities.

This is the difference between me and "real" extreme laissez-faire right wingers who would dismantle all those opportunties, but too many people prefer to just unceremoniously dump me in that camp and then start name-calling.

And yeh, there is room for me to improve myself. I could be more diplomatic and less iconclastic on these forums, but so could some of you.

This is a gaming forum after all and sometimes I am saying stuff that I only half believe but go the whole way anyway to see how the shoes fit. I ain't takin myself too seriously here. In real life I am far more measured, cautious and diplomatic in my politics, but it is the curse of forums like these that they bring out the worst in us and I think, on reflection, that I will do some self-improvemnt right here and now and make this my last post on an internet forum.

Sayonara

Nightspore

Nightspore:
Oh, to the responses above.

Not being smug. I think education and self-improvement are the best things we can do to improve our lot. Especially for the poor. I am actually on the side of the poor and the downtrodden because one thing I know is that the real poverty trap for young people these days is less based on money or income and more about education and attitude.

That so many of you cannot see this is down to something else, but everytime a thread like this comes out and I promote a more can-do attitude I am called selfish, smug, a git, a cunt, etc and so on.

The problem (well, one of many) is that most of us have heard rightwingers use that kind of "Can-do Attitude" talk as an excuse to let poor people starve until they're so light that they can lift themselves by their own bootstraps, and as a result, we've developed an allergy to it.

Of course, they also tend to denigrate education.

arbane:

Nightspore:
Oh, to the responses above.

Not being smug. I think education and self-improvement are the best things we can do to improve our lot. Especially for the poor. I am actually on the side of the poor and the downtrodden because one thing I know is that the real poverty trap for young people these days is less based on money or income and more about education and attitude.

That so many of you cannot see this is down to something else, but everytime a thread like this comes out and I promote a more can-do attitude I am called selfish, smug, a git, a cunt, etc and so on.

The problem (well, one of many) is that most of us have heard rightwingers use that kind of "Can-do Attitude" talk as an excuse to let poor people starve until they're so light that they can lift themselves by their own bootstraps, and as a result, we've developed an allergy to it.

Of course, they also tend to denigrate education.

Actually, my main problems are "It worked for me, so it works for everyone", "Being better off than the next guy makes me better than the next guy", and "You're only going to get stuck if you're a crybaby, just grow a pair". All of these attitudes have been present in this thread, not all from everyone of course.

DrVornoff:
Snip

Here is my argument, there are little jobs everywhere because not everybody has the time or experience to do those jobs. Those jobs usually sit undone because people do not have the time or the money to get them done. A cheap laborer, like myself, can do it for next to nothing. Because of that people pay cheap laborers, that can do the job, to do the job. That is universal within human society.

YOU have not shown in any way shape or form that my statement is false. THERE IS NO REASON IT WOULD BE FALSE. You are complaining that you are unable to do these jobs therefor they do not exist. Both parts of that statement are completely wrong. These odd jobs that I have been talking about exist in large numbers all over the world and many of them require little to no training or experience. Prove otherwise or back the fuck off.

So basically the world is a giant PC RPG, filled with people who exist for the sole purpose of providing non-professionals like yourself with cheap side quests. If I were stoned that would be a lot more believable, but sadly I have sworn off both pot and hooch until the latest roster of goals is completed.

If you wish to think about it that way fine. I prefer to think about it as, the people with good jobs do not have time for home repair and all the other little things I know how to do so if I can save them a few bucks they will usually take me (as long as I can do the job properly).

This kind of goes back to my point. You do not know me or my situation, but you seem to believe that you have one-size-fits-all solution for it.

So, no one in your area ever needs plumbing work done and no child in your area has ever needed a tutor and your drunks are so well behaved that your clubs have never needed bouncers. You are just repeating yourself ad nauseum. If you have nothing else then stop posting.

Barring extenuating circumstances. Sadly, we do have those. They're called people.

So the Japanese are not people now? Look, if you can prove that it has a higher probability of happening in the US then do it. Otherwise I will go with the current example.

Implied.

Implied my ass.

Again, why don't you ask the dude who actually taught in Japan why education in Japan is so good? I mean, you have access to this dude who can tell you things. You don't have to assume. Are you too lazy to talk to someone now?

First of all I have talked to him before, we had a lovely discussion on computers in Japanese schools.

Second of all I have done my research on the subject. Have you?

I couldn't afford to hire you, dude. If my AC breaks, I learn to go without.

Probably has something to do with the fact that you do not have a job which has to do with the fact that you are not looking for work. Or if you are looking for work you are apparently failing miserably.

Again, you list skills I don't have. I have a very specialized set of skills. I'm not mechanical. You're basically shitting on me for being born with talents different from yours.

I listed several other fields which require only grunt work.

Again, you're assuming that I have that kind of money.

Actually I didn't. If you had actually read my full statement you would know that.

You're assuming that I would survive in a city where I don't know a living soul and have nowhere to stay.

I did, no problem. Besides Pennsylvanians tend to do pretty well in Texas. We have entire colonies of Penns all over the place who moved here for work. Hell, I have theorized that there are more Steelers fans in Texas (thanks to all the immigration) than in Pittsburg.

And don't get me smart with me, kid. I bust my fucking balls as a busker and trying to start up a business. Do not tell me that I don't work for what I have.

Actually my statement is to work with what you have. Do you know how many tools I have made myself because I was too cheap to buy new ones? AR-15s require lots of specialized tools that I am not going to pay for. So I make them (and have even sold a few of my tools).

I'm actually getting requests for voice over work now because I made the effort to give away some stuff to friends and they would talk to people who needed what I'm offering. Surprise, surprise, it's actual businesses that want to hire me for this. Not a neighbor who needs me to change his oil.

Congratulations, apparently there is work out there you just had to look for it. I wonder who has been saying that?

You're going to sit there and accuse an artist of not having enough imagination? It's not a lack of imagination on my part. It's a lack of understanding on your part.

Actually if you cannot figure out the fact that there are jobs out there for people without mechanical knowhow then you have no imagination or understanding.

That assumes a lot. Most of it unreliable.

Wow, so there are no kids in your area that need tutors? No clubs at all? If you live in the Pitt I have to say you are talking out of your ass.

Then stop using bullshit arguments.

So you just make up an argument for me and accuse me of making bullshit arguments. I think you are about done.

I developed a very specialized skill set because I learned in college what I wanted to do with my life.

Congratulations, so did I. Admittedly, I am not as specialized as one of my favorite professors who specializes in "sexuality in the ancient Mediterranean" but I am still a specialist. However, why don't you use the brain you have and expand your skillset? There are more than enough jobs out there to get on-the-job training.

Still with a vision for a business plan, I've knuckled down and tried new avenues of revenue. But I have come to accept the reality that the "power of positive thinking" is nothing more than a feel-good flavor of snake oil. One you seem to have bought, incidentally. Believing in myself and trusting on oddjobs to fund my start-up is madness. Instead, I have committed to several streams of revenue, one of which is beginning to bear fruit and am outlining a plan with my fellows to create several no-string projects that we can give away for free in order to build an audience.

This means that I need to really focus on using the skills that I have rather than learning new ones that serve only the purpose of fulfilling the odd jobs that you describe. That's a waste of time, and right now, time is the only resource that I have. Apparently, this means that I understand the difference between money and time better than you do.

I am going to give you some words of wisdom that I have always lived by in my work. It is alright to pursue a dream as long as you keep one foot in the realm of reality. A large job is simply the completion of many smaller simpler tasks. You are only as useful as what you can accomplish.

The fact is that, as a historian, I am pursuing a career that is outside the bounds of "work" but even with that I have kept my foot in the realm of reality and have maintained the skills I learned as a child. You either never had skills, or you let your skills atrophy. Look, the work exists, if you cannot do it due to your own shortcoming that is not my fault. That is your fault. It does not take a skillset to carry a box but apparently you are unwilling to do it. Fine, I do not give a shit if you let your life waste away. The fact that you refuse to work does not change the fact that the work exists.

BTW could you balance my schedule? For reference, I am a doctoral student, a TA, a competitive marksman (small bore, 3-gun, and 1,000 yard), and an odd jobs man. Plus, as an Eagle Scout, it is my duty to do a good turn every day and although I do not always have an opportunity to do it I make up for it with my service projects (usually on the weekends). I think I have a firm grasp on the nature of time and how best to utilize it. If I didn't I would not be doing nearly as well as I am.

I'm busting my balls here because I know what I want to do with my life. I've fought tooth and nail for every meager resource that I have

I would say good for you but you have failed to keep one foot inside the bounds of reality.

That means I don't have the time or inclination to learn a bunch of extemporaneous skills just to appease your myopic worldview.

Carrying boxes is a skill? You must have lived one hell of a sheltered life.

And that people like you have think that all local economies work exactly the same as your own.

Sorry, I didn't know that the Pitt had invented cars that do not need maintenance. Or boxes that carry themselves (physics be damned).

reonhato:
every single response you have made screams right-wing propaganda machine. all it takes is hard work and anyone can get a job and make a decent living.

Actually I never said that. I said that there is work out there if you look for it.

how do you want the person living in the poorest of neighbourhoods doing what you do? nobody in his area is looking for someone to repair an AC or car, if the AC breaks they simply dont use it because they do not have the money to fix it.

They do not have the money to hire a professional repair man. Me on the other hand.....

BTW you do realize that I am talking about COLLEGE STUDENTS, right. I think this cartoon sums it up-

you cannot put yourself in the shoes of others. you think that because you did something it means everyone else can.... life does not work like that.

So no one in your area has ever needed plumbing work done. Wow.

Reginald:
With all due respect, you do not in fact know what my meagre patch of dirt is like. You're making uninformed and frankly ignorant comments with no experience on the matter whatsoever. I, for example, could say that Vancouver has four jobs for every man, woman, and child, but I'd not know know. I've never visited, let alone lived there. Therefore, I cannot offer valid facts or observations, due to my lack of knowledge on the area. I can talk about my area, having seen employment agencies filled to the brim, and having witnessed eighty men clambering over the same low wage job time and time again.

Once again you are mistaking full time jobs that you take for a career and odd jobs you take to survive. They are all jobs, just different types.

Now, where I live, not everyone has the money to simply relocate. Young adults living with their low-income earning parents, families who rent, and the disabled all have a hard time relocating. A significant reason for this difficulty is a lack of capital, required to keep oneself from the streets and shelters. Accommodation is not at all what I'd call inexpensive. The gamble is highly unlikely to yield positive results unless he who is relocating already has money, in which case he'd have little need to seek out work so desperately.

Going to an area with cheaper housing and work is better than sticking around in a bad area.

I know that where I live, no man can earn a living solely from odd jobs. There simply aren't enough Sandgropers who would hire an unlicensed, unqualified mechanic or tradesman when they could have a experienced Irish expatriate company man do a better job for around the same price. Or, if it's something like a heater or air conditioning, they'll often not bother to have it fixed, a lot of people, pensioners in particular, can't afford to run such appliances due to utility costs. The costs of living necessitate a proper income, from one member of the household, at the least. I'd like if it was different, I'd like a place in which casual tinkering was commonplace and a living could be made from it. As it is, though, one cannot live comfortable doing a little bit of this and a little bit of that three times a fortnight.

You are not looking hard enough. There are plenty of people here who will not hire me but (when I started out) I just kept asking around and eventually my name started getting around. Honestly, unless you actually try to do what I do you will not understand. There are jobs a plenty. A friend of a friend of a friend (literally) asked me to help their band repair some old equipment. And some of these relationships get even more convoluted.

If you have never found a person who needs their roof repaired and is willing to pay to get it done then you just are not looking.

Money is necessary for both investments and savings.

Investments from other people. Savings was my way of saying when you have money put a little away and eventually it will add up.

You can get money from a loan, true, but if you invest that, and the investment turns sour, you're in a sorry position. Even if it goes well,it may not go well enough to catch up with the interest on the loan.

There is always a risk but there is also potential for great reward.

I'd also like to add that a free market system enables detrimental and exploitative monopolies.

Actually no it doesn't. A free market requires that there be no monopoly. Read the actual economic definition.

However, the government enables monopolies all the time.

Leadfinger:

According to your figures, Texas is still right in the cellar at #46 for poverty, and Texas has the highest number of impoverished people in absolute terms.Also, Texas has slipped from 45th to last among states citizens who have a high school diploma or GED. Obviously, both education and jobs are a huge issue in Texas. Facts don't lie. I don't see how you can tout these abysmal numbers as a success of the free market system.

I didn't. I said that Texas seems bad because of bad areas. Most of the major cities in Texas are growing faster than any other cities in the country and yet there is also poverty. Why? Extra socio-economic factors including a large non-naturalized immigrant population. You do realize that over 50% of the impoverished people in Texas are Hispanic right? Ever think why?

Karma168:
Then you are actually quite lucky. Where I live (a small-ish town in the UK) there is nothing, the best part of our local economy is the tourism/service trade (which is only really on the go from April to September and depends heavily on the weather) or Geriatric care (which 50% of the population are effectively excluded from doing.

Then there is lots of repair and maintenance work that can be done in the off season. I live near that kind of town (Fredericksburg) but they still have perpetual work.

There is also a cultural thing; I'm assuming since you said you clean gutters a lot of your work is stuff like gardening, pool cleaning, etc. In the UK that just doesn't happen; if your grass needs cut you go do it, if the gutters need cleared you go up a ladder. The only time you hire someone to do that kind of thing is when you want a professional look (e.g getting a patio built) and even then general upkeep is generally just done by the owner.

Actually I work in a variety of fields. I do everything from baling hay, to sporterizing firearms, to tutoring kids. I guarantee there are plenty of people in your area that need help from time to time with odd jobs.

So saying "I get loads of work, so why can't everyone else?" doesn't take into account how different the work environment is elsewhere. Yes there are people that don't like the idea of scrubbing toilets but when you can barely afford a decent meal you soon apply for anything going.

Apparently not considering DrVornoff has stated that those jobs exist but they require training (lifting boxes requires training?) and he is not willing to learn how to do the job.

I find work because I look for it in alternate ways and I am willing to learn how to do different things and I am willing to do crappy jobs. Cleaning toilets is nothing compared to fixing a fence line in July.

Yes, a "free market" does require no monopolies to be free. But that's not exactly the viewpoint you want to have if you're a successful business looking to expand, now is it? I mean, isn't it all about seizing the opportunity, why would you want to stop so that the other catch up when you're ahead if you can just snowball your way to market dominance?

Why should you be disallowed from creating a monopoly if you're in a position to do so? And why would you on the other hand blame the governmnet for not preventing someone else from creating one if you lost that particular race? Isn't it all about "Winner takes it all"?

As Agema (I think) said in another thread where we discussed this exact thing "'Free market' and 'free business' are not the same thing".

Vegosiux:
Yes, a "free market" does require no monopolies to be free. But that's not exactly the viewpoint you want to have if you're a successful business looking to expand, now is it? I mean, isn't it all about seizing the opportunity, why would you want to stop so that the other catch up when you're ahead if you can just snowball your way to market dominance?

Actually I am blaming the government for CREATING monopolies for their own reasons. In other words I am speaking against the government fucking with the market.

As for why it should be prevented, it shouldn't be. However in a true free market system a monopoly is impossible to form or at least maintain. I have argued before that corporations are not people and they should die with their creator. There are lots and lots of different arguments out there that would help prevent the rise of a monopoly.

However, that was not my point. I just wanted to remind people that the economic definition is different from what they view.

Nightspore:
Oh, to the responses above.

Not being smug. I think education and self-improvement are the best things we can do to improve our lot. Especially for the poor. I am actually on the side of the poor and the downtrodden because one thing I know is that the real poverty trap for young people these days is less based on money or income and more about education and attitude.

Which you are incorrect about. There is a massive correlation in the UK between the wealth of your family when you are born and the wealth you will achieve as an adult. This isn't something that is replicated in the more egalitarian societies, but is special to our own socio-economic conditions. This graph from D'Addio (2007) quoted in the latest OECD paper on social mobility should sum it up: http://imgur.com/xgSGE

There is also too much convincing research to showings links between parental wealth and educational achievement for you to claim that as something that people should just do.

That so many of you cannot see this is down to something else, but everytime a thread like this comes out and I promote a more can-do attitude I am called selfish, smug, a git, a cunt, etc and so on. But no-one ever asks me concrete questions like "Do you support the things that make it possible for people to improve themselves? Things like free education to age 18? Things like heavily subsidised further education for people from low incomes?" If you had asked me those questions rather than calling me names then you may find we have more in common than you think.

Speaking for myself, your problem is that you seem completely unable to fathom why what you are saying is a load of bollocks. You constantly reiterate your mantra of "If people try harder, they can succeed more".

This misses three fairly key points.

- People already try hard. Your assumption that they don't is insulting. If I remember rightly you try and back it up with prejudice and a few anecdotal stories, which you can basically bugger right off with as far as I'm concerned. Maybe if YOU tried harder and concentrated on your education more you'd have a better understanding of the research that has been done into this area.

- As mentioned in my first point, socio-economic (As well as gender and race) factors matter a big deal. You can apply to an extra twenty jobs a week, but so can all the other people who have masses of advantages over you in every other way. These are things anyone can benefit from, but you can't suddenly manifest a public school education where you were tutored in small rooms where the teachers had plenty of time to deal one-on-one with their pupils. You can't have a parent sprout money out of their arse to pay for an internship for you. Things like that you're either born with or you aren't.

- This only increases the personal chances of those that manage to advantage themselves through extra effort or wherever. The old "get on your bike" phrase about cycling to places really far away in search of jobs? Say someone cycles down the road to all the various different towns and finally manages to get a job fifty miles away in Weston-Super-Mare that they wouldn't have already got. that's not an extra job that would otherwise have gone wanting, it just means the applicant they beat out who would otherwise have got the job is now unemployed instead. It does nothing to decrease the overall level of unemployment. Your big idea solves absolutely nothing.

farson135:
Once again you are mistaking full time jobs that you take for a career and odd jobs you take to survive. They are all jobs, just different types.

You cannot survive on odd jobs in Perth. You cannot. This is not up for debate.

Going to an area with cheaper housing and work is better than sticking around in a bad area.

The entirety of Perth is essentially the similar in terms of employment prospects and housing prices. Housing prices here are actually really high.

You are not looking hard enough. There are plenty of people here who will not hire me but (when I started out) I just kept asking around and eventually my name started getting around. Honestly, unless you actually try to do what I do you will not understand. There are jobs a plenty. A friend of a friend of a friend (literally) asked me to help their band repair some old equipment. And some of these relationships get even more convoluted.

If you have never found a person who needs their roof repaired and is willing to pay to get it done then you just are not looking.

This is on the culture of Perth, which you know nothing about.

Actually no [the free market] doesn't [sallow monopolies to form]. A free market requires that there be no monopoly. Read the actual economic definition.

A free market system will eventually lose it's freedom, by virtue of being free. That's what I'm talking about.

However, the government enables monopolies all the time.

Now, this might be news to you, but the world isn't ruled by the US government.

Reginald:

farson135:
Once again you are mistaking full time jobs that you take for a career and odd jobs you take to survive. They are all jobs, just different types.

You cannot survive on odd jobs in Perth. You cannot. This is not up for debate.

Probably best not to argue with that guy. His grand solution for unemployment and the broken social ladder is taking low underpaid odd jobs. LOL the american dream.

For his sake, I hope he's trolling. Atleast the 1% are laughing at him.

veloper:

Reginald:

farson135:
Once again you are mistaking full time jobs that you take for a career and odd jobs you take to survive. They are all jobs, just different types.

You cannot survive on odd jobs in Perth. You cannot. This is not up for debate.

Probably best not to argue with that guy. His grand solution for unemployment and the broken social ladder is taking low underpaid odd jobs... For his sake, I hope he's trolling.

Well, he is ignorant and obnoxious to an unrealistic extent, so trolling is a possibility.

veloper:
LOL the american dream.

A very wise man once said it's called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.

Reginald:
You cannot survive on odd jobs in Perth. You cannot. This is not up for debate.

Horseshit. That is a big ass city. Are you telling me that you cannot find repair work in a city larger than the one I am in now? My city is growing because of the IT and entertainment industries and I can still find people who need roofs repaired, cars maintained, children educated and on.

The entirety of Perth is essentially the similar in terms of employment prospects and housing prices. Housing prices here are actually really high.

And that is supposed to disprove my statement how?

This is on the culture of Perth, which you know nothing about.

Apparently neither do you. Prove otherwise or stop.

A free market system will eventually lose it's freedom, by virtue of being free. That's what I'm talking about.

By necessity? I would love to see you prove that.

Now, this might be news to you, but the world isn't ruled by the US government.

So the US government is the only one who enables monopolies? I wonder how many of the people on this forum are using electricity from the one and only company allowed to sell electricity in their particular area.

Reginald:
Well, he is ignorant and obnoxious to an unrealistic extent, so trolling is a possibility.

Ignorant and obnoxious coming from the person who believes that my family being from the country is a source of humor.

A city boy with probably no job experience is trying to tell me that kids do not need tutors where he is from. That cars do not need to be repaired. That holes do not need to be dug. And boxes are capable of moving themselves without human intervention.

If you have nothing of consequence to say then go away.

veloper:
Probably best not to argue with that guy. His grand solution for unemployment and the broken social ladder is taking low underpaid odd jobs.

So the fact that I called these jobs facts of survival did not penetrate?

BTW taking some extra work to make extra money is a smart move and it will help you move up the ladder. Unlike some people on this forum I have many marketable skills in addition to my overall specialty. You might take notice before you fuck yourself over like the other guy.

For his sake, I hope he's trolling. Atleast the 1% are laughing at him.

Actually I am laughing at you. When I retire I will have enough to settle down and I can end my life content that I did what I needed to do. You on the other hand seem content to laugh at people who actually try and build sub-specialties and skills. And people wonder why the youth can't do anything with their lives.

BTW you do realize that the guy you are supporting made fun of me because my family is made up of farmers and ranchers, right? If you want to make fun of the "arrogance of the 1%" he is a good place to start.

Even a "big ass city" only has a limited amount of roofs and plumbing that need fixing. And some such cities have people who prefer to just do the simple maintenance and repair themselves. Sure a handful of people may get by with taking the odd job for those who can't or won't DIY, but what about the rest? We're talking about "Shitloads of people not being able to find a job" here, not "Person X, Y and Z not finding a job".

"Get a job" doesn't solve the problem in the current situation, it merely passes it on to someone else. That's what people are on about here. Why is it so hard to comprehend? If I (you, Little Timmy...) get a job or start working these "odd little jobs", okay, good for me, you or Little Timmy. But we're not solving the problem of unemployment that way, merely closing the opportunities for someone else who would have filled the niche if I, you or Little Timmy hadn't done so.

The scale of the problem isn't on the individual level here. Solving your problem of unemployment as an individual, yeah, it solves the problem for you, but it doesn't make the problem any different on the larger scale. You can't solve this problem on the individual level. More job openings are necessary, that's glaringly obvious.

It's a bit like rushing to an "everything must go" sale; sure, you will get your thing if you get there early, but in the end, exactly the same number of people will have the thing, and exactly the same number of people won't have the thing, regardless of which group you're in.

Vegosiux:
Snip

You know, if people would actually read what I say it would save us all a lot of needless posts.

Even a "big ass city" only has a limited amount of roofs and plumbing that need fixing.

Yeah, but not that limited.

And some such cities have people who prefer to just do the simple maintenance and repair themselves. Sure a handful of people may get by with taking the odd job for those who can't or won't DIY, but what about the rest? We're talking about "Shitloads of people not being able to find a job" here, not "Person X, Y and Z not finding a job".

And there are other jobs. Jesus do I have to provide a 1,000 page list of every fucking job an entire city of people needs done but doesn't have the time/money/ability/etc to do themselves before y'all start understanding the scale?

"Get a job" doesn't solve the problem in the current situation, it merely passes it on to someone else. That's what people are on about here. Why is it so hard to comprehend? If I (you, Little Timmy...) get a job or start working these "odd little jobs", okay, good for me, you or Little Timmy. But we're not solving the problem of unemployment that way, merely closing the opportunities for someone else who would have filled the niche if I, you or Little Timmy hadn't done so.

So? These jobs are not that limited, especially in a city of almost 2 million people.

The scale of the problem isn't on the individual level here. Solving your problem of unemployment as an individual, yeah, it solves the problem for you, but it doesn't make the problem any different on the larger scale. You can't solve this problem on the individual level. More job openings are necessary, that's glaringly obvious.

So? Have you even been following my posts? I did not say that this is a solution to any great overriding problem. I said that there is work out there if you are willing to do shitty jobs and if you look for it. That is all. There are crappy jobs everywhere that you can do but people do not look for them. I never talked about a solution to unemployment I simply said that there are jobs out there that you can take in the name of survival (or in the name of getting a little extra cash) and get by alright. THAT IS IT. For the love of Christ can y'all just read what I say for ONCE?

Lets say someone lives in an area with more job seeks than jobs. Oh, damn, well, looks like unemployment is pretty much a given for that someone. I guess, under certain circumstances, it might be literally impossible for someone to have a job that doesn't involve door-to-door amateur dentistry or some other rediculous crap that isn't actually in demand.

farson135:

Reginald:
You cannot survive on odd jobs in Perth. You cannot. This is not up for debate.

Horseshit. That is a big ass city. Are you telling me that you cannot find repair work in a city larger than the one I am in now? My city is growing because of the IT and entertainment industries and I can still find people who need roofs repaired, cars maintained, children educated and on.

A few odd jobs a month won't pay enough to cover things electricity and food. You will literally haemorrhage money if you try to live that way here. Now, keep in mind, Perth is geographically divided, so you can only realistically do work in one half, otherwise you'll be spending more money than you earn just to get to your odd job. And, as I've said, the culture of Perth isn't big on hiring unqualified, uncredited strangers to do things like work on your vehicle, so if you do get the odd jobs, they'll be few and far between.

The entirety of Perth is essentially the similar in terms of employment prospects and housing prices. Housing prices here are actually really high.

And that is supposed to disprove my statement how?

By stating that moving isn't a simple or feasible measure. Moving would probably just lose a Perthling money, and wouldn't improve their employment prospects. Next you'll be telling me to invest in dirt or take out a loan and buy a hot air balloon. Gina Rinehart owns %90 the hot air in West Australia, I just can't compete with her. Especially since she spouts for free.

This is on the culture of Perth, which you know nothing about.

Apparently neither do you. Prove otherwise or stop.

Now this is just stupid. I've lived in Perth my entire life, I think I'd know what it's like by now. I go out and look at things, and breath the shitty Perth air, and listen to people making jokes about the regions people are from. I've gone to the clubs, and had the bouncers try to hit on me. I've drunk the blood of Perth, and paid the blood tax, in blood. You've never stepped foot in Perth, you can't know what it's like to live here. It is a strange Kafkaesque world, where men battle molemen over shitty beer and football rivalries.

A free market system will eventually lose it's freedom, by virtue of being free. That's what I'm talking about.

By necessity? I would love to see you prove that.

Well, let's say we've got no regulation whatsoever of the market. Say I've got a huge macguffin deposit, and it really takes off takes off, and I buy out the all the other macguffin mining companies. Oh, shit, don't I have the monopoly on macguffins now? Well, paint me green and call me a cabbage. Those macguffin upstarts? Well, I could easily buy them out, or undercut them until they no longer exist, or just poison them with propaganda. You see, this strictly free market stopped the government from doing anything, so now I control the flow of macguffins. He who controls the macguffin, controls the universe. Since I control the universe, the market is no longer free.

Now, this might be news to you, but the world isn't ruled by the US government.

So the US government is the only one who enables monopolies? I wonder how many of the people on this forum are using electricity from the one and only company allowed to sell electricity in their particular area.[/quote]

Given the nature of governments, a regulated monopoly is a better deal for consumers than a monopoly with private interests. Believe it or not, governments don't exist to screw over citizens, and, unlike corporations, they're not based solely on profit.

A city boy with probably no job experience is trying to tell me that kids do not need tutors where he is from. That cars do not need to be repaired. That holes do not need to be dug. And boxes are capable of moving themselves without human intervention.

The tutoring gigs go to the unemployed or employed teachers, the cars are repaired by professional mechanics, the holes are dug by apprentices, and the boxes are moved by full-time storepersons. And you're assuming that everyone knows how to teach, or work on a car, or is able bodied and able to do manual labour. Say I've got a heart disorder, and if beats at over a certain speed it'll blow up like the opposite of that one film, and that means I can't dig. Say I've got a mental disorder that makes me hate children and everyone who knows less than me so much it sends me into a barbarian rage? What if I don't know about cars and don't have time to learn? To I die, eat a child, and screw up some guy's car?

If you have nothing of consequence to say then go away.

None of your arguments are of consequence. Mostly because none of them are informed and few of them are even sensible.

A city boy with probably no job experience...

For your information, I do have work experience. I'm working right now, caring for my mentally and physically disabled grandmother for a number of years. For a long time, my grandmother needed my help badly enough that I couldn't take any work if I wanted to. Looking after my grandmother is harder than moving the frame of a house, organising a decent sized library in a day, and setting up things like lights and rigging for the events held by the Australian Football League, all of which I've done. Admittedly, I had help with that last one, but still.

And city boy is a bit of an odd insult, man. The 'boy' part is disrespectful as hell, but the 'city' part isn't bad at all. 'Hey, city boy, why don't you go live in an area with access to things like impressive libraries and art galleries! Dumb city slickers, living in an area where the sheriff doesn't get whipped to death by bandits named Wild Red Dick and Punxsutawney Phill.' Now you might say that Wild Red Dick hasn't whipped for decades, because Lee Van Cleef shot him, and Punxsutawney Phill lost both his arms to the clap, but I guarantee you, some whipping is going on somewhere. It's probably happening in Monument Valley right now. It's probably not going on in Moscow, where the government regulates whipping.

farson135:

Reginald:
This is on the culture of Perth, which you know nothing about.

Apparently neither do you. Prove otherwise or stop.

It takes a real "special" kind of person to insist that someone doesn't know anything about the place they live. You should try being even MORE smug next time.

Reginald:
Snip

You know, I just talked to a friend of mine and I asked him how hard it was for him to find a day laborer job in Philly, when he was out of work. Do you know what he said? As hard as it is for you to find one in Austin. You say that none of these jobs exist but I know you are wrong. They exist everywhere. You know why? Because human beings and their cultures are not that fucking different. You want to argue that a store has never been shorthanded and needed an extra laborer for a day. You want to argue that no one has ever started moving, hurt their back, and asked a neighbor to help them move. You want to argue that no one in your area would ever ask someone mechanically inclined to take a look at their car before they waste money taking it to a mechanic who will charge them $50 to tell them it is a bad spark plug. You want to argue that no one but a professional has ever painted a house in your city. All those things and more are jobs that I am talking about and I know damn well they happen in your city.

You have yet to prove that your fantasy world exists. Right now, I think you are arguing just to be argumentative. I know you are wrong and I know you cannot prove otherwise. So just stop.

A few odd jobs a month won't pay enough to cover things electricity and food. You will literally haemorrhage money if you try to live that way here. Now, keep in mind, Perth is geographically divided, so you can only realistically do work in one half, otherwise you'll be spending more money than you earn just to get to your odd job.

Considering that I pay for rent, food, utilities, some of my tuition, AND have a little extra for yourself you are talking out of your ass.

And, as I've said, the culture of Perth isn't big on hiring unqualified, uncredited strangers to do things like work on your vehicle, so if you do get the odd jobs, they'll be few and far between.

So what about the 20 other jobs I have mentioned on this very topic?

By stating that moving isn't a simple or feasible measure. Moving would probably just lose a Perthling money, and wouldn't improve their employment prospects.

Wow, so Perth is an island and it is impossible to leave? There are jobs a plenty in my home town. Obviously unfilled jobs exist. You just do not want to admit it.

Now this is just stupid. I've lived in Perth my entire life, I think I'd know what it's like by now. I go out and look at things, and breath the shitty Perth air, and listen to people making jokes about the regions people are from. I've gone to the clubs, and had the bouncers try to hit on me. I've drunk the blood of Perth, and paid the blood tax, in blood. You've never stepped foot in Perth, you can't know what it's like to live here. It is a strange Kafkaesque world, where men battle molemen over shitty beer and football rivalries.

First of all how do you know I have never been to Perth? I have been all over the world these past few years doing research as a part of my studies. Hell, for all you know I could be a native Aussie going to UT. I am not but you know absolutely nothing about me.

Anyway, you are telling me that it cannot happen. You are telling me that the people of Perth do not need tutors, laborers, and on. You have yet to prove that this magical fantasy world actually exists. WHAT ECONOMY IN HISTORY HAS EVER FUNCTIONED WITHOUT DAY LABORERS? NONE. It has never happened in the history of man and you have yet to prove otherwise.

Well, let's say we've got no regulation whatsoever of the market. Say I've got a huge macguffin deposit, and it really takes off takes off, and I buy out the all the other macguffin mining companies. Oh, shit, don't I have the monopoly on macguffins now? Well, paint me green and call me a cabbage. Those macguffin upstarts? Well, I could easily buy them out, or undercut them until they no longer exist, or just poison them with propaganda. You see, this strictly free market stopped the government from doing anything, so now I control the flow of macguffins. He who controls the macguffin, controls the universe. Since I control the universe, the market is no longer free.

As an up and coming gunsmith I have already beat out the established market in my area and established my own market (from my apartment no less). Your example is theoretical. I have already shown how it is false and it only took me 3 years.

Given the nature of governments, a regulated monopoly is a better deal for consumers than a monopoly with private interests.

So you are backing off your implication that I am wrong. Perhaps an apology is in order.

Government does have its own interests. PEOPLE are in government and people have interests. Why do you think the US intelligence system is so fucked up? It is because every group is competing with everybody else.

The tutoring gigs go to the unemployed or employed teachers

And the doctoral students and the experts in the field. I highly doubt that a parent would turn down a doctoral student in mathematics to teach their child algebra, especially if the person seems trustworthy and the price is much lower.

the cars are repaired by professional mechanics

So who does the maintenance? It is irrational to waste that much money for general maintenance.

BTW is the entire city so rich that they can afford to send the car to a mechanic every time a fan belt goes out?

the holes are dug by apprentices

When you can find them. Can you always find them?

the boxes are moved by full-time storepersons

Because of course, stores are the only ones that move boxes and of course, employees in stores never leave the boss empty handed and in need of day laborers.

And you're assuming that everyone knows how to teach, or work on a car, or is able bodied and able to do manual labour. Say I've got a heart disorder, and if beats at over a certain speed it'll blow up like the opposite of that one film, and that means I can't dig. Say I've got a mental disorder that makes me hate children and everyone who knows less than me so much it sends me into a barbarian rage? What if I don't know about cars and don't have time to learn? To I die, eat a child, and screw up some guy's car?

Really? That your best argument? The work exists but I am too incompetent or unable to do it?

I assume nothing. I said that the jobs exist. Whether or not YOU have the capability to do it is irrelevant.

None of your arguments are of consequence. Mostly because none of them are informed and few of them are even sensible.

Are you sure you are not talking about yourself?

Tyler Perry:
It takes a real "special" kind of person to insist that someone doesn't know anything about the place they live. You should try being even MORE smug next time.

So according to you, a geologist from Austin knows less about the bedrock around Pittsburg than everyone who lives there by virtue of the fact that they live there.

Also, since I have never been to New Mexico how can I assume that the sky is actually blue? If a person from there says the sky is green then I guess I will just have to believe that New Mexico is different from every other area I have been to on this planet.

You should try and think before you post next time.

farson135:

Tyler Perry:
It takes a real "special" kind of person to insist that someone doesn't know anything about the place they live. You should try being even MORE smug next time.

So according to you, a geologist from Austin knows less about the bedrock around Pittsburg than everyone who lives there by virtue of the fact that they live there.

Also, since I have never been to New Mexico how can I assume that the sky is actually blue? If a person from there says the sky is green then I guess I will just have to believe that New Mexico is different from every other area I have been to on this planet.

You should try and think before you post next time.

You insisted that he knows nothing about the culture of Perth, a place he lives. This is not a scientific analysis, genius, like the composition of bedrock. You'd probably think it crazy for me, a person from New York, to insist he knows more about the culture of Texas than you, a native of Texas, amirite? So why are you different? Are you that much smarter than everybody else? Do you drink a magic Perth Knowledge Elixir that makes you more knowledgeable about that city halfway around the world than those who walk its streets and breathe its air?

The Militantly Enforced Niceness Policy of the Escapist prevents me from elaborating further.

I just occurred to me that the old 'teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime' saying is, in fact, WRONG.

"Teach a man to fish AND GIVE HIM A FISHING POLE, and you feed him for a lifetime", possibly.

arbane:
I just occurred to me that the old 'teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime' saying is, in fact, WRONG.

"Teach a man to fish AND GIVE HIM A FISHING POLE, and you feed him for a lifetime", possibly.

And somewhere he can fish...

If you teach me how to fish in the desert you can go and fuck yourself.

farson135:

Reginald:
You are about to witness the strength of street knowledge.

You know, I just talked to a friend of mine and I asked him how hard it was for him to find a day laborer job in Philly, when he was out of work. Do you know what he said? As hard as it is for you to find one in Austin. You say that none of these jobs exist but I know you are wrong. They exist everywhere. You know why? Because human beings and their cultures are not that fucking different. You want to argue that a store has never been shorthanded and needed an extra laborer for a day. You want to argue that no one has ever started moving, hurt their back, and asked a neighbor to help them move. You want to argue that no one in your area would ever ask someone mechanically inclined to take a look at their car before they waste money taking it to a mechanic who will charge them $50 to tell them it is a bad spark plug. You want to argue that no one but a professional has ever painted a house in your city. All those things and more are jobs that I am talking about and I know damn well they happen in your city.

I'm not actually making any of those arguments. You're making them. It doesn't matter, anyway, since most people do things like painting their houses and fixing their roofs themselves. Those things aren't that hard to do. And you don't want a stranger fucking up the job and running off with your money. Friends and neighbours generally don't charge each other to help move things over here, especially if the one they're helping is injured. We call it being a decent neighbour/friend, and it's rather popular. Again, you can't possibly know that any of your arguments are sound, since you know nothing of Perth. I could say Japan has big green pipes sticking out of the ground, and flying turtles terrorise honest, hard working plumbers over there, but I wouldn't know.

You have yet to prove that your fantasy world exists. Right now, I think you are arguing just to be argumentative. I know you are wrong and I know you cannot prove otherwise. So just stop.

You've yet to prove that you can survive in Perth by only doing odd jobs. You've yet to prove the existence of your fantasy world, by the way. General consensus seems to be it exists in your acid flashbacks.

A few odd jobs a month won't pay enough to cover things electricity and food. You will literally haemorrhage money if you try to live that way here. Now, keep in mind, Perth is geographically divided, so you can only realistically do work in one half, otherwise you'll be spending more money than you earn just to get to your odd job.

Considering that I pay for rent, food, utilities, some of my tuition, AND have a little extra for yourself you are talking out of your ass.[/quote]

No, I'm actually talking out of my Perth, where my comments are fully applicable.

And, as I've said, the culture of Perth isn't big on hiring unqualified, uncredited strangers to do things like work on your vehicle, so if you do get the odd jobs, they'll be few and far between.

So what about the 20 other jobs I have mentioned on this very topic?

What, like junkyard scrounger?

By stating that moving isn't a simple or feasible measure. Moving would probably just lose a Perthling money, and wouldn't improve their employment prospects.

Wow, so Perth is an island and it is impossible to leave? There are jobs a plenty in my home town. Obviously unfilled jobs exist. You just do not want to admit it.

As I've already stated, leaving isn't all that feasible. Forgetting about a valid rebuttal doesn't make you right, it makes you forgetful. Also, Perth isn't your home town. I don't know why you'd even think to bring your home town up when we're not talking about it.

Well, let's say we've got no regulation whatsoever of the market. Say I've got a huge macguffin deposit, and it really takes off takes off, and I buy out the all the other macguffin mining companies. Oh, shit, don't I have the monopoly on macguffins now? Well, paint me green and call me a cabbage. Those macguffin upstarts? Well, I could easily buy them out, or undercut them until they no longer exist, or just poison them with propaganda. You see, this strictly free market stopped the government from doing anything, so now I control the flow of macguffins. He who controls the macguffin, controls the universe. Since I control the universe, the market is no longer free.

As an up and coming gunsmith I have already beat out the established market in my area and established my own market (from my apartment no less). Your example is theoretical. I have already shown how it is false and it only took me 3 years.[/quote]

Your example is one example. One. That's all. And it's a small scale example, at that.

Given the nature of governments, a regulated monopoly is a better deal for consumers than a monopoly with private interests.

So you are backing off your implication that I am wrong. Perhaps an apology is in order.

Government does have its own interests. PEOPLE are in government and people have interests. Why do you think the US intelligence system is so fucked up? It is because every group is competing with everybody else.[/quote]

I can't comment on the US government, I've not dealt with it.

the cars are repaired by professional mechanics

So who does the maintenance? It is irrational to waste that much money for general maintenance.

BTW is the entire city so rich that they can afford to send the car to a mechanic every time a fan belt goes out?

Insurance is fairly common here. That, and paying an unaccredited stranger to tinker with something as valuable is just asking for trouble, since they can cause more problems, then refuse to take responsibility.

the holes are dug by apprentices

When you can find them. Can you always find them?

Yes, actually. There is a massive supply of willing apprentices, and not that many holes to be dug.

the boxes are moved by full-time storepersons

Because of course, stores are the only ones that move boxes and of course, employees in stores never leave the boss empty handed and in need of day laborers.

A storeperson is the term for a person who works in an area that stores things. Any area like that. If you're referring to people who help people with moving houses, most people either do it themselves, or have enough money that they can easily pay someone else to do it.

And you're assuming that everyone knows how to teach, or work on a car, or is able bodied and able to do manual labour. Say I've got a heart disorder, and if beats at over a certain speed it'll blow up like the opposite of that one film, and that means I can't dig. Say I've got a mental disorder that makes me hate children and everyone who knows less than me so much it sends me into a barbarian rage? What if I don't know about cars and don't have time to learn? To I die, eat a child, and screw up some guy's car?

Really? That your best argument? The work exists but I am too incompetent or unable to do it?

I don't know, man a heart condition that will literally kill you if you exert yourself too much seems like a good excuse not to take a job that involves large amounts of exertion. Just common sense, man.

I assume nothing. I said that the jobs exist. Whether or not YOU have the capability to do it is irrelevant.

You do nothing but assume. Every point you make is an uninformed assumption.

None of your arguments are of consequence. Mostly because none of them are informed and few of them are even sensible.

Are you sure you are not talking about yourself?[/quote]

Oh, that wit! You have slain me! No, my statements are all based in fact, and well informed by first hand experience.

I know everything about everywhere!

Every one of your arguments assumes that the social, cultural, and economic conditions are identical all over the world. That's simply not true, and you know it. I get that you're proud, your a man, you won't roll over, but you're simply incorrect. Now, I know you're wrong, and you know you're wrong, just like anyone else following thread knows you're wrong. You claim to know things you cannot know, and you claim to know them for certain. You resort to irrelevant stories and anecdotes when faced with reason. You ask me to stop, because you don't want to face defeat. Face it, you don't know Perth like you say you know Perth.

You're also rather uncivil.

Tyler Perry:
You insisted that he knows nothing about the culture of Perth, a place he lives. This is not a scientific analysis, genius, like the composition of bedrock. You'd probably think it crazy for me, a person from New York, to insist he knows more about the culture of Texas than you, a native of Texas, amirite? So why are you different? Are you that much smarter than everybody else? Do you drink a magic Perth Knowledge Elixir that makes you more knowledgeable about that city halfway around the world than those who walk its streets and breathe its air?

Actually I argued that something that is present in every other city on earth is also present in his particular city. It has nothing to do with culture. There has never been a culture in history that has stopped the use of day laborers. Hell, even the hunter-gatherer societies probably had the odd day laborer (of a sort). Although I suppose it is convenient for you to read it that way since you insist on cluttering my inbox.

arbane:
I just occurred to me that the old 'teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime' saying is, in fact, WRONG.

"Teach a man to fish AND GIVE HIM A FISHING POLE, and you feed him for a lifetime", possibly.

Fishing poles can be made and there are more ways than that to catch a fish.

Reginald:
I'm not actually making any of those arguments. You're making them.

Actually YOU did. You are arguing that these jobs do not exist. All the jobs I listed are common odd jobs that people do.

It doesn't matter, anyway, since most people do things like painting their houses and fixing their roofs themselves. Those things aren't that hard to do.

Right, because everybody in your city has the time to paint an entire house. Why ask a day laborer to do it when everybody has so much free time.

And you don't want a stranger fucking up the job and running off with your money.

Wow. You obviously have never done the kind of work I am talking about. If you had you would know that we usually work by contract or we only get paid in increments. So if we fuck up we get nothing and usually have to pay to get it fixed.

Again, you can't possibly know that any of your arguments are sound, since you know nothing of Perth.

Actually I know they are sound because what I am saying is uniform across countries.

You've yet to prove that you can survive in Perth by only doing odd jobs.

I never said that you could make a great living in your city only that the jobs exist (and they do).

You've yet to prove the existence of your fantasy world, by the way. General consensus seems to be it exists in your acid flashbacks.

Actually I have. There is no way that it cannot exist. These jobs are common everywhere. You have yet to prove otherwise.

BTW general consensus is with me. I have a few thousand people across several countries who can contest to the jobs I have done for them and they can say that there are other jobs out there.

No, I'm actually talking out of my Perth, where my comments are fully applicable.

So, your city is so alien that it is impossible for a person to survive doing the same fucking thing you can do in every other city on earth. Amazing.

What, like junkyard scrounger?

So instead of addressing the actual point you insist on being obtuse. If you have nothing to say then stop talking.

As I've already stated, leaving isn't all that feasible. Forgetting about a valid rebuttal doesn't make you right, it makes you forgetful.

How in the hell can you say that leaving is not feasible for most of the population?

Your example is one example. One. That's all. And it's a small scale example, at that.

And a valid one. I have also talked about how my entire town still has a main street despite the "Wal-Mart apocalypse" that everyone else is talking about.

The fact is that my example it true to life. It may be inconvenient for you but it is true.

Insurance is fairly common here. That, and paying an unaccredited stranger to tinker with something as valuable is just asking for trouble, since they can cause more problems, then refuse to take responsibility.

Actually I get paid by contract or in increments. The fact that you do not realize how we even get paid further proves how unsuitable you are to be talking about this subject.

Yes, actually. There is a massive supply of willing apprentices, and not that many holes to be dug.

Yeah, right (rolls eyes).

A storeperson is the term for a person who works in an area that stores things. Any area like that. If you're referring to people who help people with moving houses, most people either do it themselves, or have enough money that they can easily pay someone else to do it.

Right, pay someone else to do it. Who the fuck do you think they hire in some cases?

BTW I love the fact that you glossed over this part- "employees in stores never leave the boss empty handed and in need of day laborers"

I don't know, a heart condition that will literally kill you if you exert yourself too much seems like a good excuse not to take a job that involves large amounts of exertion. Serious mental disorders and serious, too.

You are trying to argue that these jobs do not exist and then you say that they do exist but you cannot do them. You unsuitability to work is irrelevant to my point.

You do nothing but assume. Every point you make is an uninformed assumption.

Actually every single point I have made is informed.

No, my statements are all based in fact

No, they are not. These jobs exist. That is a fact.

well informed by first hand experience.

And considering the number of cities, states, and countries where I have taken odd jobs, MY first-hand experience says you are completely wrong.

Every one of your arguments assumes that the social, cultural, and economic conditions are identical all over the world. That's simply not true, and you know it.

You are right, I do know it, which is why I never said that. For the love of Christ, the fact that all economies (short of hunter-gatherer societies) require day laborers to function says nothing about "everything".

I get that you're proud, your a man, you won't roll over, but you're simply incorrect.

No, you are and it is time for you to BE a man and admit it.

You claim to know things you cannot know, and you claim to know them for certain.

Actually I can. There has never been a large economy in history that has functioned without day laborers. Sure, you can go back to the hunter-gatherer societies and see it but aside from that it does not happen. No matter the society, day laborers exist and they can always find jobs especially in major cities. Whether or not they get them does not change the FACT that these jobs exist.

You ask me to stop, because you don't want to face defeat. Face it, you don't know Perth like you say you know Perth.

Apparently I know more about it than you do.

You know what, I am going to assume that you are not being intentionally thick and instead you simply do not know anything about your local economy. You want to see how many day laborer/unskilled worker/part time/odd jobs positions there are in your area? Here are only a handful of them-
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-jobs/perth/c9302l3008303
http://www.jobisjob.com.au/perth/casual/jobs
http://westjobs.com.au/jobseeker/mining-jobs-no-experience.html
http://www.perthnow.com.au/business/thousands-of-jobs-for-unskilled-in-wa/story-e6frg2qc-1225857275531
http://www.tntdownunder.com/jobs/interviews/skilled-and-unskilled-labour---tools-of-the-trade
http://www.workoninternet.com/article_76557.html
http://www.nationalvisas.com.au/blog/australian-news/1200-jobs-in-australia-on-offer-for-job-seekers/

Maybe now you will stop acting so goddamn irritating.

You're also rather uncivil.

Coming from the guy whose first post to me EVER included making fun of me for being from the country.

Bottom line is "Just catch some on your own, crybaby" isn't going to teach anyone anything about actually catching fish. But this discussion has taken a turn to surreal, and I'm not sure I have anything on that level to add. The overarching problem of overall job shortage needs to be solved, sooner better than later.

Yet, still everyone seems to be too damn concerned about their political reputation to work with the other side. I mean honestly, the situation as it is needs input from both sides, and that input is not there in most places.

As for the debate about Perth? Uh, I'm not going to even poke it with a 10 foot pole anymore.

Vegosiux:
Bottom line is "Just catch some on your own, crybaby" isn't going to teach anyone anything about actually catching fish.

Yeah, but a swift kick in the ass to tell them to start fishing would not go amiss.

The overarching problem of overall job shortage needs to be solved, sooner better than later.

Yeah, but in the meantime there is lots of available labor positions that need to be filled. In fact one of my biggest problems with the US government is how much they push people to own a home. Yeah, it is good for when you retire but it limits your mobility. There are jobs, you just have to go to them in some cases. There are always jobs in the country, especially around harvest and branding time, if only people would come for them.

Yet, still everyone seems to be too damn concerned about their political reputation to work with the other side. I mean honestly, the situation as it is needs input from both sides, and that input is not there in most places.

Unfortunately, at this point, it looks like we have not learned from history. I think about this in terms of WW1 (which is neither the first nor the last instance of this happening). WW1 was the great propaganda war. During the war the Germans issued a particular kind of bayonet to their NCOs and Pioneers. It was called a saw back bayonet because it has a saw on the back meant for cutting wood/brush. An allied newspaper ran a story saying that German NCOs were using the bayonet to cut off women and children's limbs. After the story broke (whether by coincidence or because of the story) a few allied soldiers killed a German NCO POW and a story started circulating through the German lines that the allies were executing all POWs who had the saw back bayonet. This is part of the reason why you do not see many of those bayonets with the saw back still intact (the other part has to do with a German army directive but anyway).

The point is that the Allies and the Axis had done such a great job with propaganda that ANY compromise was like surrendering to the devil himself. Unfortunately I see we have done much the same here.

farson135:

Reginald:
I'm not actually making any of those arguments. You're making them.

Actually YOU did. You are arguing that these jobs do not exist. All the jobs I listed are common odd jobs that people do.

It doesn't matter, anyway, since most people do things like painting their houses and fixing their roofs themselves. Those things aren't that hard to do.

Right, because everybody in your city has the time to paint an entire house. Why ask a day laborer to do it when everybody has so much free time.

And you don't want a stranger fucking up the job and running off with your money.

Wow. You obviously have never done the kind of work I am talking about. If you had you would know that we usually work by contract or we only get paid in increments. So if we fuck up we get nothing and usually have to pay to get it fixed.

Again, you can't possibly know that any of your arguments are sound, since you know nothing of Perth.

Actually I know they are sound because what I am saying is uniform across countries.

You've yet to prove that you can survive in Perth by only doing odd jobs.

I never said that you could make a great living in your city only that the jobs exist (and they do).

You've yet to prove the existence of your fantasy world, by the way. General consensus seems to be it exists in your acid flashbacks.

Actually I have. There is no way that it cannot exist. These jobs are common everywhere. You have yet to prove otherwise.

BTW general consensus is with me. I have a few thousand people across several countries who can contest to the jobs I have done for them and they can say that there are other jobs out there.

No, I'm actually talking out of my Perth, where my comments are fully applicable.

So, your city is so alien that it is impossible for a person to survive doing the same fucking thing you can do in every other city on earth. Amazing.

What, like junkyard scrounger?

So instead of addressing the actual point you insist on being obtuse. If you have nothing to say then stop talking.

As I've already stated, leaving isn't all that feasible. Forgetting about a valid rebuttal doesn't make you right, it makes you forgetful.

How in the hell can you say that leaving is not feasible for most of the population?

Your example is one example. One. That's all. And it's a small scale example, at that.

And a valid one. I have also talked about how my entire town still has a main street despite the "Wal-Mart apocalypse" that everyone else is talking about.

The fact is that my example it true to life. It may be inconvenient for you but it is true.

Insurance is fairly common here. That, and paying an unaccredited stranger to tinker with something as valuable is just asking for trouble, since they can cause more problems, then refuse to take responsibility.

Actually I get paid by contract or in increments. The fact that you do not realize how we even get paid further proves how unsuitable you are to be talking about this subject.

Yes, actually. There is a massive supply of willing apprentices, and not that many holes to be dug.

Yeah, right (rolls eyes).

A storeperson is the term for a person who works in an area that stores things. Any area like that. If you're referring to people who help people with moving houses, most people either do it themselves, or have enough money that they can easily pay someone else to do it.

Right, pay someone else to do it. Who the fuck do you think they hire in some cases?

BTW I love the fact that you glossed over this part- "employees in stores never leave the boss empty handed and in need of day laborers"

I don't know, a heart condition that will literally kill you if you exert yourself too much seems like a good excuse not to take a job that involves large amounts of exertion. Serious mental disorders and serious, too.

You are trying to argue that these jobs do not exist and then you say that they do exist but you cannot do them. You unsuitability to work is irrelevant to my point.

You do nothing but assume. Every point you make is an uninformed assumption.

Actually every single point I have made is informed.

No, my statements are all based in fact

No, they are not. These jobs exist. That is a fact.

well informed by first hand experience.

And considering the number of cities, states, and countries where I have taken odd jobs, MY first-hand experience says you are completely wrong.

Every one of your arguments assumes that the social, cultural, and economic conditions are identical all over the world. That's simply not true, and you know it.

You are right, I do know it, which is why I never said that. For the love of Christ, the fact that all economies (short of hunter-gatherer societies) require day laborers to function says nothing about "everything".

I get that you're proud, your a man, you won't roll over, but you're simply incorrect.

No, you are and it is time for you to BE a man and admit it.

You claim to know things you cannot know, and you claim to know them for certain.

Actually I can. There has never been a large economy in history that has functioned without day laborers. Sure, you can go back to the hunter-gatherer societies and see it but aside from that it does not happen. No matter the society, day laborers exist and they can always find jobs especially in major cities. Whether or not they get them does not change the FACT that these jobs exist.

You ask me to stop, because you don't want to face defeat. Face it, you don't know Perth like you say you know Perth.

Apparently I know more about it than you do.

You know what, I am going to assume that you are not being intentionally thick and instead you simply do not know anything about your local economy. You want to see how many day laborer/unskilled worker/part time/odd jobs positions there are in your area? Here are only a handful of them-
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-jobs/perth/c9302l3008303
http://www.jobisjob.com.au/perth/casual/jobs
http://westjobs.com.au/jobseeker/mining-jobs-no-experience.html
http://www.perthnow.com.au/business/thousands-of-jobs-for-unskilled-in-wa/story-e6frg2qc-1225857275531
http://www.tntdownunder.com/jobs/interviews/skilled-and-unskilled-labour---tools-of-the-trade
http://www.workoninternet.com/article_76557.html
http://www.nationalvisas.com.au/blog/australian-news/1200-jobs-in-australia-on-offer-for-job-seekers/

Maybe now you will stop acting so goddamn irritating.

You're also rather uncivil.

Coming from the guy whose first post to me EVER included making fun of me for being from the country.

You really should have read those links. The Gumtree link, they are not jobs available, they are people looking for jobs, all 12,000 of them. The next link is correct, they are actually available jobs, all 17 of them.

All those mining links, they are pointless because they are not for Perth only, they are for Australia. Get yourself an atlas and look at a map of Australia. West Australia is a fucking big place and those mining jobs tend to be in the middle of no where because the ones that are anywhere close to Perth are filled. They take workers from anywhere in Australia because the jobs are fly in - fly out. It is not a very nice way to live.

You have no idea how things are in Australia. You might be able to find lots of odd jobs in Texas because you have a tonne of people with limited funds that want to have things done. That is not the case in Australia, especially Perth, a city that is booming because of WA mining. Unlike the US we don't have unemployment problems, we did not suffer through a recession and our wages have not been stagnant for decades. A poor Australian is wealthier than a middle class American. The result is people pay professionals to do shit for them because we can afford it.

Let's get to the root of the issue, farson. You don't know what Perth is like. Not everywhere is the same. These are two facts that are clearly evident. Odd jobs are not feasible in Perth. Those are my points.

You can't get around them by insulting me, or anybody else. You can't get around them by repeating yourself. You can't get around them by ignoring arguments and fashioning strawmen. You can't get around them without first hand Perth experience. You can't get around them without reading them carefully and understanding what is being said. You can't get around them by trying to change the subject. You can debate them in a mature fashion, or not at all.

I don't care about Texas, or the one Neighbouring state that apparently has work. I don't care about that one time you allegedly fixed an air conditioner for twenty dollars in some unspecified far-off land. We're not talking about that. We're talking about your knowledge of Perth, or lack thereof. You yet to demonstrate any knowledge of Perth. You have not lived in Perth. You have not visited Perth. You do not have first-hand experience in Perth. Your Perth information has been gleaned from sensationalistic on-line tabloids. Your experience elsewhere is invalid and irrelevant to the discussion, which is on Perth.

The other thing we're talking about the feasibility of odd jobs in Perth. In Perth. Not Hawaii, not Venezuela, Perth. We're talking about your Perth experience, regarding Perth, and the feasibility of odd jobs in Perth. That's what we're supposed to be talking about. if you'll behave, we can discuss this without name-calling, bizarre tangents, and irrelevant claims. You have misunderstood many of my statements, and as such I will try to be as clear as possible, for your benefit.

After that's finished, we could also address the barrier of entry and social mobility. That'd be nice.

farson135:

You're also rather uncivil.

Coming from the guy whose first post to me EVER included making fun of me for being from the country.

That's what we call a little joke. Jokes are things you do for fun and social interaction. They're a bit different from insults in that that are not really intended to insult. Little is a size, which is generally smaller than large. I didn't intend to offend you, I thought you'd understand.

adamtm:

arbane:
I just occurred to me that the old 'teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime' saying is, in fact, WRONG.

"Teach a man to fish AND GIVE HIM A FISHING POLE, and you feed him for a lifetime", possibly.

And somewhere he can fish...

If you teach me how to fish in the desert you can go and fuck yourself.

Good point.

pyrate:
Snip

If you are not going to address my post directly then snip it.

You really should have read those links. The Gumtree link, they are not jobs available, they are people looking for jobs, all 12,000 of them.

Actually I did. You however didn't. You see that link on the side of the Guntree site that says "Offering: 4,417"? Fail.

The next link is correct, they are actually available jobs, all 17 of them.

Therefore the jobs exist. That was my entire point.

All those mining links, they are pointless because they are not for Perth only, they are for Australia.

Actually they are for Western Australia in the Perth area.

You have no idea how things are in Australia. You might be able to find lots of odd jobs in Texas because you have a tonne of people with limited funds that want to have things done. That is not the case in Australia, especially Perth, a city that is booming because of WA mining. Unlike the US we don't have unemployment problems, we did not suffer through a recession and our wages have not been stagnant for decades. A poor Australian is wealthier than a middle class American. The result is people pay professionals to do shit for them because we can afford it.

Actually Austin is a boom town. As a city it is experiencing the highest growth rate of any other city in the US. Yet, people still need odd jobs done. Why? Because everybody prefers to save a few bucks.

Unless you are trying to argue that Aussies are spend thrifty you are talking out of your ass.

Reginald:
Let's get to the root of the issue, farson.

Ok.

You don't know what Perth is like. Not everywhere is the same.

In its entirety? No. But I sure as hell do know that there are odd jobs there and I have proven that.

Odd jobs are not feasible in Perth. Those are my points.

I just proved that they exist and you are denying it

You can't get around them by insulting me, or anybody else. You can't get around them by repeating yourself. You can't get around them by ignoring arguments and fashioning strawmen. You can't get around them without first hand Perth experience. You can't get around them without reading them carefully and understanding what is being said. You can't get around them by trying to change the subject.

Actually I get around your points with FACTS. I have proven unequivocally that odd jobs exist in Perth. Stop being childish and admit your mistake.

You can debate them in a mature fashion, or not at all.

Coming from the guy who felt the need to degrade me the first time he ever addressed me.

I don't care about Texas, or the one Neighbouring state that apparently has work. I don't care about that one time you allegedly fixed an air conditioner for twenty dollars in some unspecified far-off land. We're not talking about that. We're talking about your knowledge of Perth, or lack thereof.

So how is Perth different from every other place on earth I have visited?

You have not visited Perth. You do not have first-hand experience in Perth.

You sure about that?

Your Perth information has been gleaned from sensationalistic on-line tabloids.

You sure about that?

Your experience elsewhere is invalid and irrelevant to the discussion, which is on Perth.

Actually you made a discussion about Perth. Perth is irrelevant. My point is true all over the world.

The other thing we're talking about the feasibility of odd jobs in Perth. In Perth. Not Hawaii, not Venezuela, Perth. We're talking about your Perth experience, regarding Perth, and the feasibility of odd jobs in Perth. That's what we're supposed to be talking about. if you'll behave, we can discuss this without name-calling, bizarre tangents, and irrelevant claims. You have misunderstood many of my statements, and as such I will try to be as clear as possible, for your benefit.

So you are not going to address the fact that I have provided several links that prove you completely wrong. Very mature.

After that's finished, we could also address the barrier of entry and social mobility.

I was, until you interrupted me.

That's what we call a little joke. Jokes are things you do for fun and social interaction. They're a bit different from insults in that that are not really intended to insult. Little is a size, which is generally smaller than large. I didn't intend to offend you, I thought you'd understand.

Your idea of a joke is to talk to a person like they are an ignorant redneck because they come from the country or because their family has a ranch? You have a shitty sense of humor. What next? You want to make a joke about the holocaust to me? I am sure my relatives would appreciate it if they were still around.

BTW if you meant it as a joke the best thing for you to do it fucking apologize. I made it clear in my next post that you were out of line and needed to stop but you didn't.

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