What kind of headgear should be allowed on schools?
No headgear should be allowed
22.8% (28)
22.8% (28)
Only religious headgear should be allowed
17.1% (21)
17.1% (21)
Only atheist headgear should be allowed
3.3% (4)
3.3% (4)
Only headgear that leaves the face visible and doesn't hinder anyone's view should be allowed
55.3% (68)
55.3% (68)
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Poll: Atheist headgear banned on school

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So the highschool I attended in the past has always banned headgear. But now Muslim girls are attending the school, and they want to wear their headscarves. So the school has decided to allow headgear - but only if you have religious reasons.

I think this is unjustified discrimination. Why aren't atheists allowed to wear headgear, but are you allowed to put on your head whatever your like if God said it?

An atheist cannot wear this...
image

But if the Flying Spaghetti Monster commands me to dress like a pirate, I'm allowed to wear this:
image

It seems way more logical and way less discriminatory, to allow....
-headgear that leaves the face properly visible and doesn't hinder the view of students behind you
...or...
-no headgear

What do you think?

Also relevant:
http://www.geekologie.com/2011/07/pastafarian-granted-right-to-wear-religi.php

Equality before the law is probably forever inattainable. It is a noble ideal, but it can never be realized, for what men value in this world is not rights but privileges.
-H.L. Mencken

Moral philosophers have defined discrimination as disadvantageous treatment or consideration. This is a comparative definition. An individual need not be actually harmed in order to be discriminated against. He or she just needs to be treated worse than others for some arbitrary reason. If someone decides to donate to help orphan children, but decides to donate less, say, to black children out of a racist attitude, he or she will be acting in a discriminatory way even if he or she actually benefits the people he discriminates against by donating some money to them.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination

I don't really care that much about the discriminatory part, it just seems stupid to ban headgear, period. What the hell are schools trying to enforce/achieve by doing that? What the hell is the problem with me choosing to wear a beanie cap if I so choose? :/

Quit being so sensitive. If there was such a thing as 'atheist head gear' then you might be able to make an argument, but no one is discriminating against you by allowing these girls the basic right of practicing the tenants of their religion.

BreakfastMan:
I don't really care that much about the discriminatory part, it just seems stupid to ban headgear, period. What the hell are schools trying to enforce/achieve by doing that? What the hell is the problem with me choosing to wear a beanie cap if I so choose? :/

They think it's a sign of respect not to wear a cap.

irmasterlol:
Quit being so sensitive. If there was such a thing as 'atheist head gear' then you might be able to make an argument, but no one is discriminating against you by allowing these girls the basic right of practicing the tenants of their religion.

But what if an atheist girl thinks it's slutty to display her hair? She should first convert to Islam before being allowed to wear a headscarf?

Don't you think our goal should be 'equality for the law'? What if religious people were denied something? What if white people were allowed to wear caps but black people not?

Danyal:

BreakfastMan:
I don't really care that much about the discriminatory part, it just seems stupid to ban headgear, period. What the hell are schools trying to enforce/achieve by doing that? What the hell is the problem with me choosing to wear a beanie cap if I so choose? :/

They think it's a sign of respect not to wear a cap.

Never understood that silly tradition and does not really have any place in the modern world. Seriously, it is only a sign of respect to not wear a hat because we make it one. :/

@Danyal A publicly funded school should not have the option to endorse one religion and favor it above the others while preventing certain rights given to them by not being Muslim. These girls, if they wish to keep their tradition, should either move to a private school or another school with no such policy, or the school should change its policy to even the grounds with all of the students.
Question - Can You walk in the school in a Burka yourself?

Danyal:
But what if an atheist girl thinks it's slutty to display her hair? She should first convert to Islam before being allowed to wear a headscarf?

Don't you think our goal should be 'equality for the law'? What if religious people were denied something? What if white people were allowed to wear caps but black people not?

What if the moon falls on someone's head in class? I don't see how a bullshit, irrational hypothetical situation like that proves anything. Find me exactly one case of that and I'll concede your argument. I'm assuming we're talking about the United States here, so you may be familiar with a little thing called the first amendment that protects their right. If you can find a way to prove that your pirate hat is religious, then they'd have to let you wear that too, but I don't see them buying into your "look-at-me-I'm-so-much-smarter-than-all-the-religious-people" joke religion.

TheIronRuler:
@Danyal A publicly funded school should not have the option to endorse one religion and favor it above the others while preventing certain rights given to them by not being Muslim. These girls, if they wish to keep their tradition, should either move to a private school or another school with no such policy, or the school should change its policy to even the grounds with all of the students.
Question - Can You walk in the school in a Burka yourself?

Actually in the U.S. they totally do. Freedom of religion was one of the nation's founding principles, and a public organization banning religious headwear infringes heavily upon that right.

irmasterlol:

TheIronRuler:
@Danyal A publicly funded school should not have the option to endorse one religion and favor it above the others while preventing certain rights given to them by not being Muslim. These girls, if they wish to keep their tradition, should either move to a private school or another school with no such policy, or the school should change its policy to even the grounds with all of the students.
Question - Can You walk in the school in a Burka yourself?

Actually in the U.S. they totally do. Freedom of religion was one of the nation's founding principles, and a public organization banning religious headwear infringes heavily upon that right.

.
I wonder what's the school's view is on the Yamakah.
Anyway... I know of the freedom of religion but doesn't giving Muslim girls the right to wear such headgear infringes on the rights of their peers, therefore promoting and favoring the faith of Islam by a publicly funded school?

irmasterlol:

TheIronRuler:
@Danyal A publicly funded school should not have the option to endorse one religion and favor it above the others while preventing certain rights given to them by not being Muslim. These girls, if they wish to keep their tradition, should either move to a private school or another school with no such policy, or the school should change its policy to even the grounds with all of the students.
Question - Can You walk in the school in a Burka yourself?

Actually in the U.S. they totally do. Freedom of religion was one of the nation's founding principles, and a public organization banning religious headwear infringes heavily upon that right.

One of me pals used to wear a, whatyecall it. Headgear for the winter to school, until it was banned on the ground of being disrespectful doing the time where muslim immigrants were flooding into the country (Purely coincidental mind you, I dont blame them for changing the country somehow) But anyway, soon muslims were ofcourse going to the school aswell. I mean we have a lot moer of them. So religious headgear was, allowed. This pissed my pal off (Mostly because it was merely a couple of weeks after his was banned) So he campaigned for over a month and after some hard work his right to wear non-religious headgear was restored upon the school allowing all headgear that doesnt hinder the view of those behind you, nor the teachers view of your face.

What we can learn from that is, I dont think anyone in Danyels school has really said anything. I believe he just went directly to the Escapist, might be wrong. Might be right. I bet on right xD

(Sidenote to the story) He did not believe it was slutty to show his hair, he merely believed his hair a scourge on humanity that nobody should be forced to look upon. He actually missed a couple days of school after the ban.

TheIronRuler:

irmasterlol:

TheIronRuler:
@Danyal A publicly funded school should not have the option to endorse one religion and favor it above the others while preventing certain rights given to them by not being Muslim. These girls, if they wish to keep their tradition, should either move to a private school or another school with no such policy, or the school should change its policy to even the grounds with all of the students.
Question - Can You walk in the school in a Burka yourself?

Actually in the U.S. they totally do. Freedom of religion was one of the nation's founding principles, and a public organization banning religious headwear infringes heavily upon that right.

.
I wonder what's the school's view is on the Yamakah.
Anyway... I know of the freedom of religion but doesn't giving Muslim girls the right to wear such headgear infringes on the rights of their peers, therefore promoting and favoring the faith of Islam by a publicly funded school?

It's not just Islam. They would have to allow all religious clothing. Yes, any Jewish student that so wished would be permitted to wear a Kippah, and a Catholic student would be free to wear wear prayer beads. I'm sincerely sorry that your religious affiliation does not include an official hat, but that doesn't mean it has to be illegal for everyone who has one to wear theirs. If everyone was forced to wear Muslim clothing, then it would be discrimination, but that's not what's happening.

Nikolaz72:

irmasterlol:

TheIronRuler:
@Danyal A publicly funded school should not have the option to endorse one religion and favor it above the others while preventing certain rights given to them by not being Muslim. These girls, if they wish to keep their tradition, should either move to a private school or another school with no such policy, or the school should change its policy to even the grounds with all of the students.
Question - Can You walk in the school in a Burka yourself?

Actually in the U.S. they totally do. Freedom of religion was one of the nation's founding principles, and a public organization banning religious headwear infringes heavily upon that right.

One of me pals used to wear a, whatyecall it. Headgear for the winter to school, until it was banned on the ground of being disrespectful doing the time where muslim immigrants were flooding into the country (Purely coincidental mind you, I dont blame them for changing the country somehow) But anyway, soon muslims were ofcourse going to the school aswell. I mean we have a lot moer of them. So religious headgear was, allowed. This pissed my pal off (Mostly because it was merely a couple of weeks after his was banned) So he campaigned for over a month and after some hard work his right to wear non-religious headgear was restored upon the school allowing all headgear that doesnt hinder the view of those behind you, nor the teachers view of your face.

What we can learn from that is, I dont think anyone in Danyels school has really said anything. I believe he just went directly to the Escapist, might be wrong. Might be right. I bet on right xD

(Sidenote to the story) He did not believe it was slutty to show his hair, he merely believed his hair a scourge on humanity that nobody should be forced to look upon. He actually missed a couple days of school after the ban.

Non-religious headgear is a matter of school policy and not subject to the philosophy of basic human rights. My entire school district was so homogenous that this sort of thing didn't once come up. The closest we ever got was rednecks complaining about not getting to wear their camouflage baseball hats.

At first I thought this was a necro thread. Danyal, you've brought up this exact same topic before and presented the exact same argument before.

Yes, allowing Muslims to wear hijabs/niqabs/etc probably does constitute the school rules being waived. So would a Sikh boy wearing a turban, or a kid who's receiving chemotherapy who chooses to wear a bandana for modesty reasons. It's not so much a raised finger to authority as a relatively small concession to accommodate what the children in question - or perhaps rather their family and social group - considers an obligation.

Perhaps the world would be a better place if there was a blanket ban on all religious expression that couldn't be subtly displayed and easily put away, like a crucifix pendant or a religious bracelet. But that's an issue to be addressed at a national level, not at schools (where minority religions already have a hard enough time integrating, surely). Think about it; if religious pupils are de facto banned from mainstream schools, it'll lead to even more faith schools and the inevitable increased segregation of society that follows.

The more extreme versions of headwear (like the hijab, I think) should be banned like they have in France, because it's degrading to the women as it's pretty much presented to them without very much choice. As long as the invididual is making a choice, they should be allowed to wear whatever they want in school, providing it doesn't disrupt their education or the education of their peers.

Yeah, that's discrimination, in that one personal motivation is assigned more weight than all others in performing the exact same act with the exact same consequences for the school.

Hopefully someone will sue them, if nothing else to shed further light on how the religious and their peculiar personal delusions are given special treatment.

Either you ban all headgear (if you have a relevant reason for doing so at hand), allow it under objective headgear-related criteria that applies to everyone, or don't regulate it at all.

This topic again?

You'd really think that with your time off from here you'd have come up with something original. I've never understood the banning of headgear in general, honestly. It's perhaps an effort to restrict gang symbols? Still not a fan, even if so. I still recall cases where schools decided that a cross was "religious jewelry" and a pentacle was "gang sign".

Esotera:
The more extreme versions of headwear (like the hijab, I think) should be banned like they have in France, because it's degrading to the women as it's pretty much presented to them without very much choice.

Sounds like you don't really understand the function of the hijab. It's not degrading to women, and in Western countries it's frequently a choice on the part of the woman. Having a part of yourself that you keep private isn't a degradation, and can be quite empowering, actually. (And if you think a hijab is extreme, I can't imagine what you'd think of a chador.)

Have you ever actually spoken to a Hijabi about what they feel about their clothing? A lot of people feel wearing a bikini is degrading to women, fwiw. It's no less degrading for society to expect you to reveal what you'd rather not reveal, you know. This should be a woman's choice, and no business of anyone else. Are some girls socially pressured to veil when they're young? Yes, but again, some girls are also socially pressured to dress in a revealing way when they're young, and I rarely hear the same uproar about that that people (particularly men) summon on behalf of the "oppressed" women in hijab. I've also never heard an uproar about Orthodox Jewish women who wear a headscarf or a wig. I have myself chosen to dress modestly, as a personal choice that has nothing to do with my religion, and it bothers me quite a bit that women's clothing is so intensely policed and politicized (although really, everything about a woman's body is policed and politicized).

irmasterlol:
What if the moon falls on someone's head in class? I don't see how a bullshit, irrational hypothetical situation like that proves anything. Find me exactly one case of that and I'll concede your argument. I'm assuming we're talking about the United States here, so you may be familiar with a little thing called the first amendment that protects their right. If you can find a way to prove that your pirate hat is religious, then they'd have to let you wear that too, but I don't see them buying into your "look-at-me-I'm-so-much-smarter-than-all-the-religious-people" joke religion.

Ah, I'm glad that you mentioned the US constitution, because there's some lovely stuff in there about religion.

Have a glance at Article the third from the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. What does it say? Allow me:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion".

Oh, damn...that's not really helping your argument, is it? I mean, allowing one religion to have priviledges above that afforded to those not belonging to it would seem to be a clear violation of that. Bummer.

Oh well, it's not like a defining characteristic of any democratic legal system is the principle of equality before the law!

...oh shit...

At least this shit wouldn't fly in Sweden. You know, there's no better way to increase the love for my country than looking at the US.

I am not sure what they say elsewhere but around here, when I was in school, the typical reasoning for banning any particular item of clothing was that it was to prevent kids from either concealing weapons or showing gang affiliation. If you could give a reasonable purpose for your "headgear" then an exception could be made. I believe a kid at my school who had leukemia was allowed a baseball cap. Sadly a friend of mine came up against the prohibition on baggy clothing several times and the school did not care to recognize that he was poor and owned nothing but hand-me-downs, donations, and bargain bin clothes.

Polarity27:

Sounds like you don't really understand the function of the hijab. It's not degrading to women, and in Western countries it's frequently a choice on the part of the woman. Having a part of yourself that you keep private isn't a degradation, and can be quite empowering, actually. (And if you think a hijab is extreme, I can't imagine what you'd think of a chador.)

Have you ever actually spoken to a Hijabi about what they feel about their clothing? A lot of people feel wearing a bikini is degrading to women, fwiw. It's no less degrading for society to expect you to reveal what you'd rather not reveal, you know. This should be a woman's choice, and no business of anyone else. Are some girls socially pressured to veil when they're young? Yes, but again, some girls are also socially pressured to dress in a revealing way when they're young, and I rarely hear the same uproar about that that people (particularly men) summon on behalf of the "oppressed" women in hijab. I've also never heard an uproar about Orthodox Jewish women who wear a headscarf or a wig. I have myself chosen to dress modestly, as a personal choice that has nothing to do with my religion, and it bothers me quite a bit that women's clothing is so intensely policed and politicized (although really, everything about a woman's body is policed and politicized).

It may not be the hijab I'm thinking about, which is why I said I wasn't entirely certain. Maybe the burqa? Either way it was supposed to be worn only by a few thousand women in all of France and they were largely forced to wear it by husbands/family - don't know if this rings any bells for names.

Obviously there's nothing wrong with wearing whatever the hell you want (as long as you want to) in your own time, but to take your example of a bikini, that's hardly appropriate clothing for a school.

Esotera:

Polarity27:

Sounds like you don't really understand the function of the hijab. It's not degrading to women, and in Western countries it's frequently a choice on the part of the woman. Having a part of yourself that you keep private isn't a degradation, and can be quite empowering, actually. (And if you think a hijab is extreme, I can't imagine what you'd think of a chador.)

Have you ever actually spoken to a Hijabi about what they feel about their clothing? A lot of people feel wearing a bikini is degrading to women, fwiw. It's no less degrading for society to expect you to reveal what you'd rather not reveal, you know. This should be a woman's choice, and no business of anyone else. Are some girls socially pressured to veil when they're young? Yes, but again, some girls are also socially pressured to dress in a revealing way when they're young, and I rarely hear the same uproar about that that people (particularly men) summon on behalf of the "oppressed" women in hijab. I've also never heard an uproar about Orthodox Jewish women who wear a headscarf or a wig. I have myself chosen to dress modestly, as a personal choice that has nothing to do with my religion, and it bothers me quite a bit that women's clothing is so intensely policed and politicized (although really, everything about a woman's body is policed and politicized).

It may not be the hijab I'm thinking about, which is why I said I wasn't entirely certain. Maybe the burqa? Either way it was supposed to be worn only by a few thousand women in all of France and they were largely forced to wear it by husbands/family - don't know if this rings any bells for names.

Obviously there's nothing wrong with wearing whatever the hell you want (as long as you want to) in your own time, but to take your example of a bikini, that's hardly appropriate clothing for a school.

If you thought my response was solely about what's appropriate for a school, you missed my point completely. I can't imagine that your notion that a hijab is "degrading to women" was confined to school attire, and not about your attitudes toward women's clothing in general.

In reading a story like what you're talking about, I'd look to see what kind of sources it had on the "forced to wear it by husbands/family" and see who these quotes were coming from. If they're coming from women within that culture, that's one thing, but if they're coming from people outside of it, that's something else entirely. Could you find a link to what you're talking about, please?

Esotera:
It may not be the hijab I'm thinking about, which is why I said I wasn't entirely certain. Maybe the burqa? Either way it was supposed to be worn only by a few thousand women in all of France and they were largely forced to wear it by husbands/family - don't know if this rings any bells for names.

Obviously there's nothing wrong with wearing whatever the hell you want (as long as you want to) in your own time, but to take your example of a bikini, that's hardly appropriate clothing for a school.

Hijab is just a head covering. A burqa is a full body covering including a head cover and veil which may not even allow you to see the wearers eyes. The burqa is what most people talk about banning (or have banned). Whether or not it is forced upon them is another story. It certainly makes it sound much more supportable when you say that it is forced upon them by their abusive misogynistic partners.

Here's an opinion piece on the subject, I have not really found anything more proper regarding women that desire to wear a burqa...
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-02-04/world/france.burqa.ban_1_veil-burqa-muslim-woman?_s=PM:WORLD

Polarity27:

If you thought my response was solely about what's appropriate for a school, you missed my point completely. I can't imagine that your notion that a hijab is "degrading to women" was confined to school attire, and not about your attitudes toward women's clothing in general.

In reading a story like what you're talking about, I'd look to see what kind of sources it had on the "forced to wear it by husbands/family" and see who these quotes were coming from. If they're coming from women within that culture, that's one thing, but if they're coming from people outside of it, that's something else entirely. Could you find a link to what you're talking about, please?

As I said, I got confused with terminology, and think I meant the burqa. Anyway, firstly you have a lot of adverse health effects associated with wearing a burqa[1]. And also it does appear like very few people wear them.[2][3]

The hijab is completely fine to wear in schools as there's no way it could obstruct learning, and it's down to a person's choice. The burqa can obstruct learning by providing a communication barrier for starters[4] and is harmful to health, so I don't see why it should be allowed.

irmasterlol:

Danyal:
But what if an atheist girl thinks it's slutty to display her hair? She should first convert to Islam before being allowed to wear a headscarf?

Don't you think our goal should be 'equality for the law'? What if religious people were denied something? What if white people were allowed to wear caps but black people not?

What if the moon falls on someone's head in class? I don't see how a bullshit, irrational hypothetical situation like that proves anything. Find me exactly one case of that and I'll concede your argument.

I'm often told that Muslims do not wear a headscarf because they are forced to do it, but because of free choice. Because it's "empowering" to wear it. Why then is it a 'bullshit, irrational hypothetical situation' to assume that somewhere an atheist girl wants to wear a headscarf?

Anyhow, there's an atheist girl in my class (university, no rules regarding headgear here) who sometimes wears a headscarf. It's some kind of Japanese thing, not Islamic, and still a part of her hair is visible, but it's a headscarf nonetheless.

Headscarves or head scarves or scarves are scarves covering most or all of the top of a woman's hair and her head. Headscarves may be worn for a variety of purposes, such as for warmth, for sanitation, for fashion or social distinction; with religious significance, to hide baldness, out of modesty, or other forms of social convention.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headscarf

'Religious significance' is only one of multiple reasons.

image

I thought the British Queen was some kind of religious, but is she allowed to wear a headscarf because she is officially a member of a certain religion?

irmasterlol:
I'm assuming we're talking about the United States here, so you may be familiar with a little thing called the first amendment that protects their right. If you can find a way to prove that your pirate hat is religious, then they'd have to let you wear that too, but I don't see them buying into your "look-at-me-I'm-so-much-smarter-than-all-the-religious-people" joke religion.

I'm Dutch, so it's not the US, but we have 'freedom of religion' in our constitution too. But freedom of religion doesn't mean you're allowed to do whatever you're religion demands! If I want to sacrifice you to the sungod, I'm not allowed to do it, how religious it might be.

Sorry dude but thats sounds pretty...whiny. How does it hurt you for Muslims to wear head scarves and Jews to wear skull caps? You have no big reason to wear anything like that and they do.

Batou667:
At first I thought this was a necro thread. Danyal, you've brought up this exact same topic before and presented the exact same argument before.

Yes, but...
1. I couldn't find the old one back
2. New OP, new chances
3. Polls work now :)

Batou667:
Perhaps the world would be a better place if there was a blanket ban on all religious expression that couldn't be subtly displayed and easily put away, like a crucifix pendant or a religious bracelet.

What?! You cannot wear anything that shows you're religious?! How could you ever enforce that?
I mean, would I be allowed to wear a 'I love the Flying Spaghetti Monster'-shirt if Pastafarianism wasn't recognized as a real religion?

Buddhism is a religion and philosophy indigenous to the Indian subcontinent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism

Would I be allowed to wear a 'I love Buddha' shirt as long as I say that it's a philosophy, not a religion? Is this...
image
...allowed?

Shock and Awe:
Sorry dude but thats sounds pretty...whiny. How does it hurt you for Muslims to wear head scarves and Jews to wear skull caps? You have no big reason to wear anything like that and they do.

What if whites were allowed to wear headgear and blacks not?

Moral philosophers have defined discrimination as disadvantageous treatment or consideration. This is a comparative definition. An individual need not be actually harmed in order to be discriminated against. He or she just needs to be treated worse than others for some arbitrary reason. If someone decides to donate to help orphan children, but decides to donate less, say, to black children out of a racist attitude, he or she will be acting in a discriminatory way even if he or she actually benefits the people he discriminates against by donating some money to them.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination

You don't like the principle of equal treatment?

TheIronRuler:
These girls, if they wish to keep their tradition, should either move to a private school or another school with no such policy

Now you're being absurd.

The government makes much bigger accommodations for people's religions then wearing a hat in school. If someone's religion says that they have to wear a hat (not only Muslims by the way; also Jewish and some types of Christians)then not letting them into school because of that is INCREDIBLY counter-productive.

None of them should be allowed to wear a hat or any other head dressing shenanigans. I don't care if their religion says they have to, believing in something shouldn't give you special rights.

Or, alternatively, let everyone wear a hat.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
None of them should be allowed to wear a hat or any other head dressing shenanigans. I don't care if their religion says they have to, believing in something shouldn't give you special rights.

Or, alternatively, let everyone wear a hat.

The latter is much preferable to the former. It seems to me that if a religious exemption to a rule seems plausibly reasonable, then the entire rule is likely unnecessary.

Seanchaidh:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
None of them should be allowed to wear a hat or any other head dressing shenanigans. I don't care if their religion says they have to, believing in something shouldn't give you special rights.

Or, alternatively, let everyone wear a hat.

The latter is much preferable to the former. It seems to me that if a religious exemption to a rule seems plausibly reasonable, then the entire rule is likely unnecessary.

I don't even understand why the rule is in place tbh... It's not like all headgear is dangerous mass murdering equipment made specifically for harassing teachers.

I wonder what school officials would say if some kid came to school wearing things with the Buddhist swastika-like symbol on it. That might turn out to be one fun fiasco to watch at a distance.

Danyal:
So the highschool I attended in the past has always banned headgear. But now Muslim girls are attending the school, and they want to wear their headscarves. So the school has decided to allow headgear - but only if you have religious reasons.

I think this is unjustified discrimination. Why aren't atheists allowed to wear headgear, but are you allowed to put on your head whatever your like if God said it?

An atheist cannot wear this...
[snip]

But if the Flying Spaghetti Monster commands me to dress like a pirate, I'm allowed to wear this:
[snip]

It seems way more logical and way less discriminatory, to allow....
-headgear that leaves the face properly visible and doesn't hinder the view of students behind you
...or...
-no headgear

What do you think?

Also relevant:
http://www.geekologie.com/2011/07/pastafarian-granted-right-to-wear-religi.php

Equality before the law is probably forever inattainable. It is a noble ideal, but it can never be realized, for what men value in this world is not rights but privileges.
-H.L. Mencken

Moral philosophers have defined discrimination as disadvantageous treatment or consideration. This is a comparative definition. An individual need not be actually harmed in order to be discriminated against. He or she just needs to be treated worse than others for some arbitrary reason. If someone decides to donate to help orphan children, but decides to donate less, say, to black children out of a racist attitude, he or she will be acting in a discriminatory way even if he or she actually benefits the people he discriminates against by donating some money to them.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination

I think you've either got to allow all religious memorabilia or ban all of it. So if you're going to allow headscarves, you also have to allow crucifixes and Sikh daggers. Or conversely, if you're going to ban the Burqua, you also have to ban a nun's headgear, or Orthodox Jewish dress.
However, since it isn't a tenant of an atheist's faith to wear a cap, that doesn't count, the same way that a System of a Down T-shirt isn't a religious item. Bear in mind I'm both an atheist and a System fan!

I also think you have to use a degree of 'common sense' (I hate using that phrase because it makes me sound like I'm from the fucking Daily Mail) to deal with potential conflicts. A school banning the headscarf would de facto prevent a lot of Muslim kids from going to school, which I think would be wrong.
But you can compromise, and say that while headscarves are fine, they should be neutral in colour, and that the rest of the school uniform should be worn as normal, and kids can also choose to wear a crucifix or a turban if they so please. That way, you aren't giving any one faith special privilege, but you're accommodating needs.

Another example is the UK police. There was a stink up a few years ago because Sikh police officers wanted to be allowed to wear the Turban, which was officially against uniform regulations. The solution? They developed a particular type of turban that offered similar protective qualities as a helmet, and in colours which fit in with the rest of the uniform. They've also developed a smaller head covering that can fit under ballistic helmets so Sikhs are able to be a part of riot teams.

It's about balance - you obviously can't allow religion to dictate things to the extent that it causes harm , but that doesn't mean you have to gratuitously ban stuff because it's linked to a religious belief.

OneCatch :
Another example is the UK police. There was a stink up a few years ago because Sikh police officers wanted to be allowed to wear the Turban, which was officially against uniform regulations. The solution? They developed a particular type of turban that offered similar protective qualities as a helmet, and in colours which fit in with the rest of the uniform. They've also developed a smaller head covering that can fit under ballistic helmets so Sikhs are able to be a part of riot teams.

Ok, I was just going to make mention of people over here in Cityrail (or whatever they are changing the name to) wearing turbans that match the uniforms, and how I think I said that last time the excat same thread came up.

But...turbans that work as well as helmets? Really? I don't see how that would work, but that's awesome.

thaluikhain:

OneCatch :
Another example is the UK police. There was a stink up a few years ago because Sikh police officers wanted to be allowed to wear the Turban, which was officially against uniform regulations. The solution? They developed a particular type of turban that offered similar protective qualities as a helmet, and in colours which fit in with the rest of the uniform. They've also developed a smaller head covering that can fit under ballistic helmets so Sikhs are able to be a part of riot teams.

Ok, I was just going to make mention of people over here in Cityrail (or whatever they are changing the name to) wearing turbans that match the uniforms, and how I think I said that last time the excat same thread came up.

But...turbans that work as well as helmets? Really? I don't see how that would work, but that's awesome.

I don't think they're actually as good as riot helmets (hence why they use an alternative that can be worn inside the helmet for that kind of work), but I think they're laced with the material in stab vests or something and offer improved protection because of it.
Anyhow, they're tougher than both normal turbans and the caps police often wear.

OneCatch :

Danyal:
So the highschool I attended in the past has always banned headgear. But now Muslim girls are attending the school, and they want to wear their headscarves. So the school has decided to allow headgear - but only if you have religious reasons.

I think this is unjustified discrimination. Why aren't atheists allowed to wear headgear, but are you allowed to put on your head whatever your like if God said it?

An atheist cannot wear this...
[snip]

But if the Flying Spaghetti Monster commands me to dress like a pirate, I'm allowed to wear this:
[snip]

It seems way more logical and way less discriminatory, to allow....
-headgear that leaves the face properly visible and doesn't hinder the view of students behind you
...or...
-no headgear

What do you think?

Also relevant:
http://www.geekologie.com/2011/07/pastafarian-granted-right-to-wear-religi.php

Equality before the law is probably forever inattainable. It is a noble ideal, but it can never be realized, for what men value in this world is not rights but privileges.
-H.L. Mencken

Moral philosophers have defined discrimination as disadvantageous treatment or consideration. This is a comparative definition. An individual need not be actually harmed in order to be discriminated against. He or she just needs to be treated worse than others for some arbitrary reason. If someone decides to donate to help orphan children, but decides to donate less, say, to black children out of a racist attitude, he or she will be acting in a discriminatory way even if he or she actually benefits the people he discriminates against by donating some money to them.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination

I think you've either got to allow all religious memorabilia or ban all of it. So if you're going to allow headscarves, you also have to allow crucifixes and Sikh daggers. Or conversely, if you're going to ban the Burqua, you also have to ban a nun's headgear, or Orthodox Jewish dress.
However, since it isn't a tenant of an atheist's faith to wear a cap, that doesn't count, the same way that a System of a Down T-shirt isn't a religious item. Bear in mind I'm both an atheist and a System fan!

I also think you have to use a degree of 'common sense' (I hate using that phrase because it makes me sound like I'm from the fucking Daily Mail) to deal with potential conflicts. A school banning the headscarf would de facto prevent a lot of Muslim kids from going to school, which I think would be wrong.
But you can compromise, and say that while headscarves are fine, they should be neutral in colour, and that the rest of the school uniform should be worn as normal, and kids can also choose to wear a crucifix or a turban if they so please. That way, you aren't giving any one faith special privilege, but you're accommodating needs.

Another example is the UK police. There was a stink up a few years ago because Sikh police officers wanted to be allowed to wear the Turban, which was officially against uniform regulations. The solution? They developed a particular type of turban that offered similar protective qualities as a helmet, and in colours which fit in with the rest of the uniform. They've also developed a smaller head covering that can fit under ballistic helmets so Sikhs are able to be a part of riot teams.

It's about balance - you obviously can't allow religion to dictate things to the extent that it causes harm , but that doesn't mean you have to gratuitously ban stuff because it's linked to a religious belief.

The amount of resources and time spent on this kind of ridiculousness is down right comical in my opinion.

Those people dont have a disability, nothing warrants to accommodate their ridiculous/cultural beliefs in that fashion.

There was this huge story in Poland where a Sikh didn't want to take of his turban at airport-security. How much ridiculousness are we going to accommodate?
This isn't my slippery-slope argument of the day by the way, because we are half way down the slope already.

The whole problem isn't if atheists are discriminated against by not being allowed to wear caps with the A on it.

In essence the school made a rule:
- No headgear

Religion then got to dictate the exception:
- Only headgear if you have a religious reason

The problem i have with this is the presumption that somehow "religious reason" (read for the glory of my invisible, unproven, imaginary god) is a better reason than "i like turbans/caps/bandanas".

Its the very definition of special pleading.

I don't care how "serious" a religious person takes these tenets of wearing religious headgear, it can't be ascertained in the first place, because its personal.
If one reason is personal and the other is too, how is one "better" or "more valid a reason" than the other?

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