"You're white. That's unfair."

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With the tagline "It's hard to see racism when you're white," the campaign will heighten attention to white privilege and encourage dialogue through posters, billboards, the campaign's website, public workshops, guest speakers, community reads, films, and facilitated discussions.

Sincerely,
Chancellor Lendley (Lynn) Black

http://blog.lib.umn.edu/chan/umdnews/2012/01/unfair-campaign.html

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http://www.d.umn.edu/external-affairs/homepage/12/unfair.html

YouTube comments

This is racist. Disgusting. I'm not even white..
adgw1423

Well geesh, the chinese set up society for the chinese. I didn't realize whites were supposed to set up society for everyone else. when did it become our job to neglect ourselves and only help out everyone else?
Standonarock

Why is it the only solution to any injustice in this world is to try to cancel it out with another injustice? "Black people have expoerienced raciam? Let's be racist against whites! Women have been downtrodden in the past? Let's downtread men!" It doesn't work. All you get is a double dose of injustice.
benthejrporter

So, what do you think about this campaign?

My own opinion:

It's funny to state that it's hard to see racism when you're white. Because...

Racism is the belief that different characteristics in racial groups justify discrimination.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

Discrimination is the prejudicial treatment of an individual based on their membership - or perceived membership - in a certain group or category.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination

The word prejudice (or foredeeming) is most often used to refer to preconceived judgments toward people or a person because of gender, social class, age, disability, religion, sexuality, race/ethnicity, nationality or other personal characteristics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prejudice

Judging people from one specific race as lacking something (for example, the ability to spot racism) is in itself racist. But it's hard to see racism when you direct it against white people.

Honestly, it's pointless. You can pretty much split white people into 2 categories; those who accept this and those who don't. Those who already accept this as fact don't really need to be told about it and those who don't (or won't) will argue that you're just making a big deal out of nothing.

At it's heart its a good thing but it's just one of those things that people just don't see as a big enough problem to warrant caring about.

Pretty amusing as I imagine the university's PR people are just about crapping themselves with fear right now.

As for the video, it's fairly pointless. I wouldn't be at all offended if someone singled me out due to being white unless there was the threat of actual physical harm. Being called white doesn't have exactly the same negative connotations as most other racial insults.

You know, everything in that video is true. Being able to walk into a room and people not noticing my race first is a privilege and something that I have taken for granted. Honestly, it is the little things like that that we don't notice.

Whoa I totally thought that this video was saying that being privileged was unfair to white people the first time through and then I realized they were saying it's unfair to everyone else that white people are privileged,(I'm pretty sure that's the point; someone please correct if I'm mistaken, I'm a little tired right now) so nothing is inherently wrong with saying that, but there isn't really anything new being said either.

Danyal:
Judging people from one specific race as lacking something (for example, the ability to spot racism) is in itself racist. But it's hard to see racism when you direct it against white people.

*headdesk*

Ok, I knew from the title of the thread that you'd decide to totally miss the point yet again, but FFS.

Saying that people benefitting from racism tend not to see racism isn't racist. Yeah, it might make you uncomfortable to have the elephant in the room pointed out, but that's it.

But, let's pretend for a moment that this somehow is racist...this is the racism you're worried about? Sure, it let's you cry "both sides do it!!!!" for a vague and undefined value of "it", which is always popular, but don't expect to be taken seriously be people not doing that.

Karma168:
Honestly, it's pointless. You can pretty much split white people into 2 categories; those who accept this and those who don't. Those who already accept this as fact don't really need to be told about it and those who don't (or won't) will argue that you're just making a big deal out of nothing.

At it's heart its a good thing but it's just one of those things that people just don't see as a big enough problem to warrant caring about.

Eh, true that. I know full well that this thread isn't going to accomplish anything, but for some reason I retain my blind faith in reason and keep hoping people will actually want to do more than pay lip service to caring about inequality.

Danyal:

Judging people from one specific race as lacking something (for example, the ability to spot racism) is in itself racist. But it's hard to see racism when you direct it against white people.

Same old tedious, tedious shit.

American whites having more trouble spotting racism is not an inherent racial characteristic of being white, it's the result of cultural factors: being in a white majority and white-dominated society.

There are two very simple and obvious way many or most humans think to some degree, intrinsic to their perception of the world. Firstly, it's harder for them to notice what they don't experience. Secondly, they are more inclined to notice and remember the slights and sufferings dealt to them, less so others dependent on emotional distance.

They then compound this with the inherent assumption that they see the world as it really is, have all the facts and are immune to cognitive biases. They usually continue thinking they are immune even when you dump a load of research under their nose telling them about such cognitive biases. "Oh, it's just other people who suffer from them." "I believe in Ayn Rand, which means I am rational."

I like bringing up the US study which showed that job applicants with stereotypically black names were far more likely to have their (otherwise identical) CVs rejected. In my time on these forums, it's amazing how little the (predominantly white) user base responds with opprobrium or disquiet about this, or frankly even remembers by the time the next racism thread rolls round. The issue is diminished, explained away ideologically, or whatever else. Then many of the same people blow a fucking gasket in outrage when a video says perhaps they don't take much notice of racism.

So yes. It is very easy to notice racism when it affects you. And it is very easy to not notice when it doesn't. And in our Western societies, whites simply aren't getting the bulk of the discrimination. But when something a bit touchy does come along, they sure as hell notice and whine like fuck as if they did get the bulk of discrimination.

At first i thought this was all about affirmative action and i was going to write an argument against that idea. However after watching the video and checking the links it's all about raising awareness for how white people are socially privileged because to be white is the social norm.

I don't have any problems with the campaigns message- To be white is perceived as normal, making white people privileged on that basis, therefore to counter this we should do away with prejudice against other races by removing all mental conceptions of them being "other". I think it's a perfectly fine idea, but i just don't think it can work in reality.

The way humans think is by making making observations and from those observations drawing generalisations as to how the world works. We make repeated observations that grey clouds leads to rain, therefore we expect it to rain when the clouds are thick and grey. In that sense we are prejudice against grey clouds. Applying this to race- many of us living in the West make repeated observations of the people around us being white, therefore we assume that before we meet someone they too will be white. When it turns out that they are not white we mentally categorise them as an "other" or an anomaly, and i think this easily leads to negative thoughts towards that person, even if they are unconscious.

The problem is that humans readily discriminate against those deemed as "other"- not just in racial situations. I think it's a prehistoric, tribal way of thinking which we may have evolved to reinforce the integrity of tribal groups- the membership of such groups being needed for our survival. It's an example of stone age thinking causing problems in a very post-stone age world. To remove prejudice against racial groups, you will essentially need to create a society were there are no racial majorities, and therefore no presumed racial norm.

I'm supportive of any campaign aimed at combating prejudice against racial minorities. I'm just sceptical that their aims can be fully realised if whites are the racial majority. That's not to say you shouldn't try though.

captcha: pipe Dream

While I agree with what it said, I don't think that ad was either effective nor appropriate. Not only was it incredibly patronising but it didn't even provide evidence or examples of the privelege they keep insisting on. Again, I know that white people are priveleged. However, that ad was so shit it seemed like it was satirising the position it was actually trying to support.

And yes, these ads are racist. Although it's true that many whites are indeed oblivious to (or in denial of) racism, a slogan like "it's hard to see racism when you're white" IS racist. It generalises an entire race. I'm white and I don't find it hard to see racism. They could have said "Sometimes being white makes it hard to see racism". Instead they chose the most antagonistic wording they could find. Did they think this would generate sympathy for their cause, or do anything other than reinforce some people's beliefs that racism is skewed against whites? Just... fucking hell, how dumb can you get.

Nickolai77:
At first i thought this was all about affirmative action and i was going to write an argument against that idea. However after watching the video and checking the links it's all about raising awareness for how white people are socially privileged because to be white is the social norm.

I don't have any problems with the campaigns message- To be white is perceived as normal, making white people privileged on that basis, therefore to counter this we should do away with prejudice against other races by removing all mental conceptions of them being "other". I think it's a perfectly fine idea, but i just don't think it can work in reality.

The way humans think is by making making observations and from those observations drawing generalisations as to how the world works. We make repeated observations that grey clouds leads to rain, therefore we expect it to rain when the clouds are thick and grey. In that sense we are prejudice against grey clouds. Applying this to race- many of us living in the West make repeated observations of the people around us being white, therefore we assume that before we meet someone they too will be white. When it turns out that they are not white we mentally categorise them as an "other" or an anomaly, and i think this easily leads to negative thoughts towards that person, even if they are unconscious.

The problem is that humans readily discriminate against those deemed as "other"- not just in racial situations. I think it's a prehistoric, tribal way of thinking which we may have evolved to reinforce the integrity of tribal groups- the membership of such groups being needed for our survival. It's an example of stone age thinking causing problems in a very post-stone age world. To remove prejudice against racial groups, you will essentially need to create a society were there are no racial majorities, and therefore no presumed racial norm.

I'm supportive of any campaign aimed at combating prejudice against racial minorities. I'm just sceptical that their aims can be fully realised if whites are the racial majority. That's not to say you shouldn't try though.

I don't agree that it can't be prevented. A hundred or so years ago, people of Irish descent were held in contempt by society at large, but nowdays that's almost been forgotten.

There's no particular reason why people should be seen as different due to the colour of their skin.

(Mind you, following that line of thought, people will be likely to find some new and exciting way to differentiate themselves from others instead of race, and we've have a new -ism to persecute people with)

thaluikhain:
I don't agree that it can't be prevented. A hundred or so years ago, people of Irish descent were held in contempt by society at large, but nowdays that's almost been forgotten.

There's no particular reason why people should be seen as different due to the colour of their skin.

Nickolai77:
The problem is that humans readily discriminate against those deemed as "other"- not just in racial situations. I think it's a prehistoric, tribal way of thinking which we may have evolved to reinforce the integrity of tribal groups- the membership of such groups being needed for our survival. It's an example of stone age thinking causing problems in a very post-stone age world. To remove prejudice against racial groups, you will essentially need to create a society were there are no racial majorities, and therefore no presumed racial norm.

It's indeed a prehistoric, tribal way of thinking. Just like jealousy when you're partner has sex with other people, or our desire to eat as much as possible.

How would prejudice against racial groups be removed if there are no racial majorities? Seriously? The best way to prevent religious wars is not to put two or three equally big religious factions in one country.

A recent study that I can't find back (don't blame me, nobody has linked to a scientific study here) showed that anyone automatically fears other races. It's not racial majorities versus racial minorities. It's not white versus black. It's every racial group versus every other racial group. To point that out is not racist. To claim that it's hard to see racism when you're white is racist.

Racism is not racist, it affects everyone.

Danyal:
A recent study that I can't find back (don't blame me, nobody has linked to a scientific study here) showed that anyone automatically fears other races. It's not racial majorities versus racial minorities. It's not white versus black. It's every racial group versus every other racial group. To point that out is not racist. To claim that it's hard to see racism when you're white is racist.

Yes, yes, you can ignore the point and say "both sides do it" loudly and persistantly, therefore we should ignore the problem.

Danyal:
Racism is not racist, it affects everyone.

That's nice. You might have noticed, however, that as things stand, it does not affect everyone to the same extent, it affects some ethnic groups disproportionately. We have a word for that.

I don't even try anymore. I call out "X" College Funds, or "X" Pride Parades (which is bad because a white one would cause a riot). Affirmative Action.... its all racist. I shouldn't have to work harder than a minority to get the same treatment.

But I can't say that because it would be racist... somehow. Because I don't support racial inequality. After all I owned slaves, killed Mexicans, and shunned women... oh wait I didn't. Yet I'm being forced to apologize for it. And they hold their heads high and talk about being above racism.

Hell its even in our commercials

Picture the roles reverse and have the woman in there dipping the kid in white paint. Womens Rights Activist would go nuts.

-shakes head- sorry for the broken up post... whole thing just pisses me off. And the worst part of it is that I have been told the exact opposite all my life that I'm not even sure if I'm right.

Zack Alklazaris:
I don't even try anymore. I call out "X" College Funds, or "X" Pride Parades (which is bad because a white one would cause a riot). Affirmative Action.... its all racist. I shouldn't have to work harder than a minority to get the same treatment.

And they shouldn't have to work harder than you do to get the same treatment, which is what Affirmative action is supposed to prevent.

Now, there's any number of problems with the implementation (notably, it deals with one (admittedly serious) issue, while others aren't addressed the same way), but the concept isn't automatically wrong.

thaluikhain:

Zack Alklazaris:
I don't even try anymore. I call out "X" College Funds, or "X" Pride Parades (which is bad because a white one would cause a riot). Affirmative Action.... its all racist. I shouldn't have to work harder than a minority to get the same treatment.

And they shouldn't have to work harder than you do to get the same treatment, which is what Affirmative action is supposed to prevent.

Now, there's any number of problems with the implementation (notably, it deals with one (admittedly serious) issue, while others aren't addressed the same way), but the concept isn't automatically wrong.

It just seems like a lot of places are trying to fill a quota of minorities. Like they have to take them. Lets take college for example:

Shouldn't it be about grades, academic subjects enlisted, community programs, etc? If a black and a white kid are applying to the same school. They have the same credentials, went to the same school, same grades, etc. The odds should be 50/50. However, it seems with affirmative actions the black kid is worth more to the university. Because not only does he have the same credentials the white kid has, but he's a minority which makes the college look good.

Just seems wrong.

Zack Alklazaris:
It just seems like a lot of places are trying to fill a quota of minorities. Like they have to take them. Lets take college for example:

Shouldn't it be about grades, academic subjects enlisted, community programs, etc? If a black and a white kid are applying to the same school. They have the same credentials, went to the same school, same grades, etc. The odds should be 50/50. However, it seems with affirmative actions the black kid is worth more to the university. Because not only does he have the same credentials the white kid has, but he's a minority which makes the college look good.

Just seems wrong.

All else being equal, yes, it should be based on scores. But that system was put in place because all else in society tends not to be equal.

It's not a great solution, by any standard. However, it is a solution to an actual and serious problem. It doesn't matter how flawed it is, it just has to be less flawed then the possible alternative solutions, or to ignoring the problem.

Oh yes I was certainly privilaged in grades 4-6 in a class predominantly made up of metis. I never made any racist remarks, or confront them about anything other than when they blasted their rap music. They had singled out me and this other white kid for their bullying. "It's hard to see racism when you're white" fuck you and the horse you rode in on, having a light skin pigment doesn't make you immune to racism.

Zack Alklazaris:
"X" Pride Parades (which is bad because a white one would cause a riot).

Yes, because "white pride" has an extremely negative connotation, and more importantly means something ENTIRELY different to black pride.

Take it away, Zinnia.

The idea of the majority, the "norm" holding a pride parade is like having an eastern culture club that talks exclusively about west-coast rap - kinda missing the point. Or, as ZJ put it:

The real "straight pride parade" is something that goes on every day. We just don't often notice it because it's practically everywhere. You can see it whenever people don't have that little expression of surprise when they find out someone is straight, and when they don't start acting differently around straight people once they know about it. You see it when straight people can have access to a marriage license anywhere, without having to engage in a decades-long campaign for their relationships to be legally recognized.

You see it when straight teenagers never have to hide it, because they're universally accepted for who they are, without being told it's just a "phase" or getting sent to "reparative therapy" to cure them of their sexuality. You see it every time churches celebrate straight people and their relationships instead of reviling them. You see it when straight teachers and coaches and scout leaders aren't considered a threat to children because of their sexuality. And you can see it when your family doesn't try to keep it a secret that you're straight.

That is the straight pride parade, and it's happening all the time. You just have to pay attention. And gay people would really like to be a part of that, because there's no reason why all this should be the exclusive province of straight people. But until that's possible, there's a reason why we have our own parades.

Replace straight with white and gay with black.

Your complaints about affirmative action and quotas and whatnot are not uncommon. They also miss the point. The fact is, there is a very real racial gap in America. Blacks are disproportionately underrepresented in universities, in high-paying jobs, in executive positions, in government positions, and the like. They're more likely to be on welfare, more likely to need assistence, more likely to get arrested, more likely to be in prison, etc. As there are no genetic factors available to account for this discrepancy, but a myriad of social factors. The two most important ones, and the ones that affirmative action attacks best, are:
1. Continued Racism. It's a simple fact of reality that prejudices are still active, and will often work against black people. These may be simple subconscious impulses, that you're never really aware of, but they can make a very big difference when you're deciding "hmmm.... Do I hire this guy or that guy?"
2. Self-perpetuating economic issues. Many, many black families have spent every generation since the civil war in heavy poverty. Climbing the social ladder can be extremely difficult, especially if you grow up in poverty as a minority. Helping those especially stuck climb the social ladder is a goal that helps everyone involved.

Blatherscythe:
Oh yes I was certainly privilaged in grades 4-6 in a class predominantly made up of metis. I never made any racist remarks, or confront them about anything other than when they blasted their rap music. They had singled out me and this other white kid for their bullying. "It's hard to see racism when you're white" fuck you and the horse you rode in on, having a light skin pigment doesn't make you immune to racism.

I love how people are capable of seeing past their own lives and experiences and understanding trends. Aren't you?

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Found this relevant...

What's there to say? Among certain people who are not white, there are some really strange about racism. For instance about how fictional racism against them is a real problem, while real racism against whites is supposedly not a problem.

Stagnant's comic which plays on the past as a justification for racism today is a good example to that.

Ooh, and here comes Godwin, because do you remember how the nazi propaganda claimed 'the Jews' had stolen the wealth of others in the past as a justification for their racism? Same thing as what proponents of anti-white racism are doing.

Stagnant:
I love how people are capable of seeing past their own lives and experiences and understanding trends. Aren't you?

So you're basically saying that because you hold a largely fictional image of a group being disadvantaged, all people of a certain race lie when they speak of their experiences of being discriminated against?

Whether you meant to come across as that or that, it's incorrect, immoral and offensive.

thaluikhain:

Zack Alklazaris:
It just seems like a lot of places are trying to fill a quota of minorities. Like they have to take them. Lets take college for example:

Shouldn't it be about grades, academic subjects enlisted, community programs, etc? If a black and a white kid are applying to the same school. They have the same credentials, went to the same school, same grades, etc. The odds should be 50/50. However, it seems with affirmative actions the black kid is worth more to the university. Because not only does he have the same credentials the white kid has, but he's a minority which makes the college look good.

Just seems wrong.

All else being equal, yes, it should be based on scores. But that system was put in place because all else in society tends not to be equal.

It's not a great solution, by any standard. However, it is a solution to an actual and serious problem. It doesn't matter how flawed it is, it just has to be less flawed then the possible alternative solutions, or to ignoring the problem.

That I can agree with. Thank you everyone for clearing that up without jumping down my throat.

Blablahb:
Stagnant's comic which plays on the past as a justification for racism today is a good example to that.

Hey buddy? John Rawls isn't exactly what we would call "radically new" any more. Might wanna, you know, look into him.

Ooh, and here comes Godwin, because do you remember how the nazi propaganda claimed 'the Jews' had stolen the wealth of others in the past as a justification for their racism? Same thing as what proponents of anti-white racism are doing.

Do you know why it is often claim that he who invokes godwin loses the argument by default? Because almost nobody ever uses it appropriately. Case in point: you are comparing a set of laws voted in by the majority to benefit and assist the socially poor minority to a set of laws voted in by the majority to oppress, divide, and ultimately dehumanize and kill an integrated minority. Another key difference: the Jews never enslaved the Germans. There was never entire industries that made a lot of Jews incredibly rich based around the fact that they owned Germans as property and used them like animals.

So you're basically saying that because you hold a largely fictional image of a group being disadvantaged, all people of a certain race lie when they speak of their experiences of being discriminated against?

...Noooo... Try again. Keep in mind that I was responding to a person who complained about being bullied by minorities in middle school, and used that as a justification to claim "racism? What racism?". And fictional? Okay, how do you explain the achievement gaps present in the USA between the races?

Whether you meant to come across as that or that, it's incorrect, immoral and offensive.

Well maybe you should learn to read better.

Stagnant:
Case in point: you are comparing a set of laws voted in by the majority to benefit and assist the socially poor minority to a set of laws voted in by the majority to oppress, divide, and ultimately dehumanize and kill an integrated minority.

Because of course 'numbers' decide whether you're right or wrong.

Minority Births Are New Majority

For the first time in U.S. history, whites of European ancestry account for less than half of newborn children, marking a demographic tipping point that is already changing the nation's politics, economy and workforce.

Among the roughly four million children born in the U.S. between July 2010 and July 2011, 50.4% belonged to a racial or ethnic group that in previous generations would have classified them as minorities, up from 48.6% in the same period two years earlier, the Census Bureau said Thursday.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303879604577408363003351818.html

Hurray! White American children are a minority too now!

Stagnant:
Another key difference: the Jews never enslaved the Germans. There was never entire industries that made a lot of Jews incredibly rich based around the fact that they owned Germans as property and used them like animals.

So whites deserve being discriminated against because they are responsible for slavery?

My family's history has been one of poor farmers. In contrast to black Africans who enslaved and sold their fellow Africans to white Europeans, my ancestors never profited from slavery.

1. The chance of becoming enslaved in Africa was just as big during the 16/17/18th century as dying because of car accidents in modern day America
2. Before slavery, African tribes killed each other. During slavery, African tribes enslaved each other.

Blablahb:
Ooh, and here comes Godwin, because do you remember how the nazi propaganda claimed 'the Jews' had stolen the wealth of others in the past as a justification for their racism? Same thing as what proponents of anti-white racism are doing.

There's one major difference. Historically, we can PROVE that white folks murdered native Americans and stole their land, enslaved black people, and worked Chinese people like rented mules to build railroads. That's a long way from deranged rumors about well-poisoning and killing Christian babies to make matzohs from their blood.

Oh, and the US has a very long-running, very successful terrorist group devoted to keeping blacks as poor as possible: The Ku Klux Klan. They didn't get defanged until the last generation, and they're still out there.

Danyal:

My family's history has been one of poor farmers. In contrast to black Africans who enslaved and sold their fellow Africans to white Europeans, my ancestors never profited from slavery.

1. The chance of becoming enslaved in Africa was just as big during the 16/17/18th century as dying because of car accidents in modern day America
2. Before slavery, African tribes killed each other. During slavery, African tribes enslaved each other.

The buyer is just as guilty as the seller. This country was built on the backs of black people, they deserve a share of what they built.

I haven't even watched the video and it's already making me feel uncomfortable, whether for the right or wrong reasons.

Look, subconscious racism, sexism...just discrimination of any kind isn't going to go away, because it's embedded into our human nature. Even the guy who claims that he's supportive of gay rights is probably going to feel a bit awkward if he's in a room with two gay men kissing each other, because it's something you don't see every day. Sometimes, people can't help having the thoughts that they have.

Discrimination against Irish people has gone down now, but homophobia still runs high. Even if that goes down, we'll just jump onto another minority or otherwise perceived "inferior" to pick on. People with dyed hair? Anime lovers? Conscious machines? Buddhists?

It sucks, but that's life. We can be as jealous as we want at the white, middle-class, heterosexual man, but maybe he has something different in him that you just don't know about because you've never met the guy. Maybe he's got Aspergers'. Maybe he's impotent. And the supposedly oppressed black lady down the street? Maybe she's perfectly happy with her life, happier than that white guy, and her employer didn't stereotype her on the job application because now she's the chief supervisor.

So yeah. Shit happens. Humans suck. Uncontrollable and subconscious human nature sucks. Society sucks. You've just got to find a way with dealing with it and stop crying over spilled milk.

Danyal:
Because of course 'numbers' decide whether you're right or wrong.

Minority Births Are New Majority

For the first time in U.S. history, whites of European ancestry account for less than half of newborn children, marking a demographic tipping point that is already changing the nation's politics, economy and workforce.

Among the roughly four million children born in the U.S. between July 2010 and July 2011, 50.4% belonged to a racial or ethnic group that in previous generations would have classified them as minorities, up from 48.6% in the same period two years earlier, the Census Bureau said Thursday.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303879604577408363003351818.html

Hurray! White American children are a minority too now!

Two problems.

1. It's not White vs. Non-White, it's White vs. Black vs. Hispanic vs. etc. And whites are still the largest demographic by far.
2. Hit me up when those "minorities" become adults. Then you might have an argument.

So whites deserve being discriminated against because they are responsible for slavery?

Jesus fucking christ, do you people do this on purpose, or are you really just that bad at understanding things?

All right. Let's run this one through again.

Affirmative action is necessary because of both existing, modern racism, and the echoes of slavery that we still feel today. The extreme rates of black poverty, the achievement gaps, et cetera. Almost all of that can be traced back to the fact that up until the 1860s, black people were not treated as "people", and up until the 1960s, they were subjugated as second-class citizens. Furthermore, I reject the notion that extending assistance to those in need is "discrimination" just because white people don't get it too.

1. The chance of becoming enslaved in Africa was just as big during the 16/17/18th century as dying because of car accidents in modern day America
2. Before slavery, African tribes killed each other. During slavery, African tribes enslaved each other.

How is any of this relevant at all?

Blablahb:

Stagnant:
I love how people are capable of seeing past their own lives and experiences and understanding trends. Aren't you?

So you're basically saying that because you hold a largely fictional image of a group being disadvantaged, all people of a certain race lie when they speak of their experiences of being discriminated against?

No, he's basically saying that people who have limited capability to see past their own life and experience have problems recognising and understanding how life and experience may be different for others.

Like describing other people's disadvantages as "fictional", probably for no better reason than because they didn't happen to you, so they doesn't happen to anyone then. (Q.E.D.!)

arbane:
There's one major difference. Historically, we can PROVE that white folks murdered native Americans and stole their land, enslaved black people, and worked Chinese people like rented mules to build railroads. That's a long way from deranged rumors about well-poisoning and killing Christian babies to make matzohs from their blood.

Oh so we're really the bad guys? Except for the fact that the video was posted online, where, you know, everyone can see it? Americans =/= All whites. European here. In the ten centuries before the abolition of slavery, none of my ancestors has even seen a colored person! We were poor farmers and had nothing to do with slavery or colonization.

arbane:
Oh, and the US has a very long-running, very successful terrorist group devoted to keeping blacks as poor as possible: The Ku Klux Klan. They didn't get defanged until the last generation, and they're still out there.

Muslims Al-Qaeda not everyone is responsible it has no use explaining it anyway.

Danyal:
The buyer is just as guilty as the seller. This country was built on the backs of black people, they deserve a share of what they built.

And thus all whites should feel guilty and positively discriminate non-whites.

Relish in Chaos:
Look, subconscious racism, sexism...just discrimination of any kind isn't going to go away, because it's embedded into our human nature. Even the guy who claims that he's supportive of gay rights is probably going to feel a bit awkward if he's in a room with two gay men kissing each other, because it's something you don't see every day. Sometimes, people can't help having the thoughts that they have.

Discrimination against Irish people has gone down now, but homophobia still runs high. Even if that goes down, we'll just jump onto another minority or otherwise perceived "inferior" to pick on. People with dyed hair? Anime lovers? Conscious machines? Buddhists?

It sucks, but that's life. We can be as jealous as we want at the white, middle-class, heterosexual man, but maybe he has something different in him that you just don't know about because you've never met the guy. Maybe he's got Aspergers'. Maybe he's impotent. And the supposedly oppressed black lady down the street? Maybe she's perfectly happy with her life, happier than that white guy, and her employer didn't stereotype her on the job application because now she's the chief supervisor.

So yeah. Shit happens. Humans suck. Uncontrollable and subconscious human nature sucks. Society sucks. You've just got to find a way with dealing with it and stop crying over spilled milk.

So, because a problem is complicated and difficult to deal with, we should try to ignore it?

Yes, discrimination can never be eradicated, but it can be reduced. It's existence is a constant, but not its severity.

Stagnant:
Affirmative action is necessary because of both existing, modern racism, and the echoes of slavery that we still feel today. The extreme rates of black poverty, the achievement gaps, et cetera. Almost all of that can be traced back to the fact that up until the 1860s, black people were not treated as "people", and up until the 1960s, they were subjugated as second-class citizens. Furthermore, I reject the notion that extending assistance to those in need is "discrimination" just because white people don't get it too.

Not helping a certain group because of their skin color IS racist and discriminatory! It isn't non-racist because you mean it well!

If black people are more often poorer than white people, just help poor people. It will end up mostly at black people. If you're going to treat races differently because of history and slavery and stuff... Yeah, that's racist!

thaluikhain:

Relish in Chaos:
Look, subconscious racism, sexism...just discrimination of any kind isn't going to go away, because it's embedded into our human nature. Even the guy who claims that he's supportive of gay rights is probably going to feel a bit awkward if he's in a room with two gay men kissing each other, because it's something you don't see every day. Sometimes, people can't help having the thoughts that they have.

Discrimination against Irish people has gone down now, but homophobia still runs high. Even if that goes down, we'll just jump onto another minority or otherwise perceived "inferior" to pick on. People with dyed hair? Anime lovers? Conscious machines? Buddhists?

It sucks, but that's life. We can be as jealous as we want at the white, middle-class, heterosexual man, but maybe he has something different in him that you just don't know about because you've never met the guy. Maybe he's got Aspergers'. Maybe he's impotent. And the supposedly oppressed black lady down the street? Maybe she's perfectly happy with her life, happier than that white guy, and her employer didn't stereotype her on the job application because now she's the chief supervisor.

So yeah. Shit happens. Humans suck. Uncontrollable and subconscious human nature sucks. Society sucks. You've just got to find a way with dealing with it and stop crying over spilled milk.

So, because a problem is complicated and difficult to deal with, we should try to ignore it?

Yes, discrimination can never be eradicated, but it can be reduced. It's existence is a constant, but not its severity.

That's not what I meant, although I'd argue that many people do think discrimination can be eradicated through campaigns like this, or advocate discrimination against white people to "even the scales".

I'm just saying, all this stuff seems pretty futile.

It always feels a little useless discussing racism because people who don't see it most likely won't because it shakes the foundation of their world view. Doctor's in yem olden times refused to accept washing their hands might stop infant mortality rates, even though you could see the difference in midwife births, because it would mmean that they had killed all those kids by not washing their hands.

With racism, to realize that even though you may be poor or unemployed, that a disproportionate amount of minority people are in that boat can have psychological effects. (If i was on a real computer i'd love to dig up some of the articles I read on this stuff.)

And any privilege is hard to notice when you hold it. Try looking up the study "Heads i win, Tails it's chance." Basically when things work out in your favor you tend to believe it is because you have some innate skill even if it is something as purely chance as guessing coin flips.

Danyal:

Stagnant:
Affirmative action is necessary because of both existing, modern racism, and the echoes of slavery that we still feel today. The extreme rates of black poverty, the achievement gaps, et cetera. Almost all of that can be traced back to the fact that up until the 1860s, black people were not treated as "people", and up until the 1960s, they were subjugated as second-class citizens. Furthermore, I reject the notion that extending assistance to those in need is "discrimination" just because white people don't get it too.

Not helping a certain group because of their skin color IS racist and discriminatory! It isn't non-racist because you mean it well!

If black people are more often poorer than white people, just help poor people. It will end up mostly at black people. If you're going to treat races differently because of history and slavery and stuff... Yeah, that's racist!

I'm going to give you the same advice I gave blahb. Look up John Rawls, and what his veil of ignorance has to say about positive discrimination towards those worse off. Just helping the poor would be nice, but it's just not that simple - we're also dealing with racism on a subconscious level, which has a very real and very serious impact.

Relish in Chaos:
I haven't even watched the video and it's already making me feel uncomfortable, whether for the right or wrong reasons.

Look, subconscious racism, sexism...just discrimination of any kind isn't going to go away, because it's embedded into our human nature. Even the guy who claims that he's supportive of gay rights is probably going to feel a bit awkward if he's in a room with two gay men kissing each other, because it's something you don't see every day. Sometimes, people can't help having the thoughts that they have.

Discrimination against Irish people has gone down now, but homophobia still runs high. Even if that goes down, we'll just jump onto another minority or otherwise perceived "inferior" to pick on. People with dyed hair? Anime lovers? Conscious machines? Buddhists?

It sucks, but that's life. We can be as jealous as we want at the white, middle-class, heterosexual man, but maybe he has something different in him that you just don't know about because you've never met the guy. Maybe he's got Aspergers'. Maybe he's impotent. And the supposedly oppressed black lady down the street? Maybe she's perfectly happy with her life, happier than that white guy, and her employer didn't stereotype her on the job application because now she's the chief supervisor.

So yeah. Shit happens. Humans suck. Uncontrollable and subconscious human nature sucks. Society sucks. You've just got to find a way with dealing with it and stop crying over spilled milk.

I don't agree. "Nothing in this world seems to be as natural to an oppressor as oppression." Making people NOTICE bigotry is the first step towards making it less socially acceptable. And if that makes my overprivileged white ass squirm in my seat occasionally, I CAN DEAL WITH IT.

So to quote you, yeah, shit happens. We may never be able to make a perfect world, but we can certainly make a better one, if we stop being 'satisfied' with the one we've got - and I'll point out that as a straight white guy (I lack only 'married', 'rich' and 'Christian' to be one of the Rightful Overlords of the Cosmos, according to the Conservatives), it is a HELL of a lot easier for me to be satisfied with what we have now than it is for the people lower on the Great Chain of Being(tm).

Danyal:
Not helping a certain group because of their skin color IS racist and discriminatory! It isn't non-racist because you mean it well!

If black people are more often poorer than white people, just help poor people. It will end up mostly at black people. If you're going to treat races differently because of history and slavery and stuff... Yeah, that's racist!

Problems of race often overlap with problems of class, yes, but they aren't teh same thing.

Of ourse, that's not to say lass issues shouldn't be dealt with as well, just that they don't invalidate race issues.

Secondly, you are pretending that affirmative action is a reaction to "slavery and history and stuff", that racism isn't currently a big issue now. That's utter bullshit.

Relish in Chaos:
I'm just saying, all this stuff seems pretty futile.

Why? The problem is large, yes, but it can be made to be less large. There has been massive improvements over the last few decades, no reason to stop trying to improve things.

Well geesh, the chinese set up society for the chinese. I didn't realize whites were supposed to set up society for everyone else. when did it become our job to neglect ourselves and only help out everyone else?
Standonarock

...

Well, figures the racists would pop out of the woodwork for this.

Danyal:

Judging people from one specific race as lacking something (for example, the ability to spot racism) is in itself racist. But it's hard to see racism when you direct it against white people.

Erm, they're not judging white people to be lacking something, unless you count being the victim as often as something. The idea is that the victims of racism are the ones who are most likely to see it and white people aren't the victims as often as other races.

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