Circumcision outlawed in Germany!

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Muspelheim:

Cakes:
The idea that this would have any real impact on circumcision in the Jewish community is laughable. All the gruesome punishments the ancient world could come up with didn't stop Jews from being Jews, I doubt whatever a modern court decides is going to stop us.

I don't think it's part of some sort of sinister plan to punish or destroy Jews, since the only thing outlawed is cirumcising babies. You can still get a circumcision, the only difference is that it'll have to wait until you're old enough to decide yourself. It sounds like an alright deal to me.

As I've said: the important thing is that the foreskin goes off, as that's the sign of the deal they signed with God. And he's supposed to be a fairly understanding deity, and has been along for a very, very long time, and a child growing up to that age is probably not any time at all from his perspective, so I can't imagine him raising a fuss about it. Sure, purity is important, but German children live in a very hygienic age and place, surely that'll do in the meanwhile?

No, it won't do. It's not about being clean for Jews. It's also not about whether or not people know as other posters have suggested. It's not even that "god will be made".

Jewish people do not do mitzvah for reward or to avoid punishment, they do them to raise themselves spiritually, stay connected to the past, and create the opportunity for more mitzvah.

Kendarik:

No, it won't do. It's not about being clean for Jews. It's also not about whether or not people know as other posters have suggested. It's not even that "god will be made".

Jewish people do not do mitzvah for reward or to avoid punishment, they do them to raise themselves spiritually, stay connected to the past, and create the opportunity for more mitzvah.

But that still doesn't imply a great hurry, does it? The bottom line is still "the flap needs to go", and it's what matter in the end, isn't it?

What I'm getting at is that surely it doesn't hurt to wait until everyone's aboard with the idea of a circumcision, including the person getting it. Being given the choice just strikes me as generally more polite. Getting one at all ought to be more important on a whole than the exact time, which is a bit of a detail. The spiritual attunement, the connection to the past and the mitzvahs ahead are not ruined because you're given the option of not having one, are they?

Blablahb:

Wolverine18:
Citation?

In addition to the excellent site, white cites scientific studies and specific cases, there's also this.

Queu indepedant Dutch doctor's organisation KNMG's official view on circumcision, which is based on their collective expertise and experience of all physicians in the country:
http://knmg.artsennet.nl/Publicaties/KNMGpublicatie/Nontherapeutic-circumcision-of-male-minors-2010.htm

"Contrary to popular belief, circumcision can cause complications - bleeding, infection, urethral stricture and panic attacks are particularly common. KNMG is therefore urging a strong policy of deterrence. KNMG is calling upon doctors to actively and insistently inform parents who are considering the procedure of the absence of medical benefits and the danger of complications."

Still waiting to see the proof of the millions of serious complications.

....man the escapist really doesn't like religion. For a little bit I thought it was mainly Christianity but now I see they pretty much don't like any kind.

keiskay:

everythingbeeps:

Helmholtz Watson:

1. If your going to say that Judaism is fictional, back up your claim.

2. Again, prove that our religion is fictional. As for your second comment, are you really suggesting that "the jews" are making laws to force upon gentiles? Really? Do you also believe that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is real as well?

It shouldn't be up to me to prove your religion is fiction. You certainly can't prove it's real.

you made a claim, back it up. this is incredibly dishonest. bro.

for anyone saying think of the children let me say this to you. fuck children, they are just as worthless and as idiotic as the rest of us, and when they grow up they will still be blubbering morons who don't know whats good for themselves, uncut or not. they will probably engage in useless debates that solve nothing and claim to be the best and most progressive society when all they do is nothing but debate about petty unimportant shit, while real problems get tossed aside for the next generation to fix.

seriously i think all children should be castrated for the good of the earth.

Dude, you seriously need to calm down.

Kendarik:

Muspelheim:

Cakes:
The idea that this would have any real impact on circumcision in the Jewish community is laughable. All the gruesome punishments the ancient world could come up with didn't stop Jews from being Jews, I doubt whatever a modern court decides is going to stop us.

I don't think it's part of some sort of sinister plan to punish or destroy Jews, since the only thing outlawed is cirumcising babies. You can still get a circumcision, the only difference is that it'll have to wait until you're old enough to decide yourself. It sounds like an alright deal to me.

As I've said: the important thing is that the foreskin goes off, as that's the sign of the deal they signed with God. And he's supposed to be a fairly understanding deity, and has been along for a very, very long time, and a child growing up to that age is probably not any time at all from his perspective, so I can't imagine him raising a fuss about it. Sure, purity is important, but German children live in a very hygienic age and place, surely that'll do in the meanwhile?

No, it won't do. It's not about being clean for Jews. It's also not about whether or not people know as other posters have suggested. It's not even that "god will be made".

Jewish people do not do mitzvah for reward or to avoid punishment, they do them to raise themselves spiritually, stay connected to the past, and create the opportunity for more mitzvah.

That's the thing... Why stay in the past?

Why?

The past is the past, and longer we hold onto it the longer we delay actual progress. Once you strike down the labyrinth of ancient arcane mentality, whole new horizons open up and people can have better lives. Freer lives, without the tyranny of religious tradition, should be the goal of everyone.

Whats worse is that the past is sometimes plain wrong, passed down by religious texts that were nothing more than ancient rumors that a long dead people believed.

Ultratwinkie:

Whats worse is that the past is sometimes plain wrong, passed down by religious texts that were nothing more than ancient rumors that a long dead people believed.

Prove it, prove the Torah is nothing more than "ancient rumors that a long dead people believed".

Helmholtz Watson:

Ultratwinkie:

Whats worse is that the past is sometimes plain wrong, passed down by religious texts that were nothing more than ancient rumors that a long dead people believed.

Prove it, prove the Torah is nothing more than "ancient rumors that a long dead people believed".

The "jewish slaves built the pyramid" was disproven by Historians for years. Historians traced the rumor back to a guy in ancient Rome who liked to make rumors like this. I think it was the same guy who said that he saw Roman soldiers burn down Rome for some Roman conspiracy. This rumor found its way into religious texts over time.

Then you have Solomon, and how he was greatly exaggerated. Noah's arc and the contradiction over the bird that was sent. In one sentence states a dove, another states a raven.

There is a whole list, and an entire documentary (bible's buried secrets) dedicated to this. Including historical debate Moses and Abraham didn't exist in the first place due to lack of evidence.

Also, notice how I said some and not all.

Helmholtz Watson:
Prove it, prove the Torah is nothing more than "ancient rumors that a long dead people believed".

He used the wrong word. It is not rumors but ancient superstition. How I know? Cutting in to little babies is a damn good clue. What is scary is that people are still at it.

Helmholtz Watson:

Ultratwinkie:

Whats worse is that the past is sometimes plain wrong, passed down by religious texts that were nothing more than ancient rumors that a long dead people believed.

Prove it, prove the Torah is nothing more than "ancient rumors that a long dead people believed".

Surely if you're the one whose going to be lopping body parts off of children then it's up to you to provide the reasoning and the evidence behind that decision?

If i decided to chop the earlobes off my child because the Spaghetti monster told me he'd prefer my child that way, you'd want me to provide some sort of valid reasoning other beyond what i potentially just made up, yes? This is the same situation, from the perspective of an atheist, we see you (as in, the collective Jewish community) chopping body parts off your children and the only reasoning you have is that a 2000+ year old book told you too. Which as far as I can see is about as equally a good reason for doing anything as me just making stuff up. Either way it's completely unsubstantiated reasoning.

However many complications the operation has is irrelevant as far as i can see, even if there's just one potential complication that's too much for what is for all intents and purposes, a pointless operation.

The other part of the argument for me is that you're essentially removing any and all choice from your child. My dad is a priest but i was never baptised, my parents left it up to me whether I wanted to be part of their religion. In the end i grew up atheist, so i guess all in all it's a good thing i wasn't baptised. Off course the difference there is a baptism doesn't permanently alter my body, it's a purely abstract concept, so it wouldn't have mattered anyway. So if my dad could choose not to baptise me (a process that doesn't make any permanent physical changes anyway) and allow me to make my own choice, what's stopping Jews choosing not to circumcise their newborns and give their child a choice in the matter? Seems to me it's just part of indoctrinating your child into your religion at a very early age. And personally, I believe that's wrong. It should be up to the individual whether they want to be part of a religion or not, the choice should not be removed from them a couple of hours after they've left their mothers womb.

Why would God give a shit whether the op is done at 8 hours or 18 years, if the child grows up atheist then whether he has a foreskin or not is surely the least of Gods worries. If the child grows up to be a decent Jew then why would God care if he had a foreskin for the first 16-18 years of his life? Is God really this petty?

I just can't think of a single (secular) reason to criticise this legislation. The only reason to criticise it that i can think of is "God says so", and we should all be thanking our lucky stars that that isn't a good enough reason for legislation anymore, because that sort of thinking has caused whole heaps of trouble.

Btw, i have nothing against circumcision for medical reasons, i was circumcised at the age of 20 and the operation only improved my sex life. I like not having a foreskin. So this isn't some kind of baseless attack on the operation itself, just the reasoning behind it.

Rastelin:

Helmholtz Watson:
Prove it, prove the Torah is nothing more than "ancient rumors that a long dead people believed".

He used the wrong word. It is not rumors but ancient superstition. How I know? Cutting in to little babies is a damn good clue. What is scary is that people are still at it.

Technically no. When I said rumors I meant stuff like exaggerations or just stuff that didn't happen.

Like the Jewish slaves building pyramids, etc. There are instances of these in religious texts. Trying to reconnect to a past that never actually happened (or had proof to happen) wouldn't make any sense.

Helmholtz Watson:
Prove it, prove the Torah is nothing more than "ancient rumors that a long dead people believed".

But that's a reversed burden of evidence, a fallacy. There's no reason to assume any religious text is accurate.

Not to mention the indications in the mythology that it's copied from the Babylonians or completely made up to begin with.

keiskay:

Relish in Chaos:

And why do so many of you uncut guys care so much when so many actually cut guys couldn't give a shit? I don't. I have more things to worry about than whether or not I'm as potent as the uncut super-orgasming stud next door. Besides, in terms of actual scientific studies, the jury's pretty much out on the whole sensitivity issue. Theres no definitive evidence either way.

because cut is seen as normal, and creates a societal pressure. basically jealousy, a large majority of porn stars are cut, because it looks better i guess. and uncut guys are left around depressed because their parents didn't get them cut when they were babies and now they have a "weird" penis. its basically similar to say someone being short in a country full of tall people.

Cut isn't seen as normal where I live (UK), because I was embarrassed to mention that I'd be circumcised when I was about four (it was due to some kind of infection or foreskin complications rather than religious reasons, although my parents are Muslim). There was one time that my friends basically poured all these "facts" about cut guys having less sensitivity in their penis than uncut guys, and to no avail, I stuttered that there were studies that showed there was no change and you can't really prove it either way.

Relish in Chaos:
I stuttered that there were studies that showed there was no change and you can't really prove it either way.

Sounds extremely unlikely, considering nerves are destroyed during genital mutilation, no matter what.

And considering the amount of religious pseudo-science trying to defend genital mutilation, I'd be even more suspicious of such claims.

Oh noes, now how will i practice my religious child mutilation in germany?

Wolverine18:

Jonluw:

Circumcision of newborn boys is a fixed part of the Jewish religion and has been practiced worldwide for centuries," added Graumann.

I love how they act like that's actually an argument for circumcision.
If anything, it's an argument against judaism.
You know what else has been practiced worldwide for centuries milennia?
Antisemitism.

It's telling you don't see the connection between your statements above.

I think he's trying to point out that "We've Always Done It This Way" isn't actually an argument in favor of anything.

I'm fine with this.

"What need does God have for a foreskin?" -- Captain james T. Kirk, misquoted REALLY BADLY.

Helmholtz Watson:

Ultratwinkie:

Whats worse is that the past is sometimes plain wrong, passed down by religious texts that were nothing more than ancient rumors that a long dead people believed.

Prove it, prove the Torah is nothing more than "ancient rumors that a long dead people believed".

Well, there's a fair bit of evidence there was never a worldwide flood, for one thing.

arbane:

Helmholtz Watson:

Ultratwinkie:

Whats worse is that the past is sometimes plain wrong, passed down by religious texts that were nothing more than ancient rumors that a long dead people believed.

Prove it, prove the Torah is nothing more than "ancient rumors that a long dead people believed".

Well, there's a fair bit of evidence there was never a worldwide flood, for one thing.

Great, now prove every single other thing is just a bunch of rumors.

Ultratwinkie:

Like the Jewish slaves building pyramids, etc. There are instances of these in religious texts. Trying to reconnect to a past that never actually happened (or had proof to happen) wouldn't make any sense.

I went to temple and I never heard that they built the pyramids, just that they were slaves. While I always questioned the pyramid building, I thought being slaves was true though, no?

Helmholtz Watson:

arbane:

Helmholtz Watson:
Prove it, prove the Torah is nothing more than "ancient rumors that a long dead people believed".

Well, there's a fair bit of evidence there was never a worldwide flood, for one thing.

Great, now prove every single other thing is just a bunch of rumors.

Ultratwinkie:

Like the Jewish slaves building pyramids, etc. There are instances of these in religious texts. Trying to reconnect to a past that never actually happened (or had proof to happen) wouldn't make any sense.

I went to temple and I never heard that they built the pyramids, just that they were slaves. While I always questioned the pyramid building, I thought being slaves was true though, no?

From what I read, Jews were never slaves in Egypt at all. Or at least not in large numbers. Even Exodus is being questioned as archeologists can't find evidence outside the Bible and Torah. Egyptians kept very good historical records too, and none of it mentions Jewish slaves, plagues, or Moses.

The thing is that in some cases of religious history, there is no other evidence beyond the religious text itself even if the event was huge.

Ultratwinkie:

From what I read, Jews were never slaves in Egypt at all. Or at least not in large numbers. Even Exodus is being questioned as archeologists can't find evidence outside the Bible and Torah. Egyptians kept very good historical records too, and none of it mentions Jewish slaves, plagues, or Moses.

The thing is that in some cases of religious history, there is no other evidence beyond the religious text itself even if the event was huge.

You should take a look at this[1]. Its something interesting to read on the subject, specifically the difficulty/confusion in identifying people as "Jews" back then.

[1] I'm a little bit ignorant on this so I have to ask, is Skeptoid a good source?

For the religious aspects, I really don't care. But is it still outlawed for health reasons? I was circumcised when my penis got infected when I was about 7 or 8, and I've never had any problem since (I'm now 19). It'd be a little worrying if that was the case.

BathorysGraveland:
For the religious aspects, I really don't care. But is it still outlawed for health reasons? I was circumcised when my penis got infected when I was about 7 or 8, and I've never had any problem since (I'm now 19). It'd be a little worrying if that was the case.

I can't imagine why it would be banned - that's as legitimate a medical reason as I can think of.

And, OUCH...

thelittleman66:
I can see where they were coming from, but making a simple religious practice that has had practically no negative effect on society illegal is REALLY stepping over the boundaries that a respectable government should have. Hopefully, this is the furthest a first world nation will oppress the religious beliefs of it's citizens.

Banning genital mutilation based on religious zealotry is something every first world nation should do.

Show a provable medical benefit, and then perhaps it should be reconsidered.

Muspelheim:

Kendarik:

No, it won't do. It's not about being clean for Jews. It's also not about whether or not people know as other posters have suggested. It's not even that "god will be made".

Jewish people do not do mitzvah for reward or to avoid punishment, they do them to raise themselves spiritually, stay connected to the past, and create the opportunity for more mitzvah.

But that still doesn't imply a great hurry, does it? The bottom line is still "the flap needs to go", and it's what matter in the end, isn't it?

No. That is true for Muslims. However, for Jews it is required on the 8th day unless doing so would threaten the life of the child.

The spiritual attunement, the connection to the past and the mitzvahs ahead are not ruined because you're given the option of not having one, are they?

No. If your parents fail in their duty to circumcise you then it falls on you to have it done as soon as you become aware of your parents failure. As a parent, it would be one of the most serious failures and demonstration of lack of belief in the Jewish custom, law, and tradition that you could do.

Of course until its done you would be prohibited from participating in a number of parts of Jewish life. This would be most critical before your bar mitzvah but would also impact other things earlier in your life.

Culturally and religiously, it's not minor.

There is also a cultural reality that in the past every time someone tried to ban circumcision it was an attempt to wipe out the Jewish people. That cultural memory is firmly embedded at this point.

Ultratwinkie:

Kendarik:

Muspelheim:

I don't think it's part of some sort of sinister plan to punish or destroy Jews, since the only thing outlawed is cirumcising babies. You can still get a circumcision, the only difference is that it'll have to wait until you're old enough to decide yourself. It sounds like an alright deal to me.

As I've said: the important thing is that the foreskin goes off, as that's the sign of the deal they signed with God. And he's supposed to be a fairly understanding deity, and has been along for a very, very long time, and a child growing up to that age is probably not any time at all from his perspective, so I can't imagine him raising a fuss about it. Sure, purity is important, but German children live in a very hygienic age and place, surely that'll do in the meanwhile?

No, it won't do. It's not about being clean for Jews. It's also not about whether or not people know as other posters have suggested. It's not even that "god will be made".

Jewish people do not do mitzvah for reward or to avoid punishment, they do them to raise themselves spiritually, stay connected to the past, and create the opportunity for more mitzvah.

That's the thing... Why stay in the past?

Why?

The past is the past, and longer we hold onto it the longer we delay actual progress. Once you strike down the labyrinth of ancient arcane mentality, whole new horizons open up and people can have better lives. Freer lives, without the tyranny of religious tradition, should be the goal of everyone.

Whats worse is that the past is sometimes plain wrong, passed down by religious texts that were nothing more than ancient rumors that a long dead people believed.

Just as something isn't automatically right because its tradition, it isn't automatically wrong either.

And Jewish tradition does change with the times. We were for example some of the first to use topical agents and nerve blockers on circumcisions when the medical community was still saying "babies feel no pain".

I joined the Jewish people because I saw values in their traditions, and also in their way of maintaining tradition where reasonable and yet not only embracing, but seeking out science and better understandings of life and the Universe and ensuring that their beliefs recognized reality.

I've never seen any "religious tyranny", with the exception of one small sect of extremist Jews that are ... well... extremist, and don't even like other Jews much of the time.

2012 Wont Happen:

thelittleman66:
I can see where they were coming from, but making a simple religious practice that has had practically no negative effect on society illegal is REALLY stepping over the boundaries that a respectable government should have. Hopefully, this is the furthest a first world nation will oppress the religious beliefs of it's citizens.

Banning genital mutilation based on religious zealotry is something every first world nation should do.

Show a provable medical benefit, and then perhaps it should be reconsidered.

So then you would ban all cosmetic surgery?

Rastelin:
Heard the argument. This is threading upon religious rights. Mutilation of infants by adults is not in that category. It is an atrocity. Good going Germany. Religion poison everything and make ordinary people do things they never would have done otherwise.

- Will you cut in your sons penis?
- What? Are you crazy.
- But this unprovable god of ours says you have to.
- Oh alright then.

Insanity.

Circumcision was something arrived at independently by different groups of people, for some of whom it held no religious significance.
Not that this is an argument for it necessarily being a good thing (many people also came up with FGM), but it obviously isn't true that one needs religion to rationalize it.

Kendarik:

So then you would ban all cosmetic surgery?

On children?

Ultratwinkie:
From what I read, Jews were never slaves in Egypt at all. Or at least not in large numbers. Even Exodus is being questioned as archeologists can't find evidence outside the Bible and Torah. Egyptians kept very good historical records too, and none of it mentions Jewish slaves, plagues, or Moses.

The thing is that in some cases of religious history, there is no other evidence beyond the religious text itself even if the event was huge.

I don't think this historical records issue is nearly as troubling as you imagine, considering there are countless Egyptian kings who we know literally nothing about other than their name and roughly when they ruled.

Knight Templar:

Kendarik:

So then you would ban all cosmetic surgery?

On children?

I think he (she? I forget) is thinking more along the lines of a cleft palate than anything real vain.

Comando96:
Good.

Circumcision really religious bull... I mean... It was not done for a Religious reason but a health reason as not having the foreskin is better for hygiene in a very dry environment...

If you want it cut off, fine... but when you are old enough to make that decision.

But... seriously which man will knowingly have an operation which makes your dick smaller? (other than a very well endowed man who can afford to lose a bit)

Uh, it doesn't make your dick smaller, you don't count the skin after the tip.

I really don't see any drawbacks to circumcision, I was at that age for medical (I was raised in a Christian family, still that way). Life changing Accidents happen, but that's a risk in any procedure.

I'm more worried about female circumcision which causes more harm than good.

Kendarik:

Ultratwinkie:

Kendarik:

No, it won't do. It's not about being clean for Jews. It's also not about whether or not people know as other posters have suggested. It's not even that "god will be made".

Jewish people do not do mitzvah for reward or to avoid punishment, they do them to raise themselves spiritually, stay connected to the past, and create the opportunity for more mitzvah.

That's the thing... Why stay in the past?

Why?

The past is the past, and longer we hold onto it the longer we delay actual progress. Once you strike down the labyrinth of ancient arcane mentality, whole new horizons open up and people can have better lives. Freer lives, without the tyranny of religious tradition, should be the goal of everyone.

Whats worse is that the past is sometimes plain wrong, passed down by religious texts that were nothing more than ancient rumors that a long dead people believed.

Just as something isn't automatically right because its tradition, it isn't automatically wrong either.

And Jewish tradition does change with the times. We were for example some of the first to use topical agents and nerve blockers on circumcisions when the medical community was still saying "babies feel no pain".

I joined the Jewish people because I saw values in their traditions, and also in their way of maintaining tradition where reasonable and yet not only embracing, but seeking out science and better understandings of life and the Universe and ensuring that their beliefs recognized reality.

I've never seen any "religious tyranny", with the exception of one small sect of extremist Jews that are ... well... extremist, and don't even like other Jews much of the time.

Of course there is such thing as religious tyranny.

In religions, they set out rules based on superstition. Old beliefs of the time when people were afraid of witchcraft, and curses. Some set out more strict rules than others.

To limit a person for no reason is tyranny. Nothing more than limiting the scope of which a person may want to live his or her life out of ancient unfounded fear.

One night stands or go to sex parties? Oh no, religion has a hissy fit.

Eating certain food that doesn't fit with arbitrarily set rules? Oh no, another hissy fit.

Have a sexuality other than straight? Hissy fit.

Are you an effeminate man (this is an actual passage in the bible)? Hissy fit.

Alcohol? Hissy fit.

The list goes on and on.

Ultratwinkie:
One night stands or go to sex parties? Oh no, religion has a hissy fit.

Wow, this really makes me wish I wasn't religious, then I could lead a healthy and fulfilling life like this!

Alcohol? Hissy fit.

Alcohol is required in Judaism...

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