Islamists destroy Timbuktu

Timbuktu shrines damaged by Mali Ansar Dine Islamists

Islamist fighters in Mali have damaged at least one Muslim saint's shrine in the city of Timbuktu, witnesses say.

The fighters, from the Ansar Dine group, which controls much of northern Mali, attacked the mausoleum of Sidi Mahmoud, one of 16 shrines in the city.

Last week, the UN cultural organisation Unesco put Timbuktu on its list of endangered world heritage sites, fearing damage following the coup which toppled the Malian government in March.

Islamists regard shrines as idolatrous.

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Islamists rebels of Ansar Dine near Timbuktu, in rebel-held northern Mali

Ansar Dine spokesman Sanda Ould Boumama told the AFP news agency the shrines would be destroyed, "all of them, without exception".

He went on: "God is unique. All of this is haram (forbidden in Islam). We are all Muslims. Unesco is what?"

"They have already completely destroyed the mausoleum of Sidi Mahmoud (Ben Amar) and two others," Malian journalist Yeya Tandina told the Reuters news agency.

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Timbuktu, sometimes called the city of 333 saints, is famous for its distinctive architecture

In addition to the shrines, Timbuktu is home to some 700,000 ancient manuscripts held in about 60 private libraries.

On Thursday, Unesco said the city's capture by armed Islamists could endanger its "outstanding architectural wonders".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-18657463

In Islam, shirk is the sin of idolatry or polytheism. i.e. the deification or worship of anyone or anything other than the singular God, or more literally the establishment of "partners" placed beside God.

Within Islam, shirk is an unforgivable crime; God may forgive any sin if one dies in that state except for committing shirk.[1][2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam)

So, what do you think about this news?

Edit:

Helmholtz Watson:
I saw this video and it seemed relevant.

I don't really care about the buildings, but it's concerning why they're being destroyed, and I'm sure that most Muslims want the shrines to remain. So basically it sucks.

Eh, damaging or destroying shrines in Timbuktu is not the same as destroying Timbuktu.

thaluikhain:
Eh, damaging or destroying shrines in Timbuktu is not the same as destroying Timbuktu.

This was my initial thought as well. Kinda misleading title

thaluikhain:
Eh, damaging or destroying shrines in Timbuktu is not the same as destroying Timbuktu.

In the end, if Mali manages to retake the area, the effect will be the same. Timbuktu came to prominence because of those archives, monuments, libraries... That, and a few old novels have elevated Timbuktu to a place fairly well known, and a tourist attraction.

If the islamists destroy that, they destroy most of the economic foundation of the city.

Blablahb:

thaluikhain:
Eh, damaging or destroying shrines in Timbuktu is not the same as destroying Timbuktu.

In the end, if Mali manages to retake the area, the effect will be the same. Timbuktu came to prominence because of those archives, monuments, libraries... That, and a few old novels have elevated Timbuktu to a place fairly well known, and a tourist attraction.

If the islamists destroy that, they destroy most of the economic foundation of the city.

Destroying some of the shrines is not the same as destroying all the historical monuments and sites in the city. While I think it is deeply regretable that they are destroying historical buildings, this is not exactly the first time anyone destroys historical buildings and the only thing making this different from most other times is that this is done in the name of a religion instead of in the name of city expansion or profit.

Gethsemani:

Blablahb:

thaluikhain:
Eh, damaging or destroying shrines in Timbuktu is not the same as destroying Timbuktu.

In the end, if Mali manages to retake the area, the effect will be the same. Timbuktu came to prominence because of those archives, monuments, libraries... That, and a few old novels have elevated Timbuktu to a place fairly well known, and a tourist attraction.

If the islamists destroy that, they destroy most of the economic foundation of the city.

Destroying some of the shrines is not the same as destroying all the historical monuments and sites in the city. While I think it is deeply regretable that they are destroying historical buildings, this is not exactly the first time anyone destroys historical buildings and the only thing making this different from most other times is that this is done in the name of a religion instead of in the name of city expansion or profit.

The worryin' thing is that it only some so far. It may become more then merely a couple of shrines if the trend continues, and I don't exactly see any reason why these sorta folks would just halt after a couple. It ain't the first, but it doesn't make it any less tragic when such history gets destroyed for petty reasons. It's quite disheartenin' , and I hope not too much is lost in the run of this all.

Xeorm:

thaluikhain:
Eh, damaging or destroying shrines in Timbuktu is not the same as destroying Timbuktu.

This was my initial thought as well. Kinda misleading title

Not kinda misleading- very misleading. And I'd have trouble believing it's not intentionally so.

Sadly, this seems to be not unheard of when Muslims are the topic of the title. I seem to remember Danyal doing this sort of thing before.

thaluikhain:
Eh, damaging or destroying shrines in Timbuktu is not the same as destroying Timbuktu.

Of course it isn't, Danyal is just trying to get knee jerk reactions from people who come into the thread and only read the title. Its nothing new.

Yeah, its sad that these ancient tombs/shrines/ what ever the fuck you want to call them, are being destroyed, but somehow I think that by doing that the Islamists are making a mistake. Those structures are one of the things that Timbuktu is known for, and I'm sure that the residents are fond of them at least to a certain extent, so it is foolish of the Islamists to go around blowing them up as it will likely attract the anger of the people.

Salakayin:

The worryin' thing is that it only some so far. It may become more then merely a couple of shrines if the trend continues, and I don't exactly see any reason why these sorta folks would just halt after a couple. It ain't the first, but it doesn't make it any less tragic when such history gets destroyed for petty reasons. It's quite disheartenin' , and I hope not too much is lost in the run of this all.

It's been 2060 odd years and I'm still pissed off at the Romans over the Library of Alexandrina. If these bastards touch one more piece of history in the name of some senseless crusade I'm going over there to stop them myself -_-

Danyal:
snip

I saw this video and it seemed relevant.

Helmholtz Watson:

Danyal:
snip

I saw this video and it seemed relevant.

Very relevant, I'll embed it in the OP. Thank you.

Katatori-kun:
Not kinda misleading- very misleading. And I'd have trouble believing it's not intentionally so.

Sadly, this seems to be not unheard of when Muslims are the topic of the title. I seem to remember Danyal doing this sort of thing before.

GrimTuesday:
Of course it isn't, Danyal is just trying to get knee jerk reactions from people who come into the thread and only read the title. Its nothing new.

I still remember This is what happens when you court fear....

"Look, violence because of Islamophobia!"

Oops!

Gorfias:
While I appreciate your sentiments, I don't think this crime will fit neatly into any stereotypes or normal political frameworks:

http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20120102/US.Islamic.Center.Fire.Attack/?cid=hero_media

The guy claims not so much hate for anyone (though he'll be charged) but that they wouldn't let him use their bathroom.

He also doesn't look like your typical angry white american male.

And Katatori never responded to that news.

thaluikhain:
Eh, damaging or destroying shrines in Timbuktu is not the same as destroying Timbuktu.

Too true, plus it should be extreme Islamists because they are destroying other Islamic sites.

OT: This is an unfortunate by-product of Islam in the modern world. Not to attack Islam as it is a beautiful religion;I was reading the works of one prominent Islamic professor and he was dismayed at, what he called, the Islamisation of knowledge instead of the knowledge of Islam a.k.a open and structured research and debate surrounding the religion.

This kind of ultra-conservative form of Islam is extremly damaging for Islam as a whole, despite the relatively small size yet large influence of these groups

The Islamists might well be destroying Timbuktu. Without its history it is just a unimportant town in the middle of nowhere.

Wait a sec. I know trying to rationalise a great deal of what fundamentalists do is fraught with pitfalls but... a shrine is a place that is dedicated to a deity. If the shrines were dedicated to Allah, I don't see how they are doing anything but providing a place to further venerate the power of God?

What these people need to realise is that Islam was, and could still be, made great by knowledge and learning -- they really are not opposed to one another: faith and intellect.

Huh, it reminds me somewhat of when the Muslim Uma returned to Mecca and conquered it, destroying all of the idols in the main pantheon like structure and turning it into their own. Perhaps the same would happen?

I am most concerned about the Knowledge that could be lost in this. I know as of last year there were students there actively translating the ancient manuscripts to share with the world, I hope they all were able to get out of there before this and are safe. I am not sure what this will mean for the the future of the ancient manuscript translation projects going on, but I really hope they were also able to get many of those out of there as well. These projects are very important to gaining a better understanding of the past and history for so many.

http://www.tombouctoumanuscripts.org/projects/

TheIronRuler:
Huh, it reminds me somewhat of when the Muslim Uma returned to Mecca and conquered it, destroying all of the idols in the main pantheon like structure and turning it into their own. Perhaps the same would happen?

Weren't there some synagogues originally in Mecca as well? I think that Mohammed destroyed them.

Helmholtz Watson:

TheIronRuler:
Huh, it reminds me somewhat of when the Muslim Uma returned to Mecca and conquered it, destroying all of the idols in the main pantheon like structure and turning it into their own. Perhaps the same would happen?

Weren't there some synagogues originally in Mecca as well? I think that Mohammed destroyed them.

He might have. After the departure from Mecca he cut ties to Judaism and Christianity. That structure, the black rock, was a temple filled with massive idols of all kinds.

considering what happened to the buddhist statues in afghanistan they could potentially destroy so much of their history.

Gethsemani:
Destroying some of the shrines is not the same as destroying all the historical monuments and sites in the city.

I hope you're right. But considering the track records of islamic extremists in that regard, and the nature of tourism and tourist destinations, I still think they've destroyed much of the economic base of Timbuktu.

Blablahb:

Gethsemani:
Destroying some of the shrines is not the same as destroying all the historical monuments and sites in the city.

I hope you're right. But considering the track records of islamic extremists in that regard, and the nature of tourism and tourist destinations, I still think they've destroyed much of the economic base of Timbuktu.

Sadly, I think its been gettin' worse for 'em. It ain't lookin' like anybody is even in position to stop the bosh'tets from doin' their thing either. Its a shame for both history and potentially the economic base of the city.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-18675539

go religion gooooooooooooooooo

Nothing is permanent. It's unfortunate to see these monuments vanish, but at this point it's better to accept that they're gone. We still know about most of their history, and we've got the memory of them; so as long as we remember what it once was and what it once represented, history is not lost.

Now that's all said: somebody put these fucking bastards down as fast as possible. They are a shame to the religion they preach, they show no respect to other people's values and they've destroyed the economic base of an entire historic city. Once again, extremism and Al Qaeda ruin things for everyone. AGAIN.

These people need to be given the lesson that actions have consequences, and while I prefer a nonviolent solution it's near impossible for these people. They're utter fanatics.

Ldude893:
Nothing is permanent. It's unfortunate to see these monuments vanish, but at this point it's better to accept that they're gone. We still know about most of their history, and we've got the memory of them; so as long as we remember what it once was and what it once represented, history is not lost.

Now that's all said: somebody put these fucking bastards down as fast as possible. They are a shame to the religion they preach, they show no respect to other people's values and they've destroyed the economic base of an entire historic city. Once again, extremism and Al Qaeda ruin things for everyone. AGAIN.

These people need to be given the lesson that actions have consequences, and while I prefer a nonviolent solution it's near impossible for these people. They're utter fanatics.

Losing 700,000 ancient manuscripts IS permanent. That can never be replaced if they are lost in this. Buildings can be rebuilt, no it is not the same, but they had hardly even started on translating the manuscripts to share with the world.

(Off-Topic-sorta) You know I feel terrible about typing this but the reason the Al-Quida are there in the first place is that America blew them all the way there.

I feel the same way as Ldude893 these bastards should be put in the ground for destroying these beautiful buildings and historical manuscripts, I'll be damned if someone doesn't stop them.

It's a world-heritage, and it's a goddamn shame that it is being destroyed.

God'sFist:
(Off-Topic-sorta) You know I feel terrible about typing this but the reason the Al-Quida are there in the first place is that America blew them all the way there.

Uh, what? As far as I know, 'Al-Quida' nor Al-Qaeda is in Timbuktu, and how did America blow them there?

Danyal:

God'sFist:
(Off-Topic-sorta) You know I feel terrible about typing this but the reason the Al-Quida are there in the first place is that America blew them all the way there.

Uh, what? As far as I know, 'Al-Quida' nor Al-Qaeda is in Timbuktu, and how did America blow them there?

Well as to say how the Al-Qaeda i read somewhere on this thread that the Al-Qaeda were the people attacking Timbuktu. but on my joke since america went to war with them and Kinda sorta won but not really. And ever hear the expression "I'm gonna blow you all the way to Timbuktu."?

He went on: "God is unique. All of this is haram (forbidden in Islam). We are all Muslims. Unesco is what?"

Anyone who does this is a f**king philistine and should be shot. Their actions are an outright insult to the collective heritage of mankind. I'm not joking when I say their lives are worth less than those monuments and they should be defended with lethal force.

More mindless thugs hiding behind warped belief systems to destroy heritage and culture. Remember the destruction of Buddha statues at the hands of the Taliban in 2001.

nikki191:
considering what happened to the buddhist statues in afghanistan they could potentially destroy so much of their history.

Exactly. I don't give a shit about someone's "religion" if it makes them do this.

 

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