Horrible things done in recent history that seems to have been forgotten.

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(I'm not specifically targeting the U.S, but I'm using the following example because it stood to mind).

I'm starting this topic because I recently got into a fight with a jingoist (who also happens to be my friend for some reason). He was under the impression that the U.S had never done any harm. That there was absolutely no reason for some people to really dislike the U.S. Every country on this planet in the course of history have acted like jerks. At least once. Or were repeatedly conquered.

He blacked me out when I mentioned Iraq and Afghanistan, saying there was a reason
When I mentioned the Nicaragua bombing and the assassination of the democratically elected president Salvador Allende by the CIA, however he pretty much ... shut down. That was the best word to describe it. Or just gave up. We had been arguing for some time.

He genuinely didn't know about some things the U.S had done in South America. He was also completely ignorant of the drug war cartels, and how it may have given a reason for some Mexicans to move instead of just a fervent desire of "taking the jobs of Americans".

I don't expect him to know everything, especially since he's in computer science, but it was somewhat surprising to me.

I don't know that much about the world either. I still don't quite understand why Yugoslavia broke apart the way it did for example. I'm only human, so I will only know so much about foreign relations. No country is guilt free. Can everyone else give examples of events like these, which seem to have been forgotten?

Captcha: Leave me alone.

I get it captcha. You want another gun law debate. Well, too bad.

Edit:It might be a nice change of pace from the same old arguments.

I don't like the fact that people act like Japanese internment camps didn't happen, and I think it's awesome that a broadway musical is being made (With George Takei in it! Woot!) portraying those atrocities.

Here's the cite for that: http://www.allegiancemusical.com/blog-so-takei

America's discrimination toward asians was unbearable at that time, women were harassed in the camps and people came back to find racial slurs sprayed all over the walls of their ruined homes.

It's important to remind ourselves what our military can do when we let it go unchecked.

I also particularly agree with the lack of public knowledge on the Cartel drug wars. Very few people seem to know there's an all out war just a few miles south from our country. It makes the immigrants more sympathetic, which I'm sure is part of the reason it's often ignored.

I got something for you. East Timor is a nation which was established in 2004. It had been under foreign occupation for 25 or so years. The occupier? Indonesia. Not a peep on the media.

Somewhere in the 70s our dear 'ol Portugal, a has-been colonial power continued with its dismantling of its colonial possessions One of these was half an island (with the other half held by Indonesia, which was a part of the Dutch colonies back than, and plus, they even bought that and a few more islands from Portugal during the high times of the Dutch East India trading company). If you're unfamiliar with Indonesia, it's a massive country with the population similar to the numbers in the USA. It's comprised of several Islands in south-east Asia and it has more than one nationality (somewhere around 20 groups, methink). These had been wanting Independence, but y'know... nobody cares.

Japan took over the Dutch colonial possessions in WW2 and after the war and withdraw of Japanese troops from Indonesia, it started a war with the Netherlands for its existence. The Netherlands wanted its colonial territory back, but Indonesia refused. They also expelled all of the Dutch whites from Indonesia, for the lulz. This war had no foreign intervention, but most of the western world supported Indonesia, being all "anti-imperialist" and shit. Indonesia also swallowed neighboring islands that had their own wish to become independent nations and became one giant nation state. Also, dictatorship, huzzah!

In 197... Portugal left East Timor and Indonesia came in, saying that the area naturally belongs to Indonesia for some reason. In the following occupation it's estimated that between three hundred thousand to two hundred thousand had died in East Timor and many had fled that area. Now, some people don't really know about this. In 2004 negotiations with Indonesia (Now with a "true" democracy, as the previous dictator stepped down) and the UN, East Timor got its country status. Those that were kicked out or fled the land had the opportunity to return to East Timor, and so did their offspring, which is a fine idea if you ask me.

TheIronRuler:
I got something for you. East Timor is a nation which was established in 2004. It had been under foreign occupation for 25 or so years. The occupier? Indonesia. Not a peep on the media.

Somewhere in the 70s our dear 'ol Portugal, a has-been colonial power continued with its dismantling of its colonial possessions One of these was half an island (with the other half held by Indonesia, which was a part of the Dutch colonies back than, and plus, they even bought that and a few more islands from Portugal during the high times of the Dutch East India trading company). If you're unfamiliar with Indonesia, it's a massive country with the population similar to the numbers in the USA. It's comprised of several Islands in south-east Asia and it has more than one nationality (somewhere around 20 groups, methink). These had been wanting Independence, but y'know... nobody cares.

Japan took over the Dutch colonial possessions in WW2 and after the war and withdraw of Japanese troops from Indonesia, it started a war with the Netherlands for its existence. The Netherlands wanted its colonial territory back, but Indonesia refused. They also expelled all of the Dutch whites from Indonesia, for the lulz. This war had no foreign intervention, but most of the western world supported Indonesia, being all "anti-imperialist" and shit. Indonesia also swallowed neighboring islands that had their own wish to become independent nations and became one giant nation state. Also, dictatorship, huzzah!

In 197... Portugal left East Timor and Indonesia came in, saying that the area naturally belongs to Indonesia for some reason. In the following occupation it's estimated that between three hundred thousand to two hundred thousand had died in East Timor and many had fled that area. Now, some people don't really know about this. In 2004 negotiations with Indonesia (Now with a "true" democracy, as the previous dictator stepped down) and the UN, East Timor got its country status. Those that were kicked out or fled the land had the opportunity to return to East Timor, and so did their offspring, which is a fine idea if you ask me.

Wow.

I really did not know about that.

Thanks. I don't know that much about Oceania (otherwise know as Australia and the Islands).

Overusedname:
I don't like the fact that people act like Japanese internment camps didn't happen, and I think it's awesome that a broadway musical is being made (With George Takei in it! Woot!) portraying those atrocities.

Here's the cite for that: http://www.allegiancemusical.com/blog-so-takei

America's discrimination toward asians was unbearable at that time, women were harassed in the camps and people came back to find racial slurs sprayed all over the walls of their ruined homes.

It's important to remind ourselves what our military can do when we let it go unchecked.

I also particularly agree with the lack of public knowledge on the Cartel drug wars. Very few people seem to know there's an all out war just a few miles south from our country. It makes the immigrants more sympathetic, which I'm sure is part of the reason it's often ignored.

The pacific war and operation Barbarossa (Russia Vs Germany) were the most vicious moments of WW2. It's too bad they're the two fonts to be ignored.

It's the dark mark on FDR's legacy. Did you know that the hate was so bad, that there actually had to print an article on how to tell the difference between the Chinese and Japanese? The whole period was horrible though.

Then again during the Bush era of paranoia a Sikh man was killed because he wore a turban and obviously everyone who wore a turban is an Arab, right? (That was a joke).

I also don't understand the hatred of immigrants. America will die without them. They work harder than the average citizen.
http://www.realsikhism.com/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1193696645&ucat=5

Frission:

The pacific war and operation Barbarossa (Russia Vs Germany) were the most vicious moments of WW2. It's too bad they're the two fonts to be ignored.

It's the dark mark on FDR's legacy. Did you know that the hate was so bad, that there actually had to print an article on how to tell the difference between the Chinese and Japanese? The whole period was horrible though.

Then again during the Bush era of paranoia a Sikh man was killed because he wore a turban and obviously everyone who wore a turban is an Arab, right? (That was a joke).

I also don't understand the hatred of immigrants. America will die without them. They work harder than the average citizen.
http://www.realsikhism.com/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1193696645&ucat=5

Knew about the pacific war, but I'm bothered that I was never taught about Barbarossa. And I did a lot of personal research on WW2, so that tells me that people went out of their way to hide it. I also heard about those documents about the difference between the two nationalities. Jeez. It's like confusing england and spain.

America is also a country OF immigrants. We're the melting pot for god's sake, why is that suddenly a bad thing? I though it was our best feature.

Overusedname:

Frission:

The pacific war and operation Barbarossa (Russia Vs Germany) were the most vicious moments of WW2. It's too bad they're the two fonts to be ignored.

It's the dark mark on FDR's legacy. Did you know that the hate was so bad, that there actually had to print an article on how to tell the difference between the Chinese and Japanese? The whole period was horrible though.

Then again during the Bush era of paranoia a Sikh man was killed because he wore a turban and obviously everyone who wore a turban is an Arab, right? (That was a joke).

I also don't understand the hatred of immigrants. America will die without them. They work harder than the average citizen.
http://www.realsikhism.com/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1193696645&ucat=5

Knew about the pacific war, but I'm bothered that I was never taught about Barbarossa. And I did a lot of personal research on WW2, so that tells me that people went out of their way to hide it. I also heard about those documents about the difference between the two nationalities. Jeez. It's like confusing england and spain.

America is also a country OF immigrants. We're the melting pot for god's sake, why is that suddenly a bad thing? I though it was our best feature.

.
Huh, Operation Barbarossa was the third subject when we went over WW2 in class, I'm surprised they didn't teach you that.

OP, do you want horrible shit from the second half of the 20th century and the last 12 years, right?

Damn, the history of Spain in the 19th-20th century is so mind boggling it's a shame so little of my peers here know about it.

Anyway... recent. Hmm... Belarus is currently under a supposed Dictatorial regime. No, I'm serious. The current President had passed a new constitution ('96. I think nobody actually recognized that internationally) limiting human and civil rights like freedom of the press in '96. The authoritarian leader Alyaksandr Lukashenka had been around since '94 and he had been excommunicated by the local community several times. More power in the hands of the dictator president.... This is a modern day dictatorship in the edges of Europe. Five stars!

TheIronRuler:

.
Huh, Operation Barbarossa was the third subject when we went over WW2 in class, I'm surprised they didn't teach you that.

OP, do you want horrible shit from the second half of the 20th century and the last 12 years, right?

Damn, the history of Spain in the 19th-20th century is so mind boggling it's a shame so little of my peers here know about it.

Anyway... recent. Hmm... Belarus is currently under a supposed Dictatorial regime. No, I'm serious. The current President had passed a new constitution ('96. I think nobody actually recognized that internationally) limiting human and civil rights like freedom of the press in '96. The authoritarian leader Alyaksandr Lukashenka had been around since '94 and he had been excommunicated by the local community several times. More power in the hands of the dictator president.... This is a modern day dictatorship in the edges of Europe. Five stars!

History class tends to be fragmented. At best. It also depends on the country. We learned a lot about the Italian Unification for some reason, but we completely ignored Napoleon.

As long as I recognize the countries it's okay. I'm obviously not going to feel more than slight historical curiosity on all the bad things the roman legion has done. I'm fine until before WWI.

All I know about the Spanish Civil War was from the one semester of class which just said it was an example of appeasement and one viewing of "Pan's Labyrinth" and the fact that a judge wasn't allowed to open a grave dug up by Gray shirts because the memories were too painful. From what I learned, shit was fucked.

I know about Belarus. I don't know why a modern day dictatorship is still allowed to exist.

Overusedname:

Frission:

The pacific war and operation Barbarossa (Russia Vs Germany) were the most vicious moments of WW2. It's too bad they're the two fonts to be ignored.

It's the dark mark on FDR's legacy. Did you know that the hate was so bad, that there actually had to print an article on how to tell the difference between the Chinese and Japanese? The whole period was horrible though.

Then again during the Bush era of paranoia a Sikh man was killed because he wore a turban and obviously everyone who wore a turban is an Arab, right? (That was a joke).

I also don't understand the hatred of immigrants. America will die without them. They work harder than the average citizen.
http://www.realsikhism.com/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1193696645&ucat=5

Knew about the pacific war, but I'm bothered that I was never taught about Barbarossa. And I did a lot of personal research on WW2, so that tells me that people went out of their way to hide it. I also heard about those documents about the difference between the two nationalities. Jeez. It's like confusing england and spain.

America is also a country OF immigrants. We're the melting pot for god's sake, why is that suddenly a bad thing? I though it was our best feature.

Beats me about the immigrants, maybe someone should make a topic with the title "Why do you guys hate immigrants so much?" I would if I didn't know it would quite probably create a gigantic flame war.

TheIronRuler:

Anyway... recent. Hmm... Belarus is currently under a supposed Dictatorial regime. No, I'm serious. The current President had passed a new constitution ('96. I think nobody actually recognized that internationally) limiting human and civil rights like freedom of the press in '96. The authoritarian leader Alyaksandr Lukashenka had been around since '94 and he had been excommunicated by the local community several times. More power in the hands of the dictator president.... This is a modern day dictatorship in the edges of Europe. Five stars!

Any serious discussion of Lukashenka would also have to discuss his status as Putin's pawn. Seeing as the official line is Russia is not a threat to anyone and has no designs on anyone else this would be rather politically incorrect.

ravenshrike:

TheIronRuler:

Anyway... recent. Hmm... Belarus is currently under a supposed Dictatorial regime. No, I'm serious. The current President had passed a new constitution ('96. I think nobody actually recognized that internationally) limiting human and civil rights like freedom of the press in '96. The authoritarian leader Alyaksandr Lukashenka had been around since '94 and he had been excommunicated by the local community several times. More power in the hands of the dictator president.... This is a modern day dictatorship in the edges of Europe. Five stars!

Any serious discussion of Lukashenka would also have to discuss his status as Putin's pawn. Seeing as the official line is Russia is not a threat to anyone and has no designs on anyone else this would be rather politically incorrect.

.
Do YOU want to start a thread, or continue a discussion on this matter?

ravenshrike:

TheIronRuler:

Anyway... recent. Hmm... Belarus is currently under a supposed Dictatorial regime. No, I'm serious. The current President had passed a new constitution ('96. I think nobody actually recognized that internationally) limiting human and civil rights like freedom of the press in '96. The authoritarian leader Alyaksandr Lukashenka had been around since '94 and he had been excommunicated by the local community several times. More power in the hands of the dictator president.... This is a modern day dictatorship in the edges of Europe. Five stars!

Any serious discussion of Lukashenka would also have to discuss his status as Putin's pawn. Seeing as the official line is Russia is not a threat to anyone and has no designs on anyone else this would be rather politically incorrect.

Sorry, may you explain? I'm having trouble understanding, may you put it in context?

Thank you.

Whilst not exactly that horrible, everyone seems to have conveniently forgotten that Russia basically invaded Georgia only a couple of years ago[1]

And I suppose that civilian casualties in the war/occupation of Iraq could count, as the numbers are literally in the hundreds of thousands, but it's not exactly at the forefront of the public's mind (at least in the UK).

Esotera:
Whilst not exactly that horrible, everyone seems to have conveniently forgotten that Russia basically invaded Georgia only a couple of years ago[1]

And I suppose that civilian casualties in the war/occupation of Iraq could count, as the numbers are literally in the hundreds of thousands, but it's not exactly at the forefront of the public's mind (at least in the UK).

Not to mention that Russia bombed cities full of civilians.

Edit: Don't worry it's not in the forefront of the American public's mind either! :D

...

Damn.

Frission:

-snip-

.
I have something sweet for you - "North" Yemen and its civil war. So in '90 Yemen was reunified into what it is today. Y'See, Yemen was split between The Ottoman Empire and the British Empire, North and South respectively. After the dismantlement of The Ottoman Empire, North Yemen got its independence as a monarchy. The Brits withdrew from South Yemen in the 60s(methink) and left a republic behind which later turned to the People's Republic of Yemen, which was basically a communist Marxist country like the USSR with one party.

Right... fast forward a few years later and there's a revolution in North Yemen - the King of overthrown and royalists are fighting against Republicans. This war is was the backdrop of the '67 Six day war (And was also one of its main contributors). Egypt, or the Egyptian-Syrian union of its day had troops stationed in North Yemen supporting the Republic (Israel even had a operation where they dropped supplies to North Yemen loyalists... they were using Israel made Uzis...). It was a bitter war, one in which Egypt lost tens of thousands of lives and seemed to loose even though it faced a smaller and ill-equipped enemy. Egypt withdrew its forces after the Six Day war and their failure. So North Yemen was a "republic" but was more like a dictatorship.

Following a mini-war between the two, they made some compacts together regarding oil and currency, and then they were unified in 1990. The thing is, that in ever "unification", like all couples know, one has to be on top. So nowadays you have South Yemen revolters that argue against the government which discriminated against them. What I find funny here is that most of the revolters are World Jihad and other religious organizations, while South Yemen was clearly the only Marxist nation in the middle east... It was completely secular, and atheist. Oh history, I find you to be so awesome.

Frission:

Esotera:
Whilst not exactly that horrible, everyone seems to have conveniently forgotten that Russia basically invaded Georgia only a couple of years ago[1]

And I suppose that civilian casualties in the war/occupation of Iraq could count, as the numbers are literally in the hundreds of thousands, but it's not exactly at the forefront of the public's mind (at least in the UK).

Not to mention that Russia bombed cities full of civilians.

Edit: Don't worry it's not in the forefront of the American public's mind either! :D

...

Damn.

.
Wow, wow, wait... I was under the impression that Georgia went after the pretty illegally held South Ossetia regions and invaded Russia to get them back, only to be squashed by Russia itself and literally raped from the inside. With guns. And lots and lots of mortar shells.

Esotera:
Whilst not exactly that horrible, everyone seems to have conveniently forgotten that Russia basically invaded Georgia only a couple of years ago[1]

And I suppose that civilian casualties in the war/occupation of Iraq could count, as the numbers are literally in the hundreds of thousands, but it's not exactly at the forefront of the public's mind (at least in the UK).

Ehhh.. Thats a bit of an icky issue. The only one to put all the blame on the dirty Russians was George Bush. An Independant report (From the EU) clearly shows that Georgia began bombing the capital of their neighbor, Russia moved in to defend their peacekeepers and in an effort to declaw Georgia moved further in than what they were legally allowed to and started wreaking havoc in Georgian militarycamps and cities.

Georgia could have stood by and done nothing and gotten the full support of the international community, instead they chose to gather up 2000 militants at the border, fire mortargrenades and artillery at apartmentbuildings where Civilians were sheltered. They werent without blame for the war, it was an illegal war and both sides were just about equally responsible for it. Russia was just bigger and had more military.

That being said it 'was' an act of aggresion to retake illegaly held territory... But theese days that doesnt really work. You cant attack someone and expect people to back you when they counter-attack.

TheIronRuler:

Frission:

Esotera:
Whilst not exactly that horrible, everyone seems to have conveniently forgotten that Russia basically invaded Georgia only a couple of years ago[1]

And I suppose that civilian casualties in the war/occupation of Iraq could count, as the numbers are literally in the hundreds of thousands, but it's not exactly at the forefront of the public's mind (at least in the UK).

Not to mention that Russia bombed cities full of civilians.

Edit: Don't worry it's not in the forefront of the American public's mind either! :D

...

Damn.

.
Wow, wow, wait... I was under the impression that Georgia went after the pretty illegally held South Ossetia regions and invaded Russia to get them back, only to be squashed by Russia itself and literally raped from the inside. With guns. And lots and lots of mortar shells.

Not really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Storimans

Then again it's Wikipedia. There was some conflicted reports. From what I heard Russia illegally did a military attack. Although I won't deny that the Georgians were the ones who ended up dying the most. It was a pro russian Georgian province which Georgia tried to take back. Then the Georgians were raped from the inside.

Months beforehand Russia was itching for a fight. I also suspect they attacked for reasons that aren't really altruistic.
Edit: It's complicated. I don't have a good enough understanding.

Nikolaz72:

Esotera:
Whilst not exactly that horrible, everyone seems to have conveniently forgotten that Russia basically invaded Georgia only a couple of years ago[1]

And I suppose that civilian casualties in the war/occupation of Iraq could count, as the numbers are literally in the hundreds of thousands, but it's not exactly at the forefront of the public's mind (at least in the UK).

Ehhh.. Thats a bit of an icky issue. The only one to put all the blame on the dirty Russians was George Bush. An Independant report (From the EU) clearly shows that Georgia began bombing the capital of their neighbor, Russia moved in to defend their peacekeepers and in an effort to declaw Georgia moved further in than what they were legally allowed to and started wreaking havoc in Georgian militarycamps and cities.

Georgia could have stood by and done nothing and gotten the full support of the international community, instead they chose to gather up 2000 militants at the border, fire mortargrenades and artillery at apartmentbuildings where Civilians were sheltered. They werent without blame for the war, it was an illegal war and both sides were just about equally responsible for it. Russia was just bigger and had more military.

That being said it 'was' an act of aggresion to retake illegaly held territory... But theese days that doesnt really work. You cant attack someone and expect people to back you when they counter-attack.

.
Yep, I agree fully.

Frission:

TheIronRuler:

Frission:

Not to mention that Russia bombed cities full of civilians.

Edit: Don't worry it's not in the forefront of the American public's mind either! :D

...

Damn.

.
Wow, wow, wait... I was under the impression that Georgia went after the pretty illegally held South Ossetia regions and invaded Russia to get them back, only to be squashed by Russia itself and literally raped from the inside. With guns. And lots and lots of mortar shells.

Not really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Storimans

Then again it's Wikipedia. There was some conflicted reports. From what I heard Russia illegally did a military attack. Although I won't deny that the Georgians were the ones who ended up dying the most. It was a pro russian Georgian province which Georgia tried to take back. Then the Georgians were raped from the inside.

Months beforehand Russia was itching for a fight. I also suspect they attacked for reasons that are really altruistic.

.
Nein, Nein, Nein!


Russia had puppet states carved from Georgia following the 2001~2003 conflicts there. Georgia wanted them back, so they attacked them.

Nikolaz72:

Ehhh.. Thats a bit of an icky issue. The only one to put all the blame on the dirty Russians was George Bush. An Independant report (From the EU) clearly shows that Georgia began bombing the capital of their neighbor, Russia moved in to defend their peacekeepers and in an effort to declaw Georgia moved further in than what they were legally allowed to and started wreaking havoc in Georgian militarycamps and cities.

Georgia could have stood by and done nothing and gotten the full support of the international community, instead they chose to gather up 2000 militants at the border, fire mortargrenades and artillery at apartmentbuildings where Civilians were sheltered. They werent without blame for the war, it was an illegal war and both sides were just about equally responsible for it. Russia was just bigger and had more military.

That being said it 'was' an act of aggresion to retake illegaly held territory... But theese days that doesnt really work. You cant attack someone and expect people to back you when they counter-attack.

I'm not putting the blame on Russia, I just don't know that much about what caused it or what the Georgian armed forces did. It's pretty crazy that everyone has conveniently forgotten that it happened though.

Esotera:

Nikolaz72:

Ehhh.. Thats a bit of an icky issue. The only one to put all the blame on the dirty Russians was George Bush. An Independant report (From the EU) clearly shows that Georgia began bombing the capital of their neighbor, Russia moved in to defend their peacekeepers and in an effort to declaw Georgia moved further in than what they were legally allowed to and started wreaking havoc in Georgian militarycamps and cities.

Georgia could have stood by and done nothing and gotten the full support of the international community, instead they chose to gather up 2000 militants at the border, fire mortargrenades and artillery at apartmentbuildings where Civilians were sheltered. They werent without blame for the war, it was an illegal war and both sides were just about equally responsible for it. Russia was just bigger and had more military.

That being said it 'was' an act of aggresion to retake illegaly held territory... But theese days that doesnt really work. You cant attack someone and expect people to back you when they counter-attack.

I'm not putting the blame on Russia, I just don't know that much about what caused it or what the Georgian armed forces did. It's pretty crazy that everyone has conveniently forgotten that it happened though.

Georgia send in 2 tanks to retake a region held by Russia illegaly. Russia had 30... I think thats the end of the story really.

Iran-Contra, U.S. trained and commanded Anti-"Terrorist" group in Bolivia that murderered Che Guevara*, Chiquita (United Fruit Company) having the CIA oust the democratically elected Jacobo Arbenz, Vietnam being started by a falseflag attack by the US (some people dont even know that Vietnam WON!), I cant think of things that most people dont know about other nations... its obviously not an entirely open book but seemingly a damn sight more open than the history of the States. Its like anytime they do something indefensible, no one gets punished, they bury it and release a new McDonalds burger every so often until it all blows over.

* I bought "The Motorcycle Diaries" recently and my word, it is fantastic. Highly recommend buying it. But anyway, thats why I am mentioning all of this stuff that happened in the 50's and 60's.

Kinguendo:
Iran-Contra, U.S. trained and commanded Anti-"Terrorist" group in Bolivia that murderered Che Guevara*, Chiquita (United Fruit Company) having the CIA oust the democratically elected Jacobo Arbenz, Vietnam being started by a falseflag attack by the US (some people dont even know that Vietnam WON!), I cant think of things that most people dont know about other nations... its obviously not an entirely open book but seemingly a damn sight more open than the history of the States. Its like anytime they do something indefensible, no one gets punished, they bury it and release a new McDonalds burger every so often until it all blows over.

* I bought "The Motorcycle Diaries" recently and my word, it is fantastic. Highly recommend buying it. But anyway, thats why I am mentioning all of this stuff that happened in the 50's and 60's.

.
But McDonalds is Delicious!
Also about the fruit company... I thank Trrrrrropico for that. I actually dud into where they got their inspiration from, and that Dictatorship country running sim there's a company called "Fruitas"... There are also other very neat comparisons and name drops. The newer ones lost their fineness...

I did a similar thread a few months back but did specifically target the USA as the worse offender.

Basically the defence was "Most of this happened during the Cold War, it was a different time and we shouldn't be held responsible."

TheIronRuler:

Kinguendo:
Iran-Contra, U.S. trained and commanded Anti-"Terrorist" group in Bolivia that murderered Che Guevara*, Chiquita (United Fruit Company) having the CIA oust the democratically elected Jacobo Arbenz, Vietnam being started by a falseflag attack by the US (some people dont even know that Vietnam WON!), I cant think of things that most people dont know about other nations... its obviously not an entirely open book but seemingly a damn sight more open than the history of the States. Its like anytime they do something indefensible, no one gets punished, they bury it and release a new McDonalds burger every so often until it all blows over.

* I bought "The Motorcycle Diaries" recently and my word, it is fantastic. Highly recommend buying it. But anyway, thats why I am mentioning all of this stuff that happened in the 50's and 60's.

.
But McDonalds is Delicious!
Also about the fruit company... I thank Trrrrrropico for that. I actually dud into where they got their inspiration from, and that Dictatorship country running sim there's a company called "Fruitas"... There are also other very neat comparisons and name drops. The newer ones lost their fineness...

Are you referring to the Tonkin incident? I was the impression that the whole incident was because of a nervous sensor operator and not a single missile was shot that day, they just thought they were attacked. In other words U.S ships lost to a whale. The CIA has done some shitty things.

You should see "The Fog of War". It's an interesting film. It's like the memoirs of McNamara. I don't like the man, but the interviews were interesting. I wish those at the white house had learned from his "ten lessons of war. There might not have been an Iraq war.

I should thus get the motorcycle diaries and tropico.

Overhead:
I did a similar thread a few months back but did specifically target the USA as the worse offender.

Basically the defence was "Most of this happened during the Cold War, it was a different time and we shouldn't be held responsible."

I'm trying to avoid that. The U.S is fun to use because of the incongruity between their stated ideals and their most often horrible actions, but they're not the only offender.

My own country did the Algerian war, where they tortured and killed militants.

Torture leaves a scar on a country. Sartre said it best.

Frission:

TheIronRuler:

Kinguendo:
Iran-Contra, U.S. trained and commanded Anti-"Terrorist" group in Bolivia that murderered Che Guevara*, Chiquita (United Fruit Company) having the CIA oust the democratically elected Jacobo Arbenz, Vietnam being started by a falseflag attack by the US (some people dont even know that Vietnam WON!), I cant think of things that most people dont know about other nations... its obviously not an entirely open book but seemingly a damn sight more open than the history of the States. Its like anytime they do something indefensible, no one gets punished, they bury it and release a new McDonalds burger every so often until it all blows over.

* I bought "The Motorcycle Diaries" recently and my word, it is fantastic. Highly recommend buying it. But anyway, thats why I am mentioning all of this stuff that happened in the 50's and 60's.

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But McDonalds is Delicious!
Also about the fruit company... I thank Trrrrrropico for that. I actually dud into where they got their inspiration from, and that Dictatorship country running sim there's a company called "Fruitas"... There are also other very neat comparisons and name drops. The newer ones lost their fineness...

Are you referring to the Tonkin incident? I was the impression that the whole incident was because of a nervous sensor operator and not a single missile was shot that day, they just thought they were attacked. In other words U.S ships lost to a whale. CIA has done some shitty things.

You should see "The Fog of War". It's an interesting film. It's on McNamara. I don't like the man, but the interviews were interesting. I wish those at the white house had learned from his "ten lessons of war. There might not have been an Iraq war.

I should thus get the motorcycle diaries and tropico.

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Nah, it was an outright lie (the second attack).

I will look for that. The video-games really do take the era of the cold war and bloody romanticize it with pitch black humor and Caribbean music, so if you like RTS games you should give it a spin. Avoid the second though, it's a similar game but it's about pirates.
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*shrugs*
Go figure.

On a related but slightly different note, why do you think all of this shit goes unnoticed by people, but the occasional conflict becomes a pop-culture phenomenon, like Invisible Children in Uganda or the genocide in Darfur?

I mean, public awareness is important and all, and those are important causes... but why is it that your average undergrad (at least 'round these parts) probably thinks those are the only problem spots on the planet?

What about the Guatemalan Civil War?

In 1954 the CIA sponsored a coup against Guatemalan president Arbenz Guzman heralding in Military rule. For the next 25 years the Guatemalan Junta carried out a campaign of assassinations and terror against dissidents. Then in 1980 it turned to ethnic cleansing in the countryside. The world only found out about it after the firebombing of the Spanish Embassy, and the Spanish Ambassador escaped to tell about it. In the end 200 000 people were dead and over a million displaced.

And do you know who gave aid, weapons and training to the Guatemalan Military during this period? That's right, the USA...

Uszi:
On a related but slightly different note, why do you think all of this shit goes unnoticed by people, but the occasional conflict becomes a pop-culture phenomenon, like Invisible Children in Uganda or the genocide in Darfur?

I mean, public awareness is important and all, and those are important causes... but why is it that your average undergrad (at least 'round these parts) probably thinks those are the only problem spots on the planet?

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It's hard for Hollywood to make heart-felt movies about East Timor, Belarus or Iran-Contra.

Some subjects can't be romanticized, or maybe... nobody actually had the balls to try and do it.

First off, OP. I really like this thread. Such IR topics that nobody ever talks about are as interesting (and as cynical sometimes) as it can get - especially as they don't usually get discussed that much around here. Suffice to say, I sincerely hope to get a lot of interesting information out of here.

Now for something I know a little bit about and nobody ever mentions in a longer article: DR Congo.

A country the size of western Europe, it had been given to the Belgian king Leopold II in the Berlin conference of 1884 as personal property because, evidently, the French and English couldn't allow each other to get this rather large chunk of land and thus decided to hand it over to someone completely different. A country that was and still is ridiculously blessed with natural resources such as diamonds, copper, coltan (an ore incorporating tantalum which is used for modern high-yield capacitors in mobile phones for instance) and most importantly for the 19th century: rubber vines. A lot of them in fact, such that the country became profitable following high demand at the end of the 19th century. Only problem with that: the administration of the colonial property squeezed every single ounce of strength from the indigenous workforce they could. To such a degree that it quickly devolved into plain barbarism: people who couldn't manage their collection rates were punished with death. Since bullets were expensive, the local police force had to collect the severed hands of the offenders to show that the bullets weren't wasted. Result was that it quickly became customary for the local administrators to collect cut-off hands from the population in an attempt to meet their quotas or explain their failure, exemplified by nice photos such as this. Following such and similar practices, the population of the country fell sharply ranging from 15% to a half of the maybe 30 million inhabitants at the start of Leopold's rule till 1924.[1]

Democratically elected first president after the Belgian state[2] backed off and the country became independent in 1960 was named Patrice Lumumba. Suffice to say, the Belgians weren't exactly happy about the process of their break up and with the help from Belgian commandos (and presumably the CIA) Lumumba was disposed of and power channeled into the hands of Mobutu Sese Seko whose cleptocratic dictatorship[3] controlled the country[4] till 1990, seemingly with a lot of goodwill from the US administration who was supporting him as a bastion against communist influence in africa.

With crumbling support from it's international partners following the end of the cold war, the country became more and more unstable with tensions between their numerous tribes rising and opposition to the dictatorship mounting quickly. After Mobutu promised multiparty elections already in 1990 he clung to power and was finally chased off by a rebel group under the rule of Laurent Desire Kabila. Enter Rwanda. Unfortunately for the country, neighbouring Rwanda just outside it's eastern border had it's fair share of cruelties during and after the events following the Rwandan Genocide of the Hutu at the Tutsi in 1994. Following the genocide, Rwanda eventually quickly became controlled by the victims i.e. the Tutsi, leading to a massive influx of refugees from both Tutsi and Hutu fearing retribution into the eastern regions of the DR congo. Subsequently, those regions became even more unstable, leading to various rebel groups popping up and fighting for control in the inaccessible jungles, financing themselves notably through calculated exploitation of the rich ressources in the east.[5]

In fact, Rwanda had backed the rebel movement of Kabila to a significant degree and had in this way not only secured it's fair share of profits and control over the raging Hutu in the east but also succeeded in radiating it's influence to the west african coast. Too bad other countries on the continent didn't like Rwanda's involvement one bit and decided to lend their support to the beleaguered government, thus creating what is commonly referred to as the "African World War" or the Second Congo War. Five years of fighting lead to approximately 5.4 million dead making this the deadliest conflict since the end of WW2, with Uganda, Burundi and Rwanda standing accused of systemic exploitation of the DR Congos riches by the UN SC in 2001. In 2003 a peace agreement was finally reached with a transitional government led by Joseph Kabila, the son of Laurent Desire Kabila who was assassinated in 2001.

In 2006 the second democratic elections in the DR Congo were held, strongly protected by European forces and the largest UN-force ever to grace a country - MONUC which stationed there since 1999. Still, tensions and fighting in the eastern provinces of the DR congo continue to this day and the capabilities of the government, as well as the MONUC is doubtful while Rwanda's hand is still deep in the cookie jar

Don't such stories just brighten up the day?

Sources: Unfortunately, I can't recall them, since it's been years since I did research for that topic. However, I checked everything in here with Wikipedia and some of the sources therein which share my perception. For anyone interested in the whole Lumumba issue, there is also a movie about that.

[1] Numbers are from Wikipedia
[2] Yes you read that right. Remember that photo? A journalistic effort done by mainly british journalists publicised a lot of the cruelties going on in the state at that time, eventually leading to the colonial property being taken from the king and given to the Belgian state in 1908
[3] And cleptocratic isn't exaggerated: I recall reading a story about some general who sold some of the state's jet fighters to fill his personal coffers
[4] Which was renamed to Zaire by Mobutu in 1971
[5] See for example a report from Global Witness, an advocacy group who is specialized in analyzing and revealing the role of resource exploitation in conflicts and played a significant role in revealing the issues with conflict diamonds in Sierra Leone

Dajosch:

-snip-

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Not to be confused with the Republic of Congo, a previously French colonial possession now in the hands of a bloody dictator. It borders the DRC and came into indepnedence around the early 60s... ever since it had been fucked in the ass by instability of Marxist , Military and Democratic regimes turned Dictatorships.
Yay.

Anyway, it was a great read by I knew most of the material beforehand. Thanks for summarizing the whole thing so neatly!

Are there any events that you read in this thread which you weren't aware of beforehand?

Residential schools, a sick thing that most people aren't fully aware of here in Canada. Although as I understand the US won't even admit to them ever existing

Orange12345:
Residential schools, a sick thing that most people aren't fully aware of here in Canada. Although as I understand the US won't even admit to them ever existing

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Reminds me of Russia old military system where it in turn culturally killed parts of its minority population by press-ganging individuals into service at a young (16) age, some even going as low as 12 and literally stripping away from their family and culture, giving them training and a proper Russian education. They were let go somewhere around their mid 20s.

The human mind is very good at forgetting bad things. That is why we are nostalgic, we forget things suck. Only the worst of the worst is remembered.

If you only remember the bad in life, you may be suffering from Depression.

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