16 Egypt border guards killed, Islamists suspected

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This news is *now* 6 minutes old...

16 Egypt border guards killed, Islamists suspected

7:11 p.m. Sunday, August 5, 2012

EL-ARISH, Egypt - Masked gunmen killed 16 Egyptian soldiers Sunday at a checkpoint along the border with Gaza and Israel, the first such attack on troops - and then the attackers drove off, crashing into Israel, officials said.

Egypt blamed Islamist militants from Gaza and Egypt's troubled Sinai Peninsula. President Mohammed Morsi said the attackers "will pay dearly."

The Israeli military said the attack was part of a plot to abduct an Israeli soldier, and two vehicles commandeered by the attackers crashed into Israel, where one blew up.

In a statement, Israel's Defense Minister Ehud Barak said Israel's military and the internal security agency "thwarted an attack that could have injured many. The militants' attack methods again raise the need for determined Egyptian action to enforce security and prevent terror in the Sinai."

The attack took place around sunset in the Egyptian border town of Rafah, when the troops were having the traditional meal at the end of the daily fast during the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.

Egyptian state TV said the attack on the checkpoint was carried out by Islamist militants. The report said 16 troops were killed in the attack coordinated between Palestinians who entered Egypt from Gaza and Egyptians in Sinai.

It was one of the bloodiest attacks in Sinai in years and the deadliest against Egyptian troops, underlining the growing lawlessness of the Egyptian territory, where security forces have become targets of militants, some loosely linked with al-Qaida.

http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/16-egypt-border-guards-1491446.html

RIP. So, what do you think about this news?

Posted in your other threads:

Donuthole:
It's bad.

Seriously, what do you expect anyone to say? It's obviously awful when some asshole religious fanatic kills a bunch of innocent people for no discernible reason.

Donuthole:
Are we going to get a new thread every time terrorists do something shitty?

Regurgitating news reports with a "what do you think?" does not a discussion make.

Isn't "Islamists" a bit too broad of a term?

nm, misread.

Wolverine18:
Oh is Donuthole really Danyal? I hadn't realized that, but it makes sense.

Huh? What are you talking about? I quoted myself from what I posted in Danyal's two other threads from today's apparent Islamapalooza.

Huh? What are you talking about? I quoted myself from what I posted in Danyal's two other threads from today's apparent Islamapalooza.

Nevermind, apparently I can't read, sorry about that.

Danyal, I feel like you're trying to make some sort of a statement with all of these "terrorist killing news report" + "what do you think?" threads, but they are all far too vague to have any sort of effect.

Yes, these are bad things. I highly doubt anyone is going to argue otherwise. Are you just going to keep throwing these threads at the wall and waiting for something to stick, or are you going to hurry up and make your point? Because you are starting to get into spam territory.

Lilani:
Danyal, I feel like you're trying to make some sort of a statement with all of these "terrorist killing news report" + "what do you think?" threads, but they are all far too vague to have any sort of effect.

Yes, these are bad things. I highly doubt anyone is going to argue otherwise. Are you just going to keep throwing these threads at the wall and waiting for something to stick, or are you going to hurry up and make your point? Because you are starting to get into spam territory.

I have a feeling I know damn well what his point is; however, I'll wait for him to attempt to make it.

While it would be wonderful if a point or overarching theme became apparent, there's no need to bitch Danyal out about it. We have several other thread makers who just post articles with variations of "what do you think?" that are usually about the same topics. Ultrasomething does it with Republicans who are actin the fool.

It's not really a bad thing either, since it's nice to stay informed and talk about recent events and attacks.

That said, hai hai, it's bad.

Donuthole:

I have a feeling I know damn well what his point is; however, I'll wait for him to attempt to make it.

You should share it with the class, otherwise you can just go "EUREKA" at the grand reveal regardless of if you knew or not, which ain't cool yo.

The only point I can get from Danyal is that terrorists are bad and he dislikes them.

Gold:
While it would be wonderful if a point or overarching theme became apparent, there's no need to bitch Danyal out about it. We have several other thread makers who just post articles with variations of "what do you think?" that are usually about the same topics. Ultrasomething does it with Republicans who are actin the fool.

As I said in one of these threads (maybe it was this one, I can't be arsed to look), posting a full news article and then saying "so whatcha think?" does not a discussion make. Perhaps any speculation on Danyal's motives could be squelched if he, yanno, gave his take on it before opening the floor to discussion.

Gold:
It's not really a bad thing either, since it's nice to stay informed and talk about recent events and attacks.

Absolutely agree; however, three threads in the span of an hour with nothing added to the discussion but verbatim news report postings is a little much.

Gold:

You should share it with the class, otherwise you can just go "EUREKA" at the grand reveal regardless of if you knew or not, which ain't cool yo.

Nah, I don't like spoilers.

Gold:
The only point I can get from Danyal is that terrorists are bad and he dislikes them.

I'm hoping that's all it is.

Gold:
The only point I can get from Danyal is that terrorists are bad and he dislikes them.

From what I've gathered from other posters, Danyal has a history of making anti-Islamic statements, so most people look at his posts about anything relating to Islam with suspicion.

I myself haven't seen the posts in question, I stopped paying attention to him when it reposted the same topic about being immortal if you live to 2040 or whatever and his talk of the singulairty.

Okay, actually on topic now. Terrorists are bad, water is wet. There really doesn't seem to be much to say besides Egypt now getting targeted at the border.

Gold:

Donuthole:

I have a feeling I know damn well what his point is; however, I'll wait for him to attempt to make it.

The only point I can get from Danyal is that terrorists are bad and he dislikes them.

I think it might be more of a " Islamists are bad and I dislike them" kind of thing.

Shaoken:
From what I've gathered from other posters, Danyal has a history of making anti-Islamic statements, so most people look at his posts about anything relating to Islam with suspicion.

When he first got here he was very anti-Islam, often all but announcing that all Muslims are extremists and terrorists, and making other such unsubstantiated claims for the sake of proving how utterly terrible the religion is. He calmed down on that after a while (after getting vilified more than once for holding such ludicrously ignorant views), and went through several other phases afterward. First it was religion in general, then bestiality (which actually got out of hand and ended up getting him banned, but the mods decided to give him a second chance), then the singularity...and now it seems we're back at how terrible Islam is.

At least we know what to expect for this next cycle, anyway.

Oh, and he likes to tie his threads together. He'll make a vague topic out to get certain responses from people, then make another topic replying to that topic pointing out how right he was (but these usually end up backfiring because it's not that hard to tell exactly what he's after). Or if the discussion in his thread isn't going exactly the way he wanted, he'll make essentially the same topic again and raise a more specific question.

Lilani:
Danyal, I feel like you're trying to make some sort of a statement with all of these "terrorist killing news report" + "what do you think?" threads, but they are all far too vague to have any sort of effect.

Yes, these are bad things. I highly doubt anyone is going to argue otherwise. Are you just going to keep throwing these threads at the wall and waiting for something to stick, or are you going to hurry up and make your point?

You mean, I have to blame something or someone? Well, what do you think I'm blaming for this? You know what I think the problem is.

Lilani:
Because you are starting to get into spam territory.

Yesterday, at least 45 + 16 + 8 = 69 human beings got murdered by Islamists, all over the Islamic world. That's exactly the amount of people that got killed on Utoya by Breivik. I'm telling you about that and now it's spam?

Donuthole:
As I said in one of these threads (maybe it was this one, I can't be arsed to look), posting a full news article and then saying "so whatcha think?" does not a discussion make. Perhaps any speculation on Danyal's motives could be squelched if he, yanno, gave his take on it before opening the floor to discussion.

The conflict between Arabs and Israelis, Muslims and Jews, is not the only major conflict between Muslims and others. On the contrary, military contests along the borders of lands dominated by Muslims are pervasive. Samuel Huntington, a Harvard political scientist, observed, "The overwhelming majority of fault line conflicts have taken place along the boundary looping across Eurasia and Africa that separates Muslims from non-Muslims. While at the macro or global level of world politics, the primary clash of civilizations is between the West and the rest, at the micro or local level it is between Islam and the others."[27] Among the conflicts enumerated by Huntington are the Bosnians versus the Serbs, the Turks versus the Greeks, Turks versus Armenians, Azerbaijanis versus Armenians, Tatars versus Russians, Afghans and Tajiks versus Russians, Uighurs versus Han Chinese, Pakistanis versus Indians, Sudanese Arabs versus southern Sudanese Christians and animists, and northern Muslim Nigerians versus southern Christian Nigerians.

Indeed, everywhere along the perimeter of the Muslim-ruled bloc, Muslims have problems living peaceably with their neighbors. Muslims may only comprise one-fifth of the world's population, but in this decade and the last, they have been far more involved in inter-group violence than the people of any other civilization.

http://www.meforum.org/1813/the-middle-easts-tribal-dna

From this OP: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.384224-Nigerian-Suicide-Bomb-Attack-kills-Eight-probably-Islamist-Sect-Boko-Haram

Donuthole:
Absolutely agree; however, three threads in the span of an hour with nothing added to the discussion but verbatim news report postings is a little much.

69 human beings got murdered.

Donuthole:
I'm hoping that's all it is.

Because identifying the real problem is not allowed? We'll just have to say "terrorists, meh, that's how it is and will forever be"?

Lilani:
often all but announcing that all Muslims are extremists and terrorists,

Oh look I've learned something from Katatori!

'Citation needed'

Lilani:
then bestiality (which actually got out of hand and ended up getting him banned, but the mods decided to give him a second chance),

What? I was never warned, suspended or banned for anything related to bestiality. I got permabanned for advocating artificial child porn.

Danyal:

Yesterday, at least 45 + 16 + 8 = 69 human beings got murdered by Islamists, all over the Islamic world. That's exactly the amount of people that got killed on Utoya by Breivik. I'm telling you about that and now it's spam?

Considering this is a DISCUSSION forum, not a DANYAL TELLS US THE NEWS FORUM, kindly get to the point.

Danyal:

69 human beings got murdered.

Yes they did. Fucking horrible how they went, too. Didn't need 3 threads in the span of an hour to tell us that.

Danyal:

Because identifying the real problem is not allowed? We'll just have to say "terrorists, meh, that's how it is and will forever be"?

Indulge me. What's the "real problem"?

This just in, several escapists butthurt; two threads about terrorism have claimed responsibility.

OT: It would suck if Egypt started to experience more events like this, as from what I've understood they've been relatively stable since the revolution. I'm not really sure how we can discuss the politics without a brief comment on the news article though...

Danyal:
-snip-

I refuse to play the quote splitting game today, so I'll keep it simple. You made three threads in a span of about 15 minutes. In not a single one of those threads did you bring up a purpose or point apart from "Here is some terrible news, react to it." You didn't even give us the courtesy of giving your own opinion. If you want to make a point and start a specific discussion, then start a discussion. Don't throw a bunch of topics out and expect everything to fall into place. Make one topic, make your point, and get the discussion rolling. Don't sit there and act like you're making some grand point by telling us what we already knew--people who shouldn't be dying are in a war that shouldn't be happening. If "identifying the real problem" is what you wanted to do, then you should have brought it up. When you make multiple topics for no apparent reason, then yes. It is spam.

And on your last two points: From what I understood, your bestiality thread lead to a discussion on artificial child porn, a mod locked it, you re-opened it, and that was the last bar on your forum health meter. So as I said, your discussions got out of hand.

And from a thread from long ago, in which you obstinately refuse to admit not all Muslims follow the violent orders from the Koran.

Danyal:

Comando96:

Step 1: "Us" and "Them"
Step 2: Obey Orders
Step 3: Do harm to "Them"
Step 4: "Stand up" or "Stand by"
Step 5: Exterminate.

Step 1: "Us" and "Them"

3:110
You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah.

98:6
Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.

Step 2: Obey Orders

Islam is a verbal noun originating from the triliteral root s-l-m which forms a large class of words mostly relating to concepts of wholeness, completion and bonding/joining.[16] In a religious context it means "voluntary submission to God".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam#Etymology_and_meaning

Step 3: Do harm to "Them"

9:29
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

Step 4: "Stand up" or "Stand by"

4:75
And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?"

Step 5: Exterminate.

2:191
And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing.

All quotes from the Quran are taken from Quran.com.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.336771-This-is-what-happens-when-you-court-fear?page=2

Esotera:
This just in, several escapists butthurt; two threads about terrorism have claimed responsibility.

Heh.

I can see why people might be annoyed by Danyal, but it's not like the rest of the forum is particularly impressive either. How many fucking gun threads do we need?

Danyal:
SNIP

We get it Danyal, the west is the best and Islam sucks, we don't care if you think this Danyal, the problem lies in the fact that you keep posting news articles about Islamic extremists, never make your point, which pretty much everyone on the forum knows, yet you never say it, instead just saying "discuss".

I understand what you are trying to do, in the form of news articles, try to make it self apparent that Islamic religion and culture are violent by nature through the use of current news. I may disagree with you but it saves us a whole lot of time if you just made your point in the thread.

"Religion is not just a set of practices or a single monolithic belief system.

Religion is a response to revelation. Different people respond to revelation differently.

We can't continue to assume that each religion represents only one set of ideas.

The protesters are inspired by Islam.

Those who fight the protesters are inspired by Islam.

The charity work in Bangladesh is inspired by Islam.

The corrupt government of Bangladesh is inspired by Islam.

It is NOT JUST ONE THING.

As with every revelation, some people respond by making the world better, and some respond by making the world worse. Which is true of religious revelations and secular ones alike.

Revelation isn't the problem, people are."

What amazes me about all this is that there has been no low-content warning in any of these threads. So much for unbiased moderation.

Katatori-kun:
What amazes me about all this is that there has been no low-content warning in any of these threads. So much for unbiased moderation.

What!?

"16 human beings got murdered" and you're complaining about low-content?

Nobody complains that there is a thread about the Sikh Temple Shooting.

If I complain about Islam, I'm a racist.
If you say that the murder of 16 Egyptians is low content, are you racist?

I mean, if the news was "16 Dutch Muslims got murdered, right-wing-extremists suspected", nobody would have complained that that was low-content.

Low content doesn't have anything to do with the story, it's about your effort in making the post. You didn't post any content, you just copypasted someone else to springboard into hate-mongering. Again.

Katatori-kun:
Low content doesn't have anything to do with the story, it's about your effort in making the post. You didn't post any content, you just copypasted someone else

And changed the fonts, selected parts of the story etc. to keep it readable. And yeah, I tried to provide some objective news. Replace 'Egypt border guards' with 'Dutch Muslims' and 'Islamists' with 'Right-wing extremists' and you would not have had any problems with this thread.

Katatori-kun:
to springboard into hate-mongering. Again.

Citation needed.

Danyal:

Yesterday, at least 45 + 16 + 8 = 69 human beings got murdered by Islamists, all over the Islamic world.

That's nice. How many were killed by Christians? By non religious gangs?

I'm telling you about that and now it's spam?

Because basically all you did was plagiarizer and article from somewhere else (hey, isn't that a forum rules violation?). If we wanted to read the news, we'd read the news on a news site. You spamming random stories with no discussion topic is spam.

What? I was never warned, suspended or banned for anything related to bestiality. I got permabanned for advocating artificial child porn.

If you were permabanned why are you still here?

Undoubtedly tragic and troubling but there will be more of this before it gets better. Until Egypt's civilian government can establish some semblance of control over the military and establish their legitimacy there's going to be more of these kinds of attacks. Militant groups are capitalizing on the fact that the military is still largely in control of Egypt and people's discontent with this state of affairs in addition to the physical weakness of the guards likely to occur as a result of fasting for Ramadan. When a legitimate and popular government is established the grumblings of the masses will die down and what support these militants had will bleed away.

Being able to properly police the Sinai would be helpful as well. Israeli concern about keeping the Sinai demilitarized is probably more harmful to resolving this problem than not though thankfully it looks like they're relaxing their stance a bit. Nonetheless, creating a stable and legitimate government is the most important remedy to this problem.

Danyal:
And changed the fonts, selected parts of the story etc. to keep it readable. And yeah, I tried to provide some objective news. Replace 'Egypt border guards' with 'Dutch Muslims' and 'Islamists' with 'Right-wing extremists' and you would not have had any problems with this thread.

Yes, huge killings in war-torn countries aren't news while huge killings in generally peaceful countries are news. If that's the point you were trying to make, then I'd like to add to this topic of revelations by also pointing out that the thing in the sky (you know, the big round one that comes out in the daytime and makes a whole lot of light) is a star. Crazy, huh?

Seriously. If that's the only point you wanted to make, then I'm afraid we all learned this a long, long time ago. There isn't even a discussion in that any more, it's common sense. Everybody knows that, it's how the news works. Business as usual is not news. Something unusual is news. You don't see gang violence getting reported on the front page of papers in big cities either for that exact reason. Even if business as usual is inhumanly terrible, it's still not news. If we reported every murder that occurs on the planet, there would be no other news. The world would cease to function because nothing else would ever be able to be communicated.

I feel like explaining this to you so comprehensively should be an insult to your intelligence, but apparently it's not because apparently you've never had this talk before. I'm not saying it's how things should be, but it is how things are.

thaluikhain:

Esotera:
This just in, several escapists butthurt; two threads about terrorism have claimed responsibility.

Heh.

I can see why people might be annoyed by Danyal, but it's not like the rest of the forum is particularly impressive either. How many fucking gun threads do we need?

These threads are genuinely the best part of R&P at the minute, it's been pretty slow lately and a lot of great posters have stopped contributing. It's quite funny how the majority of people take the bait (although I know I used to)

OT: In a probably vain attempt to keep this thread on-topic because everyone seems to be too busy getting butthurt over the OP, does anyone think that the millitary's key role in the Egyptian revolution has perhaps diminished the number of attacks so far compared to countries such as Libya?

Esotera:

These threads are genuinely the best part of R&P at the minute, it's been pretty slow lately and a lot of great posters have stopped contributing. It's quite funny how the majority of people take the bait (although I know I used to)

OT: In a probably vain attempt to keep this thread on-topic because everyone seems to be too busy getting butthurt over the OP, does anyone think that the millitary's key role in the Egyptian revolution has perhaps diminished the number of attacks so far compared to countries such as Libya?

Yes and no. No doubt the military's role in preventing a total societal collapse in Egypt has helped in terms of stability and thus reducing the level of violence. I do think though that the military's heavy-handedness in terms of dictating governance just as it always has is definitely the cause for some of the violence as militants garner support from the disillusioned citizens.

An interesting point about Libya though is that things have been quite violent especially considering the fact that there was a transitional government already in place which puts it far ahead of say Syria. The situations aren't totally analogous but it does worry me how badly Syria may fair with its lack of a united opposition if al-Assad can't ride this out.

Esotera:
OT: In a probably vain attempt to keep this thread on-topic because everyone seems to be too busy getting butthurt over the OP, does anyone think that the millitary's key role in the Egyptian revolution has perhaps diminished the number of attacks so far compared to countries such as Libya?

The problem with getting Danyal's topics "on-topic" is that he never really presented a topic in the first place. He asked us what we think, and we shared.

This happens a lot in his threads, because he likes to grandstand and post topics in obnoxious ways in order to manipulate his audience and draw specific reactions from them. Of course the it's thinly-veiled and easy to spot, so the topics derail from any sort of constructive direction and crumble into a bunch of people getting pissed at Danyal for trying to act like some manipulative puppetmaster who can trick people into proving his points for him.

Wolverine18:
That's nice. How many were killed by Christians? By non religious gangs?

I don't know, make a thread about it! :D

Wolverine18:
Because basically all you did was plagiarizer and article from somewhere else (hey, isn't that a forum rules violation?). If we wanted to read the news, we'd read the news on a news site. You spamming random stories with no discussion topic is spam.

Lol, as if 'News story, what do you think about this?' is uncommon here.

Wolverine18:
If you were permabanned why are you still here?

What do you think?

Lilani:
Yes, huge killings in war-torn countries aren't news while huge killings in generally peaceful countries are news.

Isn't it strange that nearly the entire Islamic world is war-torn? Nigeria, Yemen, Egypt - and I've no problems finding similar news stories from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Palestine?

When I search 'bomb' with Google News, it's Islam, Islam, Islam, Islam, Islam. Okay, it's now A-bomb remembrance in Japan but the A-bomb wasn't dropped their this century. But the next news item is this...

Taliban bomb blast kills eight in Kabul

7 August 2012

A Taliban bomb killed eight people and wounded five on Tuesday when it struck a minibus in Kabul, police said, amid growing unrest in areas neighbouring the Afghan capital.

http://www.rnw.nl/english/bulletin/taliban-bomb-blast-kills-eight-kabul-0

...and the following one...

Bomb kills 3 security men, hurts many others in Balochistan‎

I don't even know what the hell 'Balochistan' is but I'm sure the problem is Islamic fundamentalists!

And ta-da, bigoted me is right again:

There was no claim of responsibility for the latest incident but the province suffers from Taliban attacks

http://dawn.com/2012/08/07/explosion-kills-four-baloch-constabulary-officials-in-turbat/

I mean, this is how my Google News looks every single day:

image

It's not...
Google News
-Spanish separatists bomb news radio
-Japanese sect blows up Buddhist temple
-South African white supremacists blow up black neighborhood
-Taliban attacks American convoy
-Frisian nationalists commit suicide attacks in Amsterdam

...and me singling out the Islamic attacks. It's every day *that picture*. Islamic Fundamentalists blow up stuff.

Did you know that there is an economic crisis every couple of decades? Maybe even every decade? That's just part of capitalism and globalization. Yet, everyone goes like IIIIT'S THE BANKERS' and IT'S THE 1%! and CAPITALISM HAS FAILED! and BAN BONUSES etc., etc., etc.

That's good. Although crisis is a part of the natural cycle, it's good to try and find out the cause. That's how we get out of a crisis.

Yet when we're talking about Islamic Fundamentalism, people say that it's just religious nutjobs and it's caused by poverty. When I try to show how it's linked to Islam, by talking about the only thing that binds all Muslims: Muhammad, and how his life and sayings are documented in the Quran and the Hadiths, I'm the crazy bigoted racist.

There is a big problem in the entire Islamic world, yet we refuse to investigate the problem. We must act like those fundamentalists are in total isolation from their surroundings - blaming anyone else but those *evil stupid fundamentalists* is racist and bigoted and discriminatory.

Look at what evilthecat has to say about a certain other problem...

evilthecat:
The golden example is the relationship between German nationalism and German anti-semitism in the 19th century. Once German historians started going back to Tacitus and his account of Arminius and saying "look, this prooves we have always been a distinct people with our own history and culture and ties to this land" then the inevitable subtext is "..and the Jews are not". We all know the results, I hope.

So no, nationalism isn't harmless. You can't simply separate it from its negative effects, because those effects are what happens when you start asserting the coherence of particular groups of people throughout history.

He isn't saying that all nationalists are evil anti-semetic genocidal bastards, but he does say that you 'cant simply separate it from its negative effects'. I think that a lot of those problems in the Middle East are partly caused by Islam, because it's hard to separate it from its negative effects. I think it's possible to separate them (although I believe the Singularity will fix it before slow cultural progress has fixed it) but we'll first have to study how they are linked.

Danyal:
-snip-

It's not bigoted to say a lot of violence is caused by Islam extremists. Nobody is saying that. Nobody has ever said that, and if they have they are wrong. But it is bigoted claim to say violence is inherent to Islam. Statistically are there more wars going on involving Islamic states than other states? Yes. Does that mean somehow "purging" the religion from existence (which in all of these discussions you have failed to mention exactly how that can even be accomplished) is the most enlightened way to approach the problem? No. That's like saying because statistically black people are more likely to commit crimes, we should lock all of them up in concentration camps or just "purge" them from society. It would have the same effect, after all. Fewer crimes. If that is how you want to approach Islam, that is how you should also apply all the rest of the world's problems that can be isolated to a single race or culture. It only makes sense.

This sounds so familiar...oh yeah, we already had this conversation. In that same topic I linked in that other post, I think. My how things have changed. You're still wanting to purge Islam and refusing to admit how terrible it would be if applied to every other problem in the world.

Lilani:
It's not bigoted to say a lot of violence is caused by Islam extremists. Nobody is saying that. Nobody has ever said that, and if they have they are wrong. But it is bigoted claim to say violence is inherent to Islam.

Evilthecat says you can't simple separate the negative effects of nationalism from nationalism. I say that you can't simply separate Islamic fundamentalism from Islam.

Second and third sentence in the Wikipedia article on Islamic Fundamentalism:

Definitions of the term vary. According to Christine L. Kettel, it is deemed problematic by those who suggest that Islamic belief requires all Muslims to be fundamentalists,[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_fundamentalism

Why is it bigoted to say that it isn't simple to separate Islam from violence? How have you studied Islam? Do you know everything about it? Read everything about it from A to Z and concluded that there is totally nothing violent in Islam?

Is Muhammad inherent to Islam?

If yes...

Bukhari:V4B52N54

"The Prophet said, 'Were it not for the believers who do not want me to leave them, I would certainly and always go forth in army units setting out in Allah's Cause. I would love to be martyred in Allah's Cause and then get resurrected and then get martyred, and then get resurrected again and then get martyred and then get resurrected again and then get martyred.'"

Is it bigoted to claim that Muhammad was violent man? Is it bigoted to claim that Muslims love Muhammad and strive to emulate him?

Lilani:
Statistically are there more wars going on involving Islamic states than other states? Yes. Does that mean somehow "purging" the religion from existence (which in all of these discussions you have failed to mention exactly how that can even be accomplished) is the most enlightened way to approach the problem? No. That's like saying because statistically black people are more likely to commit crimes, we should lock all of them up in concentration camps or just "purge" them from society. It would have the same effect, after all. Fewer crimes. If that is how you want to approach Islam, that is how you should also apply all the rest of the world's problems that can be isolated to a single race or culture. It only makes sense.

So basically there are two options in your worldview...
-a thing doesn't have problems
-a thing has problems and should be radically, violently physically purged from existence

...

"I think Libertarianism is wrong and harmful - if it ever were to get power, the poor would starve and die"
"You can't say that!"
"Why not?"
"Because you want to put Libertarians in concentration camps and purge them from society!"

Lilani:
This sounds so familiar...oh yeah, we already had this conversation. In that same topic I linked in that other post, I think. My how things have changed. You're still wanting to purge Islam and refusing to admit how terrible it would be if applied to every other problem in the world.

Oh yeah we already had this conversation. Look.

Danyal:
And yes, even if I am dictator of the entire world, I'll protect your right to believe. I'll protect your churches, mosques and temples.
I don't need cruel, drastic measures
to combat something as silly as religion.

The only thing someone needs to escape religion is good education.
If I'm the dictator of the entire world, everyone can visit public schools where God is never mentioned as the supreme dictator of the universe. It will be completely secular. In history class, we'll talk about all religions, and in science/biology class, we'll talk about evolution, about the big bang. And the children will be taught to be critical about everything, to question everything, and to live adogmatic.

Our entire world is globalized and modernized, but religion is still here and it has resisted too many changes. It doesn't make any sense anymore. And I hope, I really hope, that we will be able to trigger a new Enlightenment, where we can finally try to make sense of religion. Where we drop the idea that on blind faith alone we can know exactly what God wants, because this idea is nearly the only idea that can explain all the differences between all the religions.

I really, really hope that some kind of globalized religion emerges, a religion that tries to make sense of all holy books, that inspects all holy scriptures, that actually tries to figure out the truth.

I already told you that, yet you're still thinking that I want to lock up Muslims in concentration camps and purge them from society.

Danyal:
I already told you that, yet you're still thinking that I want to lock up Muslims in concentration camps and purge them from society.

Then let me ask you a very simple question: What is it that you want to do about these problems? You say Islam cannot be separated from fundamentalism, which you've well demonstrated is destructive. You keep saying the benefits do not outweigh the harm, you keep saying all of Islam should be blamed for the problems of the fundamentals. So of course I'm assuming you want to purge Islam from society--you constantly argue it's all bad, and you never offer any other suggestions. And according to your view of Islam, that appears to be the most logical solution. How do you think the problem should be solved? Give this a point, Danyal. Stop going on about the problems and give us your damned solution already.

Lilani:

Danyal:
I already told you that, yet you're still thinking that I want to lock up Muslims in concentration camps and purge them from society.

Then let me ask you a very simple question: What is it that you want to do about these problems? You say Islam cannot be separated from fundamentalism, which you've well demonstrated is destructive. You keep saying the benefits do not outweigh the harm, you keep saying all of Islam should be blamed for the problems of the fundamentals. So of course I'm assuming you want to purge Islam from society--you constantly argue it's all bad, and you never offer any other suggestions. And according to your view of Islam, that appears to be the most logical solution. How do you think the problem should be solved? Give this a point, Danyal. Stop going on about the problems and give us your damned solution already.

Find out exactly what parts from Islam are harmful. Make this clear to everyone. Also to Muslims. See what the Islamic community does with it. Embrace those who drop the harmful parts - criticize those who keep the harmful parts - punish those who embrace the illegal parts.

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