Why do people believe in the Bible?

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Im not trying to start a shitstorm here, but this bugs me.

This isnt nessessarily a "God" thread but rather its about the Bible.

When I was growing up I was a pretty fuckin smart kid. I was that kid who stayed in from recess to go to the library. And to be honest, the one time I got caught shoplifting I was caught taking a science book from a bookfare(i didnt steal anything else after that, learned my lesson), anyways as things go I learned more than I probably could handle at the time, but My family went to church and read the bible and all that evangelical stuff.

I had to go along with it, but every time i kept finding all this weird stuff that was conflicting with what I learned.

Nowadays I'm an athiest, and study pretty much the 2 things that broke me of being a religious person: Evolution(specifically Hominid Evolution), Physics(specifically astrophysics and the big bang/string theory).

I dont mind if people beleive in God, \by all means some people need a source of faith in their lives, but I cant understand how anyone could beleive in the Bible.

If youre a scientifically educated person... Genesis can be disproven without a shadow of a doubt, Metaphorically AND Literally.

The biggest problem I find when debating people about this isnt their actual beleifs, but their defenciveness and the lack of understanding of factual data.

The phrase "Well thats your opinion" i hear way to much as a cop out from religious people when i challenge them and they ask "WELL HOW DO YOU THINK IT HAPPENED SMARTY PANTS"

And when I comment back with actual facts, and sources they use the same cop out "Well thats your opinion." And no matter HOW MANY TIMES i present to people the way that things ACTUALLY happened, with verified scientific backing... "Well thats your opinion!"

I would honestly like to discuss with someone the whole reasonings behind these religous opinions without someone throwing out illegitimate reasonings or garbage debates.

So im asking honestly, how can someone beleive in the bible, when basic science easily disproves various parts of it with an inarguable amount of facts?

Is it a trend now to post in off topic R&P things?

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm too busy getting banned.

I agree with yuval but that aside you have to keep in mind most Christians don't believe in the old testament in fact the church has recognized the old testament is really just a bunch or stories with generally good morals. The only people who take the Old testament seriously are religious fanatics and people from the bible belt in the US.

I may not be Catholic anymore but I do recognize that there is in fact good things that can be pulled from the religion. I mean no matter how you cut it "Do onto others as you would have them do onto you" is just good advice.

aba1:
I agree with yuval but that aside you have to keep in mind most Christians don't believe in the old testament in fact the church has recognized the old testament is really just a bunch or stories with generally good morals. The only people who take the Old testament seriously are religious fanatics and people from the bible belt in the US.
I may not be Catholic anymore but I do recognize that there is in fact good things that can be pulled from the religion. I mean no matter how you cut it "Do onto others as you would have them do onto you" is just good advice.

This. I myself am a Catholic and I can safely say that most people in my religion don't believe that 90% of what's in the Old Testament actually happened (Noah's Ark, Jonah eaten by a whale, etc.), but rather that the stories represent teachings and advice.

The New Testament, however (that's the one mostly about Jesus), is seen as more truthful. Jesus did in fact live and was crucified for what the Jews saw as blasphemy.

But even if you don't believe in the miracles of Jesus (walking on water for one), you could probably appreciate his message, which is what Catholics and most other Christians see as the most important part of the Bible - Don't judge others, Be kind to everyone, Be thankful for what you have, Give to those who have less than you.

Ironically, the most 'avidly religious' people seem to forget what Jesus taught (don't fucking JUDGE OTHERS) and act like douche bags to people who don't agree with them nonetheless. Whoopsee!

I like most the messages it puts across, Mostly....

Several things to keep in mind when talking about the bible:

The different books in the bible, especially in the old testament, come from many different sources and were written by many, many different people. I think it's safe to say that some of them had absolutely no idea what they were saying or talking about, and had no divine encounters.

The bible has been rewritten, retranslated, and reinterpreted so many times that trying to get more specific meanings from it than just the general gist is an exercise in futility. Hell, even trying to get the general gist can be next to impossible for certain parts of the bible.

The bible was written thousands of years ago. Society was very, very different back then. The social messages that were being taught back then are not necessarily applicable to modern life, and the problems back then are often very different than the ones right now, and it can be impossible to know what was truly meant without a thorough knowledge of life in that period. Also, back then people didn't have nearly the knowledge of science that we do now, especially regarding physics, astronomy, or evolution. Therefore, the people writing the bible probably made the best guess about these things when they had to write about them.

What this means is that factual errors, inconsistencies, and factual errors don't instantly disprove the entirety of the bible. This is why intelligent people that know about history and science can still believe in the bible without being hypocrites.

That's not to say that there aren't idiots that will believe every single word in the bible, despite evidence to the contrary. Unfortunately, there is a belief that all Christians are like this, which simply isn't true.

This thread belongs in the "Politics and Religion" forum. Just sayin'. But I don't blame you for avoiding it. It is a scary place.

OT: Mostly because they were raised to believe it. Then, once they were older, the inconsistencies in it were pointed out and explained away by calling them just stories, or simply things that got lost in translation.
Except in the case of literalists. They're just taking the word of their pastor, rather than actually reading it, researching it, or thinking critically about it.

DAMN IT. I KEEP SEEING THREADS THAT BELONG IN R&P AND POST IN THEM ANYWAY. WHY!

OT: Is this something you seriously need to question? I mean, if you dont want to believe in it thats fine, but, why would you debate someone about it?

To people like me, the bible is a historical account of things that have happened in the past. It also has the added effect of teaching you some really good lessons.

Though it sounds like a cop out, you cant throw logic at something like this, because Christians are already well aware of how weird this sounds themselves and still have faith.

I actually don't think anyone, at least in the modern age, truly believes in the Bible, 100%, word-for-word (a lot of them haven't even read the whole thing, word-for-word). Not even the fundamentalists. That's almost impossible, especially with all the laughably blatant contradictions, and multiple revisions over the years that the "true message" has probably been watered down like fuck or exacerbated to the point of just telling everyone to fuck shit up like The Godfather. People just pick and choose what works best with their own ideology, since we're all human beings with free will. So, if a boy has had it hammered into them since they were a child that they're going to get spit-roasted in Hell if they ever touch a vagina before marriage,

To be honest, I think religion is less about the holy book and more just about the people themselves, their place of worship, yadda yadda. Condemnation of homosexuality is actually a fairly small and insignificant part of the Bible, and isn't noted as being any worse than - what was it, eating shrimp or something? But nowadays, the doctrine of Christianity and what most of the priests publicly say (I'd argue that a lot of Christians worship priests almost as much as God himself, since they're willing to believe whatever shit he spouts, like not using condoms even though getting STDs would probably work against the whole "procreation" thing) is firmly against homosexuality, while they're still perfectly fine with eating shrimp or whatever it was.

I guess most Christians tend to alternate wildly between "the Bible is just a guideline to how I should lead my life" and "The Bible is the undeniable law and I'm going to be punished if I don't follow the rules".

You will have no answer other than "Do not talk to me about Religion, I dislike it and the problems it brings on the world". So yes please request a moderator to move this thread to the R&P section.

yuval152:

Is it a trend now to post in off topic R&P things?

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm too busy getting banned.

Your outrage is both hilarious and justified.

FranBunnyFFXII:
Im not trying to start a shitstorm here, but this bugs me.

This isnt nessessarily a "God" thread but rather its about the Bible.

When I was growing up I was a pretty fuckin smart kid. I was that kid who stayed in from recess to go to the library. And to be honest, the one time I got caught shoplifting I was caught taking a science book from a bookfare(i didnt steal anything else after that, learned my lesson), anyways as things go I learned more than I probably could handle at the time, but My family went to church and read the bible and all that evangelical stuff.

I had to go along with it, but every time i kept finding all this weird stuff that was conflicting with what I learned.

Nowadays I'm an athiest, and study pretty much the 2 things that broke me of being a religious person: Evolution(specifically Hominid Evolution), Physics(specifically astrophysics and the big bang/string theory).

I dont mind if people beleive in God, \by all means some people need a source of faith in their lives, but I cant understand how anyone could beleive in the Bible.

If youre a scientifically educated person... Genesis can be disproven without a shadow of a doubt, Metaphorically AND Literally.

The biggest problem I find when debating people about this isnt their actual beleifs, but their defenciveness and the lack of understanding of factual data.

The phrase "Well thats your opinion" i hear way to much as a cop out from religious people when i challenge them and they ask "WELL HOW DO YOU THINK IT HAPPENED SMARTY PANTS"

And when I comment back with actual facts, and sources they use the same cop out "Well thats your opinion." And no matter HOW MANY TIMES i present to people the way that things ACTUALLY happened, with verified scientific backing... "Well thats your opinion!"

I would honestly like to discuss with someone the whole reasonings behind these religous opinions without someone throwing out illegitimate reasonings or garbage debates.

So im asking honestly, how can someone beleive in the bible, when basic science easily disproves various parts of it with an inarguable amount of facts?

Gah this belongs in the religion forums . Begone!

Also the prophecies that were written in does help . Everything written in there has come to pass . Look up the day the stars fell from the skies.

According to my experiences with asking this question to Christians it's because it gives them 'faith'.

And go away, you're supposed to be in R&P.

Sorry, had to go with the trend.

Anyway, what you need to understand is that A: most of the old testament doesn't apply anymore (good thing too, or else we would be stoning people for ridiculous reasons), and B: a lot in the Bible is meant to be used as metaphor. I'm a Christian and I think the Bible should be taken with a grain of salt.....

Gah! Why am I posting in this thread?! I'm supposed to stay away from these threads! Away with you to the foul pit of R&P!

Ask most Christians about some things in the Bible, they will have no clue what you're talking about because most Christians have never read the Bible.
When they go to church, the priest never reads the highly questionable parts of the Bible, just the pleasant stuff so that's the image of the Bible that most Christians have.

aba1:
I agree with yuval but that aside you have to keep in mind most Christians don't believe in the old testament in fact the church has recognized the old testament is really just a bunch or stories with generally good morals.

Clearly you have never read the tripe.

Wombok:

aba1:
I agree with yuval but that aside you have to keep in mind most Christians don't believe in the old testament in fact the church has recognized the old testament is really just a bunch or stories with generally good morals.

Clearly you have never read the tripe.

I have not what is the tripe?

Cause it has a guy summoning bears to devour annoying children.

That's way too awesome to be fake.

FranBunnyFFXII:

If youre a scientifically educated person... Genesis can be disproven without a shadow of a doubt, Metaphorically AND Literally.

Love to see how you think you can disprove a metaphor. You pretty much lose your credibility at that point.

FranBunnyFFXII:
Im not trying to start a shitstorm here, but this bugs me.

This isnt nessessarily a "God" thread but rather its about the Bible.

When I was growing up I was a pretty fuckin smart kid. I was that kid who stayed in from recess to go to the library. And to be honest, the one time I got caught shoplifting I was caught taking a science book from a bookfare(i didnt steal anything else after that, learned my lesson), anyways as things go I learned more than I probably could handle at the time, but My family went to church and read the bible and all that evangelical stuff.

I had to go along with it, but every time i kept finding all this weird stuff that was conflicting with what I learned.

Nowadays I'm an athiest, and study pretty much the 2 things that broke me of being a religious person: Evolution(specifically Hominid Evolution), Physics(specifically astrophysics and the big bang/string theory).

I dont mind if people beleive in God, \by all means some people need a source of faith in their lives, but I cant understand how anyone could beleive in the Bible.

If youre a scientifically educated person... Genesis can be disproven without a shadow of a doubt, Metaphorically AND Literally.

The biggest problem I find when debating people about this isnt their actual beleifs, but their defenciveness and the lack of understanding of factual data.

The phrase "Well thats your opinion" i hear way to much as a cop out from religious people when i challenge them and they ask "WELL HOW DO YOU THINK IT HAPPENED SMARTY PANTS"

And when I comment back with actual facts, and sources they use the same cop out "Well thats your opinion." And no matter HOW MANY TIMES i present to people the way that things ACTUALLY happened, with verified scientific backing... "Well thats your opinion!"

I would honestly like to discuss with someone the whole reasonings behind these religous opinions without someone throwing out illegitimate reasonings or garbage debates.

So im asking honestly, how can someone beleive in the bible, when basic science easily disproves various parts of it with an inarguable amount of facts?

People saying 'oh well it's just an opinion' is generally a sign that they're not confident actually debating what you're talking about.

Oh, and you can't scientifically disprove a metaphor. That'd just be silly. :P

Religious people can believe in religion because what they are talking about is supernatural; it exists outside of science by definition, so science can't be used to disprove it. That's not a reason to believe in it, but it's a reason why you can't just say 'Science! Therefore you're wrong.'

FranBunnyFFXII:
If youre a scientifically educated person... Genesis can be disproven without a shadow of a doubt, Metaphorically AND Literally.

The biggest problem I find when debating people about this isnt their actual beliefs, but their defenciveness and the lack of understanding of factual data.

basic science easily disproves various parts of it with an inarguable amount of facts?

You've come so close to answering your own question. There are places currently and were in the past places where science is/was not taught at all.

If you are brought up with at least a modicum of scienctific reasoning then obviously the Bible has massive problems with it and it cannot be accepted as plain fact. However, there are people who are instructed only in religion when at home, and when their parents hear that the school is teaching 'evolution' they take their children out of the class.

Also, so many of these theories have seen significant revision in the last century that anyone who didn't really understand it to be begin with will just go 'well it's changed so much it can't be true, the Bible hasn't changed, therefore it must be.'

Some people can go their entire lives learning such little science that they genuinely believe all that crap about 'virgins can't get pregnant' 'mothers can impart thoughts onto their babies in the womb' and anything from the Bible.

In general I don't think people who take the Bible as (excuse the pun) gospel are bad or angry or harmful, I just think they're mis- or ill- educated, and hopefully in future we will have the facility to properly educate everyone, instead of leaving out entire states of America.

Note: This is not at all condemning religious people. I just think that you can't take everything the Bible says as absolute truth, because as stated so much of it is plainly ridiculous if taken as a literal explanation.

Why?
Because they want to.
Why do they want to?
Because it makes them feel good.

Simple.

Edit: If you truly want to understand religion I'd analyze it from a philosophical standpoint as opposed to a scientific one. Respect it, discuss it with those who follow it, treat it as a valid viewpoint and attempt to empathize and feel the same things as those who do believe in it. Not all humans are rational, and not all irrational humans are wrong.

FranBunnyFFXII:
Im not trying to start a shitstorm here, but this bugs me.

*coughs*

Anytime you bring up religion in a public forum, it turns into a shitstorm. But, I think you knew this and that is why you made the thread. Good luck with that.

(suggests moving this to the appropriate forum to join Bible topic #3821 )

FranBunnyFFXII:
Im not trying to start a shitstorm here, but

Right here, this is the problem.

Alot of your post is well written but there's so much flame bait there.

OT: Quite simply, many Christians use it only as a source of learning via the idea of "fables" (which the new testament is full of anyway, through Jesus' teaching) and those who don't simply couldn't give a shit, which i think is wholly reasonable.

I don't know...
I can understand having a religion to an extent. You're having a bad day and you take comfort in believing there's some all powerful whatsit's that thinks a bad day is just what you need right now.
Or praying in lieu of crossing your fingers or rubbing the lucky rabbits foot.

But actually "believing" that the bible is true fact, that's just stupidity.
And using the bible to try and dictate how other people should live their lives is evil.

Or any religious text, not just the bible.

Maybe it makes them feel safe that there's an afterlife or some shit.. I dunno.

It's all blatant lies in that book of bullshit and the stuff that isn't is just social behavior.

I use the bible as an anthology of stories revolving around a series of aesops. Of course I don't believe in Moses parting the sea. But I do believe there are stories that have nice lessons.

Huh people believe in the bible as in take it literally? ok I havent come across that I just see people who believe in the general themes that have been outlined for them in it (because I have met very few people who have actually read the bible).

The old testament is an absolute mess it makes no sense with the amount of editing that has been done over the years not to mention all the translations. I highly doubt the stories bare much resemblance to when they were originally transcribed let alone told.

New testament wise I would regard as shaky as well I mean these people worshipped this guy supposedly, they are of course going to raise him up whether its true or not. The books were written years after his death as well so its just recollection especially as some werent written soon after his death I believe Luke or John (could be wrong cant be arsed to look it up) was written a few hundred years after his death.

Yeah anyway I would find it hard to understand why somebody believed in it literally other than because they are crazy or have pure blind faith. That said I would not dismiss it entirely as a lot of stories carry at least a kernel of truth especially stories that have survived for thousands of years.

FranBunnyFFXII:
SNIP

*DEEP BREATH*
Ok, confession time. I am a fundamental Christian, and I am one of those people that takes the Bible as being 100% literally true, because I believe it is the word of God.
It's actually something I'm researching at the moment in my own quiet times, because the inconsistency between Genesis and the current scientific understanding of world history does bug me.

Basically, the way I see it is that Genesis literally happened. In 6 days God created the world, they were 6 actual 24 hour days, there was a man and a woman who were perfect, and they were tempted by the devil who got them to sin, thus condemning humanity. So what about evolution and the bajillion year old universe?

There are those that believe science can be shown to prove the universe is only a few thousand years old, the creationist museum in the Southern states would be one place. They talk about things like Noah's flood ruining the fossil record: killing millions of organisms in a mass extinction event and then sifting and sorting them by mass as the waters settled, creating layers of dead animals beginning with the smallest, most primitive looking, and ending in the most complex and largest organisms. They point to stuff like the large areas of sea fossils found several thousands of feet up in the Andes as proof the sea was once that high, they've tested the necessary length of Noah's ark to carry 2 of every broad category of land animal and found it to be enough, they object to the geological coulomb as being circular reasoning (dating an object's age by looking at what rock layer it was found in, and dating the rock layers age by what objects are in them) They look at the presence of helium in our atmosphere which should have dispersed millenia ago if the earth was really old, the presence of land since erosion happens faster than creation of land etc. etc.

I don't know enough about the science to comment on how accurate that stuff is, but very seldom have I seen anybody actually challenge them on a scientific basis, it's always been "Oh they're just crazy, don't listen to them", but then I've never properly researched it so I don't really know.

My personal view is this:
Every time God made something, he made it part of an already mature, developed and functioning system. Adam and Eve were made as fully grown adults, not helpless babies. The birds and fish were made as fully developed adults, not a few billion eggs laying about the trees and reefs. Trees were made as fully grown mature organisms, but not just that, they had to have moss placed on them, they had to have vines, beehives, ant nests had to be created, and the most telling factor of all: they had to have soil to grow in. Why is soil so important? Because what is it? It's dead plant and animal matter. God had to make dead matter that never existed, he had to create a false history for the planet, stuff was added that had never lived, never died, but was there to feed the vegetation.

Taking this line of thought it is not a huge leap to assume that God could easily have done this with the rest of the universe, with the stars and black holes and supernovas etc. He created a mature universe with a false history spanning back millions of years, so that when it continued in its cycles it had pre-established paths and processes already running, as making a new universe would mean all those paths and processes would have to develop, making it a highly volatile and crazy place.

Yes I do realise this is a bit of a mad reasoning to believe, it can't be tested, since every measurement will just attest to the systems being millions of years old, as God made them that way.
I'm going to get so much crap for this. Oh well.

Shadowstar38:

yuval152:

Is it a trend now to post in off topic R&P things?

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm too busy getting banned.

Your outrage is both hilarious and justified.

And slightly disproportional...

OT: A friend of my parents is a theologist and says that, strangely enough, it's only a very recent trend (past few centuries) that biblical stories were seen as actually true by believers. In the Middle Ages the Bible was seen as a book that promotes morals and values to live by (which, even though I am an atheist, I see as a good thing (except the whole Old Testament where God is a vindictive bastard who comes down on group C for what group A did to group B)), but the stories themselves were seen as just that: stories.

Personally, I think believing in the Bible as a work of fact is either ignorance or blatant stupidity. Some people just don't have the capacity to look around them and see the ways religious stories are disproven, and I can understand that. Others do have the capacity to follow simple logic and physics. How those people can believe in the Bible is beyond me...

This needs to go in Religion and Politics. No, I don't want any bullcrap about how its about the bible and not religion, its about what people believe in and faith, it goes in religion and politics (i.e. the 'we're tired of your shit put it into a sub-forum' forum). Education and scientific knowledge have nothing to do with religion. Want proof? Yakir Aharonov uses religion as his base for his study in physics, Einstein was religious. Boom proof that smart people have religious beliefs and knowing science isn't mutually exclusive with being religious.

Also, there are christian faiths that don't believe in the bible word for word and interpret it in a more metaphorical sense. You don't have to believe that the world necessary came to be in seven days to believe that there is a God somewhere and that most of the stuff in the bible about how to live your life is good stuff.

Also, stop trying to debate over religion. It has never, and I mean never gone well. Ever. Stop trying to argue with people over what they believe, unless you really have to. It's far to easy to wind up picking a fight over something dumb because of religious differences. Let people do what they want unless you have an issue with them. That means letting people believe in the bible if they want and not questioning their beliefs for no good reason other then 'but I disagree'. Also, stop implying that only dumb and uneducated people believe in the bible. That's a low blow.

FranBunnyFFXII:
So im asking honestly, how can someone beleive in the bible, when basic science easily disproves various parts of it with an inarguable amount of facts?

(I'll start answering as it was a "why" question, because it sounds nicer that way)
Because:
1. they were brought up that way - there's a period in child's life (from birth until 4 or 5 years of age I think) when anything the child is told (at least and especially by its parents) is engraved into its brain as a 100% absolute truth without any form of questioning or thinking. You should know that, I think, because it's a biological mechanism specifically existing to teach all the important knowledge about life-threatening and life-helping stuff in the world as quick and efficiently as possible.

2. Science and atheism is presented as "just another religion", and scientific facts and theories are presented to sound on-par with bible fairytales. Very few religious people actually know how science works, and what is its definition of "proof", "fact", "theory", etc. They don't see the concrete, physical connection between the knowledge science has, and the world as it is, exists, and works.

3. Even if they did, any religion's first interest is to break its follower's sense of logic, and bully him away from thinking. They don't really care about facts, what impresses them is an unbreakable (pseudo)reasoning - someone can't make the reasoning to fail, it's flawless to them. No matter that it doesn't make sense because it's circular (thus nonsensical and unbreakable at the same time, by definition).

4. As I said, facts don't matter, they usually just make the believer believe more, because to him they're not pointers to reality, but temptations from evil, or tests from their deity to see how strong their belief is. They are specifically brought up, trained and taught to refuse anything that opposes their beliefs, and automatically accept anything that supports their beliefs. It's hard to reason with a human being with this approach to information. Anything you say will be picked apart and divided into two cathegories: lies from an evil person, and pieces of truth that even opposers sees, which all the more confirms that these are part of the real truth (of the bible) because even as the evil person is trying to lie to them, he can't lie about those things.

5. The fact that science changes its conclusions all the time. To them, it's "how this can be the (absolute) truth, if it changes on almost regular basis? And how can the bible not be the absolute truth, if it stayed the same for thousands of years?". They have usually no concept of approximation, convergence to the truth, and don't understand that there's nothing that is 100% certain in the world, and that what we call "facts" or "certainities" are just things that are very likely _almost to the point of being certain_. (In their view) They have a source that says "this is certain", and opposing it a source that changes the information overnight and says "this is most likely for the moment", so in their world of not understanding facts, and having to rely only on what is said, "certain" is naturally a winner.

6. I might be repeating myself here, but most people believing bible is literally true, have absolutely zero idea about even the basic science (the better possibility), or their image of it is a horribly deformed mis-representation (or anti-representation) crafted specifically to make science look like arcane incomprehensible devilish dark art, or meaningless babble of evil people who "hate god".
(Yes, there's great deal of people who think "atheist" means "he hates god", and when you explain what it really means, they follow with a sentence like "So you hate god and that's why you say you don't believe in his existence").

7. I consider myself to be an above-average intelligent person, and there are some scientific principles/findings I have trouble grasping even on the popular-science level of understanding/explanation. How can you expect people who were taught and trained to refuse learning and exploring and being curious to understand even the basics then? ALL of the science looks like incomprehensible scribbles and babble, to someone. I doubt there's a single person in the world who doesn't have this feeling when exposed to certain pieces of knowledge. Take high mathematics equations that are supposed to explain light, for example, it looks like an alchemy/satanistic writings from 10th century!

8. They mostly don't care about what things are, but they do care greatly about what things appear to be. Compare how scientists talk and how preachers do. Scientists are humble and many times appear to not be sure about what they're saying, because they actually are aware that they can almost never be sure. A believer watching them doesn't understand what they're talking about, and sees that they appear not to be sure what they're talking about. The most common situation in which this happens to an observer is when the observed person is talking out of their ass. So they assume scientists talk out of their ass. This is supported by the indoctrinated idea that they already know everything there is to know (because you know, all the truth is in the bible, it's the greatest source of knowledge in the world), so it couldn't possibly be the case that they just don't know enough to understand the issue.
When preacher talks, he appears to know everything in the world, because he a) thinks he does (see the parenthesis above), b) is trained to believe he does, c) is trained to convince other people that he does, d) is trained to lie and use circular reasoning to remove all doubts from believers while using the doubts to strenghten their faith.
When believer hears preacher speaking, he understands what the preacher is saying, and agrees (which means preacher is right, as the believer thinks he has all the knowledge in the world, and when someone says something and an all-knowing being agrees, it means that someone is right), and moreover, SEES the preacher being so sure about what he's saying, that how could he be wrong? Or how could he lie? He's a good christian, after all. Etc etc...

9. In the end, it basically all boils down to circular reasoning. Everywhere in bible and religion. Circular reasoning designed to support anything anyone inside the religious organisation says, and automatically refuses or demonises anything anyone outside the organisation says.

10. And as you probably know, circular reasoning cannot be broken, it can be only refused, because it's wrong form of reasoning. But by that, you haven't defeated the argument, you just said "i'm not having this argument (because it's against logic)" - but a believer hears only the first part. For him, it's "i'm not having this argument, because I'd loose it", so refusing circular reasoning makes you fail an argument with a believer. Which basically means any attempt at intelligent debate with a believer makes you automatically fail the debate.
And any attempt at non-intelligent debate with a believer makes you either asshole, or intolerant, or just fail through the debate itself, because they're all highly trained at anti-logical (non-intelligent) reasoning and debating since they're born, basically.

Which means you loose either way, no matter what you do, they win all the time, no matter what you do (remember, they care only about how things appear to be), yet you still can't get some brains and convert, and admit your defeat. You're relentless, stupid, god-hating heretic who spits hate at them because he knows they're true.
All the more reason for them to stay with their "thousand-times verified through discussions" "truth", and pass this great god's test of their belief, so they can go to heaven.

I think this kind of answers your question?

The problem I generally run into, and the argument I get from these people (have a few "friends" who are strict baptists who's counter to everything is "Because got put it that way" and "people will come up with any excuse or crazy theory to not believe in god"

RELIGION AND POLITICS WOO.

OT:

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