Still, my personal feeling on this is: the only way this is going to be resolved once and for all is if one side gets wiped out near entirely. A shame though, as it seemed at one time there was a majority on both sides' that wanted to see the hostilities end and a two-state solution be achieved. Which would be the more mature thing...but when has humanity ever reached something THAT peaceful when religion is involved?
. Until three decades there was no 'two state solution'. There was no peace or a chance for peace. Israel did it once with land4peace with Egypt and again with Jordan, it had also hoped it could make peace with Syria by giving back the Golan Heights but it failed. The Syrians at first were bombing the place and they couldn't accept these new borders. later the relationship between Assad and Israel went cold while a growing movement against the eschange of Golan Heights for peace with Syria pretty much quelled this solution.
The idea of two states for two people is obsolete. It had failed in '47, thanks to the Palestinians, and ever since Israel had to fight to exist. Even today there is little hope for such a solution - Israel will not give up on Jerusalem, there is the issue of settlements and the matter of where the refugees (in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria) would go to after a settlement is made. At the moment the PLO cannot call itself a state - and if the UN will agree to such a thing it will only make me more sure it's a joke. If any peace process is to happen is if either side is coerced into talking and giving up their demands. You heard what happened when Abbas said he would not like to return to Tzfat (he's a refugee from there) after a peace would be completed? The Palestinian and Arab world roared in protest. The people are divided and they have no consensus, while one group vows to kill all Jews in Israel the other sweeps its old history under the rug and tries to make the world force Israel into submission via sanctions and political isolation.
Popular support? We would be on the verge of a one party system... Nah, I'm exaggerating, but any PM who could take credit for that and survive the fallout from that operation will have such a track record that I doubt he'll lose an election ever again.
Which was the point I did a botched job of trying to make originally.
EDIT: However I do want to add here... There are internal problems in Israel, and atm people are running for office on populism. YES, that. Here's an example - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN4iKNnpKwM This is the leader of Kadima. The slogo says - "Bibi will get us in trouble". Bibi is a pet name reluctantly given to Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's current PM. He was running on FEAR. Same can be said about the Labor party. You can see over here the if we take out the security issues, there are still internal problems however people will elect the one who "took care of things" just because he did.
Which is pretty much how politics works everywhere, unfortunately.
Regrettably, it doesn't look like this situation is going to go away any time soon though. I've just been reading a summary of various media reports and editorials from media outlets all over the region.
Israeli media seems to be divided pretty evenly between those calling for Hamas to be smashed into little pieces and those calling for calmness and a more measured response.
Sadly, but predictably, pretty much all of the Arab media seems to be full of the same old hate filled zealotry and calls for "The Enemy" to be attacked without mercy.
That said, I can't see anyone else (other than Hezbollah maybe) mobilising against Israel. Jordan has no interest in this. Syria is in no shape to try moving against Israel, and even if their civil war ended this afternoon their equipment must be pretty much shagged out after 18 months of constant operations. Egypt isn't really in any shape to be going to war either although it seems the Camp David agreement is now a thing of the past.
Besides, it's the worst kept secret in the world that Israel has undeclared nukes (most estimates put the number at around 250) and the means to deliver them. Most of the neighbours probably know this too and must realise that it's not a good idea to push too hard. Apart from the lunatics in Tehran perhaps.
Popular support? We would be on the verge of a one party system... Nah, I'm exaggerating, but any PM who could take credit for that and survive the fallout from that operation will have such a track record that I doubt he'll lose an election ever again.
Which was the point I did a botched job of trying to make originally.
EDIT: However I do want to add here... There are internal problems in Israel, and atm people are running for office on populism. YES, that. Here's an example - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN4iKNnpKwM This is the leader of Kadima. The slogo says - "Bibi will get us in trouble". Bibi is a pet name reluctantly given to Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's current PM. He was running on FEAR. Same can be said about the Labor party. You can see over here the if we take out the security issues, there are still internal problems however people will elect the one who "took care of things" just because he did.
Which is pretty much how politics works everywhere, unfortunately.
Regrettably, it doesn't look like this situation is going to go away any time soon though. I've just been reading a summary of various media reports and editorials from media outlets all over the region.
Israeli media seems to be divided pretty evenly between those calling for Hamas to be smashed into little pieces and those calling for calmness and a more measured response.
Sadly, but predictably, pretty much all of the Arab media seems to be full of the same old hate filled zealotry and calls for "The Enemy" to be attacked without mercy.
That said, I can't see anyone else (other than Hezbollah maybe) mobilising against Israel. Jordan has no interest in this. Syria is in no shape to try moving against Israel, and even if their civil war ended this afternoon their equipment must be pretty much shagged out after 18 months of constant operations. Egypt isn't really in any shape to be going to war either although it seems the Camp David agreement is now a thing of the past.
Besides, it's the worst kept secret in the world that Israel has undeclared nukes (most estimates put the number at around 250) and the means to deliver them. Most of the neighbours probably know this too and must realise that it's not a good idea to push too hard. Apart from the lunatics in Tehran perhaps.
. Hezbollah is capable to mount an offensive against Israel but it will fail. Internal strife and the Syrian war going across its borders is trouble enough. It doesn't have an army to face against Israel and since it's not the Palestinians Israel can be much more aggressive. The border had been quiet for a long while now, I don't see why they would attack. Even if they do it would take one-two days for an IDF force to show up at the border and intelligence would spot Lebanon preparing for war a week in advance.
Spoiler: Click to 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
Mod edit: User was banned for multiple insults to staff and mods in user groups
Here, I think this sums up my attitude incredibly well:
What is Israel's long-term strategy? Short-term, I understand: No state can agree to have its civilians rocketed. But long-term, do Israeli leaders believe that they possess a military solution to their political problem in Gaza? There is no way out of this militarily. Israel is not Russia, Gaza is not Chechnya and Netanyahu isn't Putin. Even if Israel were morally capable of acting like Russia, the world would not allow it. So: Is the goal to empower Hamas? Some right-wingers in Israel would prefer Hamas's empowerment, because they want to kill the idea of a two-state solution. But to those leaders who are at least verbally committed to the idea of partition, what is the plan? How do you marginalize Hamas, which seeks the destruction of Jews and the Jewish state, and empower the more moderate forces that govern the West Bank?
And in MANY more words, this too:
Spoiler: Click to 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
As many people have been saying on here, Israel has been at war for over 60 years, and they keep doing stuff like this. Why does anyone think that it's going to change anything this time? And if it's not going to help for some more long-term goal, shouldn't we be doing something else?
Hm, well if the scions of Issac and Ishmael want to duke it out *again* in their ages' old blood feud over beachfront property, fine. Just leave the rest of us out of it.
As many people have been saying on here, Israel has been at war for over 60 years, and they keep doing stuff like this. Why does anyone think that it's going to change anything this time? And if it's not going to help for some more long-term goal, shouldn't we be doing something else?
nobody thinks this is going to change anything. its just a holding pattern for now, and the goal of THIS round is to prolong the time until the next round. and if there WAS a practical "something else" to do, this would make for an interesting debate, but since there ISN'T one, its just going to be more of the same for now.
that said, Iron Dome is turning out to be a real game changer. if the system ever reaches full deployment as intended, the next round may really BE the final one, simply by virtue of Hamas and company realizing that they suffer massive loses for zero gains. who knows, maybe pragmatism will win out in the end.
As many people have been saying on here, Israel has been at war for over 60 years, and they keep doing stuff like this. Why does anyone think that it's going to change anything this time? And if it's not going to help for some more long-term goal, shouldn't we be doing something else?
nobody thinks this is going to change anything. its just a holding pattern for now, and the goal of THIS round is to prolong the time until the next round. and if there WAS a practical "something else" to do, this would make for an interesting debate, but since there ISN'T one, its just going to be more of the same for now.
that said, Iron Dome is turning out to be a real game changer. if the system ever reaches full deployment as intended, the next round may really BE the final one, simply by virtue of Hamas and company realizing that they suffer massive loses for zero gains. who knows, maybe pragmatism will win out in the end.
that might be a good "something else" to do.
I saw news about that, rather impressive so far. We'll see what It's effect will be in the future, but I doubt it will stop attacks. They seem to be largely symbolic now anyways, so they'll probably find a way around it somehow.
And there's always a practical thing to do, but with this people are going to have to be incredibly patient. There's a lot of resentment that's been built up, and that's not going to go away in even a couple of years. This seems like a definite step backward to me though, and that's something no one wants.
Still, my personal feeling on this is: the only way this is going to be resolved once and for all is if one side gets wiped out near entirely. A shame though, as it seemed at one time there was a majority on both sides' that wanted to see the hostilities end and a two-state solution be achieved. Which would be the more mature thing...but when has humanity ever reached something THAT peaceful when religion is involved?
. Until three decades there was no 'two state solution'. There was no peace or a chance for peace. Israel did it once with land4peace with Egypt and again with Jordan, it had also hoped it could make peace with Syria by giving back the Golan Heights but it failed. The Syrians at first were bombing the place and they couldn't accept these new borders. later the relationship between Assad and Israel went cold while a growing movement against the eschange of Golan Heights for peace with Syria pretty much quelled this solution.
The idea of two states for two people is obsolete. It had failed in '47, thanks to the Palestinians, and ever since Israel had to fight to exist. Even today there is little hope for such a solution - Israel will not give up on Jerusalem, there is the issue of settlements and the matter of where the refugees (in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria) would go to after a settlement is made. At the moment the PLO cannot call itself a state - and if the UN will agree to such a thing it will only make me more sure it's a joke. If any peace process is to happen is if either side is coerced into talking and giving up their demands. You heard what happened when Abbas said he would not like to return to Tzfat (he's a refugee from there) after a peace would be completed? The Palestinian and Arab world roared in protest. The people are divided and they have no consensus, while one group vows to kill all Jews in Israel the other sweeps its old history under the rug and tries to make the world force Israel into submission via sanctions and political isolation.
i read this as " hi i was educated in an extremely bias pro israel manner, in my eyes jews are almighty and israel can do no wrong, palestinians on the other hand are dogs who deserve all the ill treatment they get because they are obviously evil, its not like we have stomped them into the dirt while pretending to be almighty and justified in the brutal treatment of civilians and kids."
asking you about israel is like asking a hitler youth about hitler.
What are you saying dude, you're not allowed to say TheIronRuler and his Israeli propaganda is wrong. You'll get a warning for racism.
As many people have been saying on here, Israel has been at war for over 60 years, and they keep doing stuff like this. Why does anyone think that it's going to change anything this time? And if it's not going to help for some more long-term goal, shouldn't we be doing something else?
Why, Israeli will have elections in January 2013. As most politicians, Netanyahu and the other hawks in office couldn't care less about long-term goals. Make a nice little war, so the population can feel proud of brave Netanyahu who 'protected' them against the evil Palestinians.
nobody thinks this is going to change anything. its just a holding pattern for now, and the goal of THIS round is to prolong the time until the next round. and if there WAS a practical "something else" to do, this would make for an interesting debate, but since there ISN'T one, its just going to be more of the same for now.
that said, Iron Dome is turning out to be a real game changer. if the system ever reaches full deployment as intended, the next round may really BE the final one, simply by virtue of Hamas and company realizing that they suffer massive loses for zero gains. who knows, maybe pragmatism will win out in the end.
that might be a good "something else" to do.
I saw news about that, rather impressive so far. We'll see what It's effect will be in the future, but I doubt it will stop attacks. They seem to be largely symbolic now anyways, so they'll probably find a way around it somehow.
And there's always a practical thing to do, but with this people are going to have to be incredibly patient. There's a lot of resentment that's been built up, and that's not going to go away in even a couple of years. This seems like a definite step backward to me though, and that's something no one wants.
I don't think patience will help in this case. Time isn't going to heal a wound that has a twisting knife in it(the wound being the public perception on both sides and the knife being the constant strife). The status quo has to change one way or the other. I'm not particularly confident that Iron Dome will provide this change. At this point I don't see how the two sides can step back and resolve this peacefully. There's too much bad blood at this point, imo.
i read this as " hi i was educated in an extremely bias pro israel manner, in my eyes jews are almighty and israel can do no wrong, palestinians on the other hand are dogs who deserve all the ill treatment they get because they are obviously evil, its not like we have stomped them into the dirt while pretending to be almighty and justified in the brutal treatment of civilians and kids."
asking you about israel is like asking a hitler youth about hitler.
You mean someone born and raised in Israel might have an Israel bias?
As many people have been saying on here, Israel has been at war for over 60 years, and they keep doing stuff like this. Why does anyone think that it's going to change anything this time? And if it's not going to help for some more long-term goal, shouldn't we be doing something else?
Why, Israeli will have elections in January 2013. As most politicians, Netanyahu and the other hawks in office couldn't care less about long-term goals. Make a nice little war, so the population can feel proud of brave Netanyahu who 'protected' them against the evil Palestinians.
I wish this was wrong, but I fear it is probably right.
LetalisK: I don't think patience will help in this case. Time isn't going to heal a wound that has a twisting knife in it(the wound being the public perception on both sides and the knife being the constant strife). The status quo has to change one way or the other. I'm not particularly confident that Iron Dome will provide this change. At this point I don't see how the two sides can step back and resolve this peacefully. There's too much bad blood at this point, imo.
Well, the Cold War ended peacefully, Britain and Ireland are no longer at each other's throats, Iraq and Iran are no longer fighting, Russia and Japan are in much better terms than they have been, Germany and France are allies now, which is kinda unbelievable given the history of that, all of these conflicts have ended, are innumerable others some of which have gone on for hundreds of years. I think the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is done a grave disservice by being treated differently from all of them.
As many people have been saying on here, Israel has been at war for over 60 years, and they keep doing stuff like this. Why does anyone think that it's going to change anything this time? And if it's not going to help for some more long-term goal, shouldn't we be doing something else?
nobody thinks this is going to change anything. its just a holding pattern for now, and the goal of THIS round is to prolong the time until the next round. and if there WAS a practical "something else" to do, this would make for an interesting debate, but since there ISN'T one, its just going to be more of the same for now.
that said, Iron Dome is turning out to be a real game changer. if the system ever reaches full deployment as intended, the next round may really BE the final one, simply by virtue of Hamas and company realizing that they suffer massive loses for zero gains. who knows, maybe pragmatism will win out in the end.
that might be a good "something else" to do.
I saw news about that, rather impressive so far. We'll see what It's effect will be in the future, but I doubt it will stop attacks. They seem to be largely symbolic now anyways, so they'll probably find a way around it somehow.
And there's always a practical thing to do, but with this people are going to have to be incredibly patient. There's a lot of resentment that's been built up, and that's not going to go away in even a couple of years. This seems like a definite step backward to me though, and that's something no one wants.
to be honest, the practical, and most likely solution to the whole thing will end up being similar to what you have with Israel and Syria. officially, both sides are at war, and neither likes the other, but in practice, you have a fairly stable state of ceasefire that has lasted for decades. there isn't a peace treaty, and no real effort to establish one, because it doesn't MATTER what you have written on paper.
under the right conditions, i can picture something similar between Israel and Gaza.
UPDATE14: They hit JERUSALEM. I repeat, they hit Jerusalem.
You're not a besieged ham radio operator with a dodgy signal transmitting from the 1940's :P. You don't need to repeat. It just makes you seem needlessly alarmist.
UPDATE14: They hit JERUSALEM. I repeat, they hit Jerusalem.
You're not a besieged ham radio operator with a dodgy signal transmitting from the 1940's :P. You don't need to repeat. It just makes you seem needlessly alarmist.
to be fair, this IS a massively unexpected development. even Saddam, didn't have the balls to do something like that.
nobody thinks this is going to change anything. its just a holding pattern for now, and the goal of THIS round is to prolong the time until the next round. and if there WAS a practical "something else" to do, this would make for an interesting debate, but since there ISN'T one, its just going to be more of the same for now.
that said, Iron Dome is turning out to be a real game changer. if the system ever reaches full deployment as intended, the next round may really BE the final one, simply by virtue of Hamas and company realizing that they suffer massive loses for zero gains. who knows, maybe pragmatism will win out in the end.
that might be a good "something else" to do.
I saw news about that, rather impressive so far. We'll see what It's effect will be in the future, but I doubt it will stop attacks. They seem to be largely symbolic now anyways, so they'll probably find a way around it somehow.
And there's always a practical thing to do, but with this people are going to have to be incredibly patient. There's a lot of resentment that's been built up, and that's not going to go away in even a couple of years. This seems like a definite step backward to me though, and that's something no one wants.
to be honest, the practical, and most likely solution to the whole thing will end up being similar to what you have with Israel and Syria. officially, both sides are at war, and neither likes the other, but in practice, you have a fairly stable state of ceasefire that has lasted for decades. there isn't a peace treaty, and no real effort to establish one, because it doesn't MATTER what you have written on paper.
under the right conditions, i can picture something similar between Israel and Gaza.
Possibly, but I don't see that happening under the current setup. Israel has far too heavy a presence on the Palestinian economy for them to just be ignored, so they'd have to stop dictating what goes into Gaza and the West Bank and stop any sort of security checkpoints that they've set up, and things like that.
Plus you know, blowing up government buildings and police stations, that sort of thing.
But take away that pressure, and yeah I can see that.
UPDATE14: They hit JERUSALEM. I repeat, they hit Jerusalem.
You're not a besieged ham radio operator with a dodgy signal transmitting from the 1940's :P. You don't need to repeat. It just makes you seem needlessly alarmist.
Still, my personal feeling on this is: the only way this is going to be resolved once and for all is if one side gets wiped out near entirely. A shame though, as it seemed at one time there was a majority on both sides' that wanted to see the hostilities end and a two-state solution be achieved. Which would be the more mature thing...but when has humanity ever reached something THAT peaceful when religion is involved?
. Until three decades there was no 'two state solution'. There was no peace or a chance for peace. Israel did it once with land4peace with Egypt and again with Jordan, it had also hoped it could make peace with Syria by giving back the Golan Heights but it failed. The Syrians at first were bombing the place and they couldn't accept these new borders. later the relationship between Assad and Israel went cold while a growing movement against the eschange of Golan Heights for peace with Syria pretty much quelled this solution.
The idea of two states for two people is obsolete. It had failed in '47, thanks to the Palestinians, and ever since Israel had to fight to exist. Even today there is little hope for such a solution - Israel will not give up on Jerusalem, there is the issue of settlements and the matter of where the refugees (in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria) would go to after a settlement is made. At the moment the PLO cannot call itself a state - and if the UN will agree to such a thing it will only make me more sure it's a joke. If any peace process is to happen is if either side is coerced into talking and giving up their demands. You heard what happened when Abbas said he would not like to return to Tzfat (he's a refugee from there) after a peace would be completed? The Palestinian and Arab world roared in protest. The people are divided and they have no consensus, while one group vows to kill all Jews in Israel the other sweeps its old history under the rug and tries to make the world force Israel into submission via sanctions and political isolation.
i read this as " hi i was educated in an extremely bias pro israel manner, in my eyes jews are almighty and israel can do no wrong, palestinians on the other hand are dogs who deserve all the ill treatment they get because they are obviously evil, its not like we have stomped them into the dirt while pretending to be almighty and justified in the brutal treatment of civilians and kids."
asking you about israel is like asking a hitler youth about hitler.
. You've ignored all I have said with comparing me to Hitler youth. I have no words. .
. Until three decades there was no 'two state solution'. There was no peace or a chance for peace. Israel did it once with land4peace with Egypt and again with Jordan, it had also hoped it could make peace with Syria by giving back the Golan Heights but it failed. The Syrians at first were bombing the place and they couldn't accept these new borders. later the relationship between Assad and Israel went cold while a growing movement against the eschange of Golan Heights for peace with Syria pretty much quelled this solution.
The idea of two states for two people is obsolete. It had failed in '47, thanks to the Palestinians, and ever since Israel had to fight to exist. Even today there is little hope for such a solution - Israel will not give up on Jerusalem, there is the issue of settlements and the matter of where the refugees (in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria) would go to after a settlement is made. At the moment the PLO cannot call itself a state - and if the UN will agree to such a thing it will only make me more sure it's a joke. If any peace process is to happen is if either side is coerced into talking and giving up their demands. You heard what happened when Abbas said he would not like to return to Tzfat (he's a refugee from there) after a peace would be completed? The Palestinian and Arab world roared in protest. The people are divided and they have no consensus, while one group vows to kill all Jews in Israel the other sweeps its old history under the rug and tries to make the world force Israel into submission via sanctions and political isolation.
i read this as " hi i was educated in an extremely bias pro israel manner, in my eyes jews are almighty and israel can do no wrong, palestinians on the other hand are dogs who deserve all the ill treatment they get because they are obviously evil, its not like we have stomped them into the dirt while pretending to be almighty and justified in the brutal treatment of civilians and kids."
asking you about israel is like asking a hitler youth about hitler.
What are you saying dude, you're not allowed to say TheIronRuler and his Israeli propaganda is wrong. You'll get a warning for racism.
As many people have been saying on here, Israel has been at war for over 60 years, and they keep doing stuff like this. Why does anyone think that it's going to change anything this time? And if it's not going to help for some more long-term goal, shouldn't we be doing something else?
Why, Israeli will have elections in January 2013. As most politicians, Netanyahu and the other hawks in office couldn't care less about long-term goals. Make a nice little war, so the population can feel proud of brave Netanyahu who 'protected' them against the evil Palestinians.
. You didn't say anything about me being wrong. You posted an offensive comment.
About the elections - Stop being cynical. The Guardian can kiss my ass as long as I care. This isn't a political move. I explain it more if you want me to, but I don't know if you want to hear. .
RafaelNegrus: Here, I think this sums up my attitude incredibly well:
What is Israel's long-term strategy? Short-term, I understand: No state can agree to have its civilians rocketed. But long-term, do Israeli leaders believe that they possess a military solution to their political problem in Gaza? There is no way out of this militarily. Israel is not Russia, Gaza is not Chechnya and Netanyahu isn't Putin. Even if Israel were morally capable of acting like Russia, the world would not allow it. So: Is the goal to empower Hamas? Some right-wingers in Israel would prefer Hamas's empowerment, because they want to kill the idea of a two-state solution. But to those leaders who are at least verbally committed to the idea of partition, what is the plan? How do you marginalize Hamas, which seeks the destruction of Jews and the Jewish state, and empower the more moderate forces that govern the West Bank?
And in MANY more words, this too:
Spoiler: Click to 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
As many people have been saying on here, Israel has been at war for over 60 years, and they keep doing stuff like this. Why does anyone think that it's going to change anything this time? And if it's not going to help for some more long-term goal, shouldn't we be doing something else?
. So says the man that has military experience and knows how this works? In a crowded Urban environment where there are god damned wired missiles silos between buildings on "state land" of the Hamas, the IDF does surgical strikes to remove it. Where did you get this opinion from? .
As many people have been saying on here, Israel has been at war for over 60 years, and they keep doing stuff like this. Why does anyone think that it's going to change anything this time? And if it's not going to help for some more long-term goal, shouldn't we be doing something else?
nobody thinks this is going to change anything. its just a holding pattern for now, and the goal of THIS round is to prolong the time until the next round. and if there WAS a practical "something else" to do, this would make for an interesting debate, but since there ISN'T one, its just going to be more of the same for now.
that said, Iron Dome is turning out to be a real game changer. if the system ever reaches full deployment as intended, the next round may really BE the final one, simply by virtue of Hamas and company realizing that they suffer massive loses for zero gains. who knows, maybe pragmatism will win out in the end.
that might be a good "something else" to do.
I saw news about that, rather impressive so far. We'll see what It's effect will be in the future, but I doubt it will stop attacks. They seem to be largely symbolic now anyways, so they'll probably find a way around it somehow.
And there's always a practical thing to do, but with this people are going to have to be incredibly patient. There's a lot of resentment that's been built up, and that's not going to go away in even a couple of years. This seems like a definite step backward to me though, and that's something no one wants.
. What practical thing to do? negotiations? You even know how truces are made between Hamas and Israel? Hamas doesn't recognize Israel as a country and vows to kill all of the Jews and retake Palestine. Egyptian Intelligence officers talk with their counterparts from the IDF, and they negotiate between Israel and Hamas. It's not something that the STATE of Egypt does, and Morsi will not do it publicly. These truces are worthless and if either side breaks it who are they going to answer to? This operation is made in order to stop the rocket fire once and for all - bend teh Hamas so much and make Egypt officially broker a permanent truce between the two parties, while taking responsibility for the well-being of Palestinians in Gaza (Which Israel does. They supply Gaza with humanitarian aid). .
I saw news about that, rather impressive so far. We'll see what It's effect will be in the future, but I doubt it will stop attacks. They seem to be largely symbolic now anyways, so they'll probably find a way around it somehow.
And there's always a practical thing to do, but with this people are going to have to be incredibly patient. There's a lot of resentment that's been built up, and that's not going to go away in even a couple of years. This seems like a definite step backward to me though, and that's something no one wants.
to be honest, the practical, and most likely solution to the whole thing will end up being similar to what you have with Israel and Syria. officially, both sides are at war, and neither likes the other, but in practice, you have a fairly stable state of ceasefire that has lasted for decades. there isn't a peace treaty, and no real effort to establish one, because it doesn't MATTER what you have written on paper.
under the right conditions, i can picture something similar between Israel and Gaza.
Possibly, but I don't see that happening under the current setup. Israel has far too heavy a presence on the Palestinian economy for them to just be ignored, so they'd have to stop dictating what goes into Gaza and the West Bank and stop any sort of security checkpoints that they've set up, and things like that.
Plus you know, blowing up government buildings and police stations, that sort of thing.
But take away that pressure, and yeah I can see that.
I'll tell you how it COULD happen. Egypt could basically take over the roles Israel currently fills in Gaza. Of course, that would requite Egypt to actually WANT to become Gaza's new Landlord, but if it did, they could help keep the peace, if for no other reason then because they can grab Hamas by the balls more effectively then Israel can.
Fifty children (and a man) died in Egypt when a school-bus into a terrible car accident. I am awaiting to see how they cover this the news in Egypt. I feel very saddened by this event... Egypt's head of railways resigned from office, if I recall correctly. Oh, there it is. .
to be honest, the practical, and most likely solution to the whole thing will end up being similar to what you have with Israel and Syria. officially, both sides are at war, and neither likes the other, but in practice, you have a fairly stable state of ceasefire that has lasted for decades. there isn't a peace treaty, and no real effort to establish one, because it doesn't MATTER what you have written on paper.
under the right conditions, i can picture something similar between Israel and Gaza.
Possibly, but I don't see that happening under the current setup. Israel has far too heavy a presence on the Palestinian economy for them to just be ignored, so they'd have to stop dictating what goes into Gaza and the West Bank and stop any sort of security checkpoints that they've set up, and things like that.
Plus you know, blowing up government buildings and police stations, that sort of thing.
But take away that pressure, and yeah I can see that.
I'll tell you how it COULD happen. Egypt could basically take over the roles Israel currently fills in Gaza. Of course, that would requite Egypt to actually WANT to become Gaza's new Landlord, but if it did, they could help keep the peace, if for no other reason then because they can grab Hamas by the balls more effectively then Israel can.
. Egypt can't stomach the financial burden here. They also can't stand to be responsible for Hamas&friends attacking Israel.
to be honest, the practical, and most likely solution to the whole thing will end up being similar to what you have with Israel and Syria. officially, both sides are at war, and neither likes the other, but in practice, you have a fairly stable state of ceasefire that has lasted for decades. there isn't a peace treaty, and no real effort to establish one, because it doesn't MATTER what you have written on paper.
under the right conditions, i can picture something similar between Israel and Gaza.
Possibly, but I don't see that happening under the current setup. Israel has far too heavy a presence on the Palestinian economy for them to just be ignored, so they'd have to stop dictating what goes into Gaza and the West Bank and stop any sort of security checkpoints that they've set up, and things like that.
Plus you know, blowing up government buildings and police stations, that sort of thing.
But take away that pressure, and yeah I can see that.
I'll tell you how it COULD happen. Egypt could basically take over the roles Israel currently fills in Gaza. Of course, that would requite Egypt to actually WANT to become Gaza's new Landlord, but if it did, they could help keep the peace, if for no other reason then because they can grab Hamas by the balls more effectively then Israel can.
Egypt has not more control over Hamas than Israel, but it might be able to more "effectively" prevent them from causing trouble but that's just because it would get less attention than Israel and catch less flak for it.
Egypt has it's own problems, it deals with Al-Qaeda and Bedouins Crime Cartels in the Sinai, it is still very unstable and there is allot of pressure on to government for reforms, and lastly i don't think you want the political Muslim Brotherhood in charge of keeping it's militant child Hamas in check.
But in general Israel would love nothing more than dump Gaza onto Egyptian hands, they tried doing it during the peace process but the Egyptians were too "smart" to take the bait.
If Egypt declares Gaza their protectorate it might be quite interesting, a large scale regional war is just what the region might needs, it would knock the region out of the status quo its been stuck in pretty much since 1973.
Israel would most likely get some of it's deterrence back, and casualties on all sides sides would force the local governments to seek a long term solution.
People don't like wars, but they are great catalysts for change, and in most cases change for the better.
TheIronRuler: Fifty children (and a man) died in Egypt when a school-bus into a terrible car accident. I am awaiting to see how they cover this the news in Egypt. I feel very saddened by this event... Egypt's head of railways resigned from office, if I recall correctly. Oh, there it is.
Holy shit. I didn't even hear about that. stupid Israeli Media digging on and on about this latest round, and no one even mentions it. my condolences to the families of the departed.
. So says the man that has military experience and knows how this works? In a crowded Urban environment where there are god damned wired missiles silos between buildings on "state land" of the Hamas, the IDF does surgical strikes to remove it. Where did you get this opinion from? .
Actually, this is my specialization for my Master's degree. Not technically military experience, but studying under guys with more than forty years of experience in unconventional warfare exactly like this. In fact one of my professors was in command of the US operation in Honduras that went on, to be admitted, quite awhile ago. But that's neither here nor there.
. What practical thing to do? negotiations? You even know how truces are made between Hamas and Israel? Hamas doesn't recognize Israel as a country and vows to kill all of the Jews and retake Palestine. Egyptian Intelligence officers talk with their counterparts from the IDF, and they negotiate between Israel and Hamas. It's not something that the STATE of Egypt does, and Morsi will not do it publicly. These truces are worthless and if either side breaks it who are they going to answer to? This operation is made in order to stop the rocket fire once and for all - bend teh Hamas so much and make Egypt officially broker a permanent truce between the two parties, while taking responsibility for the well-being of Palestinians in Gaza (Which Israel does. They supply Gaza with humanitarian aid). .
You're never going to end their military capabilities through military force, I would think that'd be obvious even from Israeli history. This is a repeat of what happened four years ago, and you're arguing that this will put a halt to their capabilities "once and for all"?
Yes, I understand that this is difficult, but you actually want to work with Hamas. Yes, I understand that they propagate violence against you, but they are also the elected government, and so when you undermine them you undermine the only potential ally you have there. So you want to take actions that encourage the more moderate voices and prove them right, the more military action that you take the more you prove the radicals correct in the minds of the Palestinians, and the more isolated Israel becomes in the global community.
What would I do? Well, I'm obviously not knowledgeable enough to provide the best answers, but at least having some form of talks going on would be a good thing. Maybe even take some unilateral action to pull out from there more. People there get angry because Israel is visibly interfering in their lives, stopping that should be of utmost importance. Say the Iron Dome project gets expanded, then it might be possible to lift sanctions on Gaza and allow more trade to flow, which would certainly help.
I'll tell you how it COULD happen. Egypt could basically take over the roles Israel currently fills in Gaza. Of course, that would requite Egypt to actually WANT to become Gaza's new Landlord, but if it did, they could help keep the peace, if for no other reason then because they can grab Hamas by the balls more effectively then Israel can.
Israel has put itself in a position where EVERY social ill in Palestine can be attributed to its presence there. The veracity of that does not matter, so long as Israel continues that appearance then they will spark resentment and hatred.
However, get Egypt in there, and suddenly its not Israel's fault anymore.
. So says the man that has military experience and knows how this works? In a crowded Urban environment where there are god damned wired missiles silos between buildings on "state land" of the Hamas, the IDF does surgical strikes to remove it. Where did you get this opinion from? .
Actually, this is my specialization for my Master's degree. Not technically military experience, but studying under guys with more than forty years of experience in unconventional warfare exactly like this. In fact one of my professors was in command of the US operation in Honduras that went on, to be admitted, quite awhile ago. But that's neither here nor there.
. What practical thing to do? negotiations? You even know how truces are made between Hamas and Israel? Hamas doesn't recognize Israel as a country and vows to kill all of the Jews and retake Palestine. Egyptian Intelligence officers talk with their counterparts from the IDF, and they negotiate between Israel and Hamas. It's not something that the STATE of Egypt does, and Morsi will not do it publicly. These truces are worthless and if either side breaks it who are they going to answer to? This operation is made in order to stop the rocket fire once and for all - bend teh Hamas so much and make Egypt officially broker a permanent truce between the two parties, while taking responsibility for the well-being of Palestinians in Gaza (Which Israel does. They supply Gaza with humanitarian aid). .
You're never going to end their military capabilities through military force, I would think that'd be obvious even from Israeli history. This is a repeat of what happened four years ago, and you're arguing that this will put a halt to their capabilities "once and for all"?
Yes, I understand that this is difficult, but you actually want to work with Hamas. Yes, I understand that they propagate violence against you, but they are also the elected government, and so when you undermine them you undermine the only potential ally you have there. So you want to take actions that encourage the more moderate voices and prove them right, the more military action that you take the more you prove the radicals correct in the minds of the Palestinians, and the more isolated Israel becomes in the global community.
What would I do? Well, I'm obviously not knowledgeable enough to provide the best answers, but at least having some form of talks going on would be a good thing. Maybe even take some unilateral action to pull out from there more. People there get angry because Israel is visibly interfering in their lives, stopping that should be of utmost importance. Say the Iron Dome project gets expanded, then it might be possible to lift sanctions on Gaza and allow more trade to flow, which would certainly help.
I'll tell you how it COULD happen. Egypt could basically take over the roles Israel currently fills in Gaza. Of course, that would requite Egypt to actually WANT to become Gaza's new Landlord, but if it did, they could help keep the peace, if for no other reason then because they can grab Hamas by the balls more effectively then Israel can.
Israel has put itself in a position where EVERY social ill in Palestine can be attributed to its presence there. The veracity of that does not matter, so long as Israel continues that appearance then they will spark resentment and hatred.
However, get Egypt in there, and suddenly its not Israel's fault anymore.
. Luckily for us technology had improved and the targeting systems of today (along with the intelligence collection) isn't remotely the same as it was decades ago while your professor was serving.
This isn't a repeat of Cast Lead. God damnit I can't stand to hear this again. The PM at the time was being investigated (secretly) by the state for accusations of corruption in his current and previous administration as the mayor of Jerusalem. After the operation he resigned from office - this seemed to be his way of making a mark by letting the IDF loos - But this isn't the same right now. Forces stationed near Gaza are just waiting orders to storm the strip but the government is not allowing it. They won't repeat the same that happened n Cast Lead which vilified Israel in the world.
Elected government? When are they going to do elections again? This delusion of Hamas staying in power because the people want them to is mad. They indeed were elected into office and later had a bloody civil war with Fatah. Does not mean that they are a democratic government of any kind.
They DID pull out of Gaza UNILATERALLY in the past, then there was an elections - Fatah lost, and the rockets and terror strikes started! WHY DO IT AGAIN? Iron Dome expanding means more money spent on missiles. The Israeli budget for defense can't handle such a thing. It's approx. 70K$ per missile. How many will Israel need to stop Hamas? Why the hell should we allow them to continue target civilians?
Luckily for us technology had improved and the targeting systems of today (along with the intelligence collection) isn't remotely the same as it was decades ago while your professor was serving.
This isn't a repeat of Cast Lead. God damnit I can't stand to hear this again. The PM at the time was being investigated (secretly) by the state for accusations of corruption in his current and previous administration as the mayor of Jerusalem. After the operation he resigned from office - this seemed to be his way of making a mark by letting the IDF loos - But this isn't the same right now. Forces stationed near Gaza are just waiting orders to storm the strip but the government is not allowing it. They won't repeat the same that happened n Cast Lead which vilified Israel in the world.
Elected government? When are they going to do elections again? This delusion of Hamas staying in power because the people want them to is mad. They indeed were elected into office and later had a bloody civil war with Fatah. Does not mean that they are a democratic government of any kind.
They DID pull out of Gaza UNILATERALLY in the past, then there was an elections - Fatah lost, and the rockets and terror strikes started! WHY DO IT AGAIN? Iron Dome expanding means more money spent on missiles. The Israeli budget for defense can't handle such a thing. It's approx. 70K$ per missile. How many will Israel need to stop Hamas? Why the hell should we allow them to continue target civilians?
So, your targeting systems are good enough that you never harm civilians? Cause that's what you need.
Secondly, please calm down, I understand you have a great emotional investment in this but that can get in the way of thoughtful analysis and decision-making which is not helpful to anyone.
I'm not saying Hamas is at our level of legitimate, not really in the slightest, but they are what we have to work with. To just completely shut them out is as useful as them calling Israel an illegitimate state.
And I'm sorry to say this, but with these kinds of conflicts you can't just say "we tried it once, it didn't work, and now we're never going to do it again." Things are going to get worse before they get better, it is going to be very hard. The nice thing about spending money on defensive missiles, is that its not a visible presence, it removes Israelis from harms way, and it very much strengthens the argument that you're only looking out for Israel's safety. When you go in to blow up these emplacements, civilians die, and then their entire family and everyone they knew is now a lifelong enemy of Israel. Is that worth it? Has that been working?
The military route CAN work, except in this case you're attacking their government, so you can't paint yourselves as the good guys. You also cannot attack with the level of brutality that would be required to stop the attacks for good. You cannot remove them completely, cannot cleanse Gaza and just make it Israeli. So you've got to give a little. Otherwise it will just continue ad infinitum.
Luckily for us technology had improved and the targeting systems of today (along with the intelligence collection) isn't remotely the same as it was decades ago while your professor was serving.
This isn't a repeat of Cast Lead. God damnit I can't stand to hear this again. The PM at the time was being investigated (secretly) by the state for accusations of corruption in his current and previous administration as the mayor of Jerusalem. After the operation he resigned from office - this seemed to be his way of making a mark by letting the IDF loos - But this isn't the same right now. Forces stationed near Gaza are just waiting orders to storm the strip but the government is not allowing it. They won't repeat the same that happened n Cast Lead which vilified Israel in the world.
Elected government? When are they going to do elections again? This delusion of Hamas staying in power because the people want them to is mad. They indeed were elected into office and later had a bloody civil war with Fatah. Does not mean that they are a democratic government of any kind.
They DID pull out of Gaza UNILATERALLY in the past, then there was an elections - Fatah lost, and the rockets and terror strikes started! WHY DO IT AGAIN? Iron Dome expanding means more money spent on missiles. The Israeli budget for defense can't handle such a thing. It's approx. 70K$ per missile. How many will Israel need to stop Hamas? Why the hell should we allow them to continue target civilians?
So, your targeting systems are good enough that you never harm civilians? Cause that's what you need.
Secondly, please calm down, I understand you have a great emotional investment in this but that can get in the way of thoughtful analysis and decision-making which is not helpful to anyone.
I'm not saying Hamas is at our level of legitimate, not really in the slightest, but they are what we have to work with. To just completely shut them out is as useful as them calling Israel an illegitimate state.
And I'm sorry to say this, but with these kinds of conflicts you can't just say "we tried it once, it didn't work, and now we're never going to do it again." Things are going to get worse before they get better, it is going to be very hard. The nice thing about spending money on defensive missiles, is that its not a visible presence, it removes Israelis from harms way, and it very much strengthens the argument that you're only looking out for Israel's safety. When you go in to blow up these emplacements, civilians die, and then their entire family and everyone they knew is now a lifelong enemy of Israel. Is that worth it? Has that been working?
The military route CAN work, except in this case you're attacking their government, so you can't paint yourselves as the good guys. You also cannot attack with the level of brutality that would be required to stop the attacks for good. You cannot remove them completely, cannot cleanse Gaza and just make it Israeli. So you've got to give a little. Otherwise it will just continue ad infinitum.
. 1) Did you even respond to my post? 2) Cleanse Gaza? I can't stand it. I'm hearing Nazi even when it's not there. Hamas is at war with Israel, period. So far no truce can be achieved because either side won't budge. Iron dome isn't 100% effective and people DO die, evidently there are 3 civilian casualties on the Israeli side and multiple injured from rocket fire.
UPDATE!!!: Ohh, exciting - I hear from Arab sources that an Israeli representative is going to Cairo. They have a first draft for an agreement - where the blockage will be slowly lifted and Egyptian passage opened. I will update it more if this turns out to be real. Hamas had said it would send out an important message this evening. Expect developments in the next few hours, if I don't pass out and go to sleep.
Luckily for us technology had improved and the targeting systems of today (along with the intelligence collection) isn't remotely the same as it was decades ago while your professor was serving.
This isn't a repeat of Cast Lead. God damnit I can't stand to hear this again. The PM at the time was being investigated (secretly) by the state for accusations of corruption in his current and previous administration as the mayor of Jerusalem. After the operation he resigned from office - this seemed to be his way of making a mark by letting the IDF loos - But this isn't the same right now. Forces stationed near Gaza are just waiting orders to storm the strip but the government is not allowing it. They won't repeat the same that happened n Cast Lead which vilified Israel in the world.
Elected government? When are they going to do elections again? This delusion of Hamas staying in power because the people want them to is mad. They indeed were elected into office and later had a bloody civil war with Fatah. Does not mean that they are a democratic government of any kind.
They DID pull out of Gaza UNILATERALLY in the past, then there was an elections - Fatah lost, and the rockets and terror strikes started! WHY DO IT AGAIN? Iron Dome expanding means more money spent on missiles. The Israeli budget for defense can't handle such a thing. It's approx. 70K$ per missile. How many will Israel need to stop Hamas? Why the hell should we allow them to continue target civilians?
So, your targeting systems are good enough that you never harm civilians? Cause that's what you need.
Secondly, please calm down, I understand you have a great emotional investment in this but that can get in the way of thoughtful analysis and decision-making which is not helpful to anyone.
I'm not saying Hamas is at our level of legitimate, not really in the slightest, but they are what we have to work with. To just completely shut them out is as useful as them calling Israel an illegitimate state.
And I'm sorry to say this, but with these kinds of conflicts you can't just say "we tried it once, it didn't work, and now we're never going to do it again." Things are going to get worse before they get better, it is going to be very hard. The nice thing about spending money on defensive missiles, is that its not a visible presence, it removes Israelis from harms way, and it very much strengthens the argument that you're only looking out for Israel's safety. When you go in to blow up these emplacements, civilians die, and then their entire family and everyone they knew is now a lifelong enemy of Israel. Is that worth it? Has that been working?
The military route CAN work, except in this case you're attacking their government, so you can't paint yourselves as the good guys. You also cannot attack with the level of brutality that would be required to stop the attacks for good. You cannot remove them completely, cannot cleanse Gaza and just make it Israeli. So you've got to give a little. Otherwise it will just continue ad infinitum.
. 1) Did you even respond to my post? 2) Cleanse Gaza? I can't stand it. I'm hearing Nazi even when it's not there. Hamas is at war with Israel, period. So far no truce can be achieved because either side won't budge. Iron dome isn't 100% effective and people DO die, evidently there are 3 civilian casualties on the Israeli side and multiple injured from rocket fire.
1) Yes When you simplify it down to "Hamas is at war with Israel, period" then its no wonder your policies are ineffective. And there are 38 Palestinian deaths so far. Tell me, how many Palestinians is one Israeli worth? And that is a serious question, because right now that is a big part of the problem.
So, your targeting systems are good enough that you never harm civilians? Cause that's what you need.
Secondly, please calm down, I understand you have a great emotional investment in this but that can get in the way of thoughtful analysis and decision-making which is not helpful to anyone.
I'm not saying Hamas is at our level of legitimate, not really in the slightest, but they are what we have to work with. To just completely shut them out is as useful as them calling Israel an illegitimate state.
And I'm sorry to say this, but with these kinds of conflicts you can't just say "we tried it once, it didn't work, and now we're never going to do it again." Things are going to get worse before they get better, it is going to be very hard. The nice thing about spending money on defensive missiles, is that its not a visible presence, it removes Israelis from harms way, and it very much strengthens the argument that you're only looking out for Israel's safety. When you go in to blow up these emplacements, civilians die, and then their entire family and everyone they knew is now a lifelong enemy of Israel. Is that worth it? Has that been working?
The military route CAN work, except in this case you're attacking their government, so you can't paint yourselves as the good guys. You also cannot attack with the level of brutality that would be required to stop the attacks for good. You cannot remove them completely, cannot cleanse Gaza and just make it Israeli. So you've got to give a little. Otherwise it will just continue ad infinitum.
. 1) Did you even respond to my post? 2) Cleanse Gaza? I can't stand it. I'm hearing Nazi even when it's not there. Hamas is at war with Israel, period. So far no truce can be achieved because either side won't budge. Iron dome isn't 100% effective and people DO die, evidently there are 3 civilian casualties on the Israeli side and multiple injured from rocket fire.
1) Yes When you simplify it down to "Hamas is at war with Israel, period" then its no wonder your policies are ineffective. And there are 38 Palestinian deaths so far. Tell me, how many Palestinians is one Israeli worth? And that is a serious question, because right now that is a big part of the problem.
. A big part of the problem is you with this view. How can you even ask me that? How dare you even say that? Should I bloody respond to this? Do you think the IDF just loves killing those civies? Is that why that after 900 assaults there are 38 casualties in Gaza? You think that the number of casualties on the other side would deter our response? If so, then you must be dreaming. The IDF is still fighting against Hamas, a terrorist organization that still hides within its civilian population and fucking feeds off people like you and the 'sympathy' it gets when bystanders are killed by the IDF.
A poster earlier said that because 3 Israeli civies died the IDF needs ten times more to satisfy itself. This kind of approach is sickening and wrong on every level. You're putting these deaths in front of my face and telling me to look at it while it could have been avoided if Hamas didn't set Israel as its enemy and made strikes against its citizens. But surely it's not the fault of them, they have more dead people so they much be right.
. 1) Did you even respond to my post? 2) Cleanse Gaza? I can't stand it. I'm hearing Nazi even when it's not there. Hamas is at war with Israel, period. So far no truce can be achieved because either side won't budge. Iron dome isn't 100% effective and people DO die, evidently there are 3 civilian casualties on the Israeli side and multiple injured from rocket fire.
1) Yes When you simplify it down to "Hamas is at war with Israel, period" then its no wonder your policies are ineffective. And there are 38 Palestinian deaths so far. Tell me, how many Palestinians is one Israeli worth? And that is a serious question, because right now that is a big part of the problem.
. A big part of the problem is you with this view. How can you even ask me that? How dare you even say that? Should I bloody respond to this? Do you think the IDF just loves killing those civies? Is that why that after 900 assaults there are 38 casualties in Gaza? You think that the number of casualties on the other side would deter our response? If so, then you must be dreaming. The IDF is still fighting against Hamas, a terrorist organization that still hides within its civilian population and fucking feeds off people like you and the 'sympathy' it gets when bystanders are killed by the IDF.
A poster earlier said that because 3 Israeli civies died the IDF needs ten times more to satisfy itself. This kind of approach is sickening and wrong on every level. You're putting these deaths in front of my face and telling me to look at it while it could have been avoided if Hamas didn't set Israel as its enemy and made strikes against its citizens. But surely it's not the fault of them, they have more dead people so they much be right.
That's the price that must be paid for these sorts of attacks. Does the short-term loss of military capabilities justify the negative press? Does this bring more pressure on Hamas, or does it undermine any potential peace process that might be going on? I'm not accusing you, I asking you what needs to be asked. You suspect me of thinking that the IDF is targeting civilians, when I never have. I merely recognize that collateral damage WILL happen as a result of these attacks.
So it's still out there, how many Palestinian lives are worth that of one Israeli? How much collateral damage is too much? When does your legitimate right to security infringe on theirs?
1) Yes When you simplify it down to "Hamas is at war with Israel, period" then its no wonder your policies are ineffective. And there are 38 Palestinian deaths so far. Tell me, how many Palestinians is one Israeli worth? And that is a serious question, because right now that is a big part of the problem.
. A big part of the problem is you with this view. How can you even ask me that? How dare you even say that? Should I bloody respond to this? Do you think the IDF just loves killing those civies? Is that why that after 900 assaults there are 38 casualties in Gaza? You think that the number of casualties on the other side would deter our response? If so, then you must be dreaming. The IDF is still fighting against Hamas, a terrorist organization that still hides within its civilian population and fucking feeds off people like you and the 'sympathy' it gets when bystanders are killed by the IDF.
A poster earlier said that because 3 Israeli civies died the IDF needs ten times more to satisfy itself. This kind of approach is sickening and wrong on every level. You're putting these deaths in front of my face and telling me to look at it while it could have been avoided if Hamas didn't set Israel as its enemy and made strikes against its citizens. But surely it's not the fault of them, they have more dead people so they much be right.
That's the price that must be paid for these sorts of attacks. Does the short-term loss of military capabilities justify the negative press? Does this bring more pressure on Hamas, or does it undermine any potential peace process that might be going on? I'm not accusing you, I asking you what needs to be asked. You suspect me of thinking that the IDF is targeting civilians, when I never have. I merely recognize that collateral damage WILL happen as a result of these attacks.
So it's still out there, how many Palestinian lives are worth that of one Israeli? How much collateral damage is too much? When does your legitimate right to security infringe on theirs?
. Never have I seen a defending force drop its arms because it had been harming too many civilians of the attacking force even though it was doing all in its power not to do so. Additionally, that attacking force is standing behind those civilians. How much does a Palestinian life worth? The IDF will continue its work until either happens - Israel succeeds, or is pressured enough to stop.
There could not be a peace process between a party that won't even speak to you directly or acknowledge the other country's people have the right to live. I cannot stress this enough - there couldn't have been a peace process between the two parties. Now Israel is trying to destroy the leverage Hamas thinks it has (it's military capability) and will hopefully reach a long lasting ceasefire.
Also, I mentioned why this won't be the same as Cast Lead. First and foremost, the very goals of the operation are different. I added more in the previous post and you ignored it.
I said that calling Hamas a democratically elected government is a joke. no response.
What kind of stuff is Hamas even capable of launching, They don't even have enough food and medical supplies there How are they even making/firing missiles? EDIT: I'm asking what their launching, I'm not saying they aren't launching.
Roelof Wesselius: What kind of stuff is Hamas even capable of launching, They don't even have enough food and medical supplies there how could they even make missiles?
. I...I...What...Err... WHERE are you getting this information from? And also, are the 700 rockets and counting fired at Israel just a Zionist plot?
Roelof Wesselius: What kind of stuff is Hamas even capable of launching, They don't even have enough food and medical supplies there how could they even make missiles?
. I...I...What...Err... WHERE are you getting this information from? And also, are the 700 rockets and counting fired at Israel just a Zionist plot?
No i'm asking what kind of missiles they have Homemade,Iranian, *insert arabian country here*
. A big part of the problem is you with this view. How can you even ask me that? How dare you even say that? Should I bloody respond to this? Do you think the IDF just loves killing those civies? Is that why that after 900 assaults there are 38 casualties in Gaza? You think that the number of casualties on the other side would deter our response? If so, then you must be dreaming. The IDF is still fighting against Hamas, a terrorist organization that still hides within its civilian population and fucking feeds off people like you and the 'sympathy' it gets when bystanders are killed by the IDF.
A poster earlier said that because 3 Israeli civies died the IDF needs ten times more to satisfy itself. This kind of approach is sickening and wrong on every level. You're putting these deaths in front of my face and telling me to look at it while it could have been avoided if Hamas didn't set Israel as its enemy and made strikes against its citizens. But surely it's not the fault of them, they have more dead people so they much be right.
That's the price that must be paid for these sorts of attacks. Does the short-term loss of military capabilities justify the negative press? Does this bring more pressure on Hamas, or does it undermine any potential peace process that might be going on? I'm not accusing you, I asking you what needs to be asked. You suspect me of thinking that the IDF is targeting civilians, when I never have. I merely recognize that collateral damage WILL happen as a result of these attacks.
So it's still out there, how many Palestinian lives are worth that of one Israeli? How much collateral damage is too much? When does your legitimate right to security infringe on theirs?
. Never have I seen a defending force drop its arms because it had been harming too many civilians of the attacking force even though it was doing all in its power not to do so. Additionally, that attacking force is standing behind those civilians. How much does a Palestinian life worth? The IDF will continue its work until either happens - Israel succeeds, or is pressured enough to stop.
There could not be a peace process between a party that won't even speak to you directly or acknowledge the other country's people have the right to live. I cannot stress this enough - there couldn't have been a peace process between the two parties. Now Israel is trying to destroy the leverage it thinks it has (it's military capability) and will hopefully reach a long lasting ceasefire.
Also, I mentioned why this won't be the same as Cast Lead. First and foremost, the very goals of the operation are different. I added more in the previous post and you ignored it.
I said that calling Hamas a democratically elected government is a joke. no response.
I responded:
I'm not saying Hamas is at our level of legitimate, not really in the slightest, but they are what we have to work with. To just completely shut them out is as useful as them calling Israel an illegitimate state.
And yes, the two operations are different, so far there has not been a ground invasion. So far.
And of course there can still be a peace process, get someone else to talk with them, build up defenses so that they can't damage you, there are MANY things that can be done, but you have to work at it.
You won't answer my other question, fine. Answer me this: when is Israel going to stop responding to it's enemies provocations? You know Hamas wants Israel to do this, you're playing right into their hands. THEY kill three civilians and then Israeli retaliation paints them as martyrs and further cuts off Israel from the world, because lets be honest, this is the military equivalent of a grown man beating a small child.
I'm not saying they're right, I'm not saying you're wrong.
That's the price that must be paid for these sorts of attacks. Does the short-term loss of military capabilities justify the negative press? Does this bring more pressure on Hamas, or does it undermine any potential peace process that might be going on? I'm not accusing you, I asking you what needs to be asked. You suspect me of thinking that the IDF is targeting civilians, when I never have. I merely recognize that collateral damage WILL happen as a result of these attacks.
So it's still out there, how many Palestinian lives are worth that of one Israeli? How much collateral damage is too much? When does your legitimate right to security infringe on theirs?
. Never have I seen a defending force drop its arms because it had been harming too many civilians of the attacking force even though it was doing all in its power not to do so. Additionally, that attacking force is standing behind those civilians. How much does a Palestinian life worth? The IDF will continue its work until either happens - Israel succeeds, or is pressured enough to stop.
There could not be a peace process between a party that won't even speak to you directly or acknowledge the other country's people have the right to live. I cannot stress this enough - there couldn't have been a peace process between the two parties. Now Israel is trying to destroy the leverage it thinks it has (it's military capability) and will hopefully reach a long lasting ceasefire.
Also, I mentioned why this won't be the same as Cast Lead. First and foremost, the very goals of the operation are different. I added more in the previous post and you ignored it.
I said that calling Hamas a democratically elected government is a joke. no response.
I responded:
I'm not saying Hamas is at our level of legitimate, not really in the slightest, but they are what we have to work with. To just completely shut them out is as useful as them calling Israel an illegitimate state.
And yes, the two operations are different, so far there has not been a ground invasion. So far.
And of course there can still be a peace process, get someone else to talk with them, build up defenses so that they can't damage you, there are MANY things that can be done, but you have to work at it.
You won't answer my other question, fine. Answer me this: when is Israel going to stop responding to it's enemies provocations? You know Hamas wants Israel to do this, you're playing right into their hands. THEY kill three civilians and then Israeli retaliation paints them as martyrs and further cuts off Israel from the world, because lets be honest, this is the military equivalent of a grown man beating a small child.
I'm not saying they're right, I'm not saying you're wrong.
I'm saying the policies aren't working.
. You don't get it. You think that Israeli response is the problem - Do you know how many times Hamas launched rockets at the south of Israel and you didn't have such a response? How many YEARS went by with Hamas&friends firing at Israeli civies and the government didn't respond because it was better if they just shrugged it off? Well, Israel prepared its allies for this assault and they're so far doing very well compared to Cast Lead.
There isn't a route for permanent negotiations while Hamas&friends has a massive stockpile of weapons he can use as leverage to blackmail Israel. Iron Dome's development was crucial for future operations of Israel within the strip.
Roelof Wesselius: What kind of stuff is Hamas even capable of launching, They don't even have enough food and medical supplies there how could they even make missiles?
. I...I...What...Err... WHERE are you getting this information from? And also, are the 700 rockets and counting fired at Israel just a Zionist plot?
No i'm asking what kind of missile they have Homemade,Iranian, *insert arabian country here*
. Err - Self produced, Iranian, ex-soviet. Qassams, Al-Quds - self-produced. Katyusha, Grad - ex-soviet. Fajar-5 - Iranian. These are the most common but there are also other odds and ends, missiles on steroids and mortar shells.
. 1) Did you even respond to my post? 2) Cleanse Gaza? I can't stand it. I'm hearing Nazi even when it's not there. Hamas is at war with Israel, period. So far no truce can be achieved because either side won't budge. Iron dome isn't 100% effective and people DO die, evidently there are 3 civilian casualties on the Israeli side and multiple injured from rocket fire.
1) Yes When you simplify it down to "Hamas is at war with Israel, period" then its no wonder your policies are ineffective. And there are 38 Palestinian deaths so far. Tell me, how many Palestinians is one Israeli worth? And that is a serious question, because right now that is a big part of the problem.
. A big part of the problem is you with this view. How can you even ask me that? How dare you even say that? Should I bloody respond to this? Do you think the IDF just loves killing those civies? Is that why that after 900 assaults there are 38 casualties in Gaza? You think that the number of casualties on the other side would deter our response? If so, then you must be dreaming. The IDF is still fighting against Hamas, a terrorist organization that still hides within its civilian population and fucking feeds off people like you and the 'sympathy' it gets when bystanders are killed by the IDF.
A poster earlier said that because 3 Israeli civies died the IDF needs ten times more to satisfy itself. This kind of approach is sickening and wrong on every level. You're putting these deaths in front of my face and telling me to look at it while it could have been avoided if Hamas didn't set Israel as its enemy and made strikes against its citizens. But surely it's not the fault of them, they have more dead people so they much be right.
Hello! Call me Namsu! Just to go slightly off topic here, what is Israel trying to achieve with "Operation Pillar of Defence"? What benefit do you get out of killing anyone? Fighting fire with fire? Why doesn't anyone look at the root of the problem, as to why there are rocket attacks and so on? Hamas wants to kill Israelis yes, but by these attacks, Israel is essentially punishing the civillians? I agree with previous posts talking about long term implications. You know, the blockade, sanctions and cast lead left permanent damage to the gazan people and their economy, where like 3000 homes were destroyed, schools and so on. None of this was fixed, Hamas doesn't give two s**ts and neither does Israel. Because of Israel's previous mistakes, Gazans were just left with the reminder of the damage done by Israel, fuelling Hamas propaganda etc etc. Especially to the kids, the kids are growing up just knowing about the deaths by Israel attacks to their family and friends, the damage done to their country (as the damaged infrastructure and rubble is left there) and at the same time are exposed to "miracles" done by martyrs or hamas etc (whatever you want to call it). I'm not so good at presenting a point...but what I'm saying is: solve the root of the problem, fix any damages done to stop the HATE, going for outright attacks just fuels the hate. If Israel shows how nice they can be to Palestinians and that they are tolerant of others, there's a better chance for peace. It may be difficult for those who lost loved ones, but it's worth it for the future right? Oh and I am not supporting Hamas, so no need for rage. Oh yeah, and any aid Israel given does not really make up for the destruction the government has done (note I say government, not Israeli people!). EDIT: Oh yeah, and seeing how any sort of attempt at "fearing" Hamas doesn't work, as you can see they are pretty heartless. This quote sort of adds to the damage to Gaza and society rather than Hamas point: 7:55 P.M. Interior Minister Eli Yishai on Israel's operation in Gaza: "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages. Only then will Israel be calm for forty years." Bit extreme... http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/live-blog-idf-prepares-for-ground-invasion-as-gaza-offensive-enters-fourth-day-1.478505
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Until three decades there was no 'two state solution'. There was no peace or a chance for peace. Israel did it once with land4peace with Egypt and again with Jordan, it had also hoped it could make peace with Syria by giving back the Golan Heights but it failed. The Syrians at first were bombing the place and they couldn't accept these new borders. later the relationship between Assad and Israel went cold while a growing movement against the eschange of Golan Heights for peace with Syria pretty much quelled this solution.
The idea of two states for two people is obsolete. It had failed in '47, thanks to the Palestinians, and ever since Israel had to fight to exist. Even today there is little hope for such a solution - Israel will not give up on Jerusalem, there is the issue of settlements and the matter of where the refugees (in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria) would go to after a settlement is made. At the moment the PLO cannot call itself a state - and if the UN will agree to such a thing it will only make me more sure it's a joke. If any peace process is to happen is if either side is coerced into talking and giving up their demands. You heard what happened when Abbas said he would not like to return to Tzfat (he's a refugee from there) after a peace would be completed? The Palestinian and Arab world roared in protest. The people are divided and they have no consensus, while one group vows to kill all Jews in Israel the other sweeps its old history under the rug and tries to make the world force Israel into submission via sanctions and political isolation.