. Never have I seen a defending force drop its arms because it had been harming too many civilians of the attacking force even though it was doing all in its power not to do so. Additionally, that attacking force is standing behind those civilians. How much does a Palestinian life worth? The IDF will continue its work until either happens - Israel succeeds, or is pressured enough to stop.
There could not be a peace process between a party that won't even speak to you directly or acknowledge the other country's people have the right to live. I cannot stress this enough - there couldn't have been a peace process between the two parties. Now Israel is trying to destroy the leverage it thinks it has (it's military capability) and will hopefully reach a long lasting ceasefire.
Also, I mentioned why this won't be the same as Cast Lead. First and foremost, the very goals of the operation are different. I added more in the previous post and you ignored it.
I said that calling Hamas a democratically elected government is a joke. no response.
I responded:
I'm not saying Hamas is at our level of legitimate, not really in the slightest, but they are what we have to work with. To just completely shut them out is as useful as them calling Israel an illegitimate state.
And yes, the two operations are different, so far there has not been a ground invasion. So far.
And of course there can still be a peace process, get someone else to talk with them, build up defenses so that they can't damage you, there are MANY things that can be done, but you have to work at it.
You won't answer my other question, fine. Answer me this: when is Israel going to stop responding to it's enemies provocations? You know Hamas wants Israel to do this, you're playing right into their hands. THEY kill three civilians and then Israeli retaliation paints them as martyrs and further cuts off Israel from the world, because lets be honest, this is the military equivalent of a grown man beating a small child.
I'm not saying they're right, I'm not saying you're wrong.
I'm saying the policies aren't working.
. You don't get it. You think that Israeli response is the problem - Do you know how many times Hamas launched rockets at the south of Israel and you didn't have such a response? How many YEARS went by with Hamas&friends firing at Israeli civies and the government didn't respond because it was better if they just shrugged it off? Well, Israel prepared its allies for this assault and they're so far doing very well compared to Cast Lead.
There isn't a route for permanent negotiations while Hamas&friends has a massive stockpile of weapons he can use as leverage to blackmail Israel. Iron Dome's development was crucial for future operations of Israel within the strip.
The Israeli response is problematic, not the problem itself. However it has definitely not been the solution so far.
Over sixty years of fighting. Israel has done well, many of it's enemies has stopped attacking it, there are almost no official wars on anymore, no more conventional warfare. These are significant triumphs, and are very much laudable.
But the policy has been failing here.
You may say that it's all because of Hamas.
But the fighting will never stop with that attitude. There's always something you can do.
It was hardly Godwin's Law because I was making a legitimate comparison, Israelis treat the Palestinians in the same fashion Hitler treated the Jews, I.E as nothing more than worthless animals that are only good for killing.
Well, Godwin's law just says the longer an internet argument goes on, the more likely it is Hitler will be brought up. But I digress.
There is no propaganda campaign against Palestinians. There is no organized attempt at extermination.
With some research I'm sure I could go on. To simply evoke Hitler to discredit something you don't like is a cheap and ineffective argument. Not only will it prevent people from taking you seriously, but it also undermines the suffering people experienced at the hands of the Nazis. Agree with Israel or not, that's your right. But at least argue your point constructively.
1) Yes When you simplify it down to "Hamas is at war with Israel, period" then its no wonder your policies are ineffective. And there are 38 Palestinian deaths so far. Tell me, how many Palestinians is one Israeli worth? And that is a serious question, because right now that is a big part of the problem.
. A big part of the problem is you with this view. How can you even ask me that? How dare you even say that? Should I bloody respond to this? Do you think the IDF just loves killing those civies? Is that why that after 900 assaults there are 38 casualties in Gaza? You think that the number of casualties on the other side would deter our response? If so, then you must be dreaming. The IDF is still fighting against Hamas, a terrorist organization that still hides within its civilian population and fucking feeds off people like you and the 'sympathy' it gets when bystanders are killed by the IDF.
A poster earlier said that because 3 Israeli civies died the IDF needs ten times more to satisfy itself. This kind of approach is sickening and wrong on every level. You're putting these deaths in front of my face and telling me to look at it while it could have been avoided if Hamas didn't set Israel as its enemy and made strikes against its citizens. But surely it's not the fault of them, they have more dead people so they much be right.
Hello! Call me Namsu! Just to go slightly off topic here, what is Israel trying to achieve with "Operation Pillar of Defence"? What benefit do you get out of killing anyone? Fighting fire with fire? Why doesn't anyone look at the root of the problem, as to why there are rocket attacks and so on? Hamas wants to kill Israelis yes, but by these attacks, Israel is essentially punishing the civillians? I agree with previous posts talking about long term implications. You know, the blockade, sanctions and cast lead left permanent damage to the gazan people and their economy, where like 3000 homes were destroyed, schools and so on. None of this was fixed, Hamas doesn't give two s**ts and neither does Israel. Because of Israel's previous mistakes, Gazans were just left with the reminder of the damage done by Israel, fuelling Hamas propaganda etc etc. Especially to the kids, the kids are growing up just knowing about the deaths by Israel attacks to their family and friends, the damage done to their country (as the damaged infrastructure and rubble is left there) and at the same time are exposed to "miracles" done by martyrs or hamas etc (whatever you want to call it). I'm not so good at presenting a point...but what I'm saying is: solve the root of the problem, fix any damages done to stop the HATE, going for outright attacks just fuels the hate. If Israel shows how nice they can be to Palestinians and that they are tolerant of others, there's a better chance for peace. It may be difficult for those who lost loved ones, but it's worth it for the future right? Oh and I am not supporting Hamas, so no need for rage. Oh yeah, and any aid Israel given does not really make up for the destruction the government has done (note I say government, not Israeli people!). EDIT: Oh yeah, and seeing how any sort of attempt at "fearing" Hamas doesn't work, as you can see they are pretty heartless. This quote sort of adds to the damage to Gaza and society rather than Hamas point: 7:55 P.M. Interior Minister Eli Yishai on Israel's operation in Gaza: "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages. Only then will Israel be calm for forty years." Bit extreme... http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/live-blog-idf-prepares-for-ground-invasion-as-gaza-offensive-enters-fourth-day-1.478505
. Eli Yishai is a member of an orthodox religious party who was in the previous coalition. As far as I know it they don't feel much of any sympathy at all towards killing Arabs. However it doesn't reflect the public and its view.
Israel doesn't target civilians or punish them. They have kept a tight blockade on Gaza Strip and kept feeding and supplting those inside with humanitarian aid. It's against international law, and Israel (as any other country) does what it can to not break it.
Where are you living? Hamas spends most of its budget on running the strip and it's been governing the place ever since. In recent years there have been a boom in the economy, unemployment rates dropped sharply and the standard of life went up. Not many reported on that earlier because it didn't make good press. Palestinian dead babies do.
If you are unaware of this, let me say - Hamas vows to kill all Jews and retake Palestine (all of mandatory Palestine). This means the destruction of Israel. Isn't that the root of the issue?
. I...I...What...Err... WHERE are you getting this information from? And also, are the 700 rockets and counting fired at Israel just a Zionist plot?
No i'm asking what kind of missile they have Homemade,Iranian, *insert arabian country here*
. Err - Self produced, Iranian, ex-soviet. Qassams, Al-Quds - self-produced. Katyusha, Grad - ex-soviet. Fajar-5 - Iranian. These are the most common but there are also other odds and ends, missiles on steroids and mortar shells.
How haven't the mossad tracked down their suppliers yet? They got allot of experience with tracking down people and extrajudicially executing them.
And yes, the two operations are different, so far there has not been a ground invasion. So far.
And of course there can still be a peace process, get someone else to talk with them, build up defenses so that they can't damage you, there are MANY things that can be done, but you have to work at it.
You won't answer my other question, fine. Answer me this: when is Israel going to stop responding to it's enemies provocations? You know Hamas wants Israel to do this, you're playing right into their hands. THEY kill three civilians and then Israeli retaliation paints them as martyrs and further cuts off Israel from the world, because lets be honest, this is the military equivalent of a grown man beating a small child.
I'm not saying they're right, I'm not saying you're wrong.
I'm saying the policies aren't working.
. You don't get it. You think that Israeli response is the problem - Do you know how many times Hamas launched rockets at the south of Israel and you didn't have such a response? How many YEARS went by with Hamas&friends firing at Israeli civies and the government didn't respond because it was better if they just shrugged it off? Well, Israel prepared its allies for this assault and they're so far doing very well compared to Cast Lead.
There isn't a route for permanent negotiations while Hamas&friends has a massive stockpile of weapons he can use as leverage to blackmail Israel. Iron Dome's development was crucial for future operations of Israel within the strip.
The Israeli response is problematic, not the problem itself. However it has definitely not been the solution so far.
Over sixty years of fighting. Israel has done well, many of it's enemies has stopped attacking it, there are almost no official wars on anymore, no more conventional warfare. These are significant triumphs, and are very much laudable.
But the policy has been failing here.
You may say that it's all because of Hamas.
But the fighting will never stop with that attitude. There's always something you can do.
Or you can just keep rising to the bait.
. This was so passive-aggressive I started laughing. There can be negotiations when Hamas normalizes relationship with Israel, or when Hamas will go to negotiations for a permanent ceasefire. Why bother? They have a shitload of missiles and Egypt to back them up! At least that's what they thought when they launched the full-out assault. After their military capability will be nill, they could come down from their high tree with the IDF waiting to enter the strip and agree to negotiate properly.
No i'm asking what kind of missile they have Homemade,Iranian, *insert arabian country here*
. Err - Self produced, Iranian, ex-soviet. Qassams, Al-Quds - self-produced. Katyusha, Grad - ex-soviet. Fajar-5 - Iranian. These are the most common but there are also other odds and ends, missiles on steroids and mortar shells.
How haven't the mossad tracked down their suppliers yet? They got allot of experience with tracking down people and extrajudicially executing them.
. Oh, haha, jab jab, so funny, haha. If you didn't see it, I was being cynical.
Remember that Sudanese weapons plant that was bombed? They blamed Israel. Iran had been supplying them with weapons recently and were using industrial base in Africa to do so, transfer it through Egypt up to the strip. .
It was hardly Godwin's Law because I was making a legitimate comparison, Israelis treat the Palestinians in the same fashion Hitler treated the Jews, I.E as nothing more than worthless animals that are only good for killing.
Well, Godwin's law just says the longer an internet argument goes on, the more likely it is Hitler will be brought up. But I digress.
There is no propaganda campaign against Palestinians. There is no organized attempt at extermination.
With some research I'm sure I could go on. To simply evoke Hitler to discredit something you don't like is a cheap and ineffective argument. Not only will it prevent people from taking you seriously, but it also undermines the suffering people experienced at the hands of the Nazis. Agree with Israel or not, that's your right. But at least argue your point constructively.
. I think that calling Jews Nazis is plain madness, even though some were during WW2. Off-topic, but there were several Jews serving in Nazi Germany's army that were hiding their identity. Err, Europa Europa is a good example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Perel I met that man more than once. I don't cry very often. Certainly not in public.
. You don't get it. You think that Israeli response is the problem - Do you know how many times Hamas launched rockets at the south of Israel and you didn't have such a response? How many YEARS went by with Hamas&friends firing at Israeli civies and the government didn't respond because it was better if they just shrugged it off? Well, Israel prepared its allies for this assault and they're so far doing very well compared to Cast Lead.
There isn't a route for permanent negotiations while Hamas&friends has a massive stockpile of weapons he can use as leverage to blackmail Israel. Iron Dome's development was crucial for future operations of Israel within the strip.
The Israeli response is problematic, not the problem itself. However it has definitely not been the solution so far.
Over sixty years of fighting. Israel has done well, many of it's enemies has stopped attacking it, there are almost no official wars on anymore, no more conventional warfare. These are significant triumphs, and are very much laudable.
But the policy has been failing here.
You may say that it's all because of Hamas.
But the fighting will never stop with that attitude. There's always something you can do.
Or you can just keep rising to the bait.
. This was so passive-aggressive I started laughing. There can be negotiations when Hamas normalizes relationship with Israel, or when Hamas will go to negotiations for a permanent ceasefire. Why bother? They have a shitload of missiles and Egypt to back them up! At least that's what they thought when they launched the full-out assault. After their military capability will be nill, they could come down from their high tree with the IDF waiting to enter the strip and agree to negotiate properly.
Then you are reading a very different feeling into my words than I am trying to bring across.
I merely bring up the fact that so far this kind of tactic has not worked. You can't end their ability to attack through force of arms, they can always rebuild, and your attempts to do so are only likely to increase their resolve to do that very thing. That and just empower the radicals even more. I know working with Hamas in its current position is incredibly hard, but there are even more radical groups out there that Hamas is attempting to keep out of power, and more attacks just make those groups more right in the eyes of the Palestinians.
When Hamas normalizes relations with Israel, the conflict will be over. The goal is to get to that point, and that's very difficult to do so through killing.
. A big part of the problem is you with this view. How can you even ask me that? How dare you even say that? Should I bloody respond to this? Do you think the IDF just loves killing those civies? Is that why that after 900 assaults there are 38 casualties in Gaza? You think that the number of casualties on the other side would deter our response? If so, then you must be dreaming. The IDF is still fighting against Hamas, a terrorist organization that still hides within its civilian population and fucking feeds off people like you and the 'sympathy' it gets when bystanders are killed by the IDF.
A poster earlier said that because 3 Israeli civies died the IDF needs ten times more to satisfy itself. This kind of approach is sickening and wrong on every level. You're putting these deaths in front of my face and telling me to look at it while it could have been avoided if Hamas didn't set Israel as its enemy and made strikes against its citizens. But surely it's not the fault of them, they have more dead people so they much be right.
Hello! Call me Namsu! Just to go slightly off topic here, what is Israel trying to achieve with "Operation Pillar of Defence"? What benefit do you get out of killing anyone? Fighting fire with fire? Why doesn't anyone look at the root of the problem, as to why there are rocket attacks and so on? Hamas wants to kill Israelis yes, but by these attacks, Israel is essentially punishing the civillians? I agree with previous posts talking about long term implications. You know, the blockade, sanctions and cast lead left permanent damage to the gazan people and their economy, where like 3000 homes were destroyed, schools and so on. None of this was fixed, Hamas doesn't give two s**ts and neither does Israel. Because of Israel's previous mistakes, Gazans were just left with the reminder of the damage done by Israel, fuelling Hamas propaganda etc etc. Especially to the kids, the kids are growing up just knowing about the deaths by Israel attacks to their family and friends, the damage done to their country (as the damaged infrastructure and rubble is left there) and at the same time are exposed to "miracles" done by martyrs or hamas etc (whatever you want to call it). I'm not so good at presenting a point...but what I'm saying is: solve the root of the problem, fix any damages done to stop the HATE, going for outright attacks just fuels the hate. If Israel shows how nice they can be to Palestinians and that they are tolerant of others, there's a better chance for peace. It may be difficult for those who lost loved ones, but it's worth it for the future right? Oh and I am not supporting Hamas, so no need for rage. Oh yeah, and any aid Israel given does not really make up for the destruction the government has done (note I say government, not Israeli people!). EDIT: Oh yeah, and seeing how any sort of attempt at "fearing" Hamas doesn't work, as you can see they are pretty heartless. This quote sort of adds to the damage to Gaza and society rather than Hamas point: 7:55 P.M. Interior Minister Eli Yishai on Israel's operation in Gaza: "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages. Only then will Israel be calm for forty years." Bit extreme... http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/live-blog-idf-prepares-for-ground-invasion-as-gaza-offensive-enters-fourth-day-1.478505
. Eli Yishai is a member of an orthodox religious party who was in the previous coalition. As far as I know it they don't feel much of any sympathy at all towards killing Arabs. However it doesn't reflect the public and its view.
Israel doesn't target civilians or punish them. They have kept a tight blockade on Gaza Strip and kept feeding and supplting those inside with humanitarian aid. It's against international law, and Israel (as any other country) does what it can to not break it.
Where are you living? Hamas spends most of its budget on running the strip and it's been governing the place ever since. In recent years there have been a boom in the economy, unemployment rates dropped sharply and so did the standard of life. Not many reported on that earlier because it didn't make good press. Palestinian dead babies do.
If you are unaware of this, let me say - Hamas vows to kill all Jews and retake Palestine (all of mandatory Palestine). This means the destruction of Israel. Isn't that the root of the issue?
There's something in what your saying that i'm not sure if you've noticed.
>Hamas spends most of its budget on running the strip and it's been governing the place ever since. In recent years there have been a boom in the economy, unemployment rates dropped sharply and so did the standard of life.
This might be a reason why there is support for Hamas in the strip you know.
Hello! Call me Namsu! Just to go slightly off topic here, what is Israel trying to achieve with "Operation Pillar of Defence"? What benefit do you get out of killing anyone? Fighting fire with fire? Why doesn't anyone look at the root of the problem, as to why there are rocket attacks and so on? Hamas wants to kill Israelis yes, but by these attacks, Israel is essentially punishing the civillians? I agree with previous posts talking about long term implications. You know, the blockade, sanctions and cast lead left permanent damage to the gazan people and their economy, where like 3000 homes were destroyed, schools and so on. None of this was fixed, Hamas doesn't give two s**ts and neither does Israel. Because of Israel's previous mistakes, Gazans were just left with the reminder of the damage done by Israel, fuelling Hamas propaganda etc etc. Especially to the kids, the kids are growing up just knowing about the deaths by Israel attacks to their family and friends, the damage done to their country (as the damaged infrastructure and rubble is left there) and at the same time are exposed to "miracles" done by martyrs or hamas etc (whatever you want to call it). I'm not so good at presenting a point...but what I'm saying is: solve the root of the problem, fix any damages done to stop the HATE, going for outright attacks just fuels the hate. If Israel shows how nice they can be to Palestinians and that they are tolerant of others, there's a better chance for peace. It may be difficult for those who lost loved ones, but it's worth it for the future right? Oh and I am not supporting Hamas, so no need for rage. Oh yeah, and any aid Israel given does not really make up for the destruction the government has done (note I say government, not Israeli people!). EDIT: Oh yeah, and seeing how any sort of attempt at "fearing" Hamas doesn't work, as you can see they are pretty heartless. This quote sort of adds to the damage to Gaza and society rather than Hamas point: 7:55 P.M. Interior Minister Eli Yishai on Israel's operation in Gaza: "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages. Only then will Israel be calm for forty years." Bit extreme... http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/live-blog-idf-prepares-for-ground-invasion-as-gaza-offensive-enters-fourth-day-1.478505
. Eli Yishai is a member of an orthodox religious party who was in the previous coalition. As far as I know it they don't feel much of any sympathy at all towards killing Arabs. However it doesn't reflect the public and its view.
Israel doesn't target civilians or punish them. They have kept a tight blockade on Gaza Strip and kept feeding and supplting those inside with humanitarian aid. It's against international law, and Israel (as any other country) does what it can to not break it.
Where are you living? Hamas spends most of its budget on running the strip and it's been governing the place ever since. In recent years there have been a boom in the economy, unemployment rates dropped sharply and so did the standard of life. Not many reported on that earlier because it didn't make good press. Palestinian dead babies do.
If you are unaware of this, let me say - Hamas vows to kill all Jews and retake Palestine (all of mandatory Palestine). This means the destruction of Israel. Isn't that the root of the issue?
There's something in what your saying that i'm not sure if you've noticed.
>Hamas spends most of its budget on running the strip and it's been governing the place ever since. In recent years there have been a boom in the economy, unemployment rates dropped sharply and so did the standard of life.
This might be a reason why there is support for Hamas in the strip you know.
. Please don't teach me about this. They've been brutal towards any other political opposition in the region. Dissidents don't live long. People who don't toe the line within the ranks of Hamas are usually not heard from ever again. Hamas is far from being a brutal totalitarian regime, but it's not Scandinavia democracy. The boom in economy is mostly from building industry - more jobs to construct houses, and construct the bunkers and military fortifications Hamas uses during this operation.
It was hardly Godwin's Law because I was making a legitimate comparison, Israelis treat the Palestinians in the same fashion Hitler treated the Jews, I.E as nothing more than worthless animals that are only good for killing.
Well, Godwin's law just says the longer an internet argument goes on, the more likely it is Hitler will be brought up. But I digress.
There is no propaganda campaign against Palestinians. There is no organized attempt at extermination.
With some research I'm sure I could go on. To simply evoke Hitler to discredit something you don't like is a cheap and ineffective argument. Not only will it prevent people from taking you seriously, but it also undermines the suffering people experienced at the hands of the Nazis. Agree with Israel or not, that's your right. But at least argue your point constructively.
Well while i wouldn't go as far as saying the Israeli government is comparable to the National Socialist party when treating "others" there are most certainly extremist zionist settlers who are nazi-ish. I've seen pictures of graffiti stating all the muslims had to be gassed. Actually i have seen and read so much about those settlers in the illegal settlements i believe they are nothing more then the Zionist equivalent of Hamas. (and as such i believe they deserve to be punished as much as Hamas. "Ironically" getting rid of many of the israeli illegal settlements in the West Bank would be a great diplomatic move from Israel and also be a form of justice)
It was hardly Godwin's Law because I was making a legitimate comparison, Israelis treat the Palestinians in the same fashion Hitler treated the Jews, I.E as nothing more than worthless animals that are only good for killing.
Well, Godwin's law just says the longer an internet argument goes on, the more likely it is Hitler will be brought up. But I digress.
There is no propaganda campaign against Palestinians. There is no organized attempt at extermination.
With some research I'm sure I could go on. To simply evoke Hitler to discredit something you don't like is a cheap and ineffective argument. Not only will it prevent people from taking you seriously, but it also undermines the suffering people experienced at the hands of the Nazis. Agree with Israel or not, that's your right. But at least argue your point constructively.
Well while i wouldn't go as far as saying the Israeli government is comparable to the National Socialist party when treating "others" there are most certainly extremist zionist settlers who are nazi-ish. I've seen pictures of graffiti stating all the muslims had to be gassed. Actually i have seen and read so much about those settlers in the illegal settlements i believe they are nothing more then the Zionist equivalent of Hamas. (and as such i believe they deserve to be punished as much as Hamas. "Ironically" getting rid of many of the israeli illegal settlements in the West Bank would be a great diplomatic move from Israel and also be a form of justice)
. Most of them (violent Jewish settlers in west bank) are petty fucking crazy fanatics. Hey mods! It's the truth! Some of them believe all that all Arabs in Israel should die and that Israel should annex west bank&gaza, throw/kill all of the Arabs and colonize it.
I'm not proud of being associated with them. I'm ashamed of being under the same umbrella.
Ah I just had a quick search, yes it has boomed. My bad! (One reason why i try not to take sides :D). I saw an older documentary and these booms were after that, where i got some of the stuff from. But the point still stands does it not? Fight fire with fire and you get burnt. The damage done to the MINDS of the children, treating them/their family as hostile with israeli attacks and hamas propaganda to follow, has formed a strong hatred towards israel. New attack like pillar of defence will only make it worse.
I do have to wonder, if this will end peacefully, or will it end when Israel counter attacks and beats the crap out of the opposition like last time? (I.E. the Six Days War)
Not G. Ivingname: I do have to wonder, if this will end peacefully, or will it end when Israel counter attacks and beats the crap out of the opposition like last time? (I.E. the Six Days War)
Until Israel enforces/allows equal legal and economic rights for Palestinians there can be no peace and if the US stopped giving Israel billions in military aid, Israel might be forced to negotiate a peace. [Israel gets ~60% of all US military aid and is 2nd in total US aid, while being the worlds 16th richest country.]
Currently Israel allows settlers to destroy the businesses of Palestinians (destruction of Palestinian olive farms, firing on Palestinian fishing boats, etc according to the UN) and displace Palestinians from their homes.
Until assasinating 'terrorists' in the name of 'state security' becomes not so media friendly, it will continue to be used as an election ploy.
All that Israel's use of excessive violence and 'collateral damage' is achieving is increasing support for Hamas, just as Hamas attacks increase support for these reprisals.
. You do realize this is the word of one man? Furthermore, a ceasefire in work is useless - the last few times Hamas agreed to a ceasefire it couldn't stop its allies from firing at Israel which dragged a response from the IDF.
Declaring it stupidity because a negotiator later said the man was 'willing' to discuss a ceasefire is wrong.
Ah I just had a quick search, yes it has boomed. My bad! (One reason why i try not to take sides :D). I saw an older documentary and these booms were after that, where i got some of the stuff from. But the point still stands does it not? Fight fire with fire and you get burnt. The damage done to the MINDS of the children, treating them/their family as hostile with israeli attacks and hamas propaganda to follow, has formed a strong hatred towards israel. New attack like pillar of defence will only make it worse.
. You're correct that it will only antagonize Israel more in that population. However the attack would not necessarily make it worse - if it succeeds, there can be a long lasting truce and relationship can start to be normalized.
Yeah you're right. Its way less reliable than the many wikipedia links you've posted. Its just one man... the founder of the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information...the group who state its sole aim is devoting "energy to finding political solutions to obstacles that stand in the way of a peace agreement between Israel and Palestine. It develops policy, advises officials, and promotes a proactive, pro-peace agenda".
What does he know? Probably just found him outside the studio hustling tourists on the street with card games.
Yeah you're right. Its way less reliable than the many wikipedia links you've posted. Its just one man... the founder of the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information...the group who state its sole aim is devoting "energy to finding political solutions to obstacles that stand in the way of a peace agreement between Israel and Palestine. It develops policy, advises officials, and promotes a proactive, pro-peace agenda".
What does he know? Probably just found him outside the studio hustling tourists on the street with card games.
. *stares* This was the only direct contact between Israel and Hamas that they had which continued even after the exchange of prisoners and the release of Gilad Shalit. Assuming he's correct, what's there to talk about? Jabari was the military leader, besides him were two other leaders in Hamas. Even if he did want a long-lasting ceasefire, who know what the others wanted and if they would agree to it.
Palestine is easily the lesser of the two evils, frankly the way Israelis treat Palestine is comparable to the evil Hitler did to the Jews and I personally find their hypocrisy baffling.
And we reach Godwin's Law within five posts.
It was hardly Godwin's Law because I was making a legitimate comparison, Israelis treat the Palestinians in the same fashion Hitler treated the Jews, I.E as nothing more than worthless animals that are only good for killing.
That comparison goes over board, if both sides had the opportunity they would wish the other side away it's not just Israel or Palestine at fault both have some blame.. Anyways it's very complicated, there is no easy answer but the ones that should be trying the hardest to get this resolved is the Israeli's so I'd say they are more at fault. They are a first world nation that has been given the benefit of western support since it's inception but in general the things they do are to protect themselves even if things end up going south more often then not.
TheIronRuler: who know what the others wanted and if they would agree to it.
Well now you're just being ridiculous. One of the best sources of information on the diplomatic process says his piece on the matter and your main question is basically "what if?"
To quote one of the greatest minds of the 23rd Century...
"Aye, and if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon!" - Scotty
TheIronRuler: who know what the others wanted and if they would agree to it.
Well now you're just being ridiculous. One of the best sources of information on the diplomatic process says his piece on the matter and your main question is basically "what if?"
To quote one of the greatest minds of the 22nd Century...
"Aye, and if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon!" - Scotty
. This was limited at best, and with that you make them out to be the ones who deny any negotiations. I am being ridiculous? He was having chats with the military head of the al-qassam brigades. Who the hell knows how it could have ended. .
It was hardly Godwin's Law because I was making a legitimate comparison, Israelis treat the Palestinians in the same fashion Hitler treated the Jews, I.E as nothing more than worthless animals that are only good for killing.
That comparison goes over board, if both sides had the opportunity they would wish the other side away it's not just Israel or Palestine at fault both have some blame.. Anyways it's very complicated, there is no easy answer but the ones that should be trying the hardest to get this resolved is the Israeli's so I'd say they are more at fault. They are a first world nation that has been given the benefit of western support since it's inception but in general the things they do are to protect themselves even if things end up going south more often then not.
. Western support since its inception? Please do try and re-read your history book. Israel struggled through the first two decades of its inception with many economic issues. There was a period of austerity - rationed food supplies and very limited resources&infrastructure.
Even after they were used by France&Britain to stop Egypt from nationalizing the Suez canal, France turned its back on Israel when they left Algiers. The beginning of full-blown western support for Israel came from the USA after '73. Do remember that at the time you had the cold war.
. Western support since its inception? Please do try and re-read your history book. Israel struggled through the first two decades of its inception with many economic issues. There was a period of austerity - rationed food supplies and very limited resources&infrastructure.
Even after they were used by France&Britain to stop Egypt from nationalizing the Suez canal, France turned its back on Israel when they left Algiers. The beginning of full-blown western support for Israel came from the USA after '73. Do remember that at the time you had the cold war.
One aid doesn't just come from money sent, it includes the big countries providing big sticks for Israel to use and diplomatic bullying on behalf of Israel.
Two the very existence of the state is due to western nations also I think that your belief there wasn't any aid in the foundation of Israel a bit off.
. Western support since its inception? Please do try and re-read your history book. Israel struggled through the first two decades of its inception with many economic issues. There was a period of austerity - rationed food supplies and very limited resources&infrastructure.
Even after they were used by France&Britain to stop Egypt from nationalizing the Suez canal, France turned its back on Israel when they left Algiers. The beginning of full-blown western support for Israel came from the USA after '73. Do remember that at the time you had the cold war.
One aid doesn't just come from money sent, it includes the big countries providing big sticks for Israel to use and diplomatic bullying on behalf of Israel.
Two the very existence of the state is due to western nations also I think that your belief there wasn't any aid in the foundation of Israel a bit off.
. Big countries provided big sticks in accordance to their own interests. France had its own interests together and so did the USA. Other light weapons came from post-WW2 weapon caches. A big yard sale of German arms.
Diplomatic bullying? The diplomatic help Israel got was from the USA against the USSR and then onward into modern days. France dropped Israel like a brick when they turned away from their colonies and wanted to mend their bonds with Arabs for economic reasons. Israel only had the USA as a diplomatic ally that also helped them intimidate neighboring nations, and that was during the cold War.
The very existence of the state can be attributed to a few things - Zionist immigration pre-'47. The Holocaust The bad situation of WW2 Jewish refugees in Europe The shitty treatment of Jews in mandatory Palestine in Britain A USA-British committee that inspected the situation who found that Britain has to stop its racist immigration policies that were made to calm the local Arabs and allow Jewish immigration in (so that the situation of Jewish refugees from Europe could be resolved). Finally the move of the issue to the UN were it was supposed to be resolved At the end the Jews fought alone against the invading Arab forces. I didn't see countries come to their aid, but not once did the UN and the USA force temporary truces on both sides to try and resolve the issue.
The USA giving loans to Israel isn't significant. However the reparations Germany paid were for the lost property and mistreatment of the Holocaust survivors that Israel used to help build up the state.
Images: Yeah you're right. Its way less reliable than the many wikipedia links you've posted. Its just one man... the founder of the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information...the group who state its sole aim is devoting "energy to finding political solutions to obstacles that stand in the way of a peace agreement between Israel and Palestine. It develops policy, advises officials, and promotes a proactive, pro-peace agenda".
You know that the israel-palestina komite (sic), a Dutch pro-Hamas group that organises demos with slogans like "Hamas! Hamas! Jews must be gassed!", uses a similar description for its activities, claiming to be pro-peace?
Just because they claim reliability doesn't mean that they are.
In this case, the claim that Hamas wants peace of was considering a peace deal is provably bullshit since: A - that group has no way of communicating with Hamas and can't have known B - even if they had, Hamas is known to lie on a scale that makes Al Sahaf seem like a straight up honest guy C - Hamas was given the chance for peace after their election victory, they clearly stated they don't want peace, and continue to strive for the destruction and annihilation of Israel as laid out in their mission statement
Roelof Wesselius: How haven't the mossad tracked down their suppliers yet? They got allot of experience with tracking down people and extrajudicially executing them.
That is a lie. You are a liar.
The head of Hamas fundraising in western Europe lives in a flat in Amsterdam, receiving unemployment benefits and rent subsidy, after staying in a luxury hotel in Istanbul at the cost of the Dutch taxpayer after being arrested for being part of the violent mob manning the ships that tried to smuggle goods into Gaza from Turkey.
If only Mossad would kill the fucker, it would save us Dutch a lot of grief, hatemongering and wasted taxes. And why we don't crack down on his open fundraising for a terrorist organisation is utterly beyond me.
Not G. Ivingname: I do have to wonder, if this will end peacefully, or will it end when Israel counter attacks and beats the crap out of the opposition like last time? (I.E. the Six Days War)
Until Israel enforces/allows equal legal and economic rights for Palestinians there can be no peace and if the US stopped giving Israel billions in military aid, Israel might be forced to negotiate a peace. [Israel gets ~60% of all US military aid and is 2nd in total US aid, while being the worlds 16th richest country.]
Currently Israel allows settlers to destroy the businesses of Palestinians (destruction of Palestinian olive farms, firing on Palestinian fishing boats, etc according to the UN) and displace Palestinians from their homes.
Until assasinating 'terrorists' in the name of 'state security' becomes not so media friendly, it will continue to be used as an election ploy.
All that Israel's use of excessive violence and 'collateral damage' is achieving is increasing support for Hamas, just as Hamas attacks increase support for these reprisals.
. Stopping palestinian fishing boat -> Gaza Strip under blockade.
Again you're doing this unnerving comparison between IDF attacks and Hamas attacks as if they're both the same. It's starting to get to me that you aren't here to listen .
Images: Yeah you're right. Its way less reliable than the many wikipedia links you've posted. Its just one man... the founder of the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information...the group who state its sole aim is devoting "energy to finding political solutions to obstacles that stand in the way of a peace agreement between Israel and Palestine. It develops policy, advises officials, and promotes a proactive, pro-peace agenda".
You know that the israel-palestina komite (sic), a Dutch pro-Hamas group that organises demos with slogans like "Hamas! Hamas! Jews must be gassed!", uses a similar description for its activities, claiming to be pro-peace?
Just because they claim reliability doesn't mean that they are.
In this case, the claim that Hamas wants peace of was considering a peace deal is provably bullshit since: A - that group has no way of communicating with Hamas and can't have known B - even if they had, Hamas is known to lie on a scale that makes Al Sahaf seem like a straight up honest guy C - Hamas was given the chance for peace after their election victory, they clearly stated they don't want peace, and continue to strive for the destruction and annihilation of Israel as laid out in their mission statement
Roelof Wesselius: How haven't the mossad tracked down their suppliers yet? They got allot of experience with tracking down people and extrajudicially executing them.
That is a lie. You are a liar.
The head of Hamas fundraising in western Europe lives in a flat in Amsterdam, receiving unemployment benefits and rent subsidy, after staying in a luxury hotel in Istanbul at the cost of the Dutch taxpayer after being arrested for being part of the violent mob manning the ships that tried to smuggle goods into Gaza from Turkey.
If only Mossad would kill the fucker, it would save us Dutch a lot of grief, hatemongering and wasted taxes. And why we don't crack down on his open fundraising for a terrorist organisation is utterly beyond me.
Okay i didn't know that thanks for informing me, But the point still stands Mossad are very experienced when it comes to tracking down and killing people.
Images: Yeah you're right. Its way less reliable than the many wikipedia links you've posted. Its just one man... the founder of the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information...the group who state its sole aim is devoting "energy to finding political solutions to obstacles that stand in the way of a peace agreement between Israel and Palestine. It develops policy, advises officials, and promotes a proactive, pro-peace agenda".
You know that the israel-palestina komite (sic), a Dutch pro-Hamas group that organises demos with slogans like "Hamas! Hamas! Jews must be gassed!", uses a similar description for its activities, claiming to be pro-peace?
Just because they claim reliability doesn't mean that they are.
In this case, the claim that Hamas wants peace of was considering a peace deal is provably bullshit since: A - that group has no way of communicating with Hamas and can't have known B - even if they had, Hamas is known to lie on a scale that makes Al Sahaf seem like a straight up honest guy C - Hamas was given the chance for peace after their election victory, they clearly stated they don't want peace, and continue to strive for the destruction and annihilation of Israel as laid out in their mission statement
Roelof Wesselius: How haven't the mossad tracked down their suppliers yet? They got allot of experience with tracking down people and extrajudicially executing them.
That is a lie. You are a liar.
The head of Hamas fundraising in western Europe lives in a flat in Amsterdam, receiving unemployment benefits and rent subsidy, after staying in a luxury hotel in Istanbul at the cost of the Dutch taxpayer after being arrested for being part of the violent mob manning the ships that tried to smuggle goods into Gaza from Turkey.
If only Mossad would kill the fucker, it would save us Dutch a lot of grief, hatemongering and wasted taxes. And why we don't crack down on his open fundraising for a terrorist organisation is utterly beyond me.
Okay i didn't know that thanks for informing me, But the point still stands Mossad are very experienced when it comes to tracking down and killing people.
. Mossad isn't that good. The myth around it is the same as the myth around the CIA. Every intelligence agency has a breaking point, where it can;t continue - however the CIA had gained so much fame and infamy that USA's enemies think it's all-powerful. With the Mossad it's a tad different - over the years, whenever something bad happens to an official in the Arab world people suspect Israel out of habit. It had become so ridiculous that Egypt blamed the Mossad for controlling sharks and making them attack tourists in Egypt so that other tourists won't come in fear of the Zionist sharks.
If the Mossad didn't end it, it means that a single or even a string of assassinations won't do. Why kill people if it's not necessary? Too much of a mess. Then again, it could be an impotent agency and everyone in the Arab world is paranoid because of it.
Most of them (violent Jewish settlers in west bank) are petty fucking crazy fanatics. Hey mods! It's the truth! Some of them believe all that all Arabs in Israel should die and that Israel should annex west bank&gaza, throw/kill all of the Arabs and colonize it.
I'm not proud of being associated with them. I'm ashamed of being under the same umbrella.
Well i personally make a clear distinction between the "mainland" Israeli and the crazies in some of those settlements who think they are entitled to kicking out all the Palestinians because God says it's the promised land of the Jews or whatever fanatic nonsense they spout.
RafaelNegrus: Tell me, how many Palestinians is one Israeli worth? And that is a serious question, because right now that is a big part of the problem.
It is approximately 1,027 palestinians to 1 Israeli. Actually, it's exactly that amount. That is the value Israel places on life.
Israel completely withdrew from Gaza in August 2005, hoping for peace, but Hamas seized control of Gaza in 2007, and terrorism and incitement against Israel intensified.
Hamas and its allies have launched 12,000 rocket and mortar attacks against the people of southern Israel over the past 12 years.
Hamas is a terrorist organization that has waged war for decades to destroy Israel. Hamas, an Iranian proxy, is a terrorist group whose founding charter calls for murdering Jews, "obliterating" Israel, and replacing it with an Islamist theocracy. Hamas is designated a radical Islamist terrorist group by the U.S., the EU, Canada, Japan, and Israel, and it is banned in Jordan, the UK, and Australia. Hamas spearheaded suicide bombing against Israelis: 40 percent of all suicide bombers were affiliated with Hamas.
Hamas escalated its attacks against Israeli citizens in October and November 2012, launching massive barrages of mortars and rockets, forcing Israel to take military action. 800 rocket and mortar attacks from January 1 to November 13, 2012 77 rocket and mortar attacks from October 22 to October 24 150 rocket and mortar attacks from November 10 to November 12 270 rocket attacks from November 14 to November 15 that killed three Israelis, two rockets reaching Tel Aviv
Israel asked the UN to condemn the terrorist attacks, but the UN did not. Israel wrote a formal letter to the UN Security Council and secretary-general on October 24 and again on November 12.
Hamas consistently commits war crimes by firing at Israeli civilians, not military targets. From November 14 to 15, Hamas and its allied groups indiscriminately fired 270 rockets at Israeli population centers, killing three civilians. Palestinian terrorist groups reported with "glee" that they had hit Tel Aviv and other Israeli population centers.
Hamas and the other Gaza terrorist organizations bear full responsibility for the deaths of innocent Palestinians. They callously use Palestinians as human shields, which is a war crime. Gaza terrorists launch attacks and store weapons in densely populated areas, putting civilians directly in the line of fire. Gaza's leaders consistently choose terrorism over peaceful coexistence, endangering their own people and denying them a normal existence.
Be alert to falsified reports about Palestinian casualties. In previous Palestinian-Israeli fighting, Palestinian sources regularly exaggerated casualties for propaganda purposes. In the first two days of fighting, Hamas has already falsified its reports, posting a photograph of a child's tragic death in the Syrian civil war and claiming that the photo had been taken in Gaza.
RafaelNegrus: Tell me, how many Palestinians is one Israeli worth? And that is a serious question, because right now that is a big part of the problem.
It is approximately 1,027 palestinians to 1 Israeli. Actually, it's exactly that amount. That is the value Israel places on life.
. That's the value Hamas demanded for Cpl. Shalit. Israel wanted to bring it down, but this is as low as they got. So the Palestinians actually mean that the life of an Israel is worth a thousand times more than the lives of a Palestinian.
The Israeli response is problematic, not the problem itself. However it has definitely not been the solution so far.
Over sixty years of fighting. Israel has done well, many of it's enemies has stopped attacking it, there are almost no official wars on anymore, no more conventional warfare. These are significant triumphs, and are very much laudable.
But the policy has been failing here.
You may say that it's all because of Hamas.
But the fighting will never stop with that attitude. There's always something you can do.
Or you can just keep rising to the bait.