What. What do you want. I really don't get it. What would be the proper response to missile fire?
Bomb the launch sites and be done with it. Israel is planning a full scale invasion and is attacking assassinating hamas targets 5 so far I believe is what I read. In there hoes or markets or where ever. There are people getting hurt in these explosions including journalists in one tower that had a prominent official at the top.
They've set the ground invasion dead line for Friday. If they invade there will be a problem, since most of hamas rockets are gone for the moment Israel should say they will cease fire for the next two days and Hamas should do the same. Israel keeps saying if they don't stop firing we won't and Hamas is saying the same thing. It's time for Israel to be the bigger man and say we're stopping you have a day or two to do the same. If that fails a ground assault is still too much.
What. What do you want. I really don't get it. What would be the proper response to missile fire?
Bomb the launch sites and be done with it. Israel is planning a full scale invasion and is attacking assassinating hamas targets 5 so far I believe is what I read. In there hoes or markets or where ever. There are people getting hurt in these explosions including journalists in one tower that had a prominent official at the top.
They've set the ground invasion dead line for Friday. If they invade there will be a problem, since most of hamas rockets are gone for the moment Israel should say they will cease fire for the next two days and Hamas should do the same. Israel keeps saying if they don't stop firing we won't and Hamas is saying the same thing. It's time for Israel to be the bigger man and say we're stopping you have a day or two to do the same. If that fails a ground assault is still too much.
. The IDF did exactly that. In fact, I have said that MULTIPLE TIMES.
. It WOULD make a different if Gaza had free elections. It doesn't have that. Hamas keeps its control and eliminates political opponents in Gaza strip. This is why Fatah haven't set foot there for 5 years. I understand your point - more hostilities create more martyrs and more people ready to pick up arms - But there is no other way of dealing with this besides sitting quietly and taking the missile fire. This operation is made to stop it, destroy the leverage Hamas has over Israel (it's weapons) and force it to a truce where other nations and it would guarantee those in Gaza won't rearm themselves so this disaster won't happen again.
The arab spring has shown countries without free elections and without a booming economy will get torn apart from it's own populace. Considering majority of people in Palestine are for full free elections they wouldn't allow the status quo to be maintained. And there would be even more people supporting full free elections if Hamas lost it's sole drawing point, Israel is evil.
If Israel was only bombing rocket positions there would be far less of a problem but it's when Israel does things like this.
That the fear brought on by Israel becomes institutionalized. It becomes the driving force of political discourse. Not to mention I think that the reason less missiles are being fired is because they are being fired towards more populace areas, that and Palestine probably couldn't keep up the rate of 100 or more rockets fired a day for more than what they did even without IDF taking down positions.
. I think I said it before, I'll say it again - the rocket fire had decreased dramatically, and the IDF had almost entirely depleted its 'target bank' which holds targets that have a very low chance of hitting any civies. This is why I said that the operation was meant to end in 4 days - during the operation they found more targets, but that was only enough for another day. At the end of the 5th day they started assassinating Al-Qassam brass to try and pressure Hamas political leaders into negotiations with Egypt&friends in Cairo.
Not to mention I think that the reason less missiles are being fired is because they are being fired towards more populace areas, that and Palestine probably couldn't keep up the rate of 100 or more rockets fired a day for more than what they did even without IDF taking down positions.
...Where exactly are you getting this from?
Had you listened when I talked to you before you would have known that the IDF had been doing that for the first 5 days. However Hamas didn't show any signs of backing down or negotiating with Egypt - the political figures still believed that they ahd the military capability to keep the war going. This is where the assassinations came in, and where the death count jumped.
A ground assault will commence if Hamas refuses to negotiate under the terms of a temporary ceasefire. They're calling Israel to not fire at them while they're firing at Israel. No, there is no point in being the better man here and suffer a beating. They're already treating this as a victory since they hit Tel-Aviv more than once and Israel putting down its arms and getting pounded with missiles will only make it clearer that Hamas won this round.
What. What do you want. I really don't get it. What would be the proper response to missile fire?
Bomb the launch sites and be done with it. Israel is planning a full scale invasion and is attacking assassinating hamas targets 5 so far I believe is what I read. In there hoes or markets or where ever. There are people getting hurt in these explosions including journalists in one tower that had a prominent official at the top.
They've set the ground invasion dead line for Friday. If they invade there will be a problem, since most of hamas rockets are gone for the moment Israel should say they will cease fire for the next two days and Hamas should do the same. Israel keeps saying if they don't stop firing we won't and Hamas is saying the same thing. It's time for Israel to be the bigger man and say we're stopping you have a day or two to do the same. If that fails a ground assault is still too much.
. The IDF did exactly that. In fact, I have said that MULTIPLE TIMES.
Has Israel stopped bombing gaza? no. In fact they have stated they will continue with their operations until a cease fire is agreed to. That is not what i'm suggesting
I don't understand how you could support a terrorist government like that of Israel. Even if Hamas are equally evil, you can't take over a region and then systematically oppress and kill the indigenous population. If any other nation did it they'd be universally condemned.
What even gives Israel the right to defend themselves? Of course it's probably decades too late to reverse the situation that's been created but if you go years back, it's little more than a group of people collectively invading a piece of land and claiming it for unjustified historical reasons.
Bomb the launch sites and be done with it. Israel is planning a full scale invasion and is attacking assassinating hamas targets 5 so far I believe is what I read. In there hoes or markets or where ever. There are people getting hurt in these explosions including journalists in one tower that had a prominent official at the top.
They've set the ground invasion dead line for Friday. If they invade there will be a problem, since most of hamas rockets are gone for the moment Israel should say they will cease fire for the next two days and Hamas should do the same. Israel keeps saying if they don't stop firing we won't and Hamas is saying the same thing. It's time for Israel to be the bigger man and say we're stopping you have a day or two to do the same. If that fails a ground assault is still too much.
. The IDF did exactly that. In fact, I have said that MULTIPLE TIMES.
Has Israel stopped bombing gaza? no. In fact they have stated they will continue with their operations until a cease fire is agreed to. That is not what i'm suggesting
And Israel should not invade gaza even if a ceasefire can't be reached, it serves no purpose.
. I told you why they continue to bomb Gaza. Any say of a formal ceasefire so far is wishful thinking. Both sides hadn't agreed to the terms yet. With the continued operations in Gaza, I believe Hamas will have less of a leverage over Israel.
AnarchistFish: I don't understand how you could support a terrorist government like that of Israel. Even if Hamas are equally evil, you can't take over a region and then systematically oppress and kill the indigenous population. If any other nation did it they'd be universally condemned.
What even gives Israel the right to defend themselves? Of course it's probably decades too late to reverse the situation that's been created but if you go years back, it's little more than a group of people collectively invading a piece of land and claiming it for unjustified historical reasons.
. Ah, another one. Grand.
What you have just said is demonstrably wrong.
Did the Arabs that live within Israel and are its citizens are systematically oppressed and killed? They aren't.
Israel has the right to defend itself the same way Britain has a right to defend itself. There shouldn't even be an issue here. This isn't "a group of people collectively invading a piece of land and claiming it for unjustified historical reasons". Invading would imply them coming in with force and conquering land from the locals. They bought the land they settled on pre-'47. In the process of the decolonization of the mandate of Palestine the UN had formed a partition plan, Arabs refused by launching attacks on Jews the next days, war broke out, some months later (a day after the mandate was officially over) the state of Israel was created, the Jews kept fighting against the additional neighboring armies... Israel survived, and still does to this day.
Israel has the right to defend itself the same way Britain has a right to defend itself. There shouldn't even be an issue here. This isn't "a group of people collectively invading a piece of land and claiming it for unjustified historical reasons". Invading would imply them coming in with force and conquering land from the locals. They bought the land they settled on pre-'47. In the process of the decolonization of the mandate of Palestine the UN had formed a partition plan, Arabs refused by launching attacks on Jews the next days, war broke out, some months later (a day after the mandate was officially over) the state of Israel was created, the Jews kept fighting against the additional neighboring armies... Israel survived, and still does to this day.
Who did they buy the land off?
Invasion is probably the wrong word. But it was allowed to be overtaken whilst the British controlled the region.
Israel has the right to defend itself the same way Britain has a right to defend itself. There shouldn't even be an issue here. This isn't "a group of people collectively invading a piece of land and claiming it for unjustified historical reasons". Invading would imply them coming in with force and conquering land from the locals. They bought the land they settled on pre-'47. In the process of the decolonization of the mandate of Palestine the UN had formed a partition plan, Arabs refused by launching attacks on Jews the next days, war broke out, some months later (a day after the mandate was officially over) the state of Israel was created, the Jews kept fighting against the additional neighboring armies... Israel survived, and still does to this day.
Who did they buy the land off?
Invasion is probably the wrong word. But it was allowed to be overtaken whilst the British controlled the region.
Just so you know none of what israel has done has coincided with what they've done yet you said this, "The IDF did exactly that. In fact, I have said that MULTIPLE TIMES." that is what i was trying to say.
Israel has the right to defend itself the same way Britain has a right to defend itself. There shouldn't even be an issue here. This isn't "a group of people collectively invading a piece of land and claiming it for unjustified historical reasons". Invading would imply them coming in with force and conquering land from the locals. They bought the land they settled on pre-'47. In the process of the decolonization of the mandate of Palestine the UN had formed a partition plan, Arabs refused by launching attacks on Jews the next days, war broke out, some months later (a day after the mandate was officially over) the state of Israel was created, the Jews kept fighting against the additional neighboring armies... Israel survived, and still does to this day.
Who did they buy the land off?
Invasion is probably the wrong word. But it was allowed to be overtaken whilst the British controlled the region.
. They bought it from whoever owned that land.
So the British? Not the natives?
TheIronRuler: It was allowed to be overtaken? No it wasn't. The British pushed against Jewish immigration into mandatory Palestine to appease the Arabs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration edit: that's probably a bad example considering it's date, but the fact that it happened says it all really. Either way it's not particularly relevant whether the British were in favour of it or not. The indigenous population were against it.
I'm not finding anything to back up the Israeli land having been bought out either. Just stuff about the UN resolution.
Just so you know none of what israel has done has coincided with what they've done yet you said this, "The IDF did exactly that. In fact, I have said that MULTIPLE TIMES." that is what i was trying to say.
. You said - "Bomb the launch sites and be done with it. " Israel was bombing launch sites for the first 5 days and continued to do so. Since the negotiations were stuck while the Al-Qassam brass told the Hamas leadership they could carry on the fighting - and the IDF assassinated them. This is when they broke off and made more actions besides just bombing the launch sites. If you bomb the launch sites and be done with it it wouldn't take two weeks till Hamas fires rockets at Israel again and this whole thing happens again. .
Invasion is probably the wrong word. But it was allowed to be overtaken whilst the British controlled the region.
. They bought it from whoever owned that land.
So the British? Not the natives?
TheIronRuler: It was allowed to be overtaken? No it wasn't. The British pushed against Jewish immigration into mandatory Palestine to appease the Arabs.
That fact that other shit happened later also says it all really.
Israeli land? The land wasn't at first Israeli, it was owned by one of the companies responsible for the Jewish settlement of the mandate of Palestine. I should have given you this link. Silly me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine
Prior to partition, I believe jewish individuals and collectives (the kibbutzim) owned around 10% of the total land area of Mandate Palestine. Of course, Palestinians only owned about 12%. They bought this land from Palestinians, it was this huge multi-decade scandal, with Palestinians trying to organize to keep their people from selling land to the Jews, and even more of them ignoring this and making money. The rest was owned originally by the Ottoman government, and was administered by the british. Jews made up about 35% with arabs as 65% of the pre-partition populace, but remember they may have been undercounted a bit because of British anti-immigration laws. The original partition plan (Peel Commission) called for about 15% of the total land to go to the Jews (half again what they privately owned). The Jews accepted this plan, the arabs did not. Another plan was drawn up by the UN, now with the Jews getting 53% of the land. If the arabs wouldn't accept 85% of Palestine, they certainly weren't going to take less than half. They wanted it all. So when the British pulled out, they attacked to drive the Jews "into the Sea", which didn't go so well for them. They lost even more territory in the ensuing war, and the areas of Palestine the Jews didn't get to were swallowed by the nations that had helped in the invasion of Israel. Jordan took the West Bank and Jerusalem, Egypt took Gaza, etc.
Historically, Palestinians have refused every opportunity to take any portion of Palestine for their own state. They have felt from the beginning that the entire area should be theirs, and that all jews should be expelled. With time and military defeat some have moderated their rhetoric and adjusted their expectations, but it pays to remember this. It is part of their national myth and self-image. One can certainly see where they come from, but at some point reality needs to set in.
. You said - "Bomb the launch sites and be done with it. " Israel was bombing launch sites for the first 5 days and continued to do so. Since the negotiations were stuck while the Al-Qassam brass told the Hamas leadership they could carry on the fighting - and the IDF assassinated them. This is when they broke off and made more actions besides just bombing the launch sites. If you bomb the launch sites and be done with it it wouldn't take two weeks till Hamas fires rockets at Israel again and this whole thing happens again.
The only way to stop the bombs for a couple years is an invasion which would destroy the rapport with the Palestinians. And like I've already stated that's the same thing they always do and the same results will be achieved. Another problem in the next couple of years. If you want to read my full opinion I have plenty of posts where I have plainly stated it and why what I say is closer to truth than expecting the violence to suddenly end one day with people get board or some shit.
If Israel invades it's only going to recycle the same thing that happens every couple of years. If Israel didn't invade and instead let the Palestinians take Hamas out of power and just decided to instead destroy the rocket sites whenever they popped up it would benefit both Israel and Palestine. Israel wouldn't have to fund a ground campaign but could still keep the offensive abilities of palestine in check and Palestine would eventually see the struggle is going no where and not be enraged at an invasion.
This is the point where I stop. There is no apartheid in Israel, and had you learned the meaning of the word you use you would have known that.
This is a pretty childish response.
Apartheid is a fairly common accusation. It's been made by academics (including Israeli ones), human rights activists, foreign government officials (not just hostile ones, but also neutral ones from places like South Africa), Jimmy Carter the former President of the USA, UN officials and Special Rapporteur, etc.
It's not some fringe wacko can just handwave away with "you're obviously incorrect because I say so" as you've done in your post here. It's a mainstream opinion, not necessarily a majority one but common nonetheless, and I stand by it.
Danny Ocean: Seems this Iron Dome thing is super-effective. Those rockets barely even do anything any more.
What a threatened nation this regional power is. Sarcasm.
The Iron Dome is effective but it does not really matter, it might save lives but it wont stop the 800,000 people who are running for their lives to shelters countless times of day and waken in the middle of the night by air raid sirens.
This single post just proves how twisted your state of mind is, if some one is shooting while you're wearing a ballistic vest they are still shooting at you, the fact that you are protected does not decrease the severity of that action by even one bit, Israel as any other sovereign state is responsible to ensuring the safety of it own citizens first, the true impact on it's security or existence does not matter one bit the financial damages and the psychological effects are sufficient enough to turn Gaza into a parking lot, and i assure you that any other major power would've done that by now. ;)
Wonder how the UK would dealt with Scotland if they would be lobbying missiles over the border non-stop, we remember how it dealt with Argentina...
Scotland is a part of the UK... what are you talking about? That comparison makes no sense, that would be if Israel were bombing Southern Israel so Israel Bombs Northern Israel... ITS STILL ISRAEL. Also, another unfair comparison... The people of the Falklands want to remain part of the UK, while I hate Thatcher with every drop of my Yorkshire/Irish blood, it was technically in defence of the people and their choice. If the people of the Gaza Strip wanted to be occupied by Israel then you might have a point... but they dont thus you dont.
As Noam Chomsky said, you cant call it self-defence when you are an occupying force. Paraphrased, obviously.
Danny Ocean: Seems this Iron Dome thing is super-effective. Those rockets barely even do anything any more.
What a threatened nation this regional power is. Sarcasm.
The Iron Dome is effective but it does not really matter, it might save lives but it wont stop the 800,000 people who are running for their lives to shelters countless times of day and waken in the middle of the night by air raid sirens.
This single post just proves how twisted your state of mind is, if some one is shooting while you're wearing a ballistic vest they are still shooting at you, the fact that you are protected does not decrease the severity of that action by even one bit, Israel as any other sovereign state is responsible to ensuring the safety of it own citizens first, the true impact on it's security or existence does not matter one bit the financial damages and the psychological effects are sufficient enough to turn Gaza into a parking lot, and i assure you that any other major power would've done that by now. ;)
Wonder how the UK would dealt with Scotland if they would be lobbying missiles over the border non-stop, we remember how it dealt with Argentina...
Scotland is a part of the UK... what are you talking about? That comparison makes no sense, that would be if Israel were bombing Southern Israel so Israel Bombs Northern Israel... ITS STILL ISRAEL. Also, another unfair comparison... The people of the Falklands want to remain part of the UK, while I hate Thatcher with every drop of my Yorkshire/Irish blood, it was technically in defence of the people and their choice. If the people of the Gaza Strip wanted to be occupied by Israel then you might have a point... but they dont thus you dont.
As Noam Chomsky said, you cant call it self-defence when you are an occupying force. Paraphrased, obviously.
This is the point where I stop. There is no apartheid in Israel, and had you learned the meaning of the word you use you would have known that.
This is a pretty childish response.
Apartheid is a fairly common accusation. It's been made by academics (including Israeli ones), human rights activists, foreign government officials (not just hostile ones, but also neutral ones from places like South Africa), Jimmy Carter the former President of the USA, UN officials and Special Rapporteur, etc.
It's not some fringe wacko can just handwave away with "you're obviously incorrect because I say so" as you've done in your post here. It's a mainstream opinion, not necessarily a majority one but common nonetheless, and I stand by it.
. I don't see it happening in Israel itself. I don't see the situation happening in the west bank as anything similar to an Apartheid. I firmly believe that calling it that is wrong and an attempt to try and brand Israel as a pariah the same way S. Africa was branded when it was legally segregating and oppressing some of its population.
South African Judge Richard Goldstone, author of the UN Goldstone Report, writing in The New York Times in October 2011, said that "in Israel, there is no apartheid. Nothing there comes close to the definition of apartheid under the 1998 Rome Statute." Goldstone noted that Arab citizens of Israel are allowed to vote, have political parties, and hold seats in the Knesset and other positions, including one on the Israeli Supreme Court. Goldstone wrote that the situation in the West Bank was more complex, but that there is no attempt to maintain "an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group", and claimed that the seemingly oppressive measures taken by Israel were taken to protect its own citizens from attacks by Palestinian militants.
When accusing Israel, people have repeatedly bent the rules and definitions of 'war-crimes' and 'crimes against humanity'. They have twisted what is happening right now in the west bank and tried to push it into the mold under the name of 'Apartheid'.
. You said - "Bomb the launch sites and be done with it. " Israel was bombing launch sites for the first 5 days and continued to do so. Since the negotiations were stuck while the Al-Qassam brass told the Hamas leadership they could carry on the fighting - and the IDF assassinated them. This is when they broke off and made more actions besides just bombing the launch sites. If you bomb the launch sites and be done with it it wouldn't take two weeks till Hamas fires rockets at Israel again and this whole thing happens again.
The only way to stop the bombs for a couple years is an invasion which would destroy the rapport with the Palestinians. And like I've already stated that's the same thing they always do and the same results will be achieved. Another problem in the next couple of years. If you want to read my full opinion I have plenty of posts where I have plainly stated it and why what I say is closer to truth than expecting the violence to suddenly end one day with people get board or some shit.
If Israel invades it's only going to recycle the same thing that happens every couple of years. If Israel didn't invade and instead let the Palestinians take Hamas out of power and just decided to instead destroy the rocket sites whenever they popped up it would benefit both Israel and Palestine. Israel wouldn't have to fund a ground campaign but could still keep the offensive abilities of palestine in check and Palestine would eventually see the struggle is going no where and not be enraged at an invasion.
. Your solution is to just keep bombing the fuck out of those launching sites again and again and again? Before the assassinations happened, around 40 people were already dead and hundreds wounded. How can Israel keep doing that every few months? Do you think that the world would see this in a better light than what Israel is doing right now and preparing to do in the near future? What about the people who live in terror in southern Israel every time these skirmishes continue, not to mention the palestinians living in Gaza.
Blockades, bombing civilians, soldiers stationed around it, etc... and arent they literally planning an invasion?
. you're just said things that are happening, but this doesn't point to an occupation. It's an arms embargo on Hamas, which is an enemy of Israel stationed in Gaza Strip. Bombing civilians is not something the IDF does deliberately. The army doesn't target citizens. Had it targeted civilians, this would have been entirely different.
They've been planning an invasion for a while now, what does that have to do with your allegations of Israel occupying Gaza?
Blockades, bombing civilians, soldiers stationed around it, etc... and arent they literally planning an invasion?
. you're just said things that are happening, but this doesn't point to an occupation. It's an arms embargo on Hamas, which is an enemy of Israel stationed in Gaza Strip. Bombing civilians is not something the IDF does deliberately. The army doesn't target citizens. Had it targeted civilians, this would have been entirely different.
They've been planning an invasion for a while now, what does that have to do with your allegations of Israel occupying Gaza?
You are very much downplaying the extent of the blockade, for fork sake they are limiting the amount of food allowed within Gaza. Given that they are self-proclaimed surgical strikes, I find it hard to believe the IDF dont know who they are bombing.
Let me ask... what do you call it when heavily armed people keep you in a place, control what you eat, what you can do, who you talk to in the outside world, all economic freedoms? I would call it imprisonment, incarceration, captivity, quarantine, confinement, etc.
A blockade is outside of an area and prevents items getting in. This is because of an embargo on Gaza which is completely legal, recognised by the UN and supported and enforced by Egypt. A blockade prevents items getting in and there are no Israelis or Egyptians inside Gaza to enforce this.
Israel is bombing military targets which Hamas sets up in residential areas, schools, mosques and playgrounds. You may not see a distinction, but it is a huge distinction. Israel frequently calls of strikes if it feels the risk to Gazan civilians is too high. Quite different from Hamas, a radical Islamist terror group who intentionally and indiscriminately target Israeli civilians. Hamas are responsible for painting a target as military by manufacturing, storing and launching attacks against Israeli civilians from them.
Kinguendo: and arent they literally planning an invasion?
Yes. The US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan but isn't an "occupying power" of either. Afghanistan has it's own government. So does Gaza. Tragically however Gaza's government treat their citizens like this, this, this, this and this. If an invasion does happen, they will withdraw afterward.
Here is some truly delicious irony for you to consider. In short, Israel had to temporarily suspend aid to Gaza and transferring medical patients from Gaza to Israel, because of Hamas rocket attacks.
Blockades, bombing civilians, soldiers stationed around it, etc... and arent they literally planning an invasion?
. you're just said things that are happening, but this doesn't point to an occupation. It's an arms embargo on Hamas, which is an enemy of Israel stationed in Gaza Strip. Bombing civilians is not something the IDF does deliberately. The army doesn't target citizens. Had it targeted civilians, this would have been entirely different.
They've been planning an invasion for a while now, what does that have to do with your allegations of Israel occupying Gaza?
You are very much downplaying the extent of the blockade, for fork sake they are limiting the amount of food allowed within Gaza. Given that they are self-proclaimed surgical strikes, I find it hard to believe the IDF dont know who they are bombing.
Let me ask... what do you call it when heavily armed people keep you in a place, control what you eat, what you can do, who you talk to in the outside world, all economic freedoms? I would call it imprisonment, incarceration, captivity, quarantine, confinement, etc.
. ...they are limiting the amount of food allowed within Gaza. The blockade on the Gaza strip is an arms embargo - any weapons or dual use items are prohibited from entering. There are three ways to get into and out of Gaza - The sea, Israel, and Egypt. Since Israel is blockading the Gaza Strip, it's preventing ships from docking in the strip's port and instead stop in Israel's port where the cargo is checked and then moved onward. Egypt had blocked the passage of goods to Gaza all this time, and you don't hear a peep about its blockade. When Cast Lead started, Mubarak said that anyone crossing the border would get shot.
Israel isn't required by law to supply Gaza with food or anything else. They do check the cargo that goes in the passages they control as a means to continue maintaining the arms embargo. The goods and services (electricity, for example, is mostly imported from Israel) Israel gives to the people of Gaza are done because of its humanitarian obligation as a country to not let the people in Gaza starve to death. Had Gaza not been taken over by a hostile 'political party' (with a big military arm) called Hamas, an organization that sets its goal to destroy Israel and rid Palestine of all the Jews, Gaza wouldn't be in this situation. Notice that unlike some claims, Israel is fighting against Hamas(&friends), not the people of Gaza.
Kinguendo: Let me ask... what do you call it when heavily armed people keep you in a place, control what you eat, what you can do, who you talk to in the outside world, all economic freedoms? I would call it imprisonment, incarceration, captivity, quarantine, confinement, etc.
Why is it then, that the West Bank has no such issues, if Israel is truly determined to be such an oppressor? The only difference between the two, the only factor that is any different is that Hamas rule in Gaza, while the West Bank is ruled by Fatah. Fatah are (generally) more moderate and willing to have dialogue with Israel. They are the only governing body recognised by the world at large. No country, not the US, not the EU, not one country, except for Iran, Saudi and other funders of terror attacks against Israel, will send *any* aid to Gaza as long as it is controlled by Hamas, a fundamentlist islamic terrorist organisation whose founding charter calls for the death of all Jews and the eradication of Israel. This is because the US and EU will not directly help terrorists.
Hamas are firing rockets at Israel. Letters to the UN went unanswered. Israel has to protect its citizens, that is what a government does. Unless that "government" is Hamas (see my above post). There are no rocket attacks coming out of the West Bank. Thus life is there is relatively normal. If Hamas were removed from control of Gaza and the rocket attacks stopped, there would be relative peace inside a day. The blockade would be gone, foreign aid would come in again. At some point, the Palestinians will realise that and decide that peace is preferable to Hamas.
KingsGambit: This is because of an embargo on Gaza which is completely legal, recognised by the UN and supported and enforced by Egypt. A blockade prevents items getting in and there are no Israelis or Egyptians inside Gaza to enforce this.
Citation required. Please link me to the UN statement of support.
Because multiple UN reports have stated the blockade is illegal and have condemed Israel for it.
You appear to be cherry picking one report, the UN 2011 Palmer Report.
You also appear to be ignoring that the Palmer Report was talking specifically about the NAVAL blockade.
You are also ignoring that the Palmer Report clearly states that it is not qualified to make findings on legal matters.
In 2009 UN Goldstone Report stated the Gazan blockade was possibly a crime against humanity, and recommended that the matter be referred to the International Criminal Court if the situation has not improved in six months.
In 2010 UNCHA "restrictions imposed on the civilian population by the continuing blockade of the Gaza Strip amount to collective punishment, a violation of international humanitarian law."
There are multiple legal opinions stating that the blockade is in violation of the Geneva Convention (which prohibits collective punishments of civilian populations for military actions).
The result of the blockade has been the destruction of the Gazan economy to the point where over 50% of Gazans do not have enough food (are 'food insecure').
You can just as easily argue that the German blockade of the Warsaw ghetto was legal.
Gorfias: More (albeit ignorant... I'm asking) do kids really play football so close to open hostilities?
The Gaza strip is not very wide, less than 5,000m (5Km) in many places (and densely populated) so there would not be many places more than 1,200m from a border (or coastline).
Prahaps this is one of the reasons Israel banned the importation of soccer balls into Gaza...
The Israelis are wrong and so is Hamas. The difference is that Israel holds all the cards and rather than attempting to negotiate a peace that works for both groups, they are aggressively oppressing people. And go figure, the oppressed people react back against their oppressors.
Also having only skimmed this thread I'm not sure if this was posted yet, but it deserves to be:
Mycroft Holmes: The Israelis are wrong and so is Hamas. The difference is that Israel holds all the cards and rather than attempting to negotiate a peace that works for both groups, they are aggressively oppressing people. And go figure, the oppressed people react back against their oppressors.
Also having only skimmed this thread I'm not sure if this was posted yet, but it deserves to be:
The argument that Palestinian actions are only reactionary is quite wrong, unless you count the existence of Israel or Jewish population in Palestine as "oppression".
Arab aggression against Israelis, and against Jews in the area predates any occupation, the establishment of the state of Israel, and even the Zionist immigration. Periodic pogroms against Jews by the local Arab populous were a common practice since the crusades.
There is no issue with negotiating with your enemy, but the basic premise for any negotiation is first and foremost - mutual acceptance. Hamas both in its manifesto, and daily outcries does not call for the "liberation" of the Palestinian people, but the destruction of the state of Israel, and Jews everywhere. It does not accept the legitimacy of the State of Israel in any borders and until that situation changes there little to talk about.
There is a very simple premise to the whole situation, don't fire rockets don't get JDAM's back, Israel is not conducting raids against the west bank for a reason, because there is no reason to do so. In the west bank there is security and economical cooperation, and although their life still are quite bad(sadly the west bank has still one of the highest standards of living in the Arab world) they are not being bombed by Israeli fighter jets and artillery.
KingsGambit: This is because of an embargo on Gaza which is completely legal, recognised by the UN and supported and enforced by Egypt. A blockade prevents items getting in and there are no Israelis or Egyptians inside Gaza to enforce this.
Citation required. Please link me to the UN statement of support.
Because multiple UN reports have stated the blockade is illegal and have condemed Israel for it.
You appear to be cherry picking one report, the UN 2011 Palmer Report.
You also appear to be ignoring that the Palmer Report was talking specifically about the NAVAL blockade.
You are also ignoring that the Palmer Report clearly states that it is not qualified to make findings on legal matters.
In 2009 UN Goldstone Report stated the Gazan blockade was possibly a crime against humanity, and recommended that the matter be referred to the International Criminal Court if the situation has not improved in six months.
In 2010 UNCHA "restrictions imposed on the civilian population by the continuing blockade of the Gaza Strip amount to collective punishment, a violation of international humanitarian law."
There are multiple legal opinions stating that the blockade is in violation of the Geneva Convention (which prohibits collective punishments of civilian populations for military actions).
The result of the blockade has been the destruction of the Gazan economy to the point where over 50% of Gazans do not have enough food (are 'food insecure').
You can just as easily argue that the German blockade of the Warsaw ghetto was legal.
Gorfias: More (albeit ignorant... I'm asking) do kids really play football so close to open hostilities?
The Gaza strip is not very wide, less than 5,000m (5Km) in many places (and densely populated) so there would not be many places more than 1,200m from a border (or coastline).
Prahaps this is one of the reasons Israel banned the importation of soccer balls into Gaza...
. Only if you follow the narrative some people lay out where Apartheid and ethnic cleansing is rampant in Israel and the other territories (west bank&Gaza) will you buy into the allegations that Israel is blockading Gaza as a part of a collective punishment against all Gazans.
You compared the situation going on there to the Holocaust. This only shows how disturbed and fucked up these 'opinions' are. You've called Israel Nazi Germany, the IDF the Wehrmacht, Palestinians the Jews in Nazi-era Europe and Gaza the new Warsaw ghetto. I'm done with you. You disgust me.
Most of the discussions in this thread seem unproductive. It doesn't look like it's possible to persuade any of the Israelis on here that they are in any way wrong, or even ethically questionable. Not one little bit.
Danny Ocean: Most of the discussions in this thread seem unproductive. It doesn't look like it's possible to persuade any of the Israelis on here that they are in any way wrong, or even ethically questionable. Not one little bit.
The argument that Palestinian actions are only reactionary is quite wrong, unless you count the existence of Israel or Jewish population in Palestine as "oppression".
I count the systematic demolition of the homes of innocent people living in land Israel took in a war of aggression as oppression, yes.
Also the covert murder squads that the Mossad began as and still often operate as.
Also blockading aid from entering Palestine.
Also repeatedly blocking the UN from being allowed to declare them a state, essentially keeping them in an even more powerless limbo status.
Also the partitioning of Palestine by the UN against the will of the Palestinian people living there. Can you imagine if the UN came over to your house and said get out we are giving it to someone else because something bad(that you had nothing to do with) happened to them? Because that's exactly what happened to Palestine. And when they didn't want to give up their homes the Mossad started gunning down dissenters with Uzis.
Arab aggression against Israelis, and against Jews in the area predates any occupation, the establishment of the state of Israel, and even the Zionist immigration. Periodic pogroms against Jews by the local Arab populous were a common practice since the crusades.
That was then and this is now. Or do I get to kill innocent people because their ancestors were assholes to the Irish?
But the Irish never did that in the US did they. Hmm I wonder why that is? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that we accepted them into the culture instead of aggressively and violently forming a pro-everyone-who-isn't-Irish government, and then bulldozing all the Irish homes.
There is no issue with negotiating with your enemy, but the basic premise for any negotiation is first and foremost - mutual acceptance.
No it isn't. The premise for negotiation is that both sides of something to be gained(or to not be lost) by negotiating.
Verbatim: Hamas both in its manifesto, and daily outcries does not call for the "liberation" of the Palestinian people, but the destruction of the state of Israel, and Jews everywhere. It does not accept the legitimacy of the State of Israel in any borders and until that situation changes there little to talk about.
Firstly I already said Hamas is wrong so I'm not sure exactly wtf you are trying to argue.
Secondly, Israel is by self-admission a fundamentally racist state.
Thirdly, it was founded by land taken from the Palestinians by forcible partitioning enforced by the US and the USSR in the aftermath of WW2, and unsuccessfully protested by the UK, the Palestinians and other Arabic populations. And when the Palestinians didn't want to get out the Israelis formed elite murder squads called the Mossad to do away with dissenters and protestors.
Fourthly, the only source I can find calling for the death of all Jews is by Ahmad Bahr who is a single politician, not their leader, just a deputy speaker for one of their parliamentary territories. Using him as a source for the entire government is silly. You might as well say that the entire US government wants to transvaginal ultrasound all women because a couple of politicians verbally supported the bill.
Fifthly, honestly what the hell do you expect, it was Palestinian land that they were forcibly evicted from by the UN and Israelis. Why wouldn't they want the rest of their homeland back?
Sixthly, the Jewish population did not need a state of their own. They did not need to bulldoze and steal Palestinian homes. They did not need to carry and continue to constantly carry out assassinations. All they needed was a land that allowed them to practice their religion in peace without trying to murder all of them. Is it too crazy for me to suggest that instead of showing up and bunch of guns and a piece of paper telling the Palestinians to GTFO, they should have tried I don't know immigrating to the US where we have religious freedom laws and very rarely commit genocide?
There is a very simple premise to the whole situation, don't fire rockets don't get JDAM's back
Again it was originally their land unless you're really going to cite the Roman Diaspora of the Jews. Which again is ridiculous, you have to deal with the now not the then(unless of course you want to agree that the American Indian's have the right to start killing other ethnic groups in the US.) And the now when Israel took the land, was that it belonged to the Palestinians who had been inhabiting it for thousands of years.
If I steal your wallet, you come after me, and I start punching you in the face until you can't fight back anymore. And then I proceed to parade around afterwards for months with your wallet and refuse to give it back. Every time you call the police they side with me, and every time you try to get it back I beat the shit out of you. Who is in the right? Because that's what don't fire rockets at us or we will kick the everloving shit out of you is.
In the west bank there is security and economical cooperation, and although their life still are quite bad(sadly the west bank has still one of the highest standards of living in the Arab world) they are not being bombed by Israeli fighter jets and artillery.
Yes, and prostitutes with abusive pimps are better off financially than those that aren't. And the slaves on American plantations were more economically well off than they were after they were freed, and they were way less prone to being lynched. Boy, we should all be so lucky to be conquered by Israel and threatened daily with military force if we are unhappy about being invaded.
Update: A bus blew up in Tel-Aviv, ten injured moderately to lightly. Hamas said it would, and it delivered. I can see this pushing the decision makers to invade Gaza Strip.
Whats the point of the graphs and the sarcastic remark at the end of your post?
It's not sarcastic. Don't be so defensive.
TheIronRuler: Update: A bus blew up in Tel-Aviv, ten injured moderately to lightly.
Is that it? Moderately to lightly? When blowing up a bus? Was it empty or something?
Hamas really suck at this stuff.
Seems like a full-on invasion would be a bit OTT. It didn't work in Ireland, so I don't think it'll work in Gaza. Just do what the British did and negotiate on the down-low so neither leader has to worry about saving face.
That was priceless thank you, I've never seen such crazy tales even coming from Hamas state media.
You avoid attacking specifics because everything I said is logical and correct. You should probably read some history or the news some time.
. No it wasn't - Just to pick a few problems:
Also the partitioning of Palestine by the UN against the will of the Palestinian people living there. Can you imagine if the UN came over to your house and said get out we are giving it to someone else because something bad(that you had nothing to do with) happened to them? Because that's exactly what happened to Palestine. And when they didn't want to give up their homes the Mossad started gunning down dissenters with Uzis
The UN never did partition Palestine. The plan was up, but it never came into effect because the Palestinians refused. The day after the declaration in the UN the local Palestinians attacked Jews in several attacks, two were anbushes against buses filled with Jews who were going to work in the morning killing 6 and injuring a dozen or two more, second is an sniper in Jaffa who killed at least one Jew in the city. This opened the gate to a war between the local Arabs and the local Jews.
The Mossad was created after the '47-'49 war in '49. Uzis were first produced in 1954 after that first conflict.
Thirdly, it was founded by land taken from the Palestinians by forcible partitioning enforced by the US and the USSR in the aftermath of WW2, and unsuccessfully protested by the UK, the Palestinians and other Arabic populations. And when the Palestinians didn't want to get out the Israelis formed elite murder squads called the Mossad to do away with dissenters and protestors.
Again, Mossad didn't exist back then. It was an intelligence agency, much like the CIA was in the USA.
Bomb the launch sites and be done with it. Israel is planning a full scale invasion and is attacking assassinating hamas targets 5 so far I believe is what I read. In there hoes or markets or where ever. There are people getting hurt in these explosions including journalists in one tower that had a prominent official at the top.
They've set the ground invasion dead line for Friday. If they invade there will be a problem, since most of hamas rockets are gone for the moment Israel should say they will cease fire for the next two days and Hamas should do the same. Israel keeps saying if they don't stop firing we won't and Hamas is saying the same thing. It's time for Israel to be the bigger man and say we're stopping you have a day or two to do the same. If that fails a ground assault is still too much.