Woman 'denied a termination' dies in hospital

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There are very few times that I can recall where I've been so angry that I'm physically shaking, but, well, this is one of those times.

So, to those of you who don't know, Ireland is a country where the catholic church is very entrenched. As such, abortion legislation dictates that a pregnancy cannot be terminated if there is a heart beat. Because of this, a 31 year old dentist spent 2 and a half days in agony before succumbing to septicaemia a week later.

Regardless of your stance on a woman's right to her body and a foetuses right to life, I hope we can all agree that a doctor's priority should be saving the lives of as many patients as possible, and that one saved is better than two dead. But that's my opinion, what do my fellow escapists think?

I don't think you are going to find many people who will argue that one saved isn't better than two dead, at least not ones whose posts you'll want to keep reading.

Very, very obviously a black and white issue here.

Well it's the RC. The well being of consciousness means jack diddly squat if it interferes with the glorious material achievement of the flesh.

I despise cases like this, where religion effects the law.
That woman should not be dead. Catholicism, by causing that law to be passed, is responsible for that woman's death.

I personally support abortions close to birth: a baby is a rather dumb creature. It is not really a person: the life of a newborn should be given away in a heartbeat to save the life of a grown individual.

It's absolutely tragic.

It's shameful that it's taken a young woman's death to force our government and media to deal with our vague abortion laws. There is currently a growing protest outside the Dail, hopefully now they'll start making changes.

GiglameshSoulEater:
I despise cases like this, where religion effects the law.
That woman should not be dead. Catholicism, by causing that law to be passed, is responsible for that woman's death.

I personally support abortions close to birth: a baby is a rather dumb creature. It is not really a person: the life of a newborn should be given away in a heartbeat to save the life of a grown individual.

No, just no. Abortion to save the mom's life, ok. But saying you support abortions close to birth because baby's are rather dumb creatures is just plainly wrong. Maybe we should "abort" mentally handicapped people because they are "rather dumb creatures" too. I find your stance as appalling as the one of those who decided the woman had to die for whatever dumb religious reason.

How tragic. Neither the baby or the mother survived.

I wasn't aware things were this bad in Ireland. Heartbeat? That's ridiculous! It's a muscle!

Friendly Lich:
How tragic. Neither the baby or the mother survived.

Here's the kicker, they knew the foetus was never going to survive right from the outset.

Colour-Scientist:

Friendly Lich:
How tragic. Neither the baby or the mother survived.

Here's the kicker, they knew the foetus was never going to survive right from the outset.

This is a disgrace.. Now, I hate everyone in the same place agreeing with eachother, especcialy on a political forum as it only serves for everyone to get fired up.. But.

Anyone who thinks that the doctors did the right thing. The doctors... The people who stood for creating the possibility for this to happens. Deserve no respect, and deserve life much less than the lady whom had to die because of their decisions.

Rainboq:
Regardless of your stance on a woman's right to her body and a foetuses right to life, I hope we can all agree that a doctor's priority should be saving the lives of as many patients as possible, and that one saved is better than two dead. But that's my opinion, what do my fellow escapists think?

It's a medical principle that a mother's life comes before the baby and as far as I'm aware Ireland has the same basic medical courses as the rest of Europe and the US. Regardless of that it should be morally reasonable as well.
Whoever decided for not aborting the fetus should have been medically well-aware of the possible consequences, otherwise I'd question the hospital's competence). The only question is if it would have been possible to save the mother's life at all but there'll be an autopsy to clear that issue and then that person will have to face the appropriate consequences. Especially with media coverage...

I'd also like to make it clear that this wasn't a failure of any abortion laws because those hold no authority whatsoever over critical medical decisions, if anything it was a failure on the treating doctor's part, be it related or unrelated to the legal abortion stance.

Stupid, almost indescribably so. Even the RCC official stance is that a pregnancy may be terminated if the life of the mother is at risk. It's not a good thing in their eyes, but it's acceptable.

Colour-Scientist:

Friendly Lich:
How tragic. Neither the baby or the mother survived.

Here's the kicker, they knew the foetus was never going to survive right from the outset.

I saw a documentary on illegal abortions back in the day, and a lot of women were forced to go illegal if they wanted to survive, because the laws were so pants-on-head retarded. Made life hard for a lot of people. This goes to show the importance of cheap, easy abortions.

Here's some article about an abortion study or whatever.

What I type next could be seen as a rant, this is due to me being Northern Irish, so this can't really be helped.

RoI is quite heavily catholic, they are heavily against abortions like most catholic nations/states to the point that they have the highest rate of Downs Syndrome in Europe. During the ParaOlympics a man won a race and his mother said on television: "He had the best medical care available in the UK after being born with Downs Syndrome and now he's won a medal for Ireland"
My Dad then has a rant on how he leeched off the UK's NHS to get it treated and then stabs them in the back to win a medal for Ireland.

So because the woman didn't get an abortion this man was born with downs Syndrome and then had the UK's NHS pay for his care. Or better yet the mother could have just not had sex and then she wouldn't have a son with a mental disability.

[Insert generic arguments/rants on how abortion should be legal]

Now maybe the abortion stance in catholic nations can start to change now that they can see that their worshipers are dying because of their silly ideas about abortions.
I personally don't like abortions, because it gets uncomfortably close to killing a living baby for me and if you don't want to be pregnant you should have used a condom or taken the pill.

Quaxar:

I'd also like to make it clear that this wasn't a failure of any abortion laws because those hold no authority whatsoever over critical medical decisions, if anything it was a failure on the treating doctor's part, be it related or unrelated to the legal abortion stance.

Actually, that's exactly what it was.

Hazzard:
I personally don't like abortions, because it gets uncomfortably close to killing a living baby for me and if you don't want to be pregnant you should have used a condom or taken the pill.

What about rape?

Hazzard:
What I type next could be seen as a rant, this is due to me being Northern Irish, so this can't really be helped.

RoI is quite heavily catholic, they are heavily against abortions like most catholic nations/states to the point that they have the highest rate of Downs Syndrome in Europe. During the ParaOlympics a man won a race and his mother said on television: "He had the best medical care available in the UK after being born with Downs Syndrome and now he's won a medal for Ireland"
My Dad then has a rant on how he leeched off the UK's NHS to get it treated and then stabs them in the back to win a medal for Ireland.

So because the woman didn't get an abortion this man was born with downs Syndrome and then had the UK's NHS pay for his care. Or better yet the mother could have just not had sex and then she wouldn't have a son with a mental disability.

[Insert generic arguments/rants on how abortion should be legal]

Now maybe the abortion stance in catholic nations can start to change now that they can see that their worshipers are dying because of their silly ideas about abortions.
I personally don't like abortions, because it gets uncomfortably close to killing a living baby for me and if you don't want to be pregnant you should have used a condom or taken the pill.

This is a huge post of ill-informed drivel.

Where to even begin.
Firstly, we've passed referendums to make abortions legal where the mother's life would be in danger. About 80 per cent of the population approve of abortion in these situations but it has never been put into legislation. This is the fault of the chickenshits in the Dail. The laws regarding abortion have been heavily contested for quite some time but politicians don't want to touch it.

Your Dad's nationalism is pretty ignorant if he thinks that a Down syndrome child should have been aborted because he used the NHS and then won a medal for the South.

Finally, you think that catholic abortion views are silly but you have a problem with them because if a woman gets pregnant that's her problem?

Colour-Scientist:
Here's the kicker, they knew the foetus was never going to survive right from the outset.

Which makes me wonder why the article didn't have a paragraph along the lines of "The doctor who was supposed to treat the woman, has been suspended by the hospital, awaiting the permanent loss his medical license".
Ireland, ur doing it wrong.

Hazzard:
I personally don't like abortions, because it gets uncomfortably close to killing a living baby for me and if you don't want to be pregnant you should have used a condom or taken the pill.

The vast, vast, vast majority of abortions involve sex where contraceptives were used.

Leading causes (according to Rutgers-Nisso research, Netherlands) are incorrect use of contraceptives, hinted that's mainly due to to religious taboo on said contraceptives and sex as a whole. The cases where contraceptives weren't used, respondents often stated it was the taboo on contraceptives which drove them to not use them. Another category is sex without contraceptives in traditional religious cultures where women are inferior, and as such can't demand the use of contraceptives, while the man is entitled to demand sex. Religious minorities where sex is taboo show 3-4 times the abortion rate of natives (which also include orthodox Christians with much higher abortion rates, so go figure).

So basically the churches indirectly cause the abortions they have such a problem with, the irony...

Blablahb:

Colour-Scientist:
Here's the kicker, they knew the foetus was never going to survive right from the outset.

Which makes me wonder why the article didn't have a paragraph along the lines of "The doctor who was supposed to treat the woman, has been suspended by the hospital, awaiting the permanent loss his medical license".
Ireland, ur doing it wrong.

Hazzard:
I personally don't like abortions, because it gets uncomfortably close to killing a living baby for me and if you don't want to be pregnant you should have used a condom or taken the pill.

The vast, vast, vast majority of abortions involve sex where contraceptives were used.

Leading causes (according to Ruthers-Nisso research, Netherlands) are incorrect use of contraceptives, hinted that's mainly due to to religious taboo on said contraceptives and sex as a whole. The cases where contraceptives weren't used, respondents often stated it was the taboo on contraceptives which drove them to not use them. Another category is sex without contraceptives in traditional religious cultures where women are inferior, and as such can't demand the use of contraceptives, while the man is entitled to demand sex. Religious minorities where sex is taboo show 3-4 times the abortion rate of natives (which also include orthodox Christians with much higher abortion rates, so go figure).

So basically the churches indirectly cause the abortions they have such a problem with, the irony...

But an unsurprising one at that.

"Gee, we didn't know that telling an unstable, violent nation that gays were servants of the devil would actually get them KILLED!"

"Gee, we had no idea tellng people that contraception was evil would result in rampant spread of AIDS!"

Guh.

Blablahb:

Colour-Scientist:
Here's the kicker, they knew the foetus was never going to survive right from the outset.

Which makes me wonder why the article didn't have a paragraph along the lines of "The doctor who was supposed to treat the woman, has been suspended by the hospital, awaiting the permanent loss his medical license".
Ireland, ur doing it wrong.

It's currently under investigation but for the past 20 years Irish abortion law has been one huge grey area. It was decided that abortion would be allowed where the mother's life was at risk, not her health. It was never put into legislation and still hasn't to this day. So, it's legal but not really. It's something people have consistently protested but has only come under intense, mass scrutiny in the past year or so. Politicians won't touch it because they're worried about backlash. As far as they're concerned women who get pregnant can fuck off to England if they want one so bad. Never mind the expense, stress and health risks involved in travelling to get an abortion.

The main source of contention among people seems to be under what situations abortion should be legal. Personally, I'm fully pro-choice but a lot of people are only able to accept in situations involving rape or health risks.

Due to the law being so ridiculously vague, it's no wonder that doctors are hesitant to act.

Oddly enough, the biggest pro-life groups in the country are funded by Amerixans, not Irish sources.

Colour-Scientist:
Where to even begin.
Firstly, we've passed referendums to make abortions legal where the mother's life would be in danger. About 80 per cent of the population approve of abortion in these situations but it has never been put into legislation. This is the fault of the chickenshits in the Dail. The laws regarding abortion have been heavily contested for quite some time but politicians don't want to touch it.

That's all well and good, but at the end of the day, abortion is still illegal in Ireland, evidently even when the result of denying one is death, and the population is too lame and apathetic to do something about it.

I don't think you can launch a rant at Hazzard like that, since being too apathetic to legalise, or being in favour of keeping it illegal despite the cruelty of that, are basically the same things, in their effects they are at least.

You may want it to be different, and that's good, but right now it isn't.

It may change now that there's a case in the media where someone died for the religious bigotry though. That would be nice.

Colour-Scientist:

Quaxar:

I'd also like to make it clear that this wasn't a failure of any abortion laws because those hold no authority whatsoever over critical medical decisions, if anything it was a failure on the treating doctor's part, be it related or unrelated to the legal abortion stance.

Actually, that's exactly what it was.

Not sure if you agree or disagree with my statement because yours can be interpreted in two or even more ways.

Blablahb:

Colour-Scientist:
Where to even begin.
Firstly, we've passed referendums to make abortions legal where the mother's life would be in danger. About 80 per cent of the population approve of abortion in these situations but it has never been put into legislation. This is the fault of the chickenshits in the Dail. The laws regarding abortion have been heavily contested for quite some time but politicians don't want to touch it.

That's all well and good, but at the end of the day, abortion is still illegal in Ireland, evidently even when the result of denying one is death, and the population is too lame and apathetic to do something about it.

I don't think you can launch a rant at Hazzard like that, since being too apathetic to legalise, or being in favour of keeping it illegal despite the cruelty of that, are basically the same things, in their effects they are at least.

You may want it to be different, and that's good, but right now it isn't.

It may change now that there's a case in the media where someone died for the religious bigotry though. That would be nice.

Excuse me, people here have been trying to change it for a very long time. A bill was even introduced earlier this year.

What makes you think the population is in any way apathetic?

Quaxar:

Colour-Scientist:

Quaxar:

I'd also like to make it clear that this wasn't a failure of any abortion laws because those hold no authority whatsoever over critical medical decisions, if anything it was a failure on the treating doctor's part, be it related or unrelated to the legal abortion stance.

Actually, that's exactly what it was.

Not sure if you agree or disagree with my statement because yours can be interpreted in two or even more ways.

It was a complete failure of Irish abortion laws.

Colour-Scientist:
Excuse me, people here have been trying to change it for a very long time. A bill was even introduced earlier this year.
What makes you think the population is in any way apathetic?

Abortion is illegal, and someone died for it. Quod erat demonstrandum.
If the average Irish person cared, it would've been fixed already. It hasn't, so they don't.

I also would like some things about my country and its population to be untrue, but if it isn't, hey, can't do but admit we collectively got it wrong here and there. Just because I want it to be different, doesn't mean that it is. Because you're Irish, and in favour of ending the unjust and oppressive ban on abortion, which is good, doesn't mean the Irish want that, unfortunately.

This is one area where most of the pro-lifers I know (and I also, when I used to be one) part ways with the Catholic Church; they think that it is acceptable in the case of the life of the mother being endangered (also a lot of them are pro-birth control because less unwanted pregnancies = less abortions).

It reminds me again of the idea that: If men were the ones getting pregnant - the Catholic Church would declare abortion a sacrament.

Colour-Scientist:

Quaxar:

Colour-Scientist:

Actually, that's exactly what it was.

Not sure if you agree or disagree with my statement because yours can be interpreted in two or even more ways.

It was a complete failure of Irish abortion laws.

I'm no anti-abortionist but I still fail to see why a doctor violating the medical standards by refusing treatment well inside the legal boundaries is the fault of said law (that wouldn't even have been broken). And even if it would've been a violating of abortion law, so what? I can't imagine a court would actually prosecute for saving one life over none if it was medically justified.

Like I have stated above, if anything it is the fault of the treating gynaecologist, either for making a wrong medical descision or for letting his religious believes interfer with his job.

Quaxar:

Colour-Scientist:

Quaxar:

Not sure if you agree or disagree with my statement because yours can be interpreted in two or even more ways.

It was a complete failure of Irish abortion laws.

I'm no anti-abortionist but I still fail to see why a doctor violating the medical standards by refusing treatment well inside the legal boundaries is the fault of said law (that wouldn't even have been broken). And even if it would've been a violating of abortion law, so what? I can't imagine a court would actually prosecute for saving one life over none if it was medically justified.

Like I have stated above, if anything it is the fault of the treating gynaecologist, either for making a wrong medical descision or for letting his religious believes interfer with his job.

If you know anything about Irish abortion laws, you know that the doctor wasn't inside the legal boundaries, they're very unclear. He might not be prosecuted but the doctor could have lost his/her medical licence.

As a catholic, I'm saddened by this turn of events. Usually I'm in the middle of the abortion stance and leaning towards "Pro-Life" right now I can say quite firmly that I'm totally against abortion as a form of "contraception". Yet as you said yourself, one life lost to save another life is better than two lives lost for nothing.

There was something that my "Social Justice" class was discussing about Abortion, I forgot what it was called, but it was essentially the church saying "If the fetus has to die to save the mother, than it's not an 'abortion' exactly, but a life saving surgery for the mother and can be allowed."

It's such a shame that woman had to die.

Colour-Scientist:

Quaxar:

Colour-Scientist:

It was a complete failure of Irish abortion laws.

I'm no anti-abortionist but I still fail to see why a doctor violating the medical standards by refusing treatment well inside the legal boundaries is the fault of said law (that wouldn't even have been broken). And even if it would've been a violating of abortion law, so what? I can't imagine a court would actually prosecute for saving one life over none if it was medically justified.

Like I have stated above, if anything it is the fault of the treating gynaecologist, either for making a wrong medical descision or for letting his religious believes interfer with his job.

If you know anything about Irish abortion laws, you know that the doctor wasn't inside the legal boundaries, they're very unclear. He might not be prosecuted but the doctor could have lost his/her medical licence.

I don't know anything about those Irish laws apart from a quick Wikipedia search that says it's legal to save a life but I'd have presumed that vague boundaries and medical necessity would be good enough factors. Besides, I'd much rather lose my license for an illegal abortion than negligence.

considering the hypocratic oath that all doctors are meant to live by states:
THE HEALTH OF MY PATIENT will be my first consideration;

I WILL NOT PERMIT considerations of age, disease or disability, creed, ethnic origin, gender, nationality, political affiliation, race, sexual orientation, social standing or any other factor to intervene between my duty and my patient;

it maybe the law there and they followed that law to the letter but they killed a woman doing it and there is no excuse for it

This is why I'm for abortion. So that there's always a choice, despite what people may believe about it.

I doubt anyone who's pro-life would agree with this case, because this was a special case of stupid, but in case anyone does "Who are the murderers now"?

Lets look at the bright side: she sacrificed herself for something that may end up in changing stupid laws.
lets look at the dark side: the religious people may convert more irish people into thinking "She deserved it" because believe it or not, that works for religion.

wombat_of_war:
considering the hypocratic oath that all doctors are meant to live by states:
THE HEALTH OF MY PATIENT will be my first consideration;

I WILL NOT PERMIT considerations of age, disease or disability, creed, ethnic origin, gender, nationality, political affiliation, race, sexual orientation, social standing or any other factor to intervene between my duty and my patient;

it maybe the law there and they followed that law to the letter but they killed a woman doing it and there is no excuse for it

The hippocratic oath is more of a guideline in the real world. Also there isn't just one oath and not all doctors give an oath (especially in the UK/Ireland).

I'll tell you a story from Africa.
There was a place where people would be punished by x amount lashes for doing "wrong".
A doctor had to clear these people for the whipping, people could choose not to have the punishment done to them if they weren't able to take it however that meant harassment for the family, food they would never get, medicin etc.
People begged the doctor to clear them so their families wouldn't suffer.

Sometimes you have to be pratical.

It's "Hippocratic Oath". It makes it sound like it's about hypocrisy otherwise. *rolleyes*
Also, while it's outdated, there is an updated version that physician still hold to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Geneva

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