What does "Died for your sins" mean?

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So I keep hearing this phrase, Jesus Christ Died For Your Sins, John Dillinger Died For Your Sins (Illuminatus!) etc.

Sometimes it's changed to "Paid for your sins", this makes slightly more sense, but I really don't see how whipping, salt, a crown of thorns and crucifixion, though pretty nasty, add up to the punishment for all the sin that's been committed so far.

Or are the "sins" in that phrase the "original sin", somehow inherited as our tendency to reach for forbidden fruit to find out what it tastes like, or press the big red button saying "do not press" to find out what it does.

I still suspect that all the wrong done in the name of curiosity and freedom adds up to a bit more.

To my understanding, it's both: The main thing is original sin, yes, which is inherited by every human being who ever lived and lives, but it's also about your other sins. To understand the concept, you need to also understand the history behind it: Sacrificing animals to assuage their god was a rite long used. Basically, Jesus works along the same lines as a sacrificial lamb, it's just that because he was supposed to be the god's son and also blame- and sinless (unlike everybody else), that his sacrifice "weighs more". So much more in fact that everybody is forgiven for everything, but especially the original sin part, provided they believe in the arrangement/are baptised in Jesus' name. He's even referred to as "the lamb of god" sometimes for that reason. It's also why it was such a big deal in the past when children died before being baptised: While they didn't have time to amass their own sins, original sin still "stuck" to them in those interpretations, so there was a whole lot of discourse on whether they would end up in hell despite not having done anything wrong themselves. It's why limbo was created, a place of non-suffering compatible with the lack of salvation for those children (although as far as I know it's now been removed again and babies simply directly go to heaven).

It means if we stop sinning, they died for nothing.

thaluikhain:
It means if we stop sinning, they died for nothing.

Indeed, so to maximise 'sacrifice value' people should sin at every opportunity.

Although... you know, being dead for 3 days doesn't seem like that much of a sacrifice. Sounds more like a long weekend in Launceston.

RhombusHatesYou:

thaluikhain:
It means if we stop sinning, they died for nothing.

Indeed, so to maximise 'sacrifice value' people should sin at every opportunity.

Although... you know, being dead for 3 days doesn't seem like that much of a sacrifice. Sounds more like a long weekend in Launceston.

He did suffer on the cross for an extended period of time, though.
Then again, after that he went to heaven, so a few days suffering on the cross and then an eternity in heaven..Doesn't seem so bad, does it?

Edit: Also, Fallout 1 reference. I approve.

Actually, Realitycrash, Jesus first supposedly went to hell for those three days to suffer for us. Only when his grave was empty and some of his followers met him later on did he actually ascend to heaven. Still, three days in hell for him compared to an eternity for people who don't follow him seems very, very off. But then again, plenty of people don't believe that folks go to hell just for not believing or believing in the wrong gods. It all depends on their interpretation. *shrugs*

Skeleon:
Actually, Realitycrash, Jesus first supposedly went to hell for those three days to suffer for us. Only when his grave was empty and some of his followers met him later on did he actually ascend to heaven. Still, three days in hell for him compared to an eternity for people who don't follow him seems very, very off. But then again, plenty of people don't believe that folks go to hell just for not believing or believing in the wrong gods. It all depends on their interpretation. *shrugs*

Granted, I'm no Religious-scholar, but where is this stated? Is it an apochrypic thing or really in the bible?
As you pointed out, it's still rather irrelevant, as three days in hell does not compare to an eternity in heaven.
(Unless time flows differently in Hell, where three days can really be experienced as an eternity)

Realitycrash, I don't think it's stated outright anywhere (like so many things that people believe), but there are references used, such as him being "in the heart of the Earth", having "descended to the lower levels of Earth", "leading captives" out to salvation etc.. If there's a spot where it's outright stated, I'm not aware of it, but the people who believe it have a number of verses to base their interpretation on, sure.

Even if time flows differently and three days feel like an eternity, what does that make eternity? Eternity^eternity? Numbers don't work that way. ;-)

Coppernerves:
So I keep hearing this phrase, Jesus Christ Died For Your Sins

Theologically speaking...

Under old Jewish law, sins could be punishable on earth by one's fellow men. By dying on the cross for our sins, Jesus substituted himself for this earthly atonement, therefore meaning that divine/spritual judgement was reserved to God, and not men.

Of course, your fellow humans could still punish you for transgression anyway; they just no longer had a divine mandate / religious justification to do so.

realitycrash:
Granted, I'm no Religious-scholar, but where is this stated? Is it an apochrypic thing or really in the bible?
As you pointed out, it's still rather irrelevant, as three days in hell does not compare to an eternity in heaven.
(Unless time flows differently in Hell, where three days can really be experienced as an eternity)

There are only a few very vague biblical references, and not every sect agrees it happened at all, about par for the course when it comes to doctrine.

But the event is referred to alternatively as the Harrowing of Hell and simply Descent into Hell.

What exactly happened according to church sources is... debated, but the most common interpretation is that JC led an exodus after enduring conflicting accounts of punishment, defeating the forces of Pandemonium in the process. Apparently, prior to this event EVERYONE went to hell, From Adam and Eve to Moses to king David to every poor SOB who never even heard of any monotheistic religions. Again according to most interpretations (although they don't quite phrase it as I do), JC led the particularly righteous members of the Hebrew religion to heaven, gave the middle finger salute to everyone else stuck down there, then popped off to play mind games with his grieving followers.

Heronblade:

There are only a few very vague biblical references, and not every sect agrees it happened at all, about par for the course when it comes to doctrine.

But the event is referred to alternatively as the Harrowing of Hell and simply Descent into Hell.

What exactly happened according to church sources is... debated, but the most common interpretation is that JC led an exodus, defeating the forces of Pandemonium in the process.

JC led the particularly righteous members of the Hebrew religion to heaven, gave the middle finger salute to everyone else stuck down there, then popped off to play mind games with his grieving followers.

I've cut a lot out of that post, so I may be putting words in Heronblades' mouth there or taking stuff out of context.

Any way, does anyone know which part that is, book, chapter, verse etc. ? I don't have to believe in hell or god to reckon it sounds like cool comic book materiel.

Actually do you think we should have a thread for parts of religious texts and legends that would look awesome in a comic?

coppernerves:
I've cut a lot out of that post, so I may be putting words in Heronblades' mouth there or taking stuff out of context.

Any way, does anyone know which part that is, book, chapter, verse etc. ? I don't have to believe in hell or god to reckon it sounds like cool comic book materiel.

Actually do you think we should have a thread for parts of religious texts and legends that would look awesome in a comic?

The wikipedia article on the event lists all of the biblical phrases I'm aware of. There isn't much there I'm afraid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell

Most of the "official" information on the subject is depicted in a variety of sermons and homilies, such as this one: http://thecuratesdesk.org/2012/04/07/the-lords-descent-into-hell-a-reading-from-an-ancient-homily-for-holy-saturday/

For a slightly less dry source, the first book of Dante's Divine Comedy includes a description of the event from the perspective of the greek poet Virgil. Of course, much of Inferno makes for excellent comic book material anyways.

Sorry about the partial quotes, for some reason my links aren't working correctly today.

So, you start with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. Satan tempts Eve to eat the fruit of knowledge, and Eve now introduced to the delights of sin tempts Adam to eat it. Now Adam and Eve know what sin is, and of course god throws them out of Paradise for being impure.

So, in the Catholic tradition, one need not just commit a sinful action to be impure. A sinful idea, urge, or thought will do, so it is fundamentally impossible for a human being to be without sin, and even a single sin will get you sent to hell for eternity. The only person without sinful urges and thoughts was Jesus (allegedly) so when he gave his life when he was crucified* god took this as a reason to erase original sin, and somehow accepting Jesus...undoes original sin because...what? I mean, I know plenty of Christians who are far from 'pure' so it can't be that having "Jesus in your heart" makes you not sin.

Really, the more I try to approach it analytically, the more BS it is.

*Fun fact: he was also likely sodomized before the crucifixion. Romans did not treat their convicts well, and it would have been far from the first time. Kind of ironic that, according to the Bible, this means Jesus engaged in homosexual sex.

Before Jesus, animal sacrifice was how someone would appease the gods. Then, the lamb of Nazareth was crucified, allowing for direct placation of god. Boom. That's why.

The idea is various religious ideas piled on top of each other.

So Adam and Eve bring sin into the world so we are all born sinful (the doctrine of original sin).

Yahweh - the god of the Judean kingdom - said that only bloodshed could repay sin and prescribed a whole ton of sacrifices to account for this. One of the key parts of these rituals was that the animals must be pure (no blemishes, deformities and the like). This was to atone for the sins of the nation and prevent their god judging then (which was common for most people groups of those days). Note that it had nothing to do with "salvation" or an afterlife.

Jesus was immaculately conceived (according to all Christians) which means he was without sin (the Catholics also teach his mother, Mary, was immaculately conceived). So, the idea goes, Jesus was pure.

Jesus was crucified and Yahweh accepted this as the ultimate sacrifice for sins according to Christianity. Somehow this means everyone can be saved, which had nothing to do with the Jewish sacrificial traditions, from hell which wasn't part of the original Yahweh religion anyway.

Its worth noting that the sacrificial guidelines laid out in the Hebrew scriptures; Jesus' crucifiction would not have come close to counting as a proper sacrifice - so the above view makes no sense to the Jews.

RhombusHatesYou:

thaluikhain:
It means if we stop sinning, they died for nothing.

Indeed, so to maximise 'sacrifice value' people should sin at every opportunity.

the US "religious right" suddenly make so much more sense...

Skeleon:
Actually, Realitycrash, Jesus first supposedly went to hell for those three days to suffer for us. Only when his grave was empty and some of his followers met him later on did he actually ascend to heaven. Still, three days in hell for him compared to an eternity for people who don't follow him seems very, very off. But then again, plenty of people don't believe that folks go to hell just for not believing or believing in the wrong gods. It all depends on their interpretation. *shrugs*

the original bible does not evne have a mention of "hell" so he could not have went to hell.

Strazdas, since when does that matter when it comes to such questions?
From what I know, Mary for example wasn't originally considered to have been a virgin, either, but a young woman, and today the virgin birth is one of the cornerstones of a lot of Christian dogmas.
You're acting as if any of this was based on hard facts, when it's all about stories, legends, interpretations, personal beliefs and so on.

Coppernerves:
Sometimes it's changed to "Paid for your sins", this makes slightly more sense, but I really don't see how whipping, salt, a crown of thorns and crucifixion, though pretty nasty, add up to the punishment for all the sin that's been committed so far.

The way I understand it Jesus, through death and love and all that jazz, suffers to wipe clean the slate of human sin. All the sin that had happened up to that point.

Obviously we can still sin, and still be punished for that sin, but Jesus' death makes up for a helluva lot of sin. (Plus he wipes clean our WORST SIN EVER)

Hafrael:

Obviously we can still sin, and still be punished for that sin, but Jesus' death makes up for a helluva lot of sin. (Plus he wipes clean our WORST SIN EVER)

So i get one murder? Sweet. Gotta choose this wisely :P As long as i keep myself to VERY minor sins for the rest of my life im good. Im good.

I totally cant understand how people can be happy with the "Inherit" sin thing. If it doesnt immediately make you doubt thats its true its already patently unfair. Before jesus died EVERYONE went to hell for the original sin? To HELL. The realm of eternal torture porn of the worst kind. Because an ancestor sinned... thats... unfair to say the VERY least. Its possibly one of the most unfair concepts ever. Of all time. And God took 3000 years to forgive for it too o.o 3000 years of worth of tiny babies in hell suffering because of adam and eve... the concept is abhorrent. Of course thats only under this interpretation. If you interpret around that problem power to you. I just cant see how anyone could be happy thinking this happened :S its horrible.

it means you get access to one re spawn.....bad joke?

"died for your sins" well i recall this asking my pastor once at my school it was something like "he has given everyone a choice to go to heaven" to which i replied with "wait? what about the people who died before Jesus did they go to hell?"

then he redirected the question and wouldn't answer the question

BiscuitTrouser:

Hafrael:

Obviously we can still sin, and still be punished for that sin, but Jesus' death makes up for a helluva lot of sin. (Plus he wipes clean our WORST SIN EVER)

So i get one murder? Sweet. Gotta choose this wisely :P As long as i keep myself to VERY minor sins for the rest of my life im good. Im good.

Naw you just don't get punished for sins previous to you.

I totally cant understand how people can be happy with the "Inherit" sin thing. If it doesnt immediately make you doubt thats its true its already patently unfair. Before jesus died EVERYONE went to hell for the original sin? To HELL. The realm of eternal torture porn of the worst kind. Because an ancestor sinned... thats... unfair to say the VERY least. Its possibly one of the most unfair concepts ever. Of all time. And God took 3000 years to forgive for it too o.o 3000 years of worth of tiny babies in hell suffering because of adam and eve... the concept is abhorrent. Of course thats only under this interpretation. If you interpret around that problem power to you. I just cant see how anyone could be happy thinking this happened :S its horrible.

Keep in mind hell is not a concept accepted by all Christians. It is never mentioned in the bible, &e. &e. Note also we do not inherit any sins except the original and even then that depends on your denomination. (A good rule: If they baptise you inherit sin) That was a pretty bad sin beeteedubs. We were screwed for a very long time out of the greatest place ever and eternal life[1] all because a stupid snake piqued the curiosity of our best buddy. Maybe God felt that the thousands of years away from Eden was enough punishment, so he sent Jesus to save our souls. Maybe he just forgot about us like he did to the Jews in Exodus, we really can't know.

[1] HEAVEN

You should definitely watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=By9JJSVzlTw

It is of Christopher Hitchens discussing 'vicarious redemption' - that is, 'died for our sins'.

The complete video is quite excellent, I would highly recommend it to everyone. The closing remarks of Hitchens are particularly remarkable.

Quick Extra Links:

Complete Debate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6K43WSZrmI

Closing Remarks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUSxMCtWLII&feature=related

Hafrael:
Keep in mind hell is not a concept accepted by all Christians. It is never mentioned in the bible, &e. &e. Note also we do not inherit any sins except the original and even then that depends on your denomination. (A good rule: If they baptise you inherit sin)

So if I don't get baptized I don't inherit the original sin? But of course I then would be a heathen and thereby destined for hell.
There's no escape!

Realitycrash:

RhombusHatesYou:

thaluikhain:
It means if we stop sinning, they died for nothing.

Indeed, so to maximise 'sacrifice value' people should sin at every opportunity.

Although... you know, being dead for 3 days doesn't seem like that much of a sacrifice. Sounds more like a long weekend in Launceston.

He did suffer on the cross for an extended period of time, though.
Then again, after that he went to heaven, so a few days suffering on the cross and then an eternity in heaven..Doesn't seem so bad, does it?

An eternity in heaven AS A GOD!!!
It seems like life as a human being was the real punishment for him, doesn't it?
I bet he forgot to clean up his room or wash the dishes and dad got pissed and sent him to Earth :)

Quaxar:

Hafrael:
Keep in mind hell is not a concept accepted by all Christians. It is never mentioned in the bible, &e. &e. Note also we do not inherit any sins except the original and even then that depends on your denomination. (A good rule: If they baptise you inherit sin)

So if I don't get baptized I don't inherit the original sin? But of course I then would be a heathen and thereby destined for hell.
There's no escape!

Naw, naw, you misunderstand. If the religion practices baptism that generally means that they believe humans inherit original sin. Baptism washes away original sin, that's why they do it!

In fact baptism washes away all sin[1] so it was pretty traditional to wait until you were pretty old to get baptised for a really long time. (Many early christians would wait until their death bed to get baptised to be extra-special sure they were going to heaven) Keep in mind though, you can only be baptised once.

[1] Depending on the denomination of course

Hafrael:

Quaxar:

Hafrael:
Keep in mind hell is not a concept accepted by all Christians. It is never mentioned in the bible, &e. &e. Note also we do not inherit any sins except the original and even then that depends on your denomination. (A good rule: If they baptise you inherit sin)

So if I don't get baptized I don't inherit the original sin? But of course I then would be a heathen and thereby destined for hell.
There's no escape!

Naw, naw, you misunderstand. If the religion practices baptism that generally means that they believe humans inherit original sin. Baptism washes away original sin, that's why they do it!

In fact baptism washes away all sin so it was pretty traditional to wait until you were pretty old to get baptised for a really long time. (Many early christians would wait until their death bed to get baptised to be extra-special sure they were going to heaven) Keep in mind though, you can only be baptised once.

Well, that makes more sense at least from a religious point of view... my bad, but it is late here.

This is one of those big theological can of worms that no one thinks about. In the end it all comes down to interpretation really. There are rarely any "wrong" ways unless its contradicted somehow.

Skeleon:
Strazdas, since when does that matter when it comes to such questions?
From what I know, Mary for example wasn't originally considered to have been a virgin, either, but a young woman, and today the virgin birth is one of the cornerstones of a lot of Christian dogmas.
You're acting as if any of this was based on hard facts, when it's all about stories, legends, interpretations, personal beliefs and so on.

well, when you put it this way, why do people believe it is based on facts then?

Strazdas:
well, when you put it this way, why do people believe it is based on facts then?

Usually because they were raised to believe it or something very close to it, the comparatively very low number of converts notwithstanding. Plus, I'd dispute the premise of your question. If you ask enough, dig deeply enough, most people will concede that it comes down to faith, not facts. Exceptions apply again, of course, such as Literalists.

Maybe its the apple. Maybe its how we sold stuff vs give stuff. Maybe it was to give us more freedom which would mean sins. I wouldn't know.

It is very much about the tradition of animal sacrifice as Skeleon wrote. More specifically the Jewish practices of animal sacrifice, korban and "scapegoating". Korban is a practice of offering an animal in place of yourself for punishment to god. Scapegoating actually started as a tradition of driving a human outcast out of the community after a major tragedy or just at the end of the calendar year. The idea was that the outcast would take any evil in the community out of the community and when the outcast died the evil would die with him in the wilderness. Jesus is essentially korban being taken to the furthest degree. Because Jesus is supposedly god's son his sacrifice is worth more and is ample enough to atone for all the sins of humankind, ever.

Christianity is not that different from any other religion that glorifies human sacrifice. The Aztecs, for example, performed hundreds per year to sate the wraith of their gods, Christianity culminates in the reveling of a single human sacrifice to sate the wraith of it's god. It's just a question of quantity or quality really.

I think people are forgetting also the garden scene where he took on the sins of the world, and the stress of which caused him to bleed from every pour. This isn't impossible, the bleeding part, as if you go though a traumatic enough of a situation you'll do that, but just bleeding from one or two pours is enough put someone in shock and kill them. Most of the suffering was there, the than you have the scourging which historicly would have been with this lovely piece of work

http://naturesdesignsonline.com/Cat-of-nine-tails.htm

Than you go on the Cross.

Also it's not a sin as much as you can so you can make his death worth it. There are plenty of children adn people with metal retardation to the point where they are a child despite being in their 60's that really don't have a concept of right or wrong, so they get exempt.

The rest of us, no matter how good we were, are bound to screw up and so it's those screw ups that he gets. It's not a sin till you drop so his death is worth it, it's because you do it that he chose to suffer your sinse for you.

Basically it's a Karma Houdini on out part.

Alright let me explain. (I am a Christian you know)

In order to enter heaven, one must be sinless. In the old testament they did this by sacrificing lambs which were thought to be pure and innocent creatures. This sacrifice covered the the price of sin (which is death).

So, Jesus was beat, whipped, maimed, and taunted. by his Roman captors. His wounds were so bad that one could see his exposed organs. Thus, after seeing that he was tortured enough, they gave him a solid wooden cross (which weights A LOT) and marched him up to Calvary. When there they pierced his ankles and wrists/hands with 9 inch nails (I think 9 inch) and hung him on the cross to crucify him. (As all of us know crucifixion was an especially painful death). Also, while on the cross, A Roman stabbed Jesus with a spear, this lead to water pouring out of Christ. And after hours on the cross Jesus cried out "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" and "It is finished." (There are seven phrases that Jesus speaks on the cross) and dies.

Sounds like he suffered a lot to me. Remember the sacrifices from the Old testament? Jesus is our sacrifice, he died on the cross so we wouldn't have to. Because he was pure and sinless he covers all of our sins to allow us to enter heaven beside him. And because he rose again on the Third day, (Easter) he proved that he could conquer death. Defeating it for eternity.

This is also why Christianity isn't a religion, its a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. He is the only way to enter heaven, because he is sinless, he washed away all of our stains with his death. That's why one doesn't have to pray 3 times a day facing Mecca or go around knocking on peoples doors every Saturday. If you know Jesus on an intimate level and he knows you, that's all one needs to enter Heaven. It's a free gift from God that all of us have if we choose to accept it.

So there you go.

Fisher321:

This is also why Christianity isn't a religion, its a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Im confused as to why any sacrifice was necessary at all. Jesus always taught to turn the other cheek and forgive without extracting "sacrifice" or "Revenge" or "Recompense" or anything. Just straight out offer forgiveness, no strings attached.

Im not trying to mock, im just trying to understand. Please be patient with me if im saying stupid things :3

From my understanding we committed the original sin and then everyone always had it (which is a little unfair, i mean sins of the father shouldnt be passed to the son) and then god took 2000 years to send jesus to clean up the sin. Until then we had to keep killing things to "Appease" him. This all seems very... negative. A lot like Xclotl the bloody handed lord of murder of the myans who demanded souls in return for safety. Why did it take so long to send jesus? Why was the murdering of animals and then jesus necessary at all? If we punished a person for what their ancestor did youd consider that immoral so why can God do it? Why couldnt he just forgive everyone without any strings or cryptic metaphor. Id be a lot more willing to accept the idea of the christian god if the story went "And then god said, its alright, you were never destined to be thought slaves in the garden of Eden, you never advanced here. You were basically my pets. Now you can build and create and live with eachother and decide your own destinies. You made a mistake and its fine. Go forth with your imperfection and use it as you will, hopefully for the better. I forgive you." It just seems a lot nicer than the story as it is now.

Why did anyone need to suffer. Adam and eve made a mistake, they were personally punished and later died end of the story right? Why did the descendants need to get involved at all? Why did we need jesus at all? It all seems so unnecessary. If Jesus came around RIGHT after the original sin it would make more sense too. Why such a long wait for salvation not bought in blood and souls. Im not trying to attack. I just wanna know how you get around these problems that for me are deal breakers. It interests me how it can be interpreted to make these problems not so large.

Also Christianity is a religion the same way my dog is a pet. Sure for ME hes a member of the family and not a pet. But the word for him is pet. To the other 7 billion people he is a pet. In the dictionary he is a pet. If i try and deny the fact he is the exact definition of a pet im just being silly :P It can be both ya know. A relationship AND a religion. It isnt a bad word.

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