I need to dispense some bile...

Did you know that all christian related persecution is over? I'm going to tell my boyfriend right now that we can get married.

*Sigh* I don't think individual Christians are bad(EDIT: or even guilty of the thing I am bitching about in this post. This is a small subset of loud morons.) I just wish they would behave in a more understanding way when someone pretends Christmas doesn't exist. Like maybe not everyone wants to deal with their entitled bullshit once a year, every year. I can fuck quietly, can't you be greedy quietly as well?

Um... what exactly do you mean? 'Cause not every Christian believes in the so called "War on Christmas". In fact, the vast majority don't. We're normal people too.

I know, but I had a friend post something about it on her Facebook. It pissed me off, so i came here to vomit my bile. I think I put a clause on this saying that I don't think all Christians are bad. I guess I should have expanded it to mean "Guilty of this particular thing."

Matthewmagic:
I know, but I had a friend post something about it on her Facebook. It pissed me off, so i came here to vomit my bile. I think I put a clause on this saying that I don't think all Christians are bad. I guess I should have expanded it to mean "Guilty of this particular thing."

Yeah, the worst of a group are always the loudest and most annoying, eh? Well, it could be worse than believing a conspiracy is trying to destroy Christmas, so theres a little comfort.

It's just that you ended up wording it wierd, but discrepancy cleared.

Sorry about that *Sweat* :D.

Matthewmagic:
Sorry about that *Sweat* :D.

Forgiven. :D

All is well.

Matthewmagic:
Did you know that all christian related persecution is over? I'm going to tell my boyfriend right now that we can get married.

*Sigh* I don't think individual Christians are bad I just wish they would behave in a more understanding way when someone pretends Christmas doesn't exist. Like maybe not everyone wants to deal with their entitled bullshit once a year, every year. I can fuck quietly, can't you be greedy quietly as well?

I generally agree, and adore that last sentence. :)

Not every single, solitary Christian (if this does not describe you, take a bow to yourself, know that I'm not talking about you, and sit on your co-religionists when you get the chance, please), but IME the majority seem to be incredibly lacking in self-awareness. Here's kind of a sample of what I mean:

If you are Christian in a Christian-founded or Christian-majority country, I expect you to know that you have privilege, that the entire societal system you live in is organized for your benefit and your ease. I expect you to know that a sizeable portion of your co-religionists are actively persecuting, oppressing, and discriminating against non-Christians in all sorts of small and large ways. I expect you to know that a lot of people who have been on the receiving end of that treatment are going to be a bit leery of you, and I expect you to be understanding about that and not lash out in defensiveness; I expect you, as someone who believes in doing good, to be able to walk far enough in other people's moccasins that you can understand it even if it makes you wince to hear it. I expect you to know that your history is bloody, and I expect you to know at least a little of the ways in which that history is still continuing today. I expect you to know at least something about your own religion and denomination's history; I expect you to have at least somewhat thought through why you've chosen to take the doctrinal stands (vis-a-vis other forms of Christianity) that you have. I expect you to know that your worldview is not the only one in the world, and that others may have a wildly different worldview from your own-- you may disagree with their worldview, but you should not express surprise at its mere existence. I expect you to know at least a little about Judaism-- you took their book, you should know at least a tiny bit about what they think about it.

I don't think that's asking a lot, honestly, but I'm so damn frequently disappointed on every single point. I'm so tired of the no-true-Scotsman and "a few isolated kooks" defenses; own your assholes, please, the rest of us have to. At least, at very least, know how many of them there are out there and how much damage they're doing. I'm not asking every Christian to be an activist, just enough self-awareness to know who they are, what they think, how they came to be that way, and what the broader picture looks like. Hell, I'd even settle for the first sentence alone, because the rest flows from it.

As a christian I'm just disgusted by the degree to which Christmas has been marketed. It's not about money or corporations, it's about the birth of Jesus. All this advertising has destroyed the meaning of the holiday.

As for people saying happy holidays I'm smart enough to recognize that there's also the holiday half of my family celebrates because they're jewish that I can never EVER spell correctly. Seriously I was wearing a Santa hat and a star of david necklace today.

Polarity27:
Not every single, solitary Christian (if this does not describe you, take a bow to yourself, know that I'm not talking about you, and sit on your co-religionists when you get the chance, please), but IME the majority seem to be incredibly lacking in self-awareness. Here's kind of a sample of what I mean:

If you are Christian in a Christian-founded or Christian-majority country, I expect you to know that you have privilege, that the entire societal system you live in is organized for your benefit and your ease. I expect you to know that a sizeable portion of your co-religionists are actively persecuting, oppressing, and discriminating against non-Christians in all sorts of small and large ways. I expect you to know that a lot of people who have been on the receiving end of that treatment are going to be a bit leery of you, and I expect you to be understanding about that and not lash out in defensiveness; I expect you, as someone who believes in doing good, to be able to walk far enough in other people's moccasins that you can understand it even if it makes you wince to hear it. I expect you to know that your history is bloody, and I expect you to know at least a little of the ways in which that history is still continuing today. I expect you to know at least something about your own religion and denomination's history; I expect you to have at least somewhat thought through why you've chosen to take the doctrinal stands (vis-a-vis other forms of Christianity) that you have. I expect you to know that your worldview is not the only one in the world, and that others may have a wildly different worldview from your own-- you may disagree with their worldview, but you should not express surprise at its mere existence. I expect you to know at least a little about Judaism-- you took their book, you should know at least a tiny bit about what they think about it.

I don't think that's asking a lot, honestly, but I'm so damn frequently disappointed on every single point. I'm so tired of the no-true-Scotsman and "a few isolated kooks" defenses; own your assholes, please, the rest of us have to. At least, at very least, know how many of them there are out there and how much damage they're doing. I'm not asking every Christian to be an activist, just enough self-awareness to know who they are, what they think, how they came to be that way, and what the broader picture looks like. Hell, I'd even settle for the first sentence alone, because the rest flows from it.

Seconded.

Certainly not every Christian is making problems, but if they are in the same denomination as those that are, they are adding to the support unless they actively distance themselves.

To an extent other denominations as well, they don't seem to be as interested in outdoing each other on things like that anymore. Shame, as it seems that the whole point of splitting churches is to distance yourself from people doing it wrong.

The OP was not very clear, are we talking about the "war on Christmas" thing here?

I would say that the number of nutty atheists trying to destroy Christmas is equal to the number of nutty Christians trying to defend it from a "major war". Its a minor issue fought between minorities on two sides. The only winners in this "war" are the people who don't play.

But Christmas does exist. You'd have to either be living under a rock since birth, or a liar, to say that Christmas doesn't exist. Now, just because it exists doesn't mean that everyone has to like it, or celebrate it. Of most people will celebrate it, and will wish you a merry Christmas, but why exactly does that bother people? I've never understood why people get so upset over it.

If people want to celebrate it, throw huge sales, give each other gifts, and blow it up to some massive event, then why does that bother you?

TKretts3:
But Christmas does exist. You'd have to either be living under a rock since birth, or a liar, to say that Christmas doesn't exist. Now, just because it exists doesn't mean that everyone has to like it, or celebrate it. Of most people will celebrate it, and will wish you a merry Christmas, but why exactly does that bother people? I've never understood why people get so upset over it.

If people want to celebrate it, throw huge sales, give each other gifts, and blow it up to some massive event, then why does that bother you?

Maybe because said massive event is constantly in our face for a good fifth of the year, and quite often interferes with anything and everything we wish to get done during said time period?

My family celebrates Christmas as well, and I love that aspect of the season, getting together for a celebration of life. But that's just one day, two if you count the preparation beforehand (I generally do).

TKretts3:
But Christmas does exist. You'd have to either be living under a rock since birth, or a liar, to say that Christmas doesn't exist. Now, just because it exists doesn't mean that everyone has to like it, or celebrate it. Of most people will celebrate it, and will wish you a merry Christmas, but why exactly does that bother people? I've never understood why people get so upset over it.

If people want to celebrate it, throw huge sales, give each other gifts, and blow it up to some massive event, then why does that bother you?

This is confusing to me, Quanza exists and I know nothing about it. I once heard people in Britain have some tradition of knocking on rocks to find Merlin (I may have that very wrong). My point is, you don't have to acknowledge it.

thaluikhain:

Certainly not every Christian is making problems, but if they are in the same denomination as those that are, they are adding to the support unless they actively distance themselves.

Nah, that is nonsense, and if Katatori-Kun was still on here he would say this is crap as well. Hell, we have done this dance before[1] and it was wrong then and its wrong now. I don't support Irish Catholics beating the hell out of Scottish Protestant Rangers fans just because I don't actively go out of my way to distance myself from Celtic fans, and to suggest otherwise is applying guilt by association.

[1] by this I mean where a person says that Christians/Muslims must distance themselves from the wackos because otherwise they are supporting them

Matthewmagic:
I just wish they would behave in a more understanding way when someone pretends Christmas doesn't exist. Like maybe not everyone wants to deal with their entitled bullshit once a year, every year. I can fuck quietly, can't you be greedy quietly as well?

Why is it such a big deal to acknowledge that Christmas is a real thing that happens in December? You don't magically become a devout Christian by acknowledging that Christmas happens.

Helmholtz Watson:

Matthewmagic:
I just wish they would behave in a more understanding way when someone pretends Christmas doesn't exist. Like maybe not everyone wants to deal with their entitled bullshit once a year, every year. I can fuck quietly, can't you be greedy quietly as well?

Why is it such a big deal to acknowledge that Christmas is a real thing that happens in December? You don't magically become a devout Christian by acknowledging that Christmas happens.

I guess it is worth Highlighting that I do celebrate Christmas with my roman catholic family. The big deal is that (some) Christians act offended when stores say happy holidays, like everyone should love Christmas. In reality a lot of people have good reason to not like it, it has a lot to do with that very vocal group of Christians. The Christmas season would be a lot more tolerable if they didn't act like they are entitled to having Christmas music play in every store.

Matthewmagic:

Helmholtz Watson:

Matthewmagic:
I just wish they would behave in a more understanding way when someone pretends Christmas doesn't exist. Like maybe not everyone wants to deal with their entitled bullshit once a year, every year. I can fuck quietly, can't you be greedy quietly as well?

Why is it such a big deal to acknowledge that Christmas is a real thing that happens in December? You don't magically become a devout Christian by acknowledging that Christmas happens.

I guess it is worth Highlighting that I do celebrate Christmas with my roman catholic family. The big deal is that (some) Christians act offended when stores say happy holidays, like everyone should love Christmas. In reality a lot of people have good reason to not like it, it has a lot to do with that very vocal group of Christians. The Christmas season would be a lot more tolerable if they didn't act like they are entitled to having Christmas music play in every store.

Fair enough, I get what you mean. Personally I find is weird that Thanksgiving has become Christmas part one for some stores and that they start selling Christmas lights before Thanksgiving is even over.

thaluikhain:

Seconded.

Certainly not every Christian is making problems, but if they are in the same denomination as those that are, they are adding to the support unless they actively distance themselves.

To an extent other denominations as well, they don't seem to be as interested in outdoing each other on things like that anymore. Shame, as it seems that the whole point of splitting churches is to distance yourself from people doing it wrong.

Well, I'm not sure denomination matters that much, there's still the religion in common...

No, to address what Heimholz is talking about (and I'm almost grateful I *don't* have to go another six rounds with Katatori about this), I think the minimum I want from Christians-- of ANY denomination-- is to be aware of what's going on out there. Just *know*. Even if it's not your denomination, know what's being done in your name and don't try to diminish it by saying they're not "real" Christians or someone else's problem. I see a world of difference between this:

"I'm so sorry this is happening. It's wrong and I don't support it, these people do not speak for me."

and this:

"Oh come on, we're not all bad. People who act like that aren't real Christians anyhow, only a few extremist nutjobs think that way."

It's not about going out of your way to distance yourself-- and as much as I do believe there's something of a moral imperative to try to work against people in your group doing harm, I know it can sometimes be very complex (as an American, I acknowledge the damage done by our war-making in the Middle East, but at the same time, some of the choices I've made in voting have put my interests above those being damaged by that)-- it's about being self-aware enough to understand where the animus against your group is coming from and not try to make it all about you, personally.

TKretts3:
But Christmas does exist. You'd have to either be living under a rock since birth, or a liar, to say that Christmas doesn't exist. Now, just because it exists doesn't mean that everyone has to like it, or celebrate it. Of most people will celebrate it, and will wish you a merry Christmas, but why exactly does that bother people? I've never understood why people get so upset over it.

If people want to celebrate it, throw huge sales, give each other gifts, and blow it up to some massive event, then why does that bother you?

Because it's a month+ long reminder of your second-class status in society, for one. See "everything about the society you live in is ordered to your benefit or toward your ease". Everything in this time of year is ordered around Christmas. When you do and don't have to work. How you are and are not supposed to act ("oh come on, where's your Christmas spirit?" Dude, I want to ask people who disapprove of screwing in the bushes where their Beltane spirit is-- no, not really, but you take my point). What you're supposed to buy, even in the workplace. Even what is and isn't on television. One religion, and one religion only, gets this treatment, the rest of us have to bend to accommodate it. (And yet people have been fired or otherwise harmed at work for asking for *their* holiday off.)

I don't begrudge anyone their bring-light-to-the-dark-time-of-the-year holiday, but I can't say that the constant reminder of Christian triumphalism (and the concomitant reminder of how few rights everyone else has in comparison) doesn't get a little old. I don't care that people want to celebrate, I care that I have to be involved in it whether I want to be or not. I care that everyone else's celebrations don't get the same treatment-- actually, never mind the *same* treatment, I'd just like to see them acknowledged at all. (A couple of towns a couple of years ago opened their "decorate the town government buildings" to all religions. The Pagan decorations were vandalized. Merry Christmas!)

Mostly, though, I care that this is all completely opaque to most Christians. At best, you're a scrooge if you want to opt out of Christmas, at worst, you're part of a "war on Christmas". I just wish they'd take a turn around the block in someone else's shoes for once and see what this all looks like from the perspective of someone who isn't Christian. I don't devote that much thought to the "war on Christmas" thing, I do, though, see it as another example of that self-awareness problem.

Polarity27:

it's about being self-aware enough to understand where the animus against your group is coming from and not try to make it all about you, personally.

It becomes personal when you demand that a person must tell you that they don't believe in the same things as some radicals do and that if they don't, its ok for you to make a quick ignorant assumption about them without trying to get to know them first. If you want to know if a person believes in the idea of "War on Christmas", ask them, but don't automatically assume they feel that way just because they are Christian.

Yep, because Christmas is all about Christ's birth nowadays. That is why the symbol of the holiday is a big fat white man who gives out presents, lives at the north pole, and rides around on a magical sleight towed by flying reindeer and sneaks down chimenys. Totally like in the bible (2nd Hesitations, I believe it was). Because culture never changes and the meaning behind holidays and traditions totally stays the same forever and ever. -_-

Polarity27:

thaluikhain:

Seconded.

Certainly not every Christian is making problems, but if they are in the same denomination as those that are, they are adding to the support unless they actively distance themselves.

To an extent other denominations as well, they don't seem to be as interested in outdoing each other on things like that anymore. Shame, as it seems that the whole point of splitting churches is to distance yourself from people doing it wrong.

Well, I'm not sure denomination matters that much, there's still the religion in common...

No, to address what Heimholz is talking about (and I'm almost grateful I *don't* have to go another six rounds with Katatori about this), I think the minimum I want from Christians-- of ANY denomination-- is to be aware of what's going on out there. Just *know*. Even if it's not your denomination, know what's being done in your name and don't try to diminish it by saying they're not "real" Christians or someone else's problem. I see a world of difference between this:

"I'm so sorry this is happening. It's wrong and I don't support it, these people do not speak for me."

and this:

"Oh come on, we're not all bad. People who act like that aren't real Christians anyhow, only a few extremist nutjobs think that way."

It's not about going out of your way to distance yourself-- and as much as I do believe there's something of a moral imperative to try to work against people in your group doing harm, I know it can sometimes be very complex (as an American, I acknowledge the damage done by our war-making in the Middle East, but at the same time, some of the choices I've made in voting have put my interests above those being damaged by that)-- it's about being self-aware enough to understand where the animus against your group is coming from and not try to make it all about you, personally.

I would have said that recognising a problematic element in your own group, and stating your lack of support would be distancing yourself from them, but fair enough.

Xan Krieger:
As a christian I'm just disgusted by the degree to which Christmas has been marketed. It's not about money or corporations, it's about the birth of Jesus. All this advertising has destroyed the meaning of the holiday.

As for people saying happy holidays I'm smart enough to recognize that there's also the holiday half of my family celebrates because they're jewish that I can never EVER spell correctly. Seriously I was wearing a Santa hat and a star of david necklace today.

Actually, no. It was stolen from us by Christians and it was about there being brighter days ahead... But that was a heathenish holiday (Because no-one could appreciate a day about brighter times ahead without it being tied to Christianity) and by no-one I mean the church.

Frankly I see the whole Santa-claus and giving out presents taking focus as a good thing, its taking the focus away from something that was never supposed to be there in the first place, Jesus's brith isn't even near the 24th anyway. The pope were just a greedy fcker who couldn't accept someone having a good holiday that wasn't Christian.

The less about Jesus we make Christmas, the less chance there is of everyone else disliking it when you miss them to have a merry one. Lets make it about the end of the darkest day of the year again. Or since that's unlikely, let the corporations have their way and let it become entirely about presents and being with your family. Something everyone can appreciate.

thaluikhain:
[quote="Polarity27" post="528.395300.16051379"]

I would have said that recognising a problematic element in your own group, and stating your lack of support would be distancing yourself from them, but fair enough.

Yeah, we're more or less saying the same thing. I think I was mainly trying to head Heimholz off at the pass with the guilt-by-association thing.

Matthewmagic:
Did you know that all christian related persecution is over?

Don't you know that Christians are the most persecuted people on the planet?

Matthewmagic:
I just wish they would behave in a more understanding way when someone pretends Christmas doesn't exist.

People not wanting to celebrate Christmas are persecuting Christians.

Matthewmagic:
Like maybe not everyone wants to deal with their entitled bullshit once a year, every year. I can fuck quietly, can't you be greedy quietly as well?

What you're doing is against the word of God. The fact that you're even allowed to do it is, interesting sidebar, a form of persecution against Christians. Everyone should have to deal with the "entitled bullshit", as you call it, because every other persecuted group gets to make a big stink about it but when Christians complain everyone just persecutes them harder. You wouldn't dare say this about Muslims because you'd be scared of being blown up!

/RaptureReady

OT: I don't really get the "War on Christmas!" thing. Sure, Christmas has virtually nothing to do with religion anymore, but so what? It's not like it's a particularly holy day anyway. Apart from (allegedly) not actually being Jesus' birthday, his birthday is a comparatively minor event. Conception? Miraculous, and therefore significant. Death? Major event, worthy of commemoration. Resurrection? That's the big one, should really be the Christian festival. Birth? Bitch, please, we've all done that. Nothing miraculous about falling out of some chick's vagina.

Helmholtz Watson:
Fair enough, I get what you mean. Personally I find is weird that Thanksgiving has become Christmas part one for some stores and that they start selling Christmas lights before Thanksgiving is even over.

Have you ever noticed that the complaining about how Christmas starts earlier every year, starts earlier every year? ;-)

Xan Krieger:
As a christian I'm just disgusted by the degree to which Christmas has been marketed. It's not about money or corporations, it's about the birth of Jesus. All this advertising has destroyed the meaning of the holiday.

How so? If religion is personal and your relationship with Christ is between him and you, how exactly has advertising changed that? Why should other people have to celebrate your personal beliefs rather than having a day when they enjoy themselves? That seems very arrogant. Christmas can mean one thing to you, and another thing to somebody else, so why would you try to make them recognise your feelings as superior?

Xan Krieger:
As a christian I'm just disgusted by the degree to which Christmas has been marketed. It's not about money or corporations, it's about the birth of Jesus. All this advertising has destroyed the meaning of the holiday...

Yes, those damn Romans ruined Christmas with their pagan bs!

There are groups out their dedicated to finding and suing the pants off people they feel are thrusting their religion onto them.

I wish I was kidding.

See, the thing is, schools change it to 'happy holidays' and 'must remove all mention of Christmas' largely due to litigation; they're scared of getting their asses sued under the first amendment. Rightfully so, really, because again, their are groups who will actively seek out these institutions and sue them. Even if the law suits hold no water, the simple cost of determining that isn't something a school district can really handle most of the time.

And that is bullshit, up to a point. A school can't even run a multicultural holiday dealy without serious concern.

Nativity scenes in public land? Well everything done on public land must be government sponsored, so nope, banned. It's not like public space was meant to be used by the public for whatever as long as it wasn't breaking any laws. You can have a occupy wall street protest there (Assuming they keep clean and don't become vagrants under the law) but if you put up a nativity scene you are making the government enforce your religion and the lawyers will be bought out.

Also, just because someone is a victim doesn't mean they can't be an asshole. You know who has a history of being oppressed but still have historically pulled off totally assholish things? Every people ever on the face of the planet earth. Every last self-identified group on the planet.

Me? I tend to wish people happy holidays if I don't know their beliefs. But if I know someones beliefs I'll wish them their specific holiday of choices good tidings.

Which reminds me: Merry Christmas, happy holidays, and here's looking forward to the new year.

Bentusi16:
Me? I tend to wish people happy holidays if I don't know their beliefs. But if I know someones beliefs I'll wish them their specific holiday of choices good tidings.

Here in England, we don't really have the whole "War on Christmas!" except in the very grubbiest of the right-wing papers, so I tend to say Merry Christmas regardless, even to people I know aren't Christian, because it's Christmas. Nobody has ever complained before. Then again, maybe it's just that most people I know - even the deeply Christian ones - are smart enough to keep the religion part personal and enjoy the secular aspects of modern Christmas socially.

Bentusi16:
Which reminds me: Merry Christmas, happy holidays, and here's looking forward to the new year.

Merry Christmas to you too!

True fact to remind "War on Christmas" Christians;

The only time Christmas was ever banned in the continental US, it was done at the hands of PROTESTANT CHRISTIANS.

Thank you, good night!

Xan Krieger:
As a christian I'm just disgusted by the degree to which Christmas has been marketed. It's not about money or corporations, it's about the birth of Jesus. All this advertising has destroyed the meaning of the holiday.

As for people saying happy holidays I'm smart enough to recognize that there's also the holiday half of my family celebrates because they're Jewish that I can never EVER spell correctly. Seriously I was wearing a Santa hat and a star of David necklace today.

I want to add that I'm tired of atheists or secularists or whatever being blamed for this decline too, or blaming us for a 'War' on Christmas values and shit. Christians drive that change towards making their holiday nothing but a capitalist wasteland, then blame us for it by buying shit. We don't want 4+ fucking months of Shopapaluza either. If every Christian stopped buying shit for Christmas, I guarantee you that stores, especially in the United States would stop giving a shit about it overnight. Then they talk shit about how they should 'retake' their holiday from 'us', and bring it back to the roots, even though the roots was drunken orgies because ancient man got bored during the winter. There's no way that atheists could drive enough demand economically to make your holiday the bullshit consumerist fest it is.

I used to get this shit all the time working retail, some dumb fuck coming in on Thanksgiving being like "You should be ashamed of yourself, working here when you should be with you family!" loading up the fucking conveyor belt with 300 dollars worth of fucking food to stuff their fat greasy faces with on one day. Like I'd love to, but my boss makes my hours, not me, and he makes them based on your dumb ass shopping because you couldn't plan the fuck ahead for something that comes on the same time every goddamn year.

Worse is when it's some 900 pound person in one of those go-karts driving around the store doing it. Now I'm not going to bash people for needing mobility, and I'm not even going to shame them for being fat. You fucked up your life, maybe, but whatever. The damage is done and it's difficult as shit to fix it now. Shaming you don't do shit to fix it. But it's your religion that teaches gluttony's a sin, not mine. Don't yell at me about how much weight I'm 'forcing' you to put on because of holidays that I don't even get to celebrate because I got to sit here and wait on you hand and foot because you can't shop on a Wednesday.

If you want there to be no shopping on a holiday, stop buying shit.

 

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