Why don't we let teachers have guns?

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I just glanced at an article (though I can't find it now) that said teachers in Thailand and some other country carry guns. It always seems like mass shootings happen in gun free zones, so it makes sense to me.

Of course we would need to train them which makes me think we would get the added bonus of sorting out the irresponsible teachers from the ones who are serious. As for kids getting their hands on the guns, just put them in a safe under the teacher's desk and have the teacher carry the key at all times.

EDIT- If you don't think it would be wise to have all teachers be trained to use a firearm, do you think it would be alright to allow those who are already lawful owners to take theirs into school?

To me it seems like a more reasonable preventative measure than just getting rid of all guns.

Because kids can be really fucking annoying sometimes.

Believe me, you could have the gun locked in the most secure vault in the world, eventually a kid is going to get it. Since the best security you can have is a key/safe because of the speed of which you might need to get it, it's going to be a very high possibility that someone can still get it. You would also risk that any of the teachers snapping and shooting kids.

charge52:
Believe me, you could have the gun locked in the most secure vault in the world, eventually a kid is going to get it. Since the best security you can have is a key/safe because of the speed of which you might need to get it, it's going to be a very high possibility that someone can still get it. You would also risk that any of the teachers snapping and shooting kids.

If a teacher was going to snap, he could just go home and get his own gun. I don't think there was ever a case of a teacher shooting up a school. Also if a kid somehow does get the gun who's saying he's going to shoot someone, he'll probably just be curious. Again, if a kid wants to shoot up a school he can just go home and get his own. With the teachers having guns, we know at least a crazy shooter will be out numbered by sane people.

Also, I agree it will probably take too long to get a gun out of a safe to stop anyone from getting shot, but at least the shooter won't be able to go classroom to classroom.

Because the fix for gun violence is...more guns?

First of all, do we really need 3 gun topics on the first page?

Teachers in certain areas of Thailand and Israel are encouraged to have guns. Teachers and students in a few states in the US (Utah, Washington, some colleges in Virginia and Colorado) and the Czech Republic can have firearms in college classrooms.

It also makes sense to me. If we allow people to carry all over our country then it is only logical that we allow them to carry in the place they are in 40 hours a week.

Because it is a fact that 85% of all human beings -likely more in the case of teachers- cannot kill another human being, even in defense of their own life. Read "On Killing" by Lt Col Dave Grossman for more info. So, if someone came in wanting to shoot up the school, the teacher would likely not even raise the weapon, let alone fire it.

Hammartroll:

charge52:
Believe me, you could have the gun locked in the most secure vault in the world, eventually a kid is going to get it. Since the best security you can have is a key/safe because of the speed of which you might need to get it, it's going to be a very high possibility that someone can still get it. You would also risk that any of the teachers snapping and shooting kids.

If a teacher was going to snap, he could just go home and get his own gun. I don't think there was ever a case of a teacher shooting up a school. Also if a kid somehow does get the gun who's saying he's going to shoot someone, he'll probably just be curious. Again, if a kid wants to shoot up a school he can just go home and get his own. With the teachers having guns, we know at least a crazy shooter will be out numbered by sane people.

Also, I agree it will probably take too long to get a gun out of a safe to stop anyone from getting shot, but at least the shooter won't be able to go classroom to classroom.

You assume that when I say a kid could get the gun I mean get it to kill someone. While that is a possibility(you can't say it won't happen on the basis that they could get a gun elsewhere), I mean more that they would get it because they think it is cool, and if bullets are near, they will probably load it and play with it. This could end up in them killing themselves or their friend by accident. Saying a teacher could go home and get a gun does not at all make the potential of him using the gun impossible.

Ryan Hughes:
Because it is a fact that 85% of all human beings -likely more in the case of teachers- cannot kill another human being, even in defense of their own life. Read "On Killing" by Lt Col Dave Grossman for more info. So, if someone came in wanting to shoot up the school, the teacher would likely not even raise the weapon, let alone fire it.

And those people are not going to carry a gun. I do not think the OP asked why we do not REQUIRE teachers to carry a gun but instead why don't we LET them carry a gun.

manic_depressive13:
Because kids can be really fucking annoying sometimes.

but it would also be a sobering thought to the students

that a teacher will always have a gun under his desk...

farson135:

Ryan Hughes:
Because it is a fact that 85% of all human beings -likely more in the case of teachers- cannot kill another human being, even in defense of their own life. Read "On Killing" by Lt Col Dave Grossman for more info. So, if someone came in wanting to shoot up the school, the teacher would likely not even raise the weapon, let alone fire it.

And those people are not going to carry a gun. I do not think the OP asked why we do not REQUIRE teachers to carry a gun but instead why don't we LET them carry a gun.

actually I was thinking that we require them to because it would be a for sure thing that anyone thinking of shooting up a school would have an army of teachers to fight against, it would be a deterrent.

but if what Ryan Hughes says is true then maybe it would be cost effective to only allow teachers to have guns, so only the ones willing to use it would carry and the government wouldn't have to issue each teacher a gun. Seems like a happy medium and would in any case be better than what we have.

Because reality isnt a movie? Teachers are paid to educate students, not serve as armed warriors. Most teachers swing liberal, so I doubt you could fill a school with guns very effectively, I would have just laughed if my principal gave me a glock on my first day.

Ryan Hughes:
Because it is a fact that 85% of all human beings -likely more in the case of teachers- cannot kill another human being, even in defense of their own life. Read "On Killing" by Lt Col Dave Grossman for more info. So, if someone came in wanting to shoot up the school, the teacher would likely not even raise the weapon, let alone fire it.

That's pretty interesting. Since I'm probably not going to get a chance to read the book, what makes you say that there would be so few teachers willing to kill someone?

Hammartroll:
I just glanced at an article (though I can't find it now) that said teachers in Thailand and some other country carry guns. It always seems like mass shootings happen in gun free zones, so it makes sense to me.

Of course we would need to train them which makes me think we would get the added bonus of sorting out the irresponsible teachers from the ones who are serious. As for kids getting their hands on the guns, just put them in a safe under the teacher's desk and have the teacher carry the key at all times.

To me it seems like a more reasonable preventative measure than just getting rid of all guns.

Young Kids: They want to play with the Teachers Gun, so they go into the teachers Drawer/Storage Locker (Because a Safe in every room would be a major strain on the school's Budget) and "Play" with it.
Don't say they the Teacher will lock it all the time, every time, because accidents do happen what with Teacher Work Loads and class sizes.

Teenagers: They want a gun for a number of reasons, so busting into the Teacher's Stash provides a reasonable easy (Compared to other methods like buying and Stealing from other places) means to acquire a gun.
Once again, Locks are a good idea if you use them, but accidents do happen.
And if the school has metalwork classes, then the tools are there to crack it, All it takes is a google search to figure out how to open it, They are a lot more resourceful then they seem.

Criminals/Gangs: Schools are easy to enter with almost Zero People at night, A rock though a window and your in.
They go from room to room, finding a safe or locker, crack it, boom, they have a gun, adding the massive number of guns on the streets.

And so on, Sure, everything here can be fixed by added security measures and the such, but at that point, the whole idea would be causing more problems then it would be solving.
School shootings are rare for the most part, but this will just make these kind of attacks far easier.
I might sound paranoid, but everything here has a chance of happening and that chance speaks volumes against this rather moronic policy.

manic_depressive13:
That's pretty interesting. Since I'm probably not going to get a chance to read the book, what makes you say that there would be so few teachers willing to kill someone?

To put it as succintly as I can: After WWII the US Army did a field study and found that only about 15% of all soldiers on all sides of the battle fired their rifles at the enemy. The reason for this, as Lt. Col. Grossman states, is an innate resistence to killing that most humans possess. This resistance can be overcome through Operant Conditioning or other psychological conditioning, as the US Military proved with 50% fire rates in Korea and 90% fire rates in Vietnam, after they had made psychological conditioning part of the regiment. Though, this leads to the suppression of the "no-kill" instinct and can lead to higher incidences of PTSD later, as all things that are repressed come back eventually.

Assuming that we do not put teachers through Operant Conditioning, they will likely be unable to fire. It is interesting to note that the human brain will naturally shut down bladder and bowel control before it shuts down this resistence. Though, there is one major exception to this: when a family member or loved one is in danger, the brain bypasses all resistance to killing. If the teacher sees their students like their own children, then this might allow a teacher to fire a gun to kill an attacker, but this is unlikely, even if a teacher loves their students, it has to be someone very close to the subject to work. And, even if we do put them through military training in order to allow them to fire, they could suffer PTSD in the long run, and we could be trading one type of trauma for another.

Because it would not do any good seeing as unless you want to train teachers to use them and phase out teachers lacking the ability or mentality. Hint: Thats a bad idea. In addition to that I have had many teachers I wouldn't trust with a butterknife much less a firearm.

Ryan Hughes:
-snip-

Ah I see, so the 85% figure was taken from people in the army prior to conditioning. I was a bit surprised because you said "85% of all people- likely more in the case of teachers" so I was wondering why teachers specifically would be unable to kill someone, but it makes sense that any civilian would be less likely to shoot than a soldier. Thanks for clearing that up!

Cryo84R:
Because the fix for gun violence is...more guns?

Perhaps not, but when a violent individual(s) with gun are/is already around, and the police are not going to be there in time to stop them killing as many people as they please, having some people in a position to fight back can save a lot of lives (emphasis on the word can, a few vigilante teachers can FUBAR the situation even more if things are handled badly).

Frankly, I'd suspect that simply announcing that teachers will have access to weapons, however tight the restrictions, would do more to defend the schools from this kind of attack far more than the actual weapons would. Schools are tempting targets for such individuals precisely because they are so woefully undefended.

However, I do not think this is a good idea in the end. First and foremost because of the teachers themselves. We cannot simply hand a gun to a random civilian and simply expect them to use it in defense of others, and we cannot reasonably take the time to train them in more than basic firearm use.

Oh joy, just get more guns.

It should be apparent from the start that this is not a good idea. I promise you, this is only going to make schools way more dangerous. Teachers are not soldiers. They'll probably hurt themselves more than anyone else. Not to mention that while I love and respect some teachers, they are not the best group to use weapons.

This might also the problem of making these kinds of shootings more common. Anyone who probably went through the school system know how careless teachers can sometimes be. Kids might just have easier access to firearms.

No really, this is a really bad idea.

I just don't like the idea of guns in a school. It would be even less safe. Guns aren't toys.

If more guns was the solution, America would be the safest place on this planet.

Because if my classes were anything to go by you'd have to climb over the mountain of spent casings to get in or out of the place.

If all teachers where excellent judges of character, upstanding citizens, and intelligent/practical about the US I wouldn't raise an objection to them having weapons in a class room. However aside from a gun safe where there is a combination and key are we really going to keep students from stealing the gun when a teacher leaves the room but forgets to lock the door. As much as I respect teachers they are humans and with that comes all the flaws including forgetfulness, anger, and idiocy.

The big difference between a teacher having a gun at home and school is at home those flaws more than likely only have an effect on a couple of people the teacher knows and themselves in school it's at least 30 students probably more a day.

Let me count the ways that it would be a terrilbe idea;

* Because kids are annoying as hell, and the last thing you want to do is give teachers the constant temptation to just shoot them in the face.
* Because kids are going to try and get the gun, and schools in the US can barely afford to operate as they do now, let alone install gun safes. Inevitably kids are going to get their hands on the guns and then kids are going to die.
* Because teachers are trained to teach, not to shoot guns at living beings. So let's say the first teacher to get killed had a gun on them, they see the gunman and they freeze, because normal people are not suited for combat situations. So they get killed and the gunman gets another gun and some ammo for their rampage.
* Because it's just a stupid idea to combat gun violence with more guns as your first resort.

hell why stop there? why not just arm everyone. teachers, doctors, psychologists, nurses, firefighters, paramedics. what could possibly go wrong?

It takes a certain kind of individual, or a well trained individual, to keep calm and keep their accuracy in circumstances like a school shooting. I've fired weapons before, I'm actually a good shot with a rifle. I am under no delusion that I could fire quickly and accurately in a situation as stressful as that.

To sum it up, even soldiers can panic when shit goes down, why wouldn't a civilian? Even a trained one.

You are weird; to say the least and the friendliest thing I can right here.

Diablo1099:

Young Kids: They want to play with the Teachers Gun, so they go into the teachers Drawer/Storage Locker (Because a Safe in every room would be a major strain on the school's Budget) and "Play" with it.
Don't say they the Teacher will lock it all the time, every time, because accidents do happen what with Teacher Work Loads and class sizes.

Teenagers: They want a gun for a number of reasons, so busting into the Teacher's Stash provides a reasonable easy (Compared to other methods like buying and Stealing from other places) means to acquire a gun.
Once again, Locks are a good idea if you use them, but accidents do happen.
And if the school has metalwork classes, then the tools are there to crack it, All it takes is a google search to figure out how to open it, They are a lot more resourceful then they seem.

Criminals/Gangs: Schools are easy to enter with almost Zero People at night, A rock though a window and your in.
They go from room to room, finding a safe or locker, crack it, boom, they have a gun, adding the massive number of guns on the streets.

And so on, Sure, everything here can be fixed by added security measures and the such, but at that point, the whole idea would be causing more problems then it would be solving.
School shootings are rare for the most part, but this will just make these kind of attacks far easier.
I might sound paranoid, but everything here has a chance of happening and that chance speaks volumes against this rather moronic policy.

If teachers were allowed to carry a firearm, I would almost guarantee that it would be required to be on the teacher's person at all times, eliminating nearly all risk of someone else getting a hold of it.

Additionally, a sensible policy would be one where the students do not know which teachers are carrying, or even which teachers are trained and able to carry.

For evidence of it working pretty well, take a look at Israel, where teachers and volunteers carry on school property constantly. I don't know of any mass shootings in recent history in that country.

I think that the lives saved from preventing a school shooting would greatly outnumber any lives lost from the occasional freak accident. Otherwise, you're basically putting fish in a barrel. There's a reason why mass murderers ALWAYS target "gun-free" zones: Because they know they'll have no one shooting back.

Eric/Dylan, from Columbine, were going to go after the school officer first, had that officer not been sick that day, since they knew that no one else in the school would be armed: Free kills with no resistance.

As somebody who works with children, my thought is: no. Absolutely not.

I see the logic but keeping guns in schools goes against just about every commonsense safety precaution I can think of. The statistical likelihood of a child getting their hands on the gun and injuring themselves/others is infinitely more likely than the likelihood of a spree killer rocking up to the school gates, and the teachers having fair warning of the situation, and the opportunity to retrieve and load the gun, and finally to use it.

The cynical part of me thinks: wow, this is what some pro-gun lobbyists actually believe. Any problem can be solved if you put enough guns into the equation, right? What about addressing the underlying problems first? Basically, the onus of care here is for gun owners to act responsibly and not go on a fuckin' rampage, not for elementary schools teachers to start bring a Glock into school alongside their chalk and paper-bag lunch.

chadachada123:
For evidence of it working pretty well, take a look at Israel, where teachers and volunteers carry on school property constantly. I don't know of any mass shootings in recent history in that country.

When I think "peaceful, demilitarised multicultural democracy" I'm afraid Israel isn't the first country that springs to mind. Armed teachers might be a good idea within the context of Israel but I don't think we can conclude that it would be a good idea everywhere else.

I'm all for control, but the proposal makes sense within context.

If you are going to keep firearms freely available anyway, then better even the odds.
The crazy men and the messed up teenagers already have access to guns at home. By comparison, you should be able to trust an average adult with one. Not as good as a cop, but the gym teach would have to do when there isn't a squad car nearby.

You cannot ever make schools safe again, because with firearms the perp with the initiative will always have a big advantage, but you can limit the body count, if there's a couple capable men nearby who can take out the gunman.

Practicly you wouldn't have firearms in every classroom and the weapons would be locked away more securely than in the average home. You'd still have the occasional incident, but no more than usual.

"Gunslinger" as part of the job description for elementary school teachers?

...hard to imagine a better symbol for a messed up society.

farson135:
First of all, do we really need 3 gun topics on the first page?

Teachers in certain areas of Thailand and Israel are encouraged to have guns. Teachers and students in a few states in the US (Utah, Washington, some colleges in Virginia and Colorado) and the Czech Republic can have firearms in college classrooms.

It also makes sense to me. If we allow people to carry all over our country then it is only logical that we allow them to carry in the place they are in 40 hours a week.

Ehm? You're not allowed to bring a weapon in to a school in Israel under any circumstances, teacher or not.
Israel has one of the strictest gun control policies in the World these days, civilians cannot own guns. People who require to carry guns as part of their job do not own the guns, and most of them have to return it at the end of the shift(police personnel included), heck unless its a border police patrol or something similar you have a higher chance of encountering an unarmed policeman in Israel than an armed one.
A friend of mine from the US was visiting just a couple of weeks ago, and i was pulled over for my usual monthly "speeding tax"(yes ticket :P) and he was quite in shock when i exited my car with out being told to do so, joked with the cop and did not got shot, tazed, or arrested in the process.
There is almost no way for a civilian to own guns in Israel, even hunting licenses have not been issued since the 80's, you can also not own a rifle of any sort even if you do some how get a carry permit.
The "Settlers" that you see with guns, are actually not the owner of the guns, the Israeli military issues those guns and they are not allowed to be taken off the perimeter of the settlement, they can also be taken away and they were taken away prior to every removal of a settlement.

Hammartroll:
I just glanced at an article (though I can't find it now) that said teachers in Thailand and some other country carry guns. It always seems like mass shootings happen in gun free zones, so it makes sense to me.

Of course we would need to train them which makes me think we would get the added bonus of sorting out the irresponsible teachers from the ones who are serious. As for kids getting their hands on the guns, just put them in a safe under the teacher's desk and have the teacher carry the key at all times.

To me it seems like a more reasonable preventative measure than just getting rid of all guns.

you know what's funny? Yesterday when we read the article about the mass shooting me and friends were already making jokes about the fact some people would claim the issue was a lack of guns... I know there is that saying which goes "You need to fight fire with fire" but come on.

And also, keys can be lost... and found by the wrong people.

This is HILARIOUS. No single country in the world would respond to gun violence with "Well clearly, there weren't enough guns!" but the USA.
I just KNEW some right wing American would bring this up.

Hammartroll:
I just glanced at an article (though I can't find it now) that said teachers in Thailand and some other country carry guns. It always seems like mass shootings happen in gun free zones, so it makes sense to me.

Of course we would need to train them which makes me think we would get the added bonus of sorting out the irresponsible teachers from the ones who are serious. As for kids getting their hands on the guns, just put them in a safe under the teacher's desk and have the teacher carry the key at all times.

To me it seems like a more reasonable preventative measure than just getting rid of all guns.

I predict that if that were to happen, there would be a lot more homeschooling going on.
If I had kids, I wouldn't want them to go to a school where the teachers could potentially go nuts one day (maybe because they had enough after 15 years of dealing with annoying kids, I had teachers who were on the verge of a mental breakdown) and kill them or even shoot them accidentally.
I think that many other parents would think the same thing so many kids would end up not going to schools, the school system's funding would decrease, making the standards of teaching even lower than they already are.

That's what I think would happen.

Plus, don't you have metal detectors in schools in the US?

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